Demi-Gods? I need clarification. Please help me understand.

[bhaktajan]

.................................................................................................................

TO ARJ:

According to the Vedänta-sütra, 'sambhüta' is the source of birth and sustenance, as well as the reservoir that remains after annihilation (janmädy asya yataù [sB 1.1.1]).

The Çrémad-Bhägavatam, the natural commentary on the Vedänta-sütra by the same author, maintains that the source of all emanations is not like a dead stone but is abhijïa, or fully conscious.

The primeval Lord, Çré Kåñëa, also says in the Bhagavad-gétä (7.26) that He is fully conscious of past, present and future and that no one, including demigods such as Çiva and Brahmä, knows Him fully.

Certainly half-educated “spiritual leaders” who are disturbed by the tides of material existence cannot know Him fully.

They try to make some compromise by making the mass of humanity the object of worship, but they do not know that such worship is only a myth because the masses are imperfect.

The attempt by these so-called spiritual leaders is something like pouring water on the leaves of a tree instead of the root. The natural process is to pour water on the root, but such disturbed leaders are more attracted to the leaves than the root.

Despite their perpetually watering the leaves, however, everything dries up for want of nourishment.

 

1—The living being is perpetually suffering in different types of bodies from the material miseries of birth, old age, disease and death.

2—The human form of life offers one a chance to get out of this entanglement simply by reestablishing the lost relationship between the living entity and the Supreme Lord.

3—The Lord comes personally to teach this philosophy of surrender unto the Supreme, the sambhüta.

4—Real service to humanity is rendered when one teaches surrender to and worship of the Supreme Lord with full love and energy. That is the instruction of Lord Lord Sri Krishna Chaitanya Mahaprabhu.

 

........................................................................

Hiranyagarpa:

In the Atharva Veda (Gopäla-täpané Upaniñad 1.24) it is similarly said:

“He who existed before the creation of Brahmä and who enlightened Brahmä with Vedic knowledge is Lord Çré Kåñëa.”

Similarly, the Näräyaëa Upaniñad (1) states: “Then the Supreme Person, Näräyaëa, desired to create all living beings. Thus from Näräyaëa, Brahmä was born. Näräyaëa created all the Prajäpatis. Näräyaëa created Indra. Näräyaëa created the eight Vasus. Näräyaëa created the eleven Rudras. Näräyaëa created the twelve Ädityas.”

Since Näräyaëa is a plenary manifestation of Lord Kåñëa, Näräyaëa and Kåñëa are one and the same.

The Näräyaëa Upaniñad (4) also states: “Devaké’s son [Kåñëa] is the Supreme Lord.”

The identity of Näräyaëa with the supreme cause has also been accepted and confirmed by Çrépäda Çaìkaräcärya, even though Çaìkara does not belong to the Vaiñëava, or personalist, cult.

The Atharva Veda (Mahä Upaniñad 1) also states: “Only Näräyaëa existed in the beginning, when neither Brahmä, nor Çiva, nor fire, nor water, nor stars, nor sun, nor moon existed. The Lord does not remain alone but creates as He desires.”

 

Kåñëa Himself states in the Mokña-dharma, “I created the Prajäpatis and the Rudras. They do not have complete knowledge of Me because they are covered by My illusory energy.”

It is also stated in the Varäha Puräëa: “Näräyaëa is the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and from Him the four-headed Brahmä was manifested, as well as Rudra, who later became omniscient.”

 

......................................................

Bee:

"What troubles me most about ISKCON is that they put Jehovah, Buddha, Allah [HEY FOLKS, Bee IS REFERRING TO GOD, 'BY ANYOTHER NAME'] up there as being the same as Krishna but the rest [HEY FOLKS, Bee IS REFERRING TO TO HIMSELF AND HIS HOMEBOYS] are unintelligent, mayavadi [YOU SEE? Bee IS REFERRING TO HIMSELF] worshippers of “demi-Gods” or Devas. Well I will continue to remain unintelligent. [HEY Bee, TRY CONHERENTCY--I guess we know what Bee really means to say--but why do we have to be obliged to do his work of making sense of his opinion?--I guess an Intellectuals' job is never done until the ]

[Bee]

 

.................................................................................................................

Bee:

"What troubles me most about ISKCON is that they put Jehovah, Buddha, Allah [HEY FOLKS, Bee IS REFERRING TO GOD, 'BY ANYOTHER NAME'] up there as being the same as Krishna but the rest [HEY FOLKS, Bee IS REFERRING TO TO HIMSELF AND HIS HOMEBOYS] are unintelligent, mayavadi worshippers of “demi-Gods” or Devas. Well I will continue to remain unintelligent. [HEY Bee, TRY CONHERENTCY]"

Hey bhaktajan. First of all I am not a "himself and his homeboys" because I am a girl. And I never heard of the word "CONHERENTCY". I even tried to look in the dictionary. I don't care if you call Allah as Krishna, but to put down the rest demi-God worshippers...well its very unsettling... . You have to read the covers of some of those books, thats where it says Krishna is Allah, Buddha, Jenovah...

