Hate the sin, not the sinner. Is it the Krsna Conscious thing to do, or a cop out?

[Svarupa]

Are these angry words of Matsya das just a 'witch hunt' from those who are not spiritually advanced? Or is he right?

Some say we should hate the sin, not the sinner. Is that the Krsna Conscious thing to do, or is it a cop out?

 

If not, how can we say Lord Caitanya is Patita-pavana (the deliverer of the most fallen)??

Is the following the right way to treat fallen souls? (Who really are the most fallen) - To Hell with the Child Molesters Oct 05, INDIA (SUN) — One thing I will agree with you all on, I do not understand why someone like Bhavananda is still allowed in ISKCON. He not only beat kids but had sex with them, too. FULL STORY

 

<CENTER></CENTER><CENTER></CENTER><CENTER></CENTER><CENTER>Or should we learn to Hate the sin, not the sinner? </CENTER>

 

 

The following was written by Charles Lewis in an issue of America Magazine, a Catholic weekly published by the Jesuits who interviews Sister Camille D’Arienzo

 

 

In the most recent issue of America Magazine, a Catholic weekly published by the Jesuits, Sister Camille D’Arienzo has written a compelling and courageous piece called Mercy Toward Our Fathers. It opens up the highly controversial subject of offering forgiveness to priests who abused children.

In 2002, massive allegations came to the surface of abuse by Catholic priests, especially in the Los Angeles and Boston areas. In Los Angeles, for example, the Church paid out US$100-million to compensate 87 sex abuse victims. And then spent millions more to compensate scores of further victims across the country. It remains an especially painful issue, given that many abusers were shuttled from parish to parish in the hopes they would vanish quietly into the system.

This is not an issue that will dissipate any time soon. Last week, for instance, the Archdiocese of Cincinnati published new guidelines for what priests could do with children. It prohibits big hugs, lap-sitting and putting children on one’s shoulder or back, as well as bans on kissing, tickling or wrestling.

Sister D’Arienzo, a nun for 57 years and a member of the Religious Sisters of Mercy in Brooklyn, N.Y., has worked with men on death row as well as the families of murder victims. That experience led her to the idea of looking at the possibility of reconciliation with fallen priests. As she states in the America article, “Holding onto anger has been likened to taking a sip of poison every day — not enough to kill, but more than enough to debilitate.”

She takes care to point out that her first concern is for the victims and their loved ones. And that anyone trying to bring the message of forgiveness and reconciliation — a core part of the Christian faith — must do so delicately. “Words that are meant to comfort and console can further aggravate and ignite.” She also adds one point that is more important: forgiveness does not mean forgetting or letting the perpetrator escape punishment.

I spoke to Sister Camille on Tuesday to try to try to get a better understanding of her views.

Q. How did you come to this idea of seeking some kind of reconciliation with sexual abusers?

A. I worked as a spiritual advisor for a man on death row in Indiana. After a couple of years of doing that I thought, I should really be doing something for victims. Eight years ago, I started having annual services for families of murder victims at our Mother House. Last year we had about 80 people come, most of whom who had lost a son to gunshots. For all the people who have been coming all these years, only two called for the death penalty for their sons’ murderers. Because I have been involved with the death penalty, I have this sense that all murderers are not the same. There are some that are pathologically insane and others who commit in a time of passion. That sparked my belief that those who have been accused of sexual molestation are not all on the same plane.

Q. Do you envision a priest guilty of abuse ever being brought back into the service of the Church?

A. It depends. Was he a many-time offender or was it something that happened during one short time in his life and he never did it again and has an unblemished record of 20 years since. There’s no one-size-fits-all in any situation. Perhaps that priest could be brought back in some capacity. Never around children but maybe in a retirement home or a monastery. I don’t have the answer. What I have is great sadness with what is now: that these priests are living with a spiritual death sentence.

