Your association desired

[bgita67]

Gaudiya Vaisnavas and ofcourse Vaisnavas in general,

 

I am one of those people who tries to refute the "my god is supreme" argument by pointing to the Vedic verse 1:164:46 of the Rigveda sometimes, and as you all know by experience with many non-Vaisnavas, that is the verse which says that there is One Truth (ekam sat) which the sages or Brahmins in many ways explain, and it mentions the names of different gods. To some people this verse is saying that no one "face of God" is supreme and so therefore Vishnu, Shiva, Ganesha, and so on are all equally the same and that a person can attain the ultimate goal by being devoted to any god.

 

I think that what Rigveda 1:164:46 is really telling us is that there is indeed one truth which is understood by the sages in many ways, but it never says "and so therefore anyone can attain the ultimate goal by worshiping any god heard of."

 

According to the Bhagavad Gita, when a person worships any god (Indra, Agni, Ganesha, Shiva, etc), then they are indeed worshiping the Supreme Lord himself, but they do not know who he is himself (Krishna). The passage in the Bhagavad Gita which reveals this, from my point of view, is in harmony with what is written in Rigveda 1:164:46 but it reveals something very very important.

 

Based on these passages, I can conclude now that if you worship Krishna (the Supreme Lord, or the ekam sat) then at the same time you are worshiping all other gods (or rather, demigods). So that's why when a person receives food because of the demigods, then by offering the food to Krishna, the service is also rendered to the demigods who provided you with food.

 

A question of mine: are the demigods simply aspects of Krishna and/or expansions? I need some explanation on this from someone who knows.

 

By the way, I have been chanting Mahamantra for the past few days (always with pancha-tattva first), and reading Bhagavad Gita As It Is. My edition is the abridged 1968,1972 version where most of the translations and purports are the original writing of Srila Prabhupada. With my trusty pen, I have made notes near the changed parts.

 

Your association is greatly desired! Email me so that I can be in online association with you. My email addy is the same as my username here but the service provider is dot com.

 

Thanks.

[bija]

 

A question of mine: are the demigods simply aspects of Krishna and/or expansions? I need some explanation on this from someone who knows. by bgita67

This e-book may point you in the general direction - the Gaudiya philisophical perspective. Sorry I can't answer more directly your question, this is very profound and deep subject matter (in need of realization). I will highlight a section of interest in relation to what is Brahma.

 

 

 

Shri Bhagavatamrita Kanika - click here

A particle of Shri Bhagavatamrta

[The nectar of Shrimad Bhagavat]

Shri Visvanath Cakravarti Thakur

[brhad Bhagavatamrta is a work by Shri Sanatana Gosvami]

[Laghu Bhagavatamrta is a work by Shri Rupa Gosvami]

This short essay entitled A Particle of Shri Bhagavatamrta is by Shri Visvanath Cakravarti Thakur.

He Who has been ascertained in the pages of the book `Shrimad Bhagavatamrta' as the Supreme God, and Whose opulences (His unlimited and extraordinary supremacy being above comparison) and sweetness (possessing the intrinsic and enchanting feature of charming loveliness which totally captivates all others) are eternally existing, without any dependence whatsoever on any other divine personage, is none other than Shri Krishna Himself, the supremely independent Absolute Truth.

He Who has almost the same potencies as the self-same God (Shri Krishna) and Who is His plenary expansion, is exemplified in the person of Shri Narayan, the Lord of the spiritual sky [Vilas vigraha]. Those whose potencies are inferior to that possessed by the Supreme Personality of Godhead are His incarnated parts, like Matsya, Kurma, etc. [svansa - subjective portion].

Those living entities in whom the Lord's potencies of knowledge and superior activity have been infused, become known as avesa - specially empowered human beings. Examples include: Vyasadeva - empowered with the Lord's devotional prowess: Prthu Maharaja - endowed by the Supreme Lord with the ability to perform superhuman activities: & the Four Kumaras - endowed with superhuman intelligence.

Hereafter, there are three other categories of avatars, namely: purusavatar, gunavatar and lilavatar.