 

And peeps, forgive me if I come across as angry because actually I am but at something else... not having a good day and I know I shouldn't take it out on people....but I still like to debate and these debates usually upset everyone.

[bhaktajan]

Originally Posted by vedicnotes

... The beauty of Sanatana Dharma is that it gives us a choice to make our own spiritual model. ...

 

...................................................................................

HEY Vedicnotes! You couldn't be more hopelessly wrong about the definition of "Sanatana Dharma"!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Sanatana-dharma—literally, the “eternal activity of the soul”, or the eternal religion of the living being–to render service to the Supreme Lord, which in this age is executed mainly by chanting the maha-mantra [bhakti-yoga includes hearing about Krishna-chanting about Krishna-remembering Krishna pastimes-praying to Krishna -prepping & taking Krishna Prasadam etc--all for the purpose of preparing our consciousness and mentality and gentlemanly ettiquette and refined culturing and thorough education of:

 

A--sambhutim—[the eternal Personality of Godhead, His transcendental name, form, pastimes, qualities and paraphernalia, the variegatedness of His abode, etc.]

 

and,

 

B--vinasham—[the temporary material manifestation of demigods, men, animals, etc., with their false names, fame, etc. ]

[bhaktajan]

Anutie Bee-ji:

"I don't care if you call Allah as Krishna, but to put down the rest demi-God worshippers...well its very unsettling... "

.................................................................................................

"The material world is a 'perverted reflection' of the Spiritual World**"

 

[**the heavenly-celetrial abodes of the

Devas are found far above the Earth's terrestrial

planetary systems and must not to be confused with

The Transcendent abode of the "Vaikuntha planets"

which are floating

in the Self-luminuous Spiritual-Sky (brahmajyoti-effulgence)

which exist outside our present Brahmanda's egg-shell-like covering

that encloses our cosmos--these countless similar Brahmandas

all emanate from MahaVishu's breathing].

 

 

The 'rules' and 'laws' and 'personal attributes' of the human/Deva condition and the 'varigated-variety' of life in the material world vs. the Spiritual World is the "same"--but different [The calculus of the material Cosmos may differ form the Spiritual Sky's Worlds but the basic common denominators are the same: "personhood"].

 

The Difference is that in the Kingdom of God only one person is the person that all of life revolves around --and we must be trained-up to learn the protocol for appreciating the association of an Absolute Godheading wellspring-Ruler of all the Souls & all the Cosmos and All Personal attributes that have ever or will ever exist.

 

[How ya keep them down on the farm after they see ole Moscow & Beijing & Caracas & Havana & Pyongyang & Rangoon?].

 

PS: So how long have you been proof-reading? Have English-Major Degree?--how opulent that would be Bee.

[MikeMalaysia]

 

Dear Mike, it is not as easy as you think. To me they are all forms of Brahman, regardless of whether Prabhupada thinks I am a “mayavad”. I cannot separate them in my mind. I always thought that

He also says "Brahman, the spirit, beginningless and subordinate to me, lies beyond the cause and effect of this material world" (Bhagavad-Gita 13:13)

 

So it's quite obvious that Lord Krishna is the origin of Brahman and that Brahman is subordinate to Lord Krishna. When Arjuna views Krishna's Universal Form, he says: "All the various manifestations of Lord Śiva, the Ādityas, the Vasus, the Sādhyas, the Viśvedevas, the two Aśvīs, the Maruts, the forefathers, the Gandharvas, the Yakṣas, the Asuras and the perfected devas are beholding You in wonder." (Bhagavad-Gita 11:22)

 

If the devas are beholding Krishna is Brahman (the actual source) and you can worship Brahman in any form like <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com

.

 

<FONT color=#0000e0 p < 10:2) (Bhagavad-Gita sages? and devas the of source am I respect, every in for, opulences, or origin My know sages great nor hosts Neither>

<FONT color=black><FONT face=Verdana>

 

<FONT color=black><FONT face=Verdana>Lord Chaitanya, who was God Himself incarnate in the form of a pure devotee, said the same thing. Srila Prabhupada is not making up something - he is simply restating that which Lord Chaitanya Mahaprabhu stated.

 

<FONT color=black><FONT face=Verdana>

 

<FONT color=black><FONT face=Verdana>For a start, Buddha is an incarnation of Lord Krishna, as attested by the Vedic Scriptures. In reference to the Muslims. Jews and Christians they are referring to a generic definition of God. The Saivites and other deva worshippers are specifically referring to Lord Shiva and/or the other devas who are not God. When the Jews, Muslims and Christians refer to God they are referring to a single God. They just do not have sufficient information about this God.