Q. You say you feel a tremendous sadness over this. Many people are not going to understand that.

A. My first sadness is for the victim and for those who love the victim and feel betrayed. That is paramount. I have another sadness, though. There seems to be neither the wisdom nor the courage in the leadership of the Church to encourage compassion for the sinner, for the one who has done this horrible thing. And of course, I am as sorry for the predator who has a sexual addiction, as I would be for an alcoholic or a dope addict. Because there is an illness. There’s a whole swath of abusers who are sick. That’s one kind of concern for people who are ill. And another concern for those who had brief encounters in which they perpetrated evil on an innocent victim and who recognize that sinfulness and have repented and amended their ways and have done the best that they can to live good moral lives after the fall. What more can we ask of a human being?

My primary concern is that no child should suffer what the other children have suffered. That is one of my concerns with the priests who are abandoned, who are in disgrace — the very misery and shame that they feel might move them to do more of the same evil. Because no one has any hope for them. Or any encouragement for them. It seems to me you allow the evil to further fester if a person thinks that he is not capable of living a better life because that’s what society has told them.

Q. Can a mere mortal forgive this kind sin?

A. My hope is that someone reading the article will have the grace and the wisdom to know when and with whom to broach the topic of forgiveness. I know that words meant to console and comfort can further ignite and aggravate victims. You can make a case for slience in every horror the world has ever known. We have histories of silence. Those who speak out are really setting themselves up for misunderstanding and anger. And that’s not at all what one wants.

Q. Can you talk about the notion of forgiveness? Many say the ability to forgive, even in extreme situations, is fundamental to the gospel message.

A. [Forgiveness] is in my spirituality. People hear God’s teaching in different ways. There is the scriptural mandate that “to whom much is forgiven of that one much is required.” Some of us had a deeper and broader experience of religion and its impact: the good and not-so-good of it. For me to be silent was not appropriate. One of the most important things is that not everyone heals at the same rate or that everybody is ready for whatever medicine is available. To go too soon into someone who is hurting is to inflict greater suffering. And that’s one of my concerns. But is there a way for a caring community to help the person who needs healing?

Q. What do you hope to accomplish by talking about this?

A. It’s a twin hope. I cannot separate these hopes. One is that the person who has been hurt will consider extending forgiveness or at least to pray for the grace to want to forgive. And the one who has caused the pain will also experience forgiveness.

Charles Lewis writes about religious issues for the National Post

[Bishadi]

What a great topic; the idea of forgiveness.

When we are raised we are given guidelines and rules to follow. When we knowingly cross the lines often we are reprimanded and forgiven; we learn.

This comes from the mind not certain of the damage that can be caused. Such that no child is allowed within a fireworks factory holding a lit sparkler. Because them of responsibility are there to make sure that certain lines of foolishness are not crossed as the damage is irreversible.

Well the same must be adhered in observing the truth. Such that if each person was aware that they live in what they do, and that nothing imposed to existence can ‘ever’ be undone, then responsibility can be taught and clearly understood.

A pedophile will live in the heart and mind of that child and that every day from there forth, that child will be reacting to life based on the damage imposed.

The only forgiveness in existence is when a person harmed ‘forgives’ with such purity that nothing done to them will live beyond the adverse action felt and known. That is the only idea of forgiveness mankind can or will ever know (experience). As nothing is existence is ever ‘undone’ or the fireworks factory will not magically come back together and all the dead workers will walk again.

Each action a human being imposes to existence, is now a part of their life; even if they forget, they still live in that ‘energy’ they imposed to existence.

Such that an adverse teaching will be in the minds of them who listen; the good teachings live forever, the bad teachings not only harm themselves but each who are damaged.

Often the teacher’s intent is pure but that is why wisdom of ‘not knowing’ is often recognized within the humble teachers but then the few after the teacher often corrupt the truth and build a performance of deceit thereby called a religion.

So do we forgive the sin (the lie) or do we forgive the sinner (the continuing corrupter)?

Ie….. often the pedophile often creates the next generation of monsters.

[Svarupa]

 

Original unedited version -

 

Hate the Sin

BY: GAURAGOPALA DASA

 

 

 

 

Oct 06, USA (SUN) —

Hate the sin, not the sinner. Is that the Krsna Conscious thing to do, or a cop out? If not, how can we say Lord Caitanya is Patita-pavana? Are these angry words of Matsya das just a 'witch hunt' by those who are not spiritually advanced? Or is he right?

