Suffering.

[alwayslearning]

Hello all,

 

I would like to hear the general Vaisnava perspective regarding suffering, with scriptural references, if possible. I'd like to know the opinions of Vaisnavas who are a part of ISKCON or Gaudiya Math as well as those outside of it.

 

1. Does suffering happen? Or is it an illusion? What is the explanation for the experience of the feeling or sensation of suffering amongst sentient beings in existence?

 

2. Would Krishna allow us to suffer in order for us to not be aversed to Him (so that we would cease suffering and live in Reality (in love for Him or in not-aversion, surrender to Him)), even if it is not truly Reality to suffer, would He allow us to sense suffering?

 

3. With Krishna's omnipotence, can He create an indestructible object? Omnipotence would require that ability, yet not allow for any object to be outside of His ability to destroy. Is omnipotence, therefore, even a possibility?

[bija]

 

What is the explanation for the experience of the feeling or sensation of suffering amongst sentient beings in existence?

Either we are identifying with mind and body, which is always full of duality. Or we will be identifying as soul.

 

As we begin to self-realize these things will become very evident to us, by observation.

 

<embed src="http://blip.tv/play/AdKCOwA" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="350" height="240">

[alwayslearning]

Hi Skippy,

 

Thanks for the response, but I can't see the video. I was curious, though, why we would be allowed to falsely identify, if that led to suffering? Surely Krishna doesn't want us to suffer, and therefore we couldn't ever suffer via his omnipotence?

[bija]

Why cant you see the video?

 

We are spirit, and spirit has potency, and potency has independence. We can choose to enjoy seperately from God or to serve God.

 

We are minute therefore are prone to be covered by the maya shakti. If we identify with spirit potency (svarupa shakti), we reconnect to our suitable function (intrinsic constitution). Harmony.

 

Disharmony is due to wishing to be seperate. The real truth is actually Supreme Non-Dual Absolute reality.

 

Yes 'always learning' this world is a prison house to rectify rebellious souls.

 

Affluent people may say, that is nonsense. That this world is for enjoyment. But after their material opulence is used up (as all is temporary here) and suffering comes to a great extent, views may change. So in a sense suffering is mercy.

 

I will post some scripture reference soon.

[alwayslearning]

I understand that, but that answer requires one of two things:

 

1. That we are outside of Krishna's control. You said that we would reconnect to a suitable function, but that implies that there is something spiritually dysfunctional in Krishna's Totality in the first place.

 

2. That we are inside of Krishna's control and He allows us to feel suffering as a result of our separation. You are saying that Krishna is therefore neutral to our happiness and wellbeing, because He would allow us to be seperate and therefore suffer.

[bija]

 

Full e-book here

 

 

 

...Prakriti, maya, pradhan, prapancha, and avidya are different names of the same principle according to its different phases and attributes. Maya is not an independent shakti from the supreme svarup-shakti. She is simply a devotee serving God executing His orders to reform those who become ungrateful to Him. Maya is in charge of God’s house of correction, and her energy is a reflection of God’s supreme power. Those jivas who, in abusing their free will, forgot that they were eternal servants of the Lord and thought of enjoying for themselves, were captured by Maya for their penal servitude and correction.

Maya has three attributes: sattva, rajas, and tamas. Those attributes are just like chains used to bind the ungrateful souls. Maya then applies a double casing on the spiritual form of the soul. The casing is described by the words linga and sthul. The mayik existence has twenty-four substances. The five elements (earth, water, fire, air, and ether), the five properties (sound, touch, sight, taste, and smell), the five knowledge-acquiring senses (eye, ear, nose, tongue, and skin), and the five working senses (the hands, legs, speech, genital, and organ for evacuation); these twenty form the sthul or outer-casing. The mind, intelligence, contaminated consciousness, and false ego comprise the linga-deha or inner-casing. Then, after encasing the spiritual form of the soul, Maya employs the fallen souls in different kinds of work. Mayik work is composed of karma, akarma, and vikarma. Karma is conventially good action done to obtain punya or virtue, such as performance of duties enjoined by the varnashram dharma of the Smartas. Karma elevates one to the heavenly realm. Akarma (failure to perform one’s duty) places one in an unpleasant state on Earth, and vikarma (sinful or criminal actions) hurls souls down to hellish life. The fallen souls travel from body to body with their linga-deha, doing karma or vikarma, rising up to the heavens and again coming down at the exhaustion of their virtues, going down to hell, and after suffering punishment, again rising up to the platform of fruitive work. Thus, the state of the fallen souls is deplorable to the extreme degree, as they sometimes suffer massacre and murder, and sometimes enjoy as princes. The material world is, therefore, a prison or a house of correction, and not a place for enjoyment, as some people assert.