[gHari]

 

[..]

And Bhrama did not write Vedas.

True indeed. Actually no one wrote the Vedas; they eternally emanate from the breathing of Lord Narayana. But .... would we not relish a book written by our very own Lord Brahma? Of course a cautious man might ask "How do I know he wrote it"? Indeed - how do we know anything? My way of knowing is yoga - and I accept the Sri Brahma-Samhita as it was partially recovered in the middle ages and preserved to this day. It remains amongst my favorite literatures and over thirty years I have never found anything in it that did not ring of the Supreme simple secret that fills all the Vedic revelation.

 

I would only recommend that one remain humble and hope to avoid limiting offences on this complex path to the unknowable truth. Offences and attachment will keep us distant from the Ultimate Reality.

 

With that said, so easy to say, let me offer the logical mind an unravelling of poetry:

 

 

<center>Humility

If God were here

We would be most humble

In His glorious presence,

Dwarfed by His magnificence.

 

When we are not that humble,

Then surely He cannot be here;

Or at least

We are not aware of His presence -

Since we are too busy

Being rulers of all that we survey.

 

Humble is our true state;

All other levels of pride

Are mere concoctions.

Quite suffice it is just to BE

An eternal servant of Sri Krsna.

 

</center>Gaurahari

[Milly]

 

.For a start, Buddha is an incarnation of Lord Krishna, as attested by the Vedic Scriptures.

Was there a specific name and time given? I always wondered about this. I am asking out of curiosity because Mahaveer, the 24th Tirthankara of Jainism, had a simular mission to Buddha. Mahavir came a little before Buddha but they were both contempories. So I am asking because it could have been either one of those but Mahaveer isn't that well known. Neminath, the 22nd Jina was Krishna's cousin. Not sure if they lived during the same time though but he was mentioned in Rig Veda along with the first Tirthankara.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neminath

[ARJ]

 

half-educated “spiritual leaders”

 

 

:) :)

[kaisersose]

 

Lord Chaitanya, who was God Himself incarnate in the form of a pure devotee, said the same thing. Srila Prabhupada is not making up something - he is simply restating that which Lord Chaitanya Mahaprabhu stated.

Did Chaitanya say it is OK to worship Jesus as the supreme, but not Shiva as supreme? I highly doubt that. I doubt it because he was not trying to woo a western christian crowd and therefore had no need to put Jesus on a pedestal with no scriptural backup.

For a start, Buddha is an incarnation of Lord Krishna, as attested by the Vedic Scriptures. In reference to the Muslims. Jews and Christians they are referring to a generic definition of God.

 

Then you agree that this generic definition may well match to Shiva. As there was no specific mapping to any one Indian God, it could map to anyone.

 

 

The Saivites and other deva worshippers are specifically referring to

Lord Shiva and/or the other devas who are not God.

 

Not God? Shiva is the supreme from whom everyone else including Vishnu, Krishna, etc., emanate. If in doubt, please consult any Shaiva.

 

 

When the Jews, Muslims and Christians refer to God they are referring to a single God. They just do not have sufficient information about this God.

 

Thank you. Like I said earlier, you will have no objection if we map this single God to Shiva in which case, the Jews, Christians and Muslims are actually Shaivas, only they are not aware of it.

 

Cheers

 

[Hiranyagarpa]

 

.................................................................................................................

Hiranyagarpa:

In the Atharva Veda (Gopäla-täpané Upaniñad 1.24) it is similarly said:

“He who existed before the creation of Brahmä and who enlightened Brahmä with Vedic knowledge is Lord Çré Kåñëa.”

Similarly, the Näräyaëa Upaniñad (1) states: “Then the Supreme Person, Näräyaëa, desired to create all living beings. Thus from Näräyaëa, Brahmä was born. Näräyaëa created all the Prajäpatis. Näräyaëa created Indra. Näräyaëa created the eight Vasus. Näräyaëa created the eleven Rudras. Näräyaëa created the twelve Ädityas.”

Since Näräyaëa is a plenary manifestation of Lord Kåñëa, Näräyaëa and Kåñëa are one and the same.

The Näräyaëa Upaniñad (4) also states: “Devaké’s son [Kåñëa] is the Supreme Lord.”

The identity of Näräyaëa with the supreme cause has also been accepted and confirmed by Çrépäda Çaìkaräcärya, even though Çaìkara does not belong to the Vaiñëava, or personalist, cult.

The Atharva Veda (Mahä Upaniñad 1) also states: “Only Näräyaëa existed in the beginning, when neither Brahmä, nor Çiva, nor fire, nor water, nor stars, nor sun, nor moon existed. The Lord does not remain alone but creates as He desires.”