 

 

 

Is the following the right way to treat fallen souls? Who really are the most fallen?

 

• To Hell with the Child Molesters

• Oct 05, INDIA (SUN)
  - One thing I will agree with you all on, I do not understand why someone like Bhavananda is still allowed in ISKCON. He not only beat kids but had sex with them, too.

FULL STORY

 

 

Or should we learn to Hate the sin, not the sinner?

 

 

The following was written by Charles Lewis in an issue of

America Magazine

, a Catholic weekly published by the Jesuits, who interviewed Sister Camille D’Arienzo:

• 
  
  
  "Sister Camille D’Arienzo has written a compelling and courageous piece called Mercy Toward Our Fathers. It opens up the highly controversial subject of offering forgiveness to priests who abused children.
  
  
  
  
  In 2002, massive allegations came to the surface of abuse by Catholic priests, especially in the Los Angeles and Boston areas. In Los Angeles, for example, the Church paid out US$100-million to compensate 87 sex abuse victims. And then spent millions more to compensate scores of further victims across the country. It remains an especially painful issue, given that many abusers were shuttled from parish to parish in the hopes they would vanish quietly into the system.
  
  
  
  
  This is not an issue that will dissipate any time soon. Last week, for instance, the Archdiocese of Cincinnati published new guidelines for what priests could do with children. It prohibits big hugs, lap-sitting and putting children on one’s shoulder or back, as well as bans on kissing, tickling or wrestling.
  
  
  
  
  Sister D’Arienzo, a nun for 57 years and a member of the Religious Sisters of Mercy in Brooklyn, N.Y., has worked with men on death row as well as the families of murder victims. That experience led her to the idea of looking at the possibility of reconciliation with fallen priests. As she states in the America article, “Holding onto anger has been likened to taking a sip of poison every day - not enough to kill, but more than enough to debilitate.”
  
  
  
  
  She takes care to point out that her first concern is for the victims and their loved ones. And that anyone trying to bring the message of forgiveness and reconciliation - a core part of the Christian faith - must do so delicately. “Words that are meant to comfort and console can further aggravate and ignite.” She also adds one point that is more important: forgiveness does not mean forgetting or letting the perpetrator escape punishment.
  
  
  
  
  I spoke to Sister Camille on Tuesday to try to try to get a better understanding of her views.
  
  
  
  
  Q.
  How did you come to this idea of seeking some kind of reconciliation with sexual abusers?
  
  
  
  
  A.
  I worked as a spiritual advisor for a man on death row in Indiana. After a couple of years of doing that I thought, I should really be doing something for victims. Eight years ago, I started having annual services for families of murder victims at our Mother House. Last year we had about 80 people come, most of whom who had lost a son to gunshots. For all the people who have been coming all these years, only two called for the death penalty for their sons’ murderers. Because I have been involved with the death penalty, I have this sense that all murderers are not the same. There are some that are pathologically insane and others who commit in a time of passion. That sparked my belief that those who have been accused of sexual molestation are not all on the same plane.
  
  
  
  
  Q.
  Do you envision a priest guilty of abuse ever being brought back into the service of the Church?
  
  
  
  
  A.
  It depends. Did leadership know and did nothing?
  Was he a many-time offender because of that blunder by the Church Leaders? Or was it something no-one new about that happened during one short time in his life and he never did it again and has an unblemished record of 20 years since. There’s no one-size-fits-all in any situation. It is obvious that some have also not been given the right help by the Church and their disease ignored and never delt with medically.
  That has to be taken into consideration
  . Proper medical care can cure this disease. Perhaps that priest could be brought back in some capacity. Never around children but maybe in a retirement home or a monastery. I don’t have the answer. What I have is great sadness with what is now: that these priests are living with a spiritual death sentence.
  