The purusavatars are further subdivided into first, second and third purusha incarnations. The first purusha is Karanarnavasayi, Who is the indwelling Soul of material nature, the Creator of the mahat-tattva (total material ingredients) and Who is a separated portion of Sankarsan, Who is situated in the spiritual sky. The second purusha is Garbhodasayi, the indwelling Soul of the total conscious aggregate, the Creator of Lord Brahma, and Who is the separated portion of Pradyumna, Who is situated in the spiritual sky. The third purusha is Ksirodasayi, the indwelling Soul of individual consciousness, the separated portion of Aniruddha, Who is situated in the spiritual sky.

Hereafter the gunavatars are being introduced.

By the action of the mode of goodness, the Master of the milk ocean, Shri Vishnu, maintains the universe. By the action of the mode of passion, the universe is created by Lord Brahma, who is generated from the lotus flower arisen from Garbhodasayi Vishnu's navel. In some kalpas, a jiva (living entity) who has amassed profuse piety takes the position of Lord Brahma and creates the universe. In this instance, due to the infusion of the Lord's potency in that jiva, he is referred to as an avesavatar. Because in that Brahma there is a connection with the mode of passion, he cannot be compared on a equal footing with Lord Vishnu. In those kalpas when there is an absence of any qualified jiva to take up the position of Lord Brahma, then Lord Vishnu Himself becomes Lord Brahma. Similarly, during some manvantaras, the incarnation of the Lord as Yagya has to take up the position of Lord Indra. During that manvantara when Yagya becomes Indra and during that kalpa when Vishnu becomes Brahma, then it can be said that they (Brahma and Indra) attain equality with Lord Vishnu.

The gross body of Brahma, consisting of the total material substance (the aggregate of the universal form of material nature, extending from Patala up to Satyaloka), is also known as Brahma. Hiranyagarbha, Who is manifested within that gross body as subtle living entities, is also known as Brahma. The indwelling soul therein, the second purusha, Garbhodasayi, is Iswar, the Supreme Controller. He Who is the destroyer, by the action of the mode of ignorance is Lord Siva. The indwelling purusha within the Universal Form as well as the subtle form of the Creator, Hiranyagarbha, Who is the super excellent controller born of the lotus flower, have both been referred to as Brahma. This Brahma also accepts the form of Siva for the purpose of destruction. During some kalpas very pious jivas attain this position whereas in others, Lord Vishnu Himself accepts the position of Lord Siva. However, the personality of Sadasiva, is a plenary portion (vilas-vigraha: as distinct from svamsa expansions which are endowed with a smaller degree of potency from the original Godhead) of the self-same form of the Supreme Lord, Shri Krishna, and He is transcendental to the three modes of material nature. It is from Him that the gunavatar of Siva is expanded. Therefore He should be understood to be superior to Brahma, equal to Lord Vishnu, and entirely separate from jivas, who are influenced by the material modes of nature.

The four Kumaras, Narada, Varaha, Matsya, Yajya, Nara-Narayan, Kapila, Datta, Hayagriva, Hamsa, Prsnigarbha, Rsabha, Prthu, Nrsimha, Kurma, Dhanvantari, Mohini, Vamana, Parasurama, Raghunath, Vyasa, Balabhadra, Krishna, Buddha, Kalki, etc., appear once in every kalpa (therefore They are also known as kalpavatars).

Thereafter are the manvantaravatars: Yajya, Vibhu, Satyasen, Hari, Vaikuntha, Ajit, Vamana, Sarvabhauma, Rsabha, Visvaksena, Dharmasetra, Sudama, Yogesvara and Brhadbhanu.

The yugavatars are as follows, beginning with Satya-yuga: Sveda, Rakta, Shyam and Krishna.

Amongst all of these avatars (kalpavatar, manvantaravatars and yugavatar) some are:

avesh - specifically empowered living entities.

prabhab - supreme, chief, main, principal, total (mastership).

vaibhab - divine power, opulence, Sivaship, Brahmaship, manifest

superior potencies compared to prabhav.

paravastha - these incarnations manifest even superior sakti.

Avesh - Catuhsan, Narada, Prthu, etc.