 

Kåñëa Himself states in the Mokña-dharma, “I created the Prajäpatis and the Rudras. They do not have complete knowledge of Me because they are covered by My illusory energy.”

It is also stated in the Varäha Puräëa: “Näräyaëa is the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and from Him the four-headed Brahmä was manifested, as well as Rudra, who later became omniscient.”

 

.

 

Atarva veda is not considered to be an authentiv veda by the vedic tradition. There are many sources for support for this. Vedas are considered to be only three. ( I have many authentic pramanas for this . In case you need tham I can supply next time ). Hence your quate from Atarva veda has no merit.

 

Narayana Upanasid and many other upanasads are not part of genune vedas . They are latter addition. Any thing that does not taly with three vedas ( More stingently , any idea that is not found in Rg veda) is not genunely Vedic . This is an acid test for what is genune. So if you want to quote veda for support quote the first three vedas - or to be more perfect - quote only from Rg veda.

 

Varaha purana is a purana not Veda.

 

As for as Vedic position is concerened Saraba Iyar is right. I know it for certain by my independ research. Why figfht against what is factually true? You will never win that way.

 

The better stratgey for you is to say " Hell with Vedas. Bagavada purana and Vishnu purana are good enough authentic devive sourses . Regardinfg truth of devine, Bagavad geeta alone is enough". That way you will be invinsible. If you try to justify your position by the support of Veda you will only cut a sorry figure, though many foolishly try to do that with out having first hand knowledge of Veda. (They can only fool people who are ignorant of vedas, not who are learmned in Vedas)

 

I am not against Krishna bakti . I am only trying to help you on this issue. Because I tried once all that you are trying and missarably failed as Vedic truth is really otherwise. I discovered it the hard way, with my debate with people who really knows Vedas well.

 

Hiranyagarpa.

[kaisersose]

 

Atarva veda is not considered to be an authentiv veda by the vedic tradition. There are many sources for support for this. Vedas are considered to be only three.

 

That is correct as can be found in Gita 9.20, etc.

 

 

( I have many authentic pramanas for this . In case you need tham I can supply next time ). Hence your quate from Atarva veda has no merit.

 

They have quotes from the Rig-Veda itself. Bhakti Vinoda Thakur "discovered" a written Bengali copy of the Chaitanya Upanishad which according to him is part of the Rig Veda. And no surprise that this text confirms and supports all the conclusions of the Gaudiya Vaishnava System. I would not be surprised if it also contains a verse about the Vaishnava status of Jesus.

 

So they have support from the main Veda itself.

 

Cheers

[Trivedi]

 

.

Yes, by your own admission you are a Mayavadi.

.

So what? If some one could call you Dwaida vadi or krishna vadi by your own admitance, what does it matter?

.

For a start, Buddha is an incarnation of Lord Krishna, as attested by the Vedic Scriptures.

 

No sorry. Nowhere in Vedas anything like this is found. You must be confusing Puranas with Vedas.

 

Muslims. Jews and Christians they are referring to a generic definition of God. The Saivites and other deva worshippers are specifically referring to Lord Shiva and/or the other devas who are not God.

 

What do you mean ? They are refering to spific god only Not generalally any god. They will not accept your god as God . They are very specific and perticular about that.

Trivedi

[Bee]

 

:) :)

 

He is not half educated because he said so...

 

See...spiritual leaders" who are disturbed by the tides of material existence cannot know Him fully"

 

http://vedabase.net/iso/13/en1

 

[bhaktajan]

 

Atarva veda is not veda --Atarva veda has no merit.

 

Narayana Upanasid and upanasads are not vedas .

This is an acid test for what is genune. So if you want to quote veda for support quote the first three vedas - or to be more perfect - quote only from Rg veda.

 

Varaha purana is not Veda.

 

I know it for certain by my independ research.

Why fight against what is factually true? You will never win that way.

 

The better stratgey for you is to say:

"Hell with Vedas. Bagavada purana and Vishnu purana are good enough authentic devive sourses . Regardinfg truth of devine, Bagavad geeta alone is enough". [***]

 

That way you will be invinsible.

 

If you try to justify your position by the support of Veda you will only cut a sorry figure, though many foolishly try to do that with out having first hand knowledge of Veda. (They can only fool people who are ignorant of vedas, not who are learned in Vedas)

 

I am not against Krishna bakti .

 

I am only trying to help you on this issue.

 

Because I tried once all that you are trying and missarably failed as Vedic truth is really otherwise.

 

I discovered it the hard way, with my debate with people who really knows Vedas well.

 

Hiranyagarpa.

 

When, in future, you be born into a Muslim family--then you know what you are sowing foryour self-- 'again be a Carpetbagger', Twit.

 

[***This requires further inquiry so that a full passing of the patticake to occur.]

 

....................................................................................................................

So Vyasadeva compiled smriti and could do no more --for us.