  
  
  
  Q.
  You say you feel a tremendous sadness over this. Many people are not going to understand that.
  
  
  
  
  A.
  My first sadness is for the victim and for those who love the victim and feel betrayed. That is paramount. I have another sadness, though. There seems to be neither the wisdom nor the courage in the leadership of the Church to encourage compassion for the sinner, for the one who has done this horrible thing. And of course, I am as sorry for the predator who has a sexual addiction, as I would be for an alcoholic or a dope addict. Because there is an illness. There’s a whole swath of abusers who are sick. That’s one kind of concern for people who are ill. And another concern for those who had brief encounters in which they perpetrated evil on an innocent victim and who recognize that sinfulness and have repented and amended their ways and have done the best that they can to live good moral lives after the fall. What more can we ask of a human being?
  
  
  
  
  My primary concern is that no child should suffer what the other children have suffered. That is one of my concerns with the priests who are abandoned, who are in disgrace - the very misery and shame that they feel might move them to do more of the same evil. Because no one has any hope for them. Or any encouragement for them. It seems to me you allow the evil to further fester if a person thinks that he is not capable of living a better life because that’s what society has told them.
  
  
  
  
  Q.
  Can a mere mortal forgive this kind sin?
  
  
  
  
  A.
  My hope is that someone reading the article will have the grace and the wisdom to know when and with whom to broach the topic of forgiveness. I know that words meant to console and comfort can further ignite and aggravate victims. You can make a case for slience in every horror the world has ever known. We have histories of silence. Those who speak out are really setting themselves up for misunderstanding and anger. And that’s not at all what one wants.
  
  
  
  Q.
  Can you talk about the notion of forgiveness? Many say the ability to forgive, even in extreme situations, is fundamental to the gospel message.
  
  
  
  
  A.
  [Forgiveness] is in my spirituality. People hear God’s teaching in different ways. There is the scriptural mandate that “to whom much is forgiven of that one much is required.” Some of us had a deeper and broader experience of religion and its impact: the good and not-so-good of it. For me to be silent was not appropriate. One of the most important things is that not everyone heals at the same rate or that everybody is ready for whatever medicine is available. To go too soon into someone who is hurting is to inflict greater suffering. And that’s one of my concerns. But is there a way for a caring community to help the person who needs healing?
  
  
  
  
  Q.
  What do you hope to accomplish by talking about this?
  
  
  
  A.
  It’s a twin hope. I cannot separate these hopes. One is that the person who has been hurt will consider extending forgiveness or at least to pray for the grace to want to forgive. And the one who has caused the pain will also experience forgiveness."
  
  
  
  

 

 

[Bishadi]

Seems making decisions on such a subject is tough for many.

 

Even dejavu, when some do not find the answers they seek.....

 

for example:

 

 

Q. Do you envision a priest guilty of abuse ever being brought back into the service of the Church?

A. It depends. Was he a many-time offender or was it something that happened during one short time in his life and he never did it again and has an unblemished record of 20 years since. There’s no one-size-fits-all in any situation. Perhaps that priest could be brought back in some capacity. Never around children but maybe in a retirement home or a monastery. I don’t have the answer. What I have is great sadness with what is now: that these priests are living with a spiritual death sentence.

 

 

asking a question of such magnitude and the answer shared is

 

"i don't have the answer"

 

is because that ability to judge within the capacity of truth, pure compassion or honesty is not there.

 

'balance' shares that if you want the roller coaster ride, you have to climb to the top first but to ride down a hole don't expect someone to carry you up.

 

So as mentioned; the pedophile and the perpetrators of inconsistant doctrine are one of the same; they rape the meak of what is true.

 

me personally; not very forgiving of the corrupt... such that if awareness exists and they still abuse....... ouch!

 

Karma is something each prepare for themselves. Each live in what they do!

[suchandra]

 

Seems making decisions on such a subject is tough for many.

 

Even dejavu, when some do not find the answers they seek.....

 

for example:

 

asking a question of such magnitude and the answer shared is

 

"i don't have the answer"

 

is because that ability to judge within the capacity of truth, pure compassion or honesty is not there.