Prabhab - Mohini, Dhanvantari, Hamsa, Rsabha, Vyasa, Datta, Sveda, Etc.

Vaibhab - Matsya, Kurma, Nara-Narayana, Varaha, Hayagriva, Prsnigarbha,

Balabhadra, Yagya, Etc.

Paravastha - Nrsimha, Ram, Krishna.

These are successively graded in terms of superior sakti. Amongst these Shri Krishna is the Supreme Personality of Godhead Himself (Svayam Bhagavan) - no one is superior to Him.

Krishna has four abodes: 1) Braja 2) Madhupur 3 ) Dvaravati and 4) Golok. He is supra-supremely perfect in Braja (where He resides along with His family and Baladev). In Mathura He is supremely perfect and in Dvaraka, accompanied by His family members, Pradyumna, Aniruddha, etc., He is perfect.

[Note: Krishna Sandarbha 106 Shri Jiva Gosvamipada

Gokul (inner) and Svetadwip (outer) both taken together - Golok.

Brindaban - both prakat (manifested) and aprakat (unmanifested), whereas Golok lila is only aprakat (unmanifest to our vision).

In Goloka Shri Krishna is complete and His aims and desires are totally fulfilled. Goloka lila and Shri Brindaban lila are generically the same, therefore Goloka is also said to be of the same nature or kind as supra-supremely perfect. {In terms of measure and multifariousness, Shri Brindaban lila distinctly and predominantly expresses and manifests that supra-supreme perfectness to the highest possible degree.} Because the sweetness and beauty of Brindaban exceeds that of Mathura, (is manifest in greater degrees than in Mathura), and that of Mathura exceeds that of Dvaraka, for this reason opulence is also manifested in various degrees. These differences in opulence are directly related to the decreasing expression of sweetness and beauty in these graded realms. What this means is that because there is a decrease in sweetness and beauty from Brindaban to Mathura, therefore in Mathura there is a greater manifestation of opulence. Similarly due to a decrease in sweetness from Mathura to Dvaraka, there is a concomitant increase in the development of opulence in Dvaraka.

Tens and tens of millions of universes are generated from the pores of Maha-Vishnu, Who is lying in the Causal Ocean. Situated above the Viraja, which is likened unto a protective moat, is Maha-Vaikunthalok, the upper portion of which is Goloka. In that realm the performer of celestial pastimes, Shri Krishna, Who is the Lord of Goloka, is present with His family, friends and attendants. The Lord of the spiritual sky, Paramatma, is His plenary expansion (vilas-vises), and Brahman (Brahma) is His non-distinguishable, undifferentiated aspect. The second self of Shri Krishna, Lord of Goloka, is Baladeva, and the Sankarshan of Maha-Vaikuntha (the second expansion of Narayan) is His plenary expansion (vilas). Karanarnavasayi Maha-Vishnu is a separated portion of this Sankarshan. The indwelling Supersoul of the universe, Garbhodakasayi, is the plenary expansion of Karanarnavasayi, and a separated portion of Pradyumna (Who is the third expansion of the Lord of Vaikuntha [Narayan]). Ksirodakasayi is the plenary expansion (vilas) of Garbhodasayi. According to the variegatedness of Krishna's pastimes, His abodes of Dvaraka, Mathura and Brindaban also manifest varying degrees of sweetness and beauty.

His pastimes are of two kinds: manifest and unmanifest. The pastimes Shri Krishna performs with His family, friends and attendants which is everlastingly revealed but imperceptible in the world, wherein He simultaneously performs these eternal pastimes as a child, young boy and early youth, is called unmanifest pastimes. When these pastimes with His associates are gradually and successively revealed in the phenomenal world, then they are known as manifest pastimes.

Though there is going and coming from one dham to another, from Brindaban to Mathura, and from Mathura to Dvaraka, this is all within the manifest lila. This should be understood as a special characteristic of the manifest lila (in the unmanifest pastimes there is no departure or arrival of Krishna within His dhams, from one dham to another).