But, our Hiranyagarpa's sensibilities are fulfilled by his knowing

intimately the hidden, secret, arcane, obtruse references

of the Rg Veda's text.

 

Hiranyagarpa's sanskrit Vocabulary is evidently so vast

as to know all the nuances of references to Manu's

lessons, cousins' larks, distant events and morality tales

of people places and things written in a book that has been

passed down since Brahma was born [or when Brahma last awoke]

by his great-great-greatest grandfather down to this day . . .

 

Hiranyagarpa has built a Vyasa-asana that can occupied by anyone except:

 

Sri Krishna Dvaipayana Vyasadeva

 

 

Hiranyagarpa he's our man!

If no one can do it --Hiranyagarpa can!

 

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Thank you everyone, You've been great! Please stay and enjoy yourselves.

Be seeing you,

Bhaktajan

 

PS: Thank you for pointing out who His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

is a fraud and disservice to the living entities and to the legacy of [mostly false doctrines] of the Vedas.

 

Hiranyagarpa you are a selfless servant of all those who seek the path of no return. Thank you. If only you were protecting Indira-ji then history would have been different.

[hindustani]

B.jan reply to his questions,if he or you or I take birth in any cast or in any other religion is not a point here and for God's sake stop copy paste ready made material and post your thoughts.

 

When, in future, you be born into a Muslim family--then you know what you are sowing foryour self-- 'again be a Carpetbagger', Twit.

 

[bhaktajan]

Pro-fessor Hindu-Stance?

 

Thanks for re-posting my custom-made statement meant especially for Christian anti-propagandists 'on a mission'.

 

Everyone else! Just see how the diatribes of

"quickly 'un-single-minded' attention to 'god-is-in-the-details' type of ulterior-motive-inspired"

trips-ups exposes the intellectual in-sincerity of pseudo-Hindu-philes

that generally post about Shiva & Advaita --all for the purposes of

a concerted effort to plant 'mis-information' --aimed at causing

descent in the rank-and-file Vedantists and spiritual seekers visiting anew to this forum.

.................................................................................

Again:

[HS's advise:...for God's sake stop copy paste ready made material and post your thoughts.

Followed by,

re-posting Bhaktajan's custom-made statement]

 

IMO HS's postings, along with others, are hit and run postings that are

derisive and empty of Counter-revelational input

and then --the same "strategy" is repeated onorder to inflame without scholastic reference(s) that can be utilized in re-buttals.

[gHari]

<a href=http://vedabase.net/bg/15/15/en target=mew>Bhagavad-gita 15.15:</a>

 

<font color=blue> <B><center>sarvasya cAhaM hRdi sanniviSTo

mattaH smRtir jJAnam apohanaM ca

vedaiz ca sarvair aham eva vedyo

vedAnta-kRd veda-vid eva cAham

 

"I am seated in everyone's heart,

and from Me come remembrance, knowledge and forgetfulness.

By all the Vedas, I am to be known.

Indeed, I am the compiler of VedAnta,

and I am the knower of the Vedas".</center>

</font>

</b>

 

 

<a href=http://vedabase.net/bg/12/1/en target=new>Our heroes discuss in the beginning of the Bhagavad-gita Chapter 12:<a>

 

 

<center>arjuna uvAca

evaM satata-yuktA ye

bhaktAs tvAM paryupAsate

ye cApy akSaram avyaktaM

teSAM ke yoga-vittamAH

 

zrI-bhagavAn uvAca:

mayy Avezya mano ye mAM

nitya-yuktA upAsate

zraddhayA parayopetAs

te me yuktatamA matAH

 

ye tv akSaram anirdezyam

avyaktaM paryupAsate

sarvatra-gam acintyaM ca

kUTa-stham acalaM dhruvam

 

sanniyamyendriya-grAmaM

sarvatra sama-buddhayaH

te prApnuvanti mAm eva

sarva-bhUta-hite ratAH

 

klezo 'dhikataras teSAm

avyaktAsakta-cetasAm

avyaktA hi gatir duHkhaM

dehavadbhir avApyate

 

ye tu sarvANi karmANi

mayi sannyasya mat-parAH

ananyenaiva yogena

mAM dhyAyanta upAsate

 

teSAm ahaM samuddhartA

mRtyu-saMsAra-sAgarAt

bhavAmi na cirAt pArtha

mayy Avezita-cetasAm

 

mayy eva mana Adhatsva

mayi buddhiM nivezaya

nivasiSyasi mayy eva

ata UrdhvaM na saMzayaH

</center>

[mahak]

Haribol, all, and to my friend gHari, haribol+++.