Jivas are traveling on the path of mayik existence from time immemorial, experiencing all sorts of pleasure and pain. How can one become free from this unpleasant condition? Religious rituals, performance of duty, yoga, development of powers of the body and the mind, sankhya (empiric philosophical analysis), simple knowledge that one is a spiritual being, and vairagya, giving up all enjoyments in the world, are not the proper means by which one can actually achieve what he or she genuinely wants. When a person comes in contact with a Vaishnava whose heart has been melted by hari-bhakti-rasa, it is then that he or she may desire to imbibe the sweet principle of bhakti and follow in the holy footsteps of the devotee by constantly practicing krishna-bhakti. They slowly wash off the mayik condition, and in the end, after obtaining their true nature, enjoy the sweetest unalloyed rasa, which is the ultimate attainment of the soul. Satsanga, or the company of spiritual people, is the only means to obtain the ultimate object of life. Bhakti is a principle which comes from soul to soul, and like electricity or magnetism in gross matter, it conducts itself from one congenial soul to another. The principle of bhakti is sincere, entire dependence on the Supreme Lord in every act of life. The principle of duty is not part of bhakti, as it acts on the basis of gratitude for favors obtained, and it involves obligation, which is contrary to natural love.

The principle of morality in the mortal world, though good in its own way, scarcely brings spiritual results in the end. Faith in the supreme beauty of the Lord, a desire for the eternal unselfish service of that Supreme Being, and a consequent repulsion of every other thought of pleasure or self-aggrandizement are the three principles which constitute sraddha, or actual hankering after bhakti. Bhakti by nature is ananya or exclusive. Is it chance, then, which brings bhakti? No, sukriti or good work is the prime moving principle. Good work is of two types. One type, passing as morality, includes those works that bring virtue and aggrandizement. The other type of good work includes all activities that have a tendency to bring about spiritual progress. This latter type of good work or sukriti brings one in contact with a sincere Vaishnava from whom one can initially imbibe sraddha or faith in spirit; and being then capable of receiving bhakti, one obtains the seed of devotional service from that Vaishnava, who is actually the person’s guru....

[bija]

 

1. That we are outside of Krishna's control. You said that we would reconnect to a suitable function, but that implies that there is something spiritually dysfunctional in Krishna's Totality in the first place.

 

2. That we are inside of Krishna's control and He allows us to feel suffering as a result of our separation. You are saying that Krishna is therefore neutral to our happiness and wellbeing, because He would allow us to be seperate and therefore suffer.

There is no dysfunction in our independence as spirit. Spirit by nature has this free will. Real independence as minute sparks, is dependence upon the Supreme...surrender.

 

Transcendental reality and personality is different than relative morals etc of the conditioned mind. Projecting morals upon God, or projecting our ideas of what God is from our limited ideas...is not what God is.

 

Man has said for milleniums. Why suffering? Man has also said God not exist, because if God was love suffering would not exist?

[alwayslearning]

 

She is simply a devotee serving God executing His orders to reform those who become ungrateful to Him.

If we are capable of being ungrateful to Krishna, then that means that we are logically outside of His control. This conception of free will is not in accordance with the idea of omnipotence. Basically the first two paragraphs of what you included state that we are outside of Krishna's Control, and need to be "broken" in a sense to not be aversed to Him again, through very indirect ways, which is also not in accordance with omnipotence. In fact, Krishna employs Maya in this service, when, if God were omnipotent, He would simply say, "You are not aversed to Me," and the jiva would not be aversed to Him. Basically we have existed outside of Krishna's control in the form of avidya, ignorance, or aversion since "time immemorial" according to the above transcript. Why?

 

Why would we be allowed to suffer, even in the form of avidya, ignorance or aversion? How can the Controller allow this? Unless it is in Krishna's Will that we are to suffer. Meaning that Krishna wills us to suffer. When, in reality, if Krishna were omnipotent He would reign us in instantaneously, without all of this extreneous circumstance, whether we are independent or not.

 

I am not saying Krishna is not omnipotent, I am simply discussing this issue.

[alwayslearning]

 

There is no dysfunction in our independence as spirit. Spirit by nature has this free will. Real independence as minute sparks, is dependence upon the Supreme...surrender.

 

Transcendental reality and personality is different than relative morals etc of the conditioned mind. Projecting morals upon God, or projecting our ideas of what God is from our limited ideas...is not what God is.

 

Man has said for milleniums. Why suffering? Man has also said God not exist, because if God was love suffering would not exist

 

Prabhupada said that the purpose of human life is enquiry into the Absolute Truth. That is what this discussion is.

