How Vishnu was born

[yagna_narayana]

Dear all religious friends,

 

I have a doubt if any one can answer me? Sorry. I am new to this Forum and I haven't read many discussions in past. May be my thread is a repetition of past ones. Still, I request answers.

 

Coming to my doubt, if Brahma , who is the creator of all living beings, was born from "Navel" of Vishnu ( who is Padma nabha ), then who did create Shiva ,Vishnu and their Wives?

 

 

 

"Anantha koti brahmanda nayaka Rajadhi Raja yogi Raja Para Brahma Sri Sachidananda Sadguru Sai nath Mahraj ki Jai."

[suchandra]

 

Dear all religious friends,

 

I have a doubt if any one can answer me? Sorry. I am new to this Forum and I haven't read many discussions in past. May be my thread is a repetition of past ones. Still, I request answers.

 

Coming to my doubt, if Brahma , who is the creator of all living beings, was born from "Navel" of Vishnu ( who is Padma nabha ), then who did create Shiva ,Vishnu and their Wives?

 

 

 

"Anantha koti brahmanda nayaka Rajadhi Raja yogi Raja Para Brahma Sri Sachidananda Sadguru Sai nath Mahraj ki Jai."

 

The Vedas say, Visnu wasnt born, from Visnu, Brahma is born and in Maha Upanisad it is said that Lord Shiva was born from the forehead of the Supreme Lord. Thus the Vedas say that is the Supreme Lord, the Creator of Brahma and Shiva, who is to be worshiped.

 

Narayanah paro devas, Tasmaj jatas caturmukhah

Tasmad rudro ‘bhavad devah, Sa ca sarva-jnatam gath

 

“Narayan/Visnu is the Supreme Personality of Godhead and from him Brahma was born, from whom Shiva was born”

[Guest]

The Bhagvat describes this clearly. From Vairaj Purushs naval is born Brahma.From His forhead comes Shiv and from His heart comes Vishnu.

 

All the devtas tried waking up Vairaj Purush. even Vishnu tried but He lay dormant. But when Supreme Godhead Purshottam Narayan who is two armed, entered His heart, the aum naad was heard and Vairaj Purush awoke.

[Saraba Iyar]

 

The Vedas say, Visnu wasnt born, from Visnu, Brahma is born and in Maha Upanisad it is said that Lord Shiva was born from the forehead of the Supreme Lord. Thus the Vedas say that is the Supreme Lord, the Creator of Brahma and Shiva, who is to be worshiped.

 

Narayanah paro devas, Tasmaj jatas caturmukhah

Tasmad rudro ‘bhavad devah, Sa ca sarva-jnatam gath

 

“Narayan/Visnu is the Supreme Personality of Godhead and from him Brahma was born, from whom Shiva was born”

 

This is false information. Vedas do not say ant thing like that. In fact Vishnu is not a vedic god at all. Veda Recognises only thirty three gods and Vishnu is not there in the vlist. There is a name Vishnu mentioned but that is actually tone of the twelve names of Aditya Sun god.

 

I have posted this information before but people dont seems to accept the truth and continue to probagate false views about veda. I have no problem with Vishnu bhaktas but I have problem with perverting of the truth of Prinstine Vedas.

 

Saraba Iyar

[MikeMalaysia]

 

This is false information. Vedas do not say ant thing like that. In fact Vishnu is not a vedic god at all. Veda Recognises only thirty three gods and Vishnu is not there in the vlist. There is a name Vishnu mentioned but that is actually tone of the twelve names of Aditya Sun god.

 

I have posted this information before but people dont seems to accept the truth and continue to probagate false views about veda. I have no problem with Vishnu bhaktas but I have problem with perverting of the truth of Prinstine Vedas.

 

Saraba Iyar

 

There are many references to Lord Vishnu in the Vedas, but for this age, the recommended Scriptures are Bhagavad-Gita and Srimad-Bhagavatam, both of which attest the superiority of Lord Krishna.

 

dādhāra dakṣamuttamamaharvidaṃ vrajaṃ ca viṣṇuḥ sakhivānaporṇute

"Viṣṇu hath power supreme and might that finds the day" (Rig Veda 1:156:4)

 

oṃ tad viṣṇoḥ paramam padam sadā paśyanti sūrayaḥ

"All the suras (i.e., the devas) look always toward the feet of Lord Vishnu." (Rig Veda, 1:22:20)

 

agnirvai devanamavamo vishnuh paramah tadantara sarva devatah

"Agni is the lowest and Vishnu is the highest among devas. All other gods occupy positions that are in between." (Aitareya Brahmana 1.1.1)

 

"Then we shall expound the Mahopanishad. They say Narayana was alone. There were not Brahma, Shiva, Waters, Fire and Soma, Heaven and Earth, Stars, Sun and Moon. He could not be happy" (Maha Upanishad: I-1-4)

 

"Narayana desired to create people. Because of this thought, Soul (prana) rose from him. Mind and all body parts, sky, air, light, water and the earth which can carry all these created beings took their form. From Narayana, Brahma was born. From Narayana, Rudra (Shiva) was born. From Narayana, Indra was born .From Narayana those people who rule these human beings were born. From Narayana, the twelve suns, eleven Rudras, Eight Vasus and all those meters (for writing) were born. All these function because of Narayana. All these end in Narayana. Thus is read, the Upanishads of Rig Veda." (Narayana Upanishad)

 

tam isvaranam paramam mahesvaramtam daivatanam paramam ca daivatampatim patinam paramam parastadvidama devam bhuvanesam idyam

 

"You are the Lord of all other controllers such as Brahma and Siva. You are the Lord of all the devatas such as Indra. You are the Lord of all the prajapatis. You are superior to the supreme. We know you as the ultimate object of all prayers and eulogies; the Supreme Personality who is keen on performing wonderful pastimes" (Svetasvatara Upanisad 6.7)

 

We see from these references that Narayana is also a name for Lord Vishnu, and that He is the Supreme Being.

 

In the Brahma-Samhita, we read:

 

isvarah paramah krsnah sac-cid-ananda-vigrahah

anadir adir govindah sarva-karana-karanam

 

"Krishna who is known as Govinda is the Supreme Godhead. He has an eternal

blissful spiritual body. He is the origin of all. He has no other origin and He

is the prime cause of all causes." (Brahma-Samhita 5:1)

 

evam jyotir-mayo devah sad-anandah parat parah

atmaramasya tasyasti prakrtya na samagamah

 

"The Lord of Gokula [Krishna] is the transcendental Supreme Godhead, the own Self of eternal ecstasies. He is the superior of all superiors and is busily engaged in the enjoyments of the transcendental realm and has no association with His mundane potency." (Brahma-Samhita 5:6)

 

vamangad asrjad visnum daksinangat prajapatim

jyotir-linga-mayam sambhum kurca-desad avasrjat

"Maha-Visnu created Visnu from His left limb, Brahma, the first

progenitor of beings, from His right limb and, from the space between His two

eyebrows, Sambhu, the divine masculine manifested halo." (Brahma-Samhita 5:15)

[suchandra]

 

There are many references to Lord Vishnu in the Vedas, but for this age, the recommended Scriptures are Bhagavad-Gita and Srimad-Bhagavatam, both of which attest the superiority of Lord Krishna.