 

We have heard Krsna say that we will go to whom we worship. So rests my point exactly. A sub god may not really be where we want to go, but a confidential servant of Krsna is a God (note the Capital G) whose association is very valuable. I used to say I wanna be a yamadhuta when I grow up. Why? Because I really want to be eternally associated with Lord Yamaraja no matter where he is, be he Sri Vidura, Sri Yudhisthira, no matter, where he is is the pure devotional service which is like touchstone. Same with a desire to associate with Lord Siva. How can one go wrong being with Lord Siva (or Sri Advaita acarya)? What is my perfect devotion to Lord Ganesha enabled me to arrange his sitting place while he acts as Sri Vyasadeva's scribe. Wouldnt is be the greatest halloween rasa to watch Kali Maa do away with those who would commit attrocity against the vaisnava?

 

So, despite the blundering offense the less intelligent make against the great Godlike devotees of the Supreme Lord, their stories as presented by Srila Prabhupada in his delivery of Sri Bhagvat Purana is the nectar of my life. When I hear some who say to worship these persons is foolish, I cringe, especially when my spiritual master tells me to always worship them. Now, there is another kind of worship, which has no english translation, which is only meant for the Godhead, the God of all the Gods, which is described in bhagavad gita. This is the worship witnessed by Sri Narada Muni when observing the creator God Lord Brahma worshipping. This is the type of worship witnessed by the disciples when their Lord Jesus Christ told them to pray as he did, saying "Our Father, glory to your Holy Name..."

 

Hare Krsna, and all glories to his eternal associates, Lord Yama, Siva, Sri, Surya, Varuna. Indra? Dunno bout him, but I guess I can worship him, seeing that I kinda like Duryodhana when others hate him. But Duryodhana was Lord Balaramas best friend, just as much as Arjuna was Krsna's best friend, so what do we do bout that, eh all ye canadians and Mauritiusians. How can we hate Balaramas best friend? Maybe this science is a thinkin mon's science as it is. Maybe there is room to DISCERN (There's that evil word of mahak's again) reality, just as a swan can mix water and milk and take either liquid, leaving di udder.

 

yer serf ant, mahak of di waves of time crashing all around me.

[Smiley]

Dear Bee,

You have asked a heart-felt question in an open forum.

Now you are perplexed by a divergence of opinion.

If you have a guru that you love, then honor his opinion.

If not, choose an answer that inspires you and abide in that.

That will give you peace.

 

 

Ufff , seriously this is confusing . I give up. I have tried my very best to seperate these Gods in my head but I cannot. Refering to them as demi-Gods is also very demeaning. Yes I cringe too everytime I hear it. For one thing, my family are not Vaishnavas. They worship one God, not for any material benefit. My favourite God is Krishna, but the problem arises when I have to accept that my family are foolish and stupid for worshiping another God. I cannot think of them like that. For me, this is like trying to take joy from a faith which tells me that my good parents are going to hell for worshipping the wrong "God". Where is the spirtuality/peace in this? I am no better than my parents, and I do not want to end up with an ego over my head saying I am superior and more clever than my parents for worshipping right God over "demi-God". And to be honest, I have noticed some people with such ego over their head. Sorry about the rant there but this is seriously very confusing.

[ARJ]

 

Neither Sankara nor Krishna are more authentic than Sruti (Vedas)

 

beautiful, thank you Ravindranji

[bhaktajan]

In the Vedic literature, in the åg-mantra hymns of the Åg Veda, it is stated that those who are actually brähmaëas always look to the lotus feet of Viñëu: oà tad viñëoù paramaà padaà sadä paçyanti sürayaù.

 

Those who are qualified brähmaëas worship only the Viñëu form of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, which means Kåñëa, Räma and all Viñëu expansions. A so-called brähmaëa who is born in the family of brähmaëas but performs activities aimed against the Vaiñëavas cannot be accepted as a brähmaëa, because brähmaëa means Vaiñëava and Vaiñëava means brähmaëa. One who has become a devotee of the Lord is also a brähmaëa.

 

The formula is brahma jänätéti brähmaëaù. A brähmaëa is one who has understood Brahman, and a Vaiñëava is one who has understood the personality of Godhead. Brahman realization is the beginning of realization of the Personality of Godhead. One who understands the Personality of Godhead also knows the impersonal feature of the Supreme, which is Brahman. Therefore one who becomes a Vaiñëava is already a brähmaëa.

 

It should be noted that the glories of the brähmaëa are described by the Lord Himself refer to His devotee-brähmaëa, or the Vaiñëava. It should never be misunderstood that the so-called brähmaëas who are born in brähmaëa families but have no brahminical qualifications are referred to as a qualified brähmaëas in this connection.

In the Åg Veda, the predominating Deity of the sun is worshiped by, this mantra: dhyeyaù sadä savitå-maëòala-madhya-varti näräyaëaù sarasijäsana-sanniviñöaù. Näräyaëa sits on His lotus flower within the sun. By reciting this mantra, every living entity should take shelter of Näräyaëa just as the sun rises. According to modern scientists, the material world rests on the sun’s effulgence.