 

Are we to accept it on faith, then? Prabhupada also says that Bhakti is a science with no loose ends, and we should never believe in anything that is illogical. I'm simply asking what the logic is of the All-Powerful God allowing us to suffer through aversion and lack of surrender, when, as All-Powerful, it could be solved instantaneously?

[alwayslearning]

Your argument is that Krishna is enforcing dualities... that He is saying that we can be aversed to Him, and as a result we will suffer. He is not only allowing us to suffer, but is the Controller of the entire stage in which suffering is taking place. Unless you argue that he is not the Controller? That He lacks Absolute Control over existence?

[bija]

 

In fact, Krishna employs Maya in this service, when, if God were omnipotent, He would simply say, "You are not aversed to Me," and the jiva would not be aversed to Him. Basically we have existed outside of Krishna's control in the form of avidya, ignorance, or aversion since "time immemorial" according to the above transcript. Why?

Would you prefer we were robots, with no soul function?

 

Or would you instead be grateful for the gift of life and ever-new awakening?

 

(discussion is nice:))

[alwayslearning]

No, I wouldn't prefer. It doesn't have to do with my preference. It has to do with the most fundamental question of Divinity.

 

Yet, in actuality, if my being a robot would mean that I would never experience suffering, then yes, I'll take robot.

 

And why would we have to necessarily be robots, anyway? Why not be beings in which loss, pain and suffering is simply kept away from us, with Krishna as the Protector of All Beings? Does lack of suffering necessitate being a robot?

 

This is not an argument. You are saying suffering = individuality, not suffering = robot. Well, you also say that not being ignorant of Krishna and engaging in Bhakti is the cessation of suffering. So is the Bhakta a robot, by that logic?

[alwayslearning]

This is the simplest, most fundamental and most initial question of Divinity... there has to be a more logical answer ready.

[bija]

 

And why would we have to necessarily be robots, anyway? Why not be beings in which loss, pain and suffering is simply kept away from us

Lets face facts...your ideal reality is not happening in this material world. You must find your hearts way, and find your peace if not already attained.

 

I have presented a simple philisophical outlook in response to your request. If that is too simplistic...then seek the complex. It is a huge universe;).

 

I appreciate your questions, but maybe you need to seek your own answers. Some place to cultivate your faith, that enhances your unique disposition.

 

y.s.

[bija]

 

This is not an argument. You are saying suffering = individuality

 

There is no need to fear argument.

 

I am saying suffering is misidentification (and misuse of soul potency) - incorrectly identifying as the mind and body.

 

Have you read Bhagavad Gita? It says we are soul. It is a very simple book on the surface.

 

Dear 'always' we could discuss for eternity like this, as a friend I would say...seek that which satisfies your soul. We are all unique.

 

All the best to you - is my wish.

[alwayslearning]

"Just go away" is not an answer to this question.

 

It's OK if you don't have a logical answer. I can accept that there is no logical answer to it, I was only asking if anyone had scripture answers to this particular question of how God can be expressed as both all-powerful and less-than-all-powerful simultaneously, or at least as all-powerful and willing our suffering.

[alwayslearning]

All-powerful means that all of existence (including every soul) is in His control. Period.

 

In this context it is His will that we suffer.

 

Your answers are, at the most basic level, regurgitated Christian duality theory.

[bija]

Let me re-phrase then...suffering originates due to seeing all things outside of ourself as 'objects' for our own gratification.

 

When we learn service mood the other opens to us. Then we begin to see the other. Even God is not an object, when that spiritual reality chooses it will open. It is not for our gratification. For the gaudiya, devotional service (service mood) means end of suffering and awakening of true soul function.

[bija]

 

I was only asking if anyone had scripture answers to this particular question of how God can be expressed as both all-powerful and less-than-all-powerful simultaneously

Lord Caitanya used the word 'acintya' which means inconceivable. That apparent contradictions can simultaneously exist within the divine person.

 

Acintya-bhedabheda-tattva. Inconceivable simultaneous oneness and difference.

 

You may read all the philosphy to your hearts satisfaction here (under 'all scriptures'):

 

http://nitaaiveda.com

[bija]

I have been re-reading your questions and hope someone can give you answers. Please forgive me for not spending time going through each point one by one.

 

I have been very sick with virus and fever the last days and am low in energy, and have not been giving close attention to your questions. Sorry.

 

your servant.

[Bishadi]

 

Hello all,

 

I would like to hear the general Vaisnava perspective regarding suffering, with scriptural references, if possible. I'd like to know the opinions of Vaisnavas who are a part of ISKCON or Gaudiya Math as well as those outside of it.

 

1. Does suffering happen? Or is it an illusion? What is the explanation for the experience of the feeling or sensation of suffering amongst sentient