 

dādhāra dakṣamuttamamaharvidaṃ vrajaṃ ca viṣṇuḥ sakhivānaporṇute

"Viṣṇu hath power supreme and might that finds the day" (Rig Veda 1:156:4)

 

oṃ tad viṣṇoḥ paramam padam sadā paśyanti sūrayaḥ

"All the suras (i.e., the devas) look always toward the feet of Lord Vishnu." (Rig Veda, 1:22:20)

 

agnirvai devanamavamo vishnuh paramah tadantara sarva devatah

"Agni is the lowest and Vishnu is the highest among devas. All other gods occupy positions that are in between." (Aitareya Brahmana 1.1.1)

 

"Then we shall expound the Mahopanishad. They say Narayana was alone. There were not Brahma, Shiva, Waters, Fire and Soma, Heaven and Earth, Stars, Sun and Moon. He could not be happy" (Maha Upanishad: I-1-4)

 

"Narayana desired to create people. Because of this thought, Soul (prana) rose from him. Mind and all body parts, sky, air, light, water and the earth which can carry all these created beings took their form. From Narayana, Brahma was born. From Narayana, Rudra (Shiva) was born. From Narayana, Indra was born .From Narayana those people who rule these human beings were born. From Narayana, the twelve suns, eleven Rudras, Eight Vasus and all those meters (for writing) were born. All these function because of Narayana. All these end in Narayana. Thus is read, the Upanishads of Rig Veda." (Narayana Upanishad)

 

tam isvaranam paramam mahesvaramtam daivatanam paramam ca daivatampatim patinam paramam parastadvidama devam bhuvanesam idyam

 

"You are the Lord of all other controllers such as Brahma and Siva. You are the Lord of all the devatas such as Indra. You are the Lord of all the prajapatis. You are superior to the supreme. We know you as the ultimate object of all prayers and eulogies; the Supreme Personality who is keen on performing wonderful pastimes" (Svetasvatara Upanisad 6.7)

 

We see from these references that Narayana is also a name for Lord Vishnu, and that He is the Supreme Being.

 

In the Brahma-Samhita, we read:

 

isvarah paramah krsnah sac-cid-ananda-vigrahah

anadir adir govindah sarva-karana-karanam

 

"Krishna who is known as Govinda is the Supreme Godhead. He has an eternal

blissful spiritual body. He is the origin of all. He has no other origin and He

is the prime cause of all causes." (Brahma-Samhita 5:1)

 

evam jyotir-mayo devah sad-anandah parat parah

atmaramasya tasyasti prakrtya na samagamah

 

"The Lord of Gokula [Krishna] is the transcendental Supreme Godhead, the own Self of eternal ecstasies. He is the superior of all superiors and is busily engaged in the enjoyments of the transcendental realm and has no association with His mundane potency." (Brahma-Samhita 5:6)

 

vamangad asrjad visnum daksinangat prajapatim

jyotir-linga-mayam sambhum kurca-desad avasrjat

"Maha-Visnu created Visnu from His left limb, Brahma, the first

progenitor of beings, from His right limb and, from the space between His two

eyebrows, Sambhu, the divine masculine manifested halo." (Brahma-Samhita 5:15)

Thanks MikeMalaysia, great post! When reading your post it came to mind that although the internet is fast, computers are fast, to write a post with so many quotes takes time.

 

And this might be the reason why more and more people avoid internet forums. They have been duped by the present Zeitgeist, everything goes so speedily that there's no more time to write a post.

 

Hopefully people will realize how this is a negative development and that so many readers take great profit when someone takes the time to write a post with all the important quotes like above, thanks MikeMalaysia!

[Saraba Iyar]

 

There are many references to Lord Vishnu in the Vedas, but for this age, the recommended Scriptures are Bhagavad-Gita and Srimad-Bhagavatam, both of which attest the superiority of Lord Krishna.

 

 

I am pained to see people are misrepresenting Veda.

I have posted this material before; else where I will agai post it with the hope to clear the muisconception of “Vedic Gods”.

I belong to the family of Hotr priests of Rg Veda. My father and my elder breather are Hotr priests. I am trained in Rg Veda in the traditional style of reciting entire Rg Veda. I know each and every line of Rg Veda by heart. I am also trained in the Bhashya – traditional interpretation - of the Vedas. Though I am trained to be competent to become a Hotr priest, I did not become a priest. My elder brother became a Hotr priest. (I am introducing myself to make a point I know what I am talking about. i dont talk things which I am not sure of. )

In Vedic system, Hotr priest is the priest of Rg Veda and the only one qualified to invoke devas as only Rg mantras are meant for invoking devatas. . Yajur Vedic mantras are meant for giving offerings to the devas invoked by Rg Veda and Sama Veda mantras are meant for singing the praise of the gods invoked by Rg veda mantras. Thus as to the matter of gods are concerned, Rig Veda is the complete and final authority, since other Vedas perform a supplementary role to Rg Veda. No other gods that is not mentioned in Rg Veda could be invoked.

There are only thirty three gods in rig Veda. There cannot be more because the number 33 is sacrosanct and has a tight logic. Divinities in Vedic system have esoteric connotation to the consonants of the Sanskrit alphabets. Gods are those letters. And there are only 33 consonants in Vedic Sanskrit. (From ‘Ka’ to ‘Ha’ are 33).

“Te Trayastrimsadakshare Bhavath. Tryastrimsadhuo devah.” – Aitreya brahmana (1, 10)

This tight association between devas and letters makes the gods limited to 33 and there cannot any more. Hence any additional gods mentioned in other later Vedas or Puranas (there are 33crores of gods in puranas) are to be understood as names or aspects of the original 33. If this is not the case those new gods cannot be technically invoked, from Vedic point of view. Hence there are only 33 gods in Vedas.

And Who are these 33 Vedic Gods ? Asta Vasu (8), Ekladasa Rudra (11), Duadasa Aditya (12). Prajapati , Vasad or sometime Indra. And their names are given below.

Eight Vasus: Agni, Jadaveda, Sahoja, Ajara, Vaisvanara, Naryapa, Panktiradha and Visarpi.

Leven Rudras: Prabhrajamana, Vyavadata, Vasuki, Rajata, Parusha, Syama, Kapila, Atilohita, Urdhva, Avapatanta And Vaidyuta.

The twelve Sun gods: Twastr, Savitr, Bhaga, Surya, Pushan, Vishnu, Vaisvanara, Varuna, Kesi, Vrshakapi, Yama, Aja-Ekapat.

These are the Vedic gods. Note that Vishnu is just one of the names of Sun god in Vedic system. Most of our present modern day Hindu gods are not at all Vedic. We have denigrated many of these Vedic gods and promoted new gods. What is atrocious is that peple justify their very non-Vedic gods as Original Vedic gods.

As a Hindu, I have no problem in recognizing these new gods and even worshipping them. But what Pains me is the ignorant and even purposeful distortion of the Vedic religion to justify the new entities and practices. There is no need to argue that Vishnu is a Vedic god. Nothing is lost if Vaishnavas Accept that Vishnu is of Puranic origin. Is Behaved Geeta not is good enough? Why bring in Veda for support of a new religion?

I hope people will stop talking about Vedas, with out a first hand study of it and use it incorrectly for supporting their wrong views. I have seen it repetedly in this Aurarya discussion groups, at many occasions in different places.I am writing this not with any animosity with Vaishnava religion or any other ( Puranic or modern) Hindu religious faction for that matter. It pains to see that Veda is not represented properly and is misused by Hindus themselves. I request humbly that care should be taken to represent Vedic System accurately and truthfully.

Saraba Iyar

[MikeMalaysia]

Look at the quotes again that I provided, especially the ones with Narayana in them. The Upanishads are part of the Vedas and are classified as Shruti.