 

Due to the sunshine, all planets are rotating and vegetables are growing. We also have information that the moonshine helps vegetables and herbs grow. Actually Näräyaëa within the sun is maintaining the entire universe; therefore Näräyaëa should be worshiped by the Gäyatré mantra or the Åg mantra.

Additional information about Çré Rädhä is given in the Åg-pariçiñöa (the supplement to the Åg Veda): rädhayä mädhavo devo mädhavenaiva rädhikä/ vibhräjante janeñu. “Among all persons, it is Çré Rädhä in whose company Lord Mädhava is especially glorious, as She is especially glorious in His.”

The influence of the material energy cannot touch Lord Viñëu as she touches Lord Brahmä and Lord Çiva. Therefore it is said that Lord Viñëu is transcendental to the material qualities. The incarnations of the material qualities—Lord Çiva and Lord Brahmä—are under the jurisdiction of the external energy.

 

Lord Viñëu, however, is different. In the mantras of the Åg Veda it is said, oà tad viñëoù paramaà padam (Åg Veda-saàhitä 1.22.20). The words paramaà padam indicate that He is transcendental to the material qualities. Because Lord Viñëu is not within the jurisdiction of the material qualities, He is always superior to the living entities who are controlled by the material energy.

 

This is one of the differences between the Supreme Lord and the living entities. Lord Brahmä is a very powerful living entity, and Lord Çiva is even more powerful. Therefore Lord Çiva is not accepted as a living entity, but at the same time he is not considered to be on the level of Lord Viñëu.

Åg-saàhitä (Åg Veda 1.154.6):

tä väà västüny uçmasi gamadhyai

yatra gävo bhüri-çåìgä ayäsaù

aträha tad urugäyasya kåñëaù

paramaà padam avabhäti bhüri

“We wish to go to Your [Rädhä’s and Kåñëa’s] beautiful houses, about which cows with large, excellent horns are wandering. Yet distinctly shining on this earth is that supreme abode of Yours that showers joy on all, O Urugäya [Kåñëa, who is much praised].”

Originally the Veda is one. But Çréla Vyäsadeva divided the original Veda into four, namely Säma, Yajur, Åg, Atharva, and then again they were explained in different branches like the Puräëas and the Mahäbhärata. Vedic language and the subject matter are very difficult for ordinary men.

 

They are understood by the highly intelligent and self-realized brähmaëas. But the present age of Kali is full of ignorant men. Even those who are born by a brähmaëa father are, in the present age, no better than the çüdras or the women. The twice-born men, namely the brähmaëas, kñatriyas and vaiçyas, are expected to undergo a cultural purificatory process known as saàskäras, but because of the bad influence of the present age the so-called members of the brähmaëa and other high-order families are no longer highly cultured.

 

They are called the dvija-bandhus, or the friends and family members of the twice-born. But these dvija-bandhus are classified amongst the çüdras and the women. Çréla Vyäsadeva divided the Vedas into various branches and subbranches for the sake of the less intelligent classes like the dvija-bandhus, çüdras and women.

There is no difference also between the Vedic mantras and what is explained in the Puräëas and Itihäsa. According to Çréla Jéva Gosvämé, it is mentioned in the Mädhyandina-çruti that all the Vedas, namely the Säma, Atharva, Åg, Yajur, Puräëas, Itihäsas, Upaniñads, etc., are emanations from the breathing of the Supreme Being. The only difference is that the Vedic mantras are mostly begun with praëava oàkära, and it requires some training to practice the metric pronunciation of the Vedic mantras.

 

But that does not mean that Çrémad-Bhägavatam is of less importance than the Vedic mantras. On the contrary, it is the ripened fruit of all the Vedas, as stated before. Besides that, the most perfectly liberated soul, Çréla Çukadeva Gosvämé, is absorbed in the studies of the Bhägavatam, although he is already self-realized. Çréla Süta Gosvämé is following his footsteps, and therefore his position is not the least less important because he was not expert in chanting Vedic mantras with metric pronunciation, which depends more on practice than actual realization. Realization is more important than parrotlike chanting.

Formerly there was only the Veda of the name Yajur, and the four divisions of sacrifices were there specifically mentioned. But to make them more easily performable, the Veda was divided into four divisions of sacrifice, just to purify the occupational service of the four orders.

 

Above the four Vedas, namely Åg, Yajur, Säma, and Atharva, there are the Puräëas, the Mahäbhärata, Saàhitäs, etc., which are known as the fifth Veda. Çré Vyäsadeva and his many disciples were all historical personalities, and they were very kind and sympathetic toward the fallen souls of this age of Kali.