Beginning from His pastime of taking birth, up to His final pastime at Prabhas-ksetra (Mausal-lila), each and every one of His pastimes is observed by the inhabitants of the various universes, as these pastimes are revealed in all of the universes, one after another. Within each of the multitude of tens of millions of universes, there is a Bharat bhumi within which are located Brindaban, Mathura and Dvaraka, where the respective residents are graced with the vision of these pastimes. The manifestation of these pastimes within the different universes can be likened unto the manifestation of the sun's rays in different parts of the zodiac. When the sun is setting in one place, it is simultaneously rising somewhere else, and sometimes it cannot be seen at all from certain places. Similarly, though Krishna resides in His own abode, as His manifest pastimes are being concluded within one universe, within another universe they again become revealed, whereas in some universes they aren't revealed at all. As in the unmanifest pastimes, in the manifest pastimes also, His eternal lila, beginning with the childhood pastimes, is continuously revealed (as the water of a river is continually present though in a continuous state of movement), and this lila is full with eternality, knowledge and bliss.

The pastimes at Prabhas ksetra and those involving the stealing of the queens, however, are of the same nature as a magic spell and therefore totally false and a part of the realm of make-believe. These artificial pastimes should be understood as having been introduced for the purpose of keeping the perpetually, infinity and eternality of Krishna's lila a secret, when the time has come for the curtain to fall on the present act. These two pastimes cannot be counted as part of the genuine lila of the Lord due to the fact that neither pastime contains any worshipper.

During the manifested lila of the Lord, some amongst His associates are (according to His desire), able to perceive the essential quality of Brindaban, being composed of touchstone and jewels as it is , and some amongst them cannot. After His pastimes have been wound up, some devotees, as a result of their intense worship and eagerness, are blessed with the vision of Krishna's pastimes in the places where they were performed, even during the present time. The cause of this is Krishna's desire in fulfilling the desire of His devotee.

In this way, the superiority of the form of Shri Brajendranandan, amongst all of Krishna's expansions and incarnations, and the superiority of Shri Gokula, amongst all of His abodes or dhams, has been substantiated.

Prem-madhurya (the sweetness of love of Krishna and Krishna's love for Radha and His other devotees), Lila-madhurya (the sweetness of His pastimes), Benu-madhurya (the sweetness of His flute), and Shri Vigraha-madhurya (the sweetness of His bodily form) - these four pinnacles of sweetness and beauty are existent in Braja dham alone.

Hereafter are mentioned the Vaishnava devotees: Markendeya, Ambarish, Basu, Vyas, Vibhisana, Pundarik, Bali, Sambhu, Prahlad, Vidura, Uddhava, Dalbhya, Parasar, Bhisma, Narada, etc. It is a great offence not to worship all of these devotees as Shri Hari is worshipped. Amongst these devotees Prahlad is considered to be the best. The Pandavas are better than Prahlad, and some of the Yadavas are better than the Pandavas. Amongst the Yadavas, Uddhava is the best. The Braja gopis are better than Uddhav, and amongst them Shri Radha is the best of all.

For those who have not studied grammar but who are nevertheless very eager to perform devotional service to Krishna, (for all of these such persons) Bhagavatamrta Kanika has been composed as jewels are set in a golden ornament.

 

[Bishadi]

 

I am one of those people who tries to refute the "my god is supreme"

wisdom.

 

 

 

To some people this verse is saying that no one "face of God" is supreme and so therefore Vishnu, Shiva, Ganesha, and so on are all equally the same and that a person can attain the ultimate goal by being devoted to any god.

as God is all that exists, the flower (lotus) also shares the wisdom of God....

 

ever notice, when at peace you may have a real question and the answer comes from something as simple as the breeze upon your face.

 

God is all that exists; men/women put the words to God.

 

 

"and so therefore anyone can attain the ultimate goal by worshiping any god heard of."

because equality is born and choice is from the individuals experience. The honesty to know that, is when lessons become knowledge to appreciate

 

 

Based on these passages, I can conclude now that if you worship Krishna (the Supreme Lord, or the ekam sat) then at the same time you are worshiping all other gods (or rather, demigods).

as you can even learn from a car wreck.

 

God (Krisna in some sects) is transcendant, such that the lessons from one mans God, are also the lessons another man shared across the world. Could be spelled differently, defined differently but the same conscious experience.