 

The goal of the Vedas is to come to knowledge of the Absolute Truth, which is Lord Krishna. Lord Krishna states "I am seated in everyone's heart, and from Me come rememberance, knowledge and forgetfulness. By all the Vedas, I am to be known. Indeed, I am the compiler of Vedanta, and I am the knower of the Vedas" (Bhagavad-Gita 15:15). Lord Krishna also says "I am also the Ṛg, the Sāma and the Yajur Vedas." (Bhagavad-Gita 9:17)

 

However, the Vedas were intended for earlier ages and not for the Kali Yuga. The Scriptures for this particular age are the Kali Santarana Upanishad, the Bhagavad-Gita and the Srimad-Bhagavatam. There are certain factors that make it practically impossible to study the Vedas in this age:

 

After Srila Vyasadeva divided the Vedas into four books (Rig, Yajur, Sama and Atharva), his disciples further divided them into 1,130 divisions. This is stated in the Kurma Purana (52.19-20):

eka-vimsati-bhedena rg-vedam krtavan pura

sakhanam satenaiva yajur-vedam athakarot

 

sama-vedam sahasrena sakhanam prabibheda sah

atharvanam atho vedam bibedha navakena tu

 

‘Previously the Rg Veda was divided into 21 sections, the Yajur Veda into 100 sections, the Sama Veda into 1,000 sections and the Atharva Veda into 9 divisions.’

 

Each division has 4 minor divisions, namely the Samhitas, Brahmanas, Aranyakas and Upanisads. Thus altogether the 4 Vedas contain 1,130 Samhitas, 1,130 Brahmanas, 1,130 Aranyakas, and 1,130 Upanisads. This makes a total of 4,520 divisions.

 

At present, most of these texts have disappeared due to the influence of time. We can only find 11 Samhitas, 18 Brahmanas, 7 Aranyakas and 220 Upanisads which constitutes a mere 6% of the entire Vedic canon!

 

Even if the Vedas were complete in there entirety, in order to understand them one must first study the Vedangas which includes Siksa (the science of phonetics), Vyakarana (grammatical rules), Kalpa (ritualistic rules), Nirukta (obscure word meanings), Chanda (Metres for chanting Vedic hymns), and Jyotisa (astrology and astronomy).

Since the language of the Vedas is enshrouded in mysterious meanings, one must also be willing to sacrifice years of study in order to learn Vaidika (classical) Sanskrit. This entails primarily learning the basic grammar (which generally takes 12 years or so) and then memorising extra vocabulary in order to decipher the mystical language of the Vedas. 1

Apart from that, it is practically impossible for those born in the age of Kali (who are generally ‘mandah sumanda-matayo’) to memorise even the slightest thing. What to speak of the entire Vedas or even the 6% that still survives today! At present, amongst the brahmana communities in India, it is generally observed that vedadhyayana simply consists of memorising the text of one of the four Vedas ‘parrot-fashion’, but as we can see from above, there is much more to it than that. Therefore, we may conclude that although the Vedas are perfect sabda-pramana, it is impractical to become thoroughly conversant with the Vedas in this day and age in order to understand the Supreme. Hence the solution lies in the Puranas and the Itihasas. This is explained in the following verse -

 

 

bharata-vyapadesena hyamnayarthah pradarsitah

vedah pratisthah sarve sarve purane natra samsayah

 

"On the pretext of writing the Mahabharata, Vyasa explained the meaning of the Vedas. Certainly all the topics of the Vedas have been established in the Puranas." (Visnu Purana)

 

Furthermore, it is explained in the Mahabharata (Adi Parva 1.267) and Manu Samhita –

 

itihasa puranabhyam vedam samupabrmhayet

 

" One must complement one’s study of the Vedas with the Itihasas and the Puranas."

 

In the Prabhasa-khanda of the Skanda Purana (5.3.121-124) it is said –

 

veda-van niscalam manye puranartham dvijottamah

vedah pratisthitah sarve purane natra samsayah

 

bibhety-alpa-srutad vedo mam ayam calayisyati

itihasa-puranais tu niscalo’yam krtah purah

 

yan na drstam hi vedesu tad drstam smrtisu dvijah

ubhayor yan na drstam hi tat puranah pragiyate

yo veda caturo vedan sangopanisado dvijah

puranam naiva janati na ca sa syad vicaksana

 

" O best of the brahmanas, the meaning of the Puranas is unchanging just like that of the Vedas. The Vedas are all sheltered within the Puranas without a doubt. The Veda has a fear that unqualified people will read her and then distort her meaning. Thus, the significance of the Veda was fixed in the Puranas and Itihasas. That which is not found in the Vedas is found in the Smrti. That which is not found in the Smrti is to be found in the Puranas. Those who know even the Vedas and Upanisads are not learned if they do not know the Puranas."

 

The reason they are called ‘Puranas’ is because they make the Vedas complete (puranat puranam iti canyatra). This is not to suggest that the Vedas are incomplete. It simply means that the Puranas are explanatory supplements which aid one to understand the concise and ambiguous passages in the Vedas. If the Puranas complete the Vedas, it is only logical that they must be Vedic in nature.

 

The Atharva Veda states:

rcah samani chandamsi puranam yajusa saha

ucchistaj-jajnire sarve divi deva divi-sritah

 

"The Rg, Sama, Yajur and Atharva became manifest from the Lord, along with the Puranas and all the Devas residing in the heavens." (Atharva Veda 11.7.24)

[Visitor]

Good thread. I enjoy reading both points of view. I feel enthrilled when i read that there are people in this world in this current age with such great knowledge and background.

[ARJ]

 

The goal of the Vedas is to come to knowledge of the Absolute Truth, which is Lord Krishna.

it won't be easy for you to prove that Lord Krishna is mentioned in the real Vedas

Here's what the scriptures say about Mahadeva:

Fire is His head, the sun and moon His eyes, space His ears, the Vedas His speech, the wind His breath, the universe His heart. From His feet the Earth has originated. Verily, He is the inner Self of all beings.

Atharva Veda, Mundaka Upanishad 2.1.4. EH, 159-160

 

He is the God of forms infinite in whose glory all things are -- smaller than the smallest atom, and yet the Creator of all, ever living in the mystery of His creation. In the vision of this God of love there is everlasting peace. He is the Lord of all who, hidden in the heart of things, watches over the world of time. The Gods and seers of Brahman are one with Him, and when a man knows Him, he cuts the bonds of death.

Krishna Yajur Veda, Shvetashvatara Upanishad 4.14-15. UPM, 91-92

 

 

There the eye goes not, nor words, nor mind. We know not. We cannot understand how He can be explained. He is above the known, and He is above the unknown. Thus have we heard from the ancient sages who explained this truth to us.

Sama Veda, Kena Upanishad 1.3. UPM, 51

 

 

This atman is the Lord of all beings, the King of all beings. Just as the spokes are fixed in the hub and the rim of a chariot wheel, in the same way all these beings, all the Gods, all the worlds, all life breaths, all these selves, are fixed in the atman.

Shukla Yajur Veda, Brihadaranyaka Upanishad 2.5.15. VE, 716

 

 

He, the Self, is not this, not this. He is ungraspable, for He is not grasped. He is indestructible, for He cannot be destroyed,. He is unattached, for He does not cling to anything. He is unbound, He does not suffer, nor is He injured.

Shukla Yajur Veda, Brihadaranyaka Upanishad 4.5.15. VE, 421

 

 

To Rudra, Lord of sacrifice, of hymns and balmy medicines, we pray for joy and health and strength. He shines in splendor like the sun, refulgent as bright gold is He, the good, the best among the Gods.