 

As such, the Puräëas and Mahäbhärata were made from related historical facts which explained the teaching of the four Vedas. There is no point in doubting the authority of the Puräëas and Mahäbhärata as parts and parcels of the Vedas. In the Chändogya Upaniñad (7.1.4), the Puräëas and Mahäbhärata, generally known as histories, are mentioned as the fifth Veda. According to Çréla Jéva Gosvämé, that is the way of ascertaining the respective values of the revealed scriptures.

The four divisions of the original sources of knowledge [the Vedas] were made separately. But the historical facts and authentic stories mentioned in the Puräëas are called the fifth Veda.

After the Vedas were divided into four divisions, Paila Åñi became the professor of the Åg Veda, Jaimini the professor of the Säma Veda, and Vaiçampäyana alone became glorified by the Yajur Veda.

The living beings are created by the creator Brahmä, and just to maintain the created living being progressively towards the path back to Godhead, the system of performing sacrifice is also created by him. The system is that living beings live on the produce of grains and vegetables, and by eating such foodstuff they get vital power of the body in the shape of blood and semen, and from blood and semen one living being is able to create other living beings. But the production of grains, grass, etc. becomes possible by rain, and this rain is made to shower properly by performance of recommended sacrifices.

 

Such sacrifices are directed by the rites of the Vedas, namely Säma, Yajur, Åg and Atharva. In the Manu-småti it is recommended that by offerings of sacrifice on the altar of the fire, the sun-god is pleased. When the sun-god is pleased, he properly collects water from the sea, and thus sufficient clouds collect on the horizon and rains fall. After sufficient rains fall, there is sufficient production of grains for men and all animals, and thus there is energy in the living being for progressive activity.

The mlecchas, however, make plans to install slaughterhouses for killing bulls and cows along with other animals, thinking that they will prosper by increasing the number of factories and live on animal food without caring for performance of sacrifices and production of grains.

 

But they must know that even for the animals they must produce grass and vegetables, otherwise the animals cannot live. And to produce grass for the animals, they require sufficient rains. Therefore they have to depend ultimately on the mercy of the demigods like the sun-god, Indra and Candra, and such demigods must be satisfied by performances of sacrifice.

This material world is a sort of prison house--- The demigods are the servants of the Lord who see to the proper upkeep of the prison house. These demigods want to see that the rebel living beings, who want to survive faithlessly, are gradually turned towards the supreme power of the Lord. Therefore, the system of offering sacrifice is recommended in the scriptures.

For the devotees there is no need for performance of prescribed sacrifices because the very life of the devotee is a symbol of sacrifice. But persons who are engaged in fruitive activities for sense enjoyment must perform the prescribed sacrifices because that is the only means to get free from the reaction of all sins committed by fruitive workers.

 

Sacrifice is the means for counteracting such accumulated sins. The demigods are pleased when such sacrifices are performed, just as prison officers are satisfied when the prisoners are turned into obedient subjects.

 

Lord Caitanya, however, has recommended only one yajïa, or sacrifice, called the saìkértana-yajïa, the chanting of Hare Kåñëa Maha-mantra [Hare Hare Kåñëa, Hare Kåñëa, Kåñëa Kåñëa, Hare Hare/ Hare Räma, Hare Räma, Räma Räma, Hare Hare], in which everyone can take part. Thus both devotees and fruitive workers can derive equal benefit from the performances of saìkértana-yajïa.

 

..................................................................................................

Ok Boys, what points should I next zero-in on? Which other points have I not addressed yet?

Feel free to negate what I have posted--and then please state your own point-of-references for me to cross-examine.

[ARJ]

 

Even those who are born by a brähmaëa father are, in the present age, no better than the çüdras or the women.

 

why is a shudra inferior ? why do you Vaishnavites consider someone who does not worship Vishnu as inferior & a woman is inferior coz she's a woman ? shame on you. Even the muslims don't allow women to pray along side men in mosques. What's the matter with you people. bloody sexists

[Amlesh]

 

beautiful, thank you Ravindranji

 

Wrong....

The Devaki Putram Gitam is considered as Sruti.

 

Gita being the 12th Upanisad... known as Gitopanishad.

 

The Gitam is known only and only after knowing the Vedas and the Upanishads pretty well.

 

Gita reconciliates the THIS of the Vedas and NOT THIS of the Upnaishads.

[Amlesh]

 

why is a shudra inferior ? why do you Vaishnavites consider someone who does not worship Vishnu as inferior & a woman is inferior coz she's a woman ? shame on you.

 

Not the Vaishnavites but the Hare Krishna.

Don't generalise buddy.

 

But I don't think Bhaktajan meant what you have emphasized.

 

Well.. but I do agree that many of Hare Krishnas have that Superiority Complex with their Doctrine [which they think they've understood... which is far from that.]

[A.Ravi sekhar]

Demi god means the God(power) who is having tasks for wel fair of human beings and are reporting to supreme power,Lord God Shiva