 

This shares that if God is with mankind in all times, all countries and all things, then to combine the variety of God revelations of knowledge, then understanding God can be learned.

 

This identification of the equality of mankind is what allow the barriers to be broken down.

 

Seems you step right over them as if little ant hills. Peace to you

 

Be certain; to Love God and all that is 'his' equally in each moment; then you already know Him, all that is left is to know life and then be capable of living for Him, like Him, Forever ONE with HIM! (supporting life to continue; doing good, in all actions)

 

your association has given life to the words; find the desire fullfilled!

[bhaktajan]

The Family Tree of all the personalities of the Veda

As found in the Bhagavata-purana

There is an actual family tree described in approximately 563 Slokas.

These Slokas delineate the family lineages starting with Brahma [including all the Prajapatis, Manus, the Soma & the Surya Dynasties] up until the 11th Century C.E..

Approximately 2,500 names [including wives are listed]

Avataras and their family lineage is included too—which brings us to the Puranas and before that to the various Vedic Books that re-tell ancient events among the Devas in their youth.

In the Bhagavata-purana the family tree Starts with & proceeds as follows:

1) Brahma's Birth [155 Trillion B.C.] — Brahma's children — Brahma's Daughter-in-law & Son-in-laws — Brahma's grandchildren — Brahma's great-grandchildren

2) Brahma's first 50 years of his life have already passed —

3) Brahma's awakes afresh at the start of the Present Day (kalpa) — the first Manu (svayambhuva) is born — Kasyapa & his cousins re-populate the Universe (prajapatis)

4) The first to 6<SUP>th</SUP> Manus born, live and pass.

5) The 7<SUP>th</SUP> Manu is born

3) At the end of the 1<SUP>st</SUP> Maha-yuga of the 7<SUP>th</SUP> Manu— Mother Revati leaves to seek Husband (and 27 Maha-yuga later arrives to marry Balarama).

4) We are here now in the 28th Maha-yuga epoch [out of 71] of the present 7<SUP>th</SUP> Manu.

5) The family tree continues until the 11<SUP>th</SUP> Century CE.

The watch word for being given this data from Vyasadeva, IMO, is a matter of "Orientation" —as in finding our way in and around a forest and knowing where our cousins and Uncles homes are to be found.

.....................................................................................................................

 

Quote:

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>Originally Posted by bgita67

A question of mine: are the demigods simply aspects of Krishna and/or expansions? I need some explanation on this from someone who knows.

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

<!-- END TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote -->Bhaktajan's point in posting the above:

The reason for various seemingly contradictory statements in the Vedas, and also, in seemingly contradictory statements in the Puranas about pastimes of persons mentioned in different puranas etc is:

The events happened in vastly different epochs and vastly different places —attended by a few most famous personalities and also attended by mutitudes of Sadhus, rishis and celestial near-do-wells —therefore the re-counting of Vedic events of antiquity contain points-of-view from sources that witnessed the same events from different vantage points.

Also, the Demigods are prone to mistakes, bad-manners, momentary lapses of judgment, lust pursuits etc —so eventhough their behavior is exemplary it contains all the variety of Celestial Soap-Operas [novellas] that spring from the Human-condition [Demigod-condition].

Remember, Daksha, Durvasa and what to speak of Big-Big Asuras who made mistakes when they could have enjoyed the good life into their dotage years.

Why would Indra not recognize the advent of Vishnu's origin incarnate, ffice:smarttags" />

Because of supreme conceit. But the Devas are not self-hating soul killers —they live a polished life of opulence with their duties to perform for the good of all sentient beings and also for the maintenance of the physical structure of the cosmos.

Getting oriented,

Bhaktajan

 

[bhaktajan]

Originally Posted by bgita67

... To some people this verse is saying that no one "face of God" is supreme ...

.........................................................................................

So? There is no supreme! OK? Face it your studies lead you to the same conclusion that atheists also uphold.

 

Face it! Sastra says:

If you can imagine the face of God --then you are unable to 'imagine the face of God ' --try to and you will falsely see only your own concoction or imagnation.