Rig Veda 1.43.4-5, 64

 

 

Now, that golden Person who is seen within the sun has a golden beard and golden hair. He is exceedingly brilliant all, even to the fingernail tips. His eyes are even as a Kapyasa lotus flower. His name is high. He is raised high above all evils. Verily, he who knows this rises high above all evils.

Sama Veda, Chhandogya Upanishad 1.6.6-7. UPH, 183

 

 

The bodily form of the Almighty, being constituted of powers, is not comparable to ours. Most conspicuous is the absence of anava. His bodily form, having a head, etc., is composed of five mantras, corresponding each to the five activities -- Isha, Tat Purusha, Aghora, Vama and Aja.

Mrigendra Agama, Jnana Pada 3.A.8A-9A. MA, 119-20

 

 

 

To the strong Rudra bring we these, our songs of praise, to Him the Lord of heroes, He with braided hair, that it be well with our cattle and our men, that in this village all be healthy and well fed.

Rig Veda 1.114.1. RVG, VOL. 1, 161

 

 

Instill in us a wholesome, happy mind, with goodwill and understanding. Then shall we ever delight in your friendship like cows who gladly rejoice in meadows green. This is my joyful message.

Rig Veda 10.25.1. VE, 302

 

 

He is the never-created creator of all: He knows all. He is pure consciousness, the creator of time, all-powerful, all-knowing. He is the Lord of the soul and of nature and of the three conditions of nature. From Him comes the transmigration of life and liberation, bondage in time and freedom in eternity.

Krishna Yajur Veda, Shvetashvatara Upanishad 6.16. UPM, 96

 

 

All this universe is in the glory of God, of Siva, the God of love. The heads and faces of men are His own, and He is in the hearts of all.

Krishna Yajur Veda, Shvetashvatara Upanishad 3.11. UPM, 90

 

 

 

Unequalled, free from pain, subtle, all-pervading, unending, unchanging, incapable of decay, sovereign -- such is the essence of Siva, Lord of the summit of all paths.

Svayambhuva Agama 4.3. SA, 56

 

 

 

Many of the asurAs worship Lord shiva and get boons as observed in the purANAs. Whereas very few of them worship the other divines. Why is it so ? Why should the God show grace to asurAs ?

 

 

Lord shiva is the Supreme, Which does not have any parents Which never takes birth Which is all alone without association with any of the creatures or creations enjoying in the Self. God is the only one Who is dependable for anybody / anything to surrender to as It is the only perennial Being. Hence God is the Lord of all creatures (lives/souls). For this reason the Lord is hailed as pashupati (Lord of living beings). Whether it is devas or asuras or humans or other creatures all are pashus. That being the case how could the Lord be partial to one section of pashus and withdrawing the Grace for the other ? So anybody who worships the Lord sincerely could get blessed with Its Grace irrespective of the caste, creed, race, power, status and qualities.

 

 

It is in fact to be noted that Lord shiva is worshipped by the devas like viShNu, braHma, indra, by asuras like bANa, rAvaNa, tripura, sUrapadma, by humans like sha~Nkara bhagavatpAda, samban^dhar, appar, by other creatures like jaTAyu, sampAdi (eagles), vAli (monkey) and the list goes on and on. One finds in the purANas the variety of people of different backgrounds and qualities worship the Lord shiva. There are many histories of temples which talk of the cranes, bees, elephants, spiders, snakes worshipping the Lord and getting blessed. So the Lord as the Supreme blesses anyone who worships in sincere devotion. There is no discrimination on who the seeker is. The Lord is so merciful that He showers the boons one look for when there is a determination to seek Him. It is evident from the history of asura bANa who attained a great fame of his valor and got the place in the abode of Lord shiva all due to his determined worship of the Lord.

 

 

But..., if the receiver of the boons does not use them in proper way and misuses to disturb others, in the Lord defined system of this universe they get punished for the misdeeds. A closer analysis would show that the devas are the divine elements of nature that are essential for all of us to survive (like air, sun, fire etc). Very often asuras are the one who disturb the nature as evident from purANas. So when the asuras misuse the boons got to disturb the other lives they get punished as evident from the histories of hiraNya, rAvaNa and others. When the misuse goes beyond a point by the powerful forces so as to question the existence of the whole system, the Lord the One Who is essential for all the essentials, Who has devised this whole Universe, takes the action to restore normalcy for example like tripura dahana.

 

 

Lord shiva is the God of all. Like the mother He showers the grace for all the children, but the misusing children get punished. This Supreme Lord better than a mother does not withhold the grace, He is our beloved pashupati.

 

 

As the Primal Soul, God has a form, with arms and legs and a vast mind. In this perfection, called Parameshvara, He is creator of universes and ruler of all. A story tells of Siva as an infinite pillar of fire which Brahma and Vishnu cannot fathom.

[ARJ]

Indra, Agni and Soma are the Three Forms of Rudra (Shiva) in the Vedas.

Indra is Tamas (Darkness or inertia), and relates to the highest forms of Shiva. Agni is Rajas (Passion) and relates to the Fiery Quality of Tapas and Rajas, Passion. Soma represents the Truth and is Sattva-Guna.

These are also the Three Qualities of Brahman (Shiva) as:

Sat (Truth) or Indra

Chid (Consciousness) or Agni

Ananda (Bliss) or Soma.

The Three Forms of Shiva here, constitute his Three Heads. This is seen in the Three Heads of Agni, the Chid (Consciousness) form in Vedas or Rudragni (I.46.1). This later becomes Trimukeshvara (The triple-faced lord).

These Three Forms thus become apparent in the avatars or forms of Shiva, according to the modes.

Wrathful forms or avatars as Mahakala, Vajradhara, Bhairava, Rudra, Virabhadra, Pashupati, Aghora, Sarabheshvara etc. are the more Indra category, as the Supreme Form of Shiva that represents Tamas - but the Highest Tamas as Sat (Truth), that transcends all of Maya and goes beyond.

Sundara, Ushanas (Asuramaya), Vishnu (Sadashiva), Dakshinamurti, Shankara, Shambhu etc. represent the more Auspicious sides of Shiva, and form the Soma or Bliss Category. Often these forms of Shiva represent the Crown Chakra, Wisdom, Youth and Beauty of Lord Shiva. They are the more Sattva forms.

Yogeshvara, Skanda, Ganesha, Brahma, Yogeshvara, Goraksha etc. forms of Shiva represent the more Agni or Chid (Consciousness) forms of Shiva, as the Lord and Master who represents the Inherit Wisdom in Nature, and Control. It also incorporates the Quality of Rajas - but also the Control of Rajas, as in Tapas, and thus connects to Yoga and Wisdom forms. Brahma and Skanda are here also, as Fire and Rajas forms of Shiva - Qualities of Action. It is the Child of Shiva, Guru.

The Agni or Chid-form also relates to the decent of Consciousness of Shiva, and thus his Human-avatars, as Rishis or Seers, like Agastya, Vasishtha, Goraksha, Dattatreya, Shankara etc. as will be explained later. He is Shiva the Human/Godly Teacher, whereas Soma is the Celestial and Adhyatmic Teacher beyond Ritualism.

Soma or the Ananda, Sattva and Sahasrara form of Shiva is known as Sadashiva (Vishnu) or Parashiva in Agamic texts. He is the Supreme Source and origin of all, and thus personifies the Highest Abode of Shivasvarga (Shiva Heaven) in the Sahasrarapadma Chakra (Chakra with a Lotus of a thousand petals) or Soma Chakra.