 

'balance' shares that if you want the roller coaster ride, you have to climb to the top first but to ride down a hole don't expect someone to carry you up.

 

So as mentioned; the pedophile and the perpetrators of inconsistant doctrine are one of the same; they rape the meak of what is true.

 

me personally; not very forgiving of the corrupt... such that if awareness exists and they still abuse....... ouch!

 

Karma is something each prepare for themselves. Each live in what they do!

Hate the sin and not the sinner - is rather meant for minor breach of regulations like forgetting to offer at Radhastami a preparation made with plums, since Srimati Radharani likes plums very much. Or having forgotten to put on tilak once in a while.

When however a charismatic personality takes a seat on the parampara's vyasasana, manages to initiate 3000 people by stating he's duly authorized by the council of elders and at one points outs himself as neophyte deviant, is this a peccadillo, harmless?

Of course you can explain almost anything by quoting from Bhagavad-gita, dualities like summer and winter have to be tolerated, if it's getting cold cover yourself with a woolen pullover.

If you suffer by having accepted the wrong person, someone who knew that he's not a master but a servant but pretended to be so, learn to live with this suffering like Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur when having taken initiation from Bipin Bihari Goswami but never even mentioned this mistake with even one word.

However, Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur wasn't joining an institution by becoming a disciple of Bipin Bihari Goswami and that institution also advertising people to get initiation from their authorized diksa-gurus.

At that time there weren't Vaishnava institutions and therefore no such thing as domino effect of many people being involved.

Since we live in the material world with lots of characters who are inclined to imitate and purposefully exploit loopholes the lawbook has that option to especially punish such things more strongly which might be repeated again and again to achieve a limitation of damage.

And not to support that more and more people are victimized.

For example what we have now and is rarely mentioned - at least three hundred self-proclaimed persons outside the institutions who present themselves as genuine parampara gurus due the Vaishnava institutions example.

Even non-Vaishnavas getting the idea to pose as God's representative and seeking for followers inspired by the Vaishnava institutions.

At least Sri Isopanisad doesnt support this idea that one should accept the sinner and only hate the sin in such case.

Isopanisad rather says, those who mislead by posing as teachers enter the darkest region of the universe.

[CCC]

Once a person was mistreated and someone said to him, please forgive him. and then he replied: Why? I did nothing, if he want to be forgiven, he must come here say that he is sorry and i will forgive him.

[Bishadi]

 

Once a person was mistreated and someone said to him, please forgive him. and then he replied: Why? I did nothing, if he want to be forgiven, he must come here say that he is sorry and i will forgive him.

 

being responsible!

 

That is the beauty of the truly honest, the compassionate; the children of Love.

[AncientMariner]

I believe in pretty much absolute aloofness and detachment from these sort of things in redards to other peoples sin unless you are especially empowered that you have ability to change such things.

[Ashvatama]

 

I believe in pretty much absolute aloofness and detachment from these sort of things in redards to other peoples sin unless you are especially empowered that you have ability to change such things.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Patita pavana Sri Caitanya

 

 

[Bishadi]

 

I believe in pretty much absolute aloofness and detachment from these sort of things in redards to other peoples sin unless you are especially empowered that you have ability to change such things.

 

that shares wisdom of the elders; humble observance unattached to self

 

the bird does the same thing

 

it shares how even we as the species of compassion can knowingly remove our own opinions when we comprehend 'not knowing the absolute'

 

but note the capacity of the prideful using the atrocities of others to create an emotional attachment to further the deception of their solutions?

 

typical of kali that many live in tamas (the period of self; enables the selfish to flourish)

 

 

 

 

Krishna conscious; pure bhakti in seeking the knowledge of truth! The commitment to the collective over the pride of the self.

 

Responsibility is requisite of truth; beliefs remove the absolution of each choice.

 

Be responsible to every action imposed; live in each choice!

[Ashvatama]

 

Once a person was mistreated and someone said to him, please forgive him. and then he replied: Why? I did nothing, if he want to be forg iven, he must come here say that he is sorry and i will forgive him.