 

It is like not knowing who your real father is--yes, you can image; And yes, some have mothers bereft of intelligence; but many have the legacy of good karma that allots them the knowledge to know perfectly well who there real father is etc etc etc.

 

Your sastra dis-allows you to speculate!

Your speculation cannot allow the face of God to be manifest--how then did all living beings pass the eons of time during the epoch when Krishna was hidden from view?

 

Q: How did all living beings pass the time?

Ans: Eating, sleeping, mating and defending --all in an infinitely short flash of time, over and over.

 

Each proceeding birth having the benefit of

some previous life-lesson etched into

one's instinct until the supremacy of

personal human rights are assimulated into

civilized culture-- wherever such weeds

could be cultivated into gardens--

each birth allows time to reconcile

the meaning of life [on a personal 'person-by-person basis'].

 

That is called personalism (vs. self-loathing & ironically selfish {and soul-killing} 'Impersonalism')]

[bgita67]

Bija

Thank you for the material.

 

Bhaktajan

I am not sure what exactly you are saying but I am quickly moving away from impersonalism. Reading and chanting is making me into more of a believer.

[bija]

 

Reading and chanting is making me into more of a believer.

bgita67, there is one lady in town here, a born-again christian. She has always been very strong in pointing out that fact to me, as she sees my faith as inconsistent with hers.

 

She struggles a bit in life, and yesterday asked me to sit with her, listen, and share. I asked her if she thinks her God is a person, if she thinks upon going home she will associate with a person?

 

Her response was 'oh yes, very personal relationship. Just like sitting here with you now'.

 

So I asked, 'not just a light?'. 'No' was her response.

 

So then I said to her, 'When you sing Jesus's Name, you can reflect on his form, qualities, and pastimes...and prepare to enter them.'

 

She looked with a knowing and confirmation of spirit. Little did she know I was sharing a secret of Vedanta-sutra with her. Her eyes lit up, and I could see she longed to live in that place with her Lord.

 

I would question, why we place our total selves to one Lord (that attracts our heart). It surely must be love, intuitively known - even before we realize (in the unchanging soul which is), even while in this world. The direction must surely be moving toward that, which is fully satisfying to our soul (and fructifying).

 

Not all souls will move toward Krsna Goloka...some may find total satisfaction in Navadwipa Goloka Dham. We can have two bodies as Gaudiya's in both Dham's. Or just one.

 

In the Gaudiya philosophy there are unlimited Vaikuntha planets, and even though we sing the praises of our Lord Sri GaurangaKrsna, we know that the truth of Vedanta accomodates all. Even the effulgence of Vaikuntha - impersonal light exists as eternal. We only speak very strongly against those who say God's body is material and temporary. We say they are atheistic (denying spiritual form), extracting their knowledge from maya (mayavada). Attracting people away (being demonically motivated), from that which may be inherent to their soul, blinding them. If someone finds satisfaction in santa-rasa (in the impersonal peace), that is available too. Om shanti!

 

y.s.

[bija]

For writings on the soul journey, of one attracted to rasa-raja Sri Krsna:

 

Sri Brihad Bhagavatamrta by Sanatana Goswami - click here

 

and Sri Krsna Samhita by Srila Bhaktivinoda - click here

 

The Gaudiya claims the abode of Sri Krsna is the centre of Vaikuntha, because of the amount of madhurya (sweetness), the axis of all things you might say. Those with limited vision, and who do not understand the inconceivable nature of God, see gradation (and have conflict within themselves). Gradation is only explained by the acaraya's to describe madhurya. Those who are firmly situated in various vaikuntha planets never feel inadequacy, but instead fullest satisfaction.

 

Where our heart leads us, there we will find our fullest satisfaction. As sadhaka's and seekers we are searching out the soul depth, intuitively following.

 

It is inconceivable to grasp within our minds, the full nature of variety and oneness (intuitively we know). I cannot describe what I am seeing in my heart bgita67...I hope you can glimpse a little of what I am trying to share and paint.

 

Those who argue over one God and another, are still seeing only the relative material plane (the plane of inner conflict). God in total is something much more profound. Lord Caitanya called that acintya (inconceivable). Truly wonderful.

 

Non-dual truth!!!