These ideas of Parashiva (Soma), as the Supreme Source, are also found detailed in this aspect, as both a God and Chakra, meaning the same as Agamas in Rig Veda:

" [O Soma!]Father and generator of the gods, the skillful, the Pillar of the Heavens (ie. Linga), and supporter of Earth. Rishi and Illuminated Sage, greatest of people, apart and wise, Ushana (Shukracharya) in knowledge" (Rig Veda .IX.87.2-3)

"Father of sacred chants, Soma flows onwards, the Father of the Earth, Father of the Celestial region: Father of Agni,(Skanda) the creator of Surya,(Brahma) the Father who gave birth to Indra (Shiva) and Vishnu" (Rig Veda.IX.96.5)

Again, Soma here is Parashiva or Sadashiva, often identifies with Vishnu as a form of Shiva, the Primal Source of all Creation, Gods, Worlds and Beings. It is this highest abode that we seek top reach, and unite with Sundara Parashiva and his consort Lalita - both personifications of this Soma or Sahasrara region or Chakra - known as Satya Loka (Region of Truth) in both Vedic and Tantric texts alike.

The teacher of the Somavidya or Doctrine of the Vedic Soma-Wisdom that relates to that abode, is Rishi Dadhyak in the Vedas, who teaches through the Head of a Horse. This idea later became apparent in Agamic and Tantric texts, where he is the Horse-faced Hayagriva is the great Seer and Teacher of the Shrividya tradition of Lalita and Sundara to Sage Agastya.

Agastya himself, is actually Seer of the Love-Goddess Rati in Rig Veda, and also of the Goddess Rodasi - both who also relate to the Blissful Forms of the Goddess and Gods in later times which derived from Soma. Likewise, Sundara and Lalita are also called deities of love - Kameshvara and Kameshvari.

Soma is also the Shakti-form of Shiva as it relates to Maya and the Moon - the Ida Nadi on the Left of the Body. Yet, as the vigour of Indra, the powerful forms of Shiva, it is also Indra-Shiva's "Shakti", and thus Soma = Shakti in many respects, also.

As does the Vajra (Thunderbolt), which later changes to become Shiva's Trishula (Trident), Shakti-astra (Weapon of power) etc. and why Shiva is Shaktiman. Shakti is thus as much an integral part of Vedic forms of Shiva (as Indra) as it is in later times - which allows him to defeat the Demons through possession of it.

Agastya is a great Seer of the Indra form(s) of Shiva and the Maruts or Rudras (Yogis, Nathas and forms of Shiva in Human and Divine forms) in Rig Veda also, especially Mandala I. His brother, Vasishtha, is the Seer of the great Shaivite Mahamrityunjaya Mantra of Rudra (Rig Veda.VII.59.12) - often addressed to Shiva as Mahakala, who takes us beyond the snares of the God of Death and Creation, or the Mayaic (Illusionary) World, and helps us physically and psychologically transcend all.

Thus, the Rig Veda is the "Shiva Agama", which addresses Shiva's forms and characteristics in much simpler Yogic fashion, much like the Agamas and Tantras of later times, which also do, as opposed to the more Mythological Puranas and such texts. Thus, as in Tantra, in the Vedas also, does Shiva in his many forms as explained above, take on a more personal and intimate role, especially in Rig Veda.

Indra saves the Vedic Kings Yadu and Turvasha from the Flood in Rig Veda (VI.54.1), and as Agni-form (Chid), he is the Saviour, Mother and Father (VI.1.5) or Agni as the Deliverer across he Ocean (I.99.1). Agni is first of Angirasa Seers (I.31.5), the auspicious friend, which connects again to Shiva as the avatar. Here we see Agni-Shiva as the teacher who takes us beyond all miseries as the Guru. Indra form of Shiva is also called the friend of the Munis (VIII.17.14), to Indra the Cosmic Lord (Rig Veda.VIII.87.2, Rig Veda.II.22.1), and Indra the father or mother and who grants bliss (Rig Veda.VIII.87.11). These relate to the Powerful Form of Shiva as Ishvara, who has the Supreme Yogic Power to take us to the ‘Great Beyond’.

The Vedas are thus not texts about merely Nature-worship, but worship of Higher Cosmic Principles, of which the Natural Elements and Forces in Nature are themselves lower physical reflections of, in the realm of Maya, or Creation, as a mirror image.

Agni is our Inner Divine Friend and Remover of Woes; Indra is our Inner Warrior and Soma is our Inner Vigour and Wisdom. With these Three, we become the Paramatman (The Supreme Self) and transcend all dualities - become Shiva and live in the world, and be not part of it. Shiva or Indra is hence the Lord of Non-Dualism and Detachment.

The Vedas are thus texts of Spirit. Surya, Vayu, Varuna etc. all have higher Cosmic Meanings. Varuna for example is Lord of Primal Waters, and connects to the Demiurge and Cosmic Serpent, which lies in Svadishthana Chakra in the lower body. Vayu is the higher Cosmic Prana or Breath of Life, and also Yogic Forces of Vayus, and Surya is the Brahman-principle as the Inner-Sun which is the Soul or Atman, the Light-form of Shiva as Ishana that becomes all and pervades all of nature as Vaishwanara or Narayana.

Vedic names for Gods also have higher meanings, often relating to Yogic Powers and Yoga. Gopati, "Cow Lord", a common term for forms of Shiv as Indra, Agni and Soma - also means "Lord of Lights", meaning Jivas or Souls, and also Lord of Sense-organs (Indriyas).

The Vedic Gods are all Yogic Lords, ever-willing to aid us in the control of Senses or Pranas and to transform our being. The Seven Gods, Pranas, Horses, Wheels on the Vedic Chariot etc., for example, are representative of our subtle pranic centres, known as Chakras (Wheels) or Padmas (Lotuses) - the Seven Suns or Sun-Gods, and as Rishis are Pranas, the Shaktis of the Chakras in later Tantric texts.

Shiva the Lord of Spirit and Transcendence then, pervades the Vedas, and is best represented by the Vedic Gods, of whom are his powers and forms that we identify with on a personal and cosmic level. As Rig Veda states, there is One Truth, but with many names (I.164.46; I.2) and, realising this, we become all the Seers and the Supreme, Realising our Unity with the God-born forefathers of yore, as Indra-Shiva himself (RV.IV.26.1).

In doing so, we begin to see the Primal Being as all-pervasive in the Cosmos (as in RV.I.89.1), as mother, father, son, heaven, earth and the five races (or five castes: brahmin, kshatriya, vaishya, shudra and chandala or outcaste). This is Shakti, which is the divine feminine form of Shiva himself in the form of Maya, which helps us to understand all people, cultures, beings, worlds and planets as essentially one family.

It is Shiva in his many forms who is the Lover (Mitra) and Friend (Sakha), Eternally Present for us. Seeing all Creation as him, we see that our lives and occurrences are his mere Lilas or Plays. Yet, with his aid, we can transcend these - the jobs of his expansions as the Vedic Gods.

This shows that Shiva is very much a Vedic God, and refutes the idea of him as a pre-Aryan and non-Vedic God. His other ‘Aryan’ or Indo-European counterparts, such as Bacchus in Rome, Cenunnos amongst the Celtic Druids and Dionysus amongst the Greeks, also shows the existence of a Supreme Non-Dualistic deity, that was rejected by the Judeo-Christian traditions as ‘Satan’.

His horns symbolised the crescent-moon, which were his symbol of immortality, the night and hence relating to the idea of tamas or transcendental darkness, beyond creation and the un-manifest reality. The Moon is also the symbol of Soma, and hence wisdom and immortal delights (amrita-ananda).

 

Verily, the path of Shiva, the auspicious one, is the noble (arya) path!

[bhaktajan]

Originally Posted by Saraba Iyar

I have problem with perverting of the truth of Prinstine Vedas.

 

...........................................................................

But you should perform your own dharma instead of advertising yourself as the source of Vedic Knowledge.

 

The line of your parampara is best kept in the family vault.

You do not know "who is who" --the word "who" refers to a person.

You are proud of your personal knowledge at the expense of the Family tree of Great Personages that desended from Brahma--as enumerated in a lost book of Hindu literatures called the Bhagavata-purana.

 

Maybe your paranmpara would be happier and content if we could erase all the Bhagavad-gitas from the shelves and memories of all Krishna's adherents?

 

be happy in your own dharma,

Bhaktajan

[MikeMalaysia]

 

Lord shiva is the Supreme, Which does not have any parents Which never takes birth

 

I'm sorry, but the Vedic Scriptures disagree with this statement.

 

"Then we shall expound the Mahopanishad. They say Narayana was alone. There were not Brahma, Shiva, Waters, Fire and Soma, Heaven and Earth, Stars, Sun and Moon. He could not be happy" (Maha Upanishad: I-1-4)

 

"Narayana desired to create people. Because of this thought, Soul (prana) rose from him. Mind and all body parts, sky, air, light, water and the earth which can carry all these created beings took their form. From Narayana, Brahma was born. From Narayana, Rudra (Shiva) was born. From Narayana, Indra was born .From Narayana those people who rule these human beings were born. From Narayana, the twelve suns, eleven Rudras, Eight Vasus and all those meters (for writing) were born. All these function because of Narayana. All these end in Narayana. Thus is read, the Upanishads of Rig Veda." (Narayana Upanishad)

[Saraba Iyar]

 

Originally Posted by Saraba Iyar

I have problem with perverting of the truth of Prinstine Vedas.

 

...........................................................................

But you should perform your own dharma instead of advertising yourself as the source of Vedic Knowledge.

 

That is what I am doing. My own dharma is, apart from performing the rictuals , to teach veda. Any one who has learned veda properly is ordained to teach it. It is ordained in veda. It is my darma.

 

It is also ordained in veda that no one with improper qualification should teach and interpret Veda. that is also Ordained in Veda.

 

As to my 'advertising' I should clarify I,am puting my cards straight. I am stating explicitly my credentials. I dont know what is your's. You are suppose to first state it before entering in to debate. It is required of any good debate culture.

 

The line of your parampara is best kept in the family vault.

You do not know "who is who" --the word "who" refers to a person.

You are proud of your personal knowledge at the expense of the Family tree of Great Personages that desended from Brahma--as enumerated in a lost book of Hindu literatures called the Bhagavata-purana.

 

I admit I dont know much of Puranas and I dont deal with it. And my suggestion to you all - Strick to your own family vault Puranas. Dont venture in to Vedas with out proper knowledge of it.

 

Maybe your paranmpara would be happier and content if we could erase all the Bhagavad-gitas from the shelves and memories of all Krishna's

adherents?

 

Fortunately I am not a fenetic like many of you. I dont want to erase any Puranas, and I am not a Krishna hater. But I will call a spade a spade.If ignorant or fenatac Vaishnavas misquote Vedas I will call of their bluf.

 

be happy in your own dharma,

 

That Advise applies to you too. Be happy with your chosen purana.

 

 

 

Saraba Iyar

[Saraba Iyar]

 

Look at the quotes again that I provided, especially the ones with Narayana in them.

 

I looked at it very carefully. In fact I am very familior with this Vaiosnavite's argument. The argument is falacious. Please do look at my post of 33 gods. There are no more gods in Vedas in a genune sense. There cannot be by the vedic cosmology and theology. Every name that appear latter has to be understood as attribute names of these thirty three deities - that is the rule.

 

Words Narayana , Vishnu, Vasudeva and the like refer to attributes of god- any god - and does not refer to a different god. Vasu deva means the god of the wealth (of the universe) . Narayana means Nara + Ayana = Water like in moving , that is in itself no form but taking all possible forms. All these are attributes of the devine and can be applied to any deities. For example you may be aware Ganesha is also addressed as Vishnu in his mantra 'Suklam Barataram Vishnum sasivarnam ..."

 

The word 'Narayana' is an attribute and not a separtate divinity apart from the 33 prime vadic gods. It is puranas that made independ gpod out of the attribute words. The word Narayana nowhere in Veda refer to a blue person with conch shell and wheel lying in a snake bed in a milk sea in a special place called Vaikunda. This Narayana you cannot find anywhere in Vedas. This is all in all a puranic concept. What can be found are a varieties of arrtibute names of the same 33 deities.

 

 

Saraba Iyar.

[Hiranyagarpa]

Dear Saraba Iyar,

Pranam . My high regard for a vedic priestly tradition of yours. To be a hotr priest is no joke. Some of the jokers in theis forum has no idea of what it means to be a hotr priest and vainly and arogantly argu with you on Vedic truth with out ever even reading Veda - forget of whether they understand veda or not.

My sincire advice to you an experienced man . Do not wast your time and the revered knowledge you possess with a group of fanatics who is never interested to learn the truth. You have provided authentic vedic information which I know to be correct as I did some research on the vedic priest traditions . All authentic vedic traditions in India universally have the same view.

You explained the vedic position well and clear. But dont wast your time in convincing fools and fanatics. Rather than learning from you the revered knowledge they will try to teach you and preach you. Leave them with their own fasle belief and fanatic doctrines to work out their own evil karma.

With high regards,

Hiranyagarpa.

[kimfelix]

An interesting debate here with merit on both sides. The crux of the debate seems to rest on these points.

 

1. The Rigveda hymns do certainly refer to Vishnu in the way that has been quoted and Vishnu is referred to as Aditya. Aditya can be understood either as the sun god or as the son of Aditi. Smriti texts embrace the latter understanding and so it seems not unreasonable for Vaishnavas to use quotations from the Rigveda. However, it must be taken in the Vedic context as the hymns also extol Indra, Varuna etc in a similar way. So it is certainly stretching a point to say that the Rigvedasamhita advocates Vaishnavism, at least as we know it today.

 

2. Mike Malaysia gives quotations from the Upanishads to support his position. However, the Maha Upanishad and Kali Santarana Upanishad are not amongst the major Upanishads usually accepted as a part of the shruti. There are an absolute maximum of 14 major Upanishads. The quotation from the Shvetashvatara Upanishad (6.7) contains a false translation, which is not a proper way to conduct a debate.

 

3. The Vaishnava position is referred to as 'Puranic' but Vaishnavism is certainly to be found within the Mahabharata, Ramayana and Bhagavad Gita, so this is not quite fair.

 

4. Where Puranas and the Mahabharata are cited, the problem is that different Puranas and different passages of the Mahabharata extol Vishnu and Shiva in almost equal measure as the one Supreme Deity. Where Vaishnavas cite the Bhagavata Purana or Brahma Samhita, Shaivas can refer to their own texts, agamas etc, with equal weight.

[CCC]

Who is the Supreme God of the Sruti?

[Visitor]

Well summed up by kimfelix

[A.Ravi sekhar]

Hi all,

Do you people know why we are celebrating Maha Shiva Rathri . Shivrathri

is started as the giving light to the cretures(gods or human beings ) who are in feeling that they are alone and first cretures of Universe .

 

Brahma and Vishnu quarreled with one another and in a feel that they are the supremes of Universe.At that time one white light(knowledge) generated and from some audibles of universe they listen that who find atleast one end of light can be supreme. Brahma started as hamsa for finding the top edge and vishnu started as Varaha and started digging the earth for finding the bottom edge of the light.No one succeded .

 

Vishnu realised that he is not supreme. But Brahma cheated and said that he found the top edge then Shiva(lord) came to them and he removed the

fifth head (feel of Ego) and given them highest positions of universe for creation and Preserving for both of them.

 

Could you please try to answer

God vishnu destroyed so many of the asuras.So can we give the name Destroyer for him.

No we cant as he is only preserver.

 

For preserving only Narayana is there.If any universal problem(high risk) happened then God shiva has to be there.

 

In "samudra madhana" also, all gods had their activity along with brahma and vishnu also referred as per vedas.But did shiva had any activity .Why not ?

 

He is the supreme(pashuapthi) and he describes the activity for any one in the universe and as they had risk with Poison he was there and solved the problem along with Godess.(Sri Neela Khanteshwar).

[gHari]

The AvatAras

 

Lord Caitanya continued to explain to SanAtana GosvAmI that the expansions of Lord KRSNa who come to the material creation are called avatAras, or incarnations. The word avatAra means "One who descends," and in this case the word specifically refers to one who descends from the spiritual sky. In the spiritual sky there are innumerable VaikuNTha planets, and from these planets the expansions of the Supreme Personality of Godhead come into this universe.

 

The first descent of the Supreme Personality of Godhead from the expansion of SaGkarSaNa is the puruSa incarnation, MahA-ViSNu. It is confirmed in SrImad-BhAgavatam (1.3.1) that when the Supreme Personality of Godhead descends as the first puruSa incarnation of the material creation, He immediately manifests sixteen elementary energies. Known as the MahA-ViSNu, He lies within the Causal Ocean, and it is He who is the original incarnation in the material world. He is the Lord of time, nature, cause and effect, mind, ego, the five elements, the three modes of nature, the senses and the universal form. Although He is master of all objects movable and immovable in the material world, He is totally independent.

 

The influence of material nature cannot reach beyond the VirajA, or Causal Ocean, as confirmed in SrImad-BhAgavatam (2.9.10). The modes of material nature (goodness, passion and ignorance), as well as material time, have no influence on the VaikuNTha planets. On those planets the liberated associates of KRSNa live eternally, and they are worshiped both by the demigods and the demons.

 

Material nature acts in two capacities as mAyA and pradhAna. MAyA is the direct cause, and pradhAna refers to the elements of the material manifestation. When the first puruSa-avatAra, MahA-ViSNu, glances over the material nature, material nature becomes agitated, and the puruSa-avatAra thus impregnates matter with living entities. Simply by the glance of the MahA-ViSNu, consciousness is created, and this consciousness is known as mahat-tattva, The predominating Deity of the mahat-tattva is VAsudeva. This created consciousness is then divided into three departmental activities according to the three guNas, or modes of material nature. Consciousness in the mode of goodness is described in the Eleventh Canto of SrImad-BhAgavatam. The predominating Deity of the mode of goodness is called Aniruddha. Consciousness in the mode of material passion produces intelligence, and the predominating Deity in this case is Pradyumna. He is the master of the senses. Consciousness in the mode of ignorance causes the production of ether, the sky and the sense of hearing. The cosmic manifestation is a combination of all these modes, and in this way innumerable universes are created. No one can count the number of universes.

 

These innumerable universes are produced from the pores of the MahA-ViSNu's body. As innumerable particles of dust pass through the tiny holes in a screen, similarly from the pores of the MahA-ViSNu's body innumerable universes emanate. As He breathes out, innumerable universes are produced, and as He inhales, they are annihilated. All of the energies of the MahA-ViSNu are spiritual, and they have nothing to do with the material energy. In Brahma-saMhitA (5.48) it is stated that the predominating deity of each universe, BrahmA, lives only during one breath of the MahA-ViSNu. Thus MahA-ViSNu is the original Supersoul of all the universes and the master of all universes as well.

 

The second ViSNu incarnation, the GarbhodakazAyI ViSNu, enters each and every universe, spreads water from His body, and lies down on that water. From His navel, the stem of a lotus flower grows, and on that lotus flower the first creature, BrahmA, is born. Within the stem of that lotus flower are fourteen divisions of planetary systems, which are created by BrahmA. Within each universe the Lord is present as the GarbhodakazAyI ViSNu, and He maintains each universe and tends to its needs. Although He is within each material universe, the influence of material energy cannot touch Him. When it is required, this very same ViSNu takes the form of Lord Siva and annihilates the cosmic creation. The three secondary incarnations--BrahmA, ViSNu and Siva--are the predominating deities of the three modes of material nature. The master of the universe, however, is the GarbhodakazAyI ViSNu, who is worshiped as the HiraNyagarbha Supersoul. The Vedic hymns describe Him as having thousands of heads. Although He is within the material nature, He is not touched by it.

 

The third incarnation of ViSNu, KSIrodakazAyI ViSNu, is also an incarnation of the mode of goodness. He is also the Supersoul of all living entities, and He resides on the ocean of milk within the universe. Thus Caitanya MahAprabhu described the puruSa-avatAras.

 

Lord Caitanya next described the lIlA-avatAras, or "pastime" avatAras, and of these the Lord points out that there is no limit. However, He describes some of them--for example, Matsya, KUrma, RaghunAtha, NRsiMha, VAmana and VarAha.

 

As far as the guNa-avatAras, or qualitative incarnations of ViSNu, are concerned, they are three--BrahmA, ViSNu and Siva. BrahmA is one of the living entities, but due to his devotional service he is very powerful. This primal living entity, master of the mode of material passion, is directly empowered by the GarbhodakazAyI ViSNu to create innumerable living entities. In Brahma-saMhitA (5.49) BrahmA is likened to valuable jewels influenced by the rays of the sun, and the sun is likened to the Supreme Lord GarbhodakazAyI ViSNu. If in some kalpa there is no suitable living entity capable of acting in BrahmA's capacity, GarbhodakazAyI ViSNu Himself manifests as BrahmA and acts accordingly.

 

Similarly, by expanding Himself as Lord Siva, the Supreme Lord is engaged when there is a need to annihilate the universe. Lord Siva, in association with mAyA, has many forms, which are generally numbered at eleven. Lord Siva is not one of the living entities; he is, more or less, KRSNa Himself. The example of milk and yogurt is often given in this regard--yogurt is a preparation of milk, but still yogurt cannot be used as milk. Similarly, Lord Siva is an expansion of KRSNa, but he cannot act as KRSNa, nor can we derive the spiritual restoration from Lord Siva that we derive from KRSNa. The essential difference is that Lord Siva has a connection with material nature, but ViSNu or Lord KRSNa has nothing to do with material nature. In SrImad-BhAgavatam (10.88.3) it is stated that Lord Siva is a combination of three kinds of transformed consciousness known as vaikArika, taijasa and tAmasa.

 

The ViSNu incarnation, although master of the modes of goodness within each universe, is in no way in touch with the influence of material nature. Although ViSNu is equal to KRSNa, KRSNa is the original source. ViSNu is a part, but KRSNa is the whole. This is the version given by Vedic literatures. In Brahma-saMhitA the example is given of an original candle which lights a second candle. Although both candles are of equal power, one is accepted as the original, and the other is said to be kindled from the original. The ViSNu expansion is like the second candle. He is as powerful as KRSNa, but the original ViSNu is KRSNa. BrahmA and Lord Siva are obedient servants of the Supreme Lord, and the Supreme Lord as ViSNu is an expansion of KRSNa.

[William Young]

 

The AvatAras

 

 

 

I am a scientist . I once happened to collect all the cosmologies and genisis myths of various cultures and religions of the world . There are many of them . (I am sure with in Hinduism itself you have many versions ). And each one differ in major way from every other. There is no consensus. Now which one is true? Your asserting that Bagavatam is true is of no use as every cultures say the same thing about their own version.

 

How do you resolve this issue? Any solution?

 

William Young

[Amlesh]

 

I am a scientist . I once happened to collect all the cosmologies and genisis myths of various cultures and religions of the world . There are many of them . (I am sure with in Hinduism itself you have many versions ). And each one differ in major way from every other. There is no consensus. Now which one is true? Your asserting that Bagavatam is true is of no use as every cultures say the same thing about their own version.

 

How do you resolve this issue? Any solution?

 

William Young

Modern scientist will always have questions with no definitive answers. But the world is in need of them.

Bhagvatam is the reconciliation of all other doctrine... it never counterlogify anything school of thought.

The problem of version others have because they are blinkered in their approach.

The blinkering factors are time, creed, sex, culture, desire et al... free yourself from them then you will see no contradictions in the so-called different thoughts.

[prvn2007]

 

I am pained to see people are misrepresenting Veda.

I have posted this material before; else where I will agai post it with the hope to clear the muisconception of “Vedic Gods”.

I belong to the family of Hotr priests of Rg Veda. My father and my elder breather are Hotr priests. I am trained in Rg Veda in the traditional style of reciting entire Rg Veda. I know each and every line of Rg Veda by heart. I am also trained in the Bhashya – traditional interpretation - of the Vedas. Though I am trained to be competent to become a Hotr priest, I did not become a priest. My elder brother became a Hotr priest. (I am introducing myself to make a point I know what I am talking about. i dont talk things which I am not sure of. )

In Vedic system, Hotr priest is the priest of Rg Veda and the only one qualified to invoke devas as only Rg mantras are meant for invoking devatas. . Yajur Vedic mantras are meant for giving offerings to the devas invoked by Rg Veda and Sama Veda mantras are meant for singing the praise of the gods invoked by Rg veda mantras. Thus as to the matter of gods are concerned, Rig Veda is the complete and final authority, since other Vedas perform a supplementary role to Rg Veda. No other gods that is not mentioned in Rg Veda could be invoked.

There are only thirty three gods in rig Veda. There cannot be more because the number 33 is sacrosanct and has a tight logic. Divinities in Vedic system have esoteric connotation to the consonants of the Sanskrit alphabets. Gods are those letters. And there are only 33 consonants in Vedic Sanskrit. (From ‘Ka’ to ‘Ha’ are 33).

“Te Trayastrimsadakshare Bhavath. Tryastrimsadhuo devah.” – Aitreya brahmana (1, 10)

This tight association between devas and letters makes the gods limited to 33 and there cannot any more. Hence any additional gods mentioned in other later Vedas or Puranas (there are 33crores of gods in puranas) are to be understood as names or aspects of the original 33. If this is not the case those new gods cannot be technically invoked, from Vedic point of view. Hence there are only 33 gods in Vedas.

And Who are these 33 Vedic Gods ? Asta Vasu (8), Ekladasa Rudra (11), Duadasa Aditya (12). Prajapati , Vasad or sometime Indra. And their names are given below.

Eight Vasus: Agni, Jadaveda, Sahoja, Ajara, Vaisvanara, Naryapa, Panktiradha and Visarpi.

Leven Rudras: Prabhrajamana, Vyavadata, Vasuki, Rajata, Parusha, Syama, Kapila, Atilohita, Urdhva, Avapatanta And Vaidyuta.

The twelve Sun gods: Twastr, Savitr, Bhaga, Surya, Pushan, Vishnu, Vaisvanara, Varuna, Kesi, Vrshakapi, Yama, Aja-Ekapat.

These are the Vedic gods. Note that Vishnu is just one of the names of Sun god in Vedic system. Most of our present modern day Hindu gods are not at all Vedic. We have denigrated many of these Vedic gods and promoted new gods. What is atrocious is that peple justify their very non-Vedic gods as Original Vedic gods.

As a Hindu, I have no problem in recognizing these new gods and even worshipping them. But what Pains me is the ignorant and even purposeful distortion of the Vedic religion to justify the new entities and practices. There is no need to argue that Vishnu is a Vedic god. Nothing is lost if Vaishnavas Accept that Vishnu is of Puranic origin. Is Behaved Geeta not is good enough? Why bring in Veda for support of a new religion?

I hope people will stop talking about Vedas, with out a first hand study of it and use it incorrectly for supporting their wrong views. I have seen it repetedly in this Aurarya discussion groups, at many occasions in different places.I am writing this not with any animosity with Vaishnava religion or any other ( Puranic or modern) Hindu religious faction for that matter. It pains to see that Veda is not represented properly and is misused by Hindus themselves. I request humbly that care should be taken to represent Vedic System accurately and truthfully.

Saraba Iyar

 

It is really sad that foolish people like Sarabh Iyar declare themselves as 'Hotr' priests, when it is clearly mentioned that 'Vishnu' is one among Adityas, i.e sons of Aditi, & as mentioned by him itself, as the one among twelve of the Sun gods, again he himself denies that Vishnu is not a vedic God contradicting himself stating he is not part of the elite 33. Does he mean 32 gods then ?

 

Moreover, Vishnu meaning all-pervading is the exclusive attribute of the 'Supreme Brahman' alone & none of the other 32 gods of Vedas who are with the limited set of functions. The case of 'Indra' was later settled in the 'Mahabharat' showing where he stands when compared to supreme being 'Vishnu' i.e Krishna. Even in vedas, Indra seeks help of Vishnu for killing a demon called 'Vritra', meaning Indra is insufficient to do some tasks & he needs the help of something external power to accomplish that. & that is the 'Supreme Brahman' the all-pervading Vishnu...

 

The twelve Sun gods: Twastr, Savitr, Bhaga, Surya, Pushan, Vishnu, Vaisvanara, Varuna, Kesi, Vrshakapi, Yama, Aja-Ekapat.

 

Ignoring Vishnu will count to 32, which is incomplete without 'Brahman'.....

[prvn2007]

The twelve Sun gods: Twastr, Savitr, Bhaga, Surya, Pushan, Vishnu, Vaisvanara, Varuna, Kesi, Vrshakapi, Yama, Aja-Ekapat.

Foolish 'Hotr' scholars like Saraba Iyar contradict themselves saying Vishnu is not a vedic God. If you subtract 'Vishnu' here then exactly it would count to 32 gods, as per the argument of Saraba Iyar, but still out of prejudice he does that & gives non-sense logic that is Vishnu is the title given to any god for that matter. But 'Vishnu-meaning all pervading one' is the exclusive attribute/name of the 'supreme Brahman' alone & not other gods ( 32 other ), if it was so then there should be 32 'supreme Brahmans' which is rubbish polytheistic idea as per Saraba. There is one instance where 'Indra' seeks help of 'Vishnu' to kill a demon called 'Vritra', which means gods are not sufficient to carry out a task without the help of the external supreme power i.e 'Vishnu'.... Mere praising of 32 gods in vedas doesnt reduce any glory of the supreme brahman', i.e Vishnu....

'Saraba', grow up kid to become a real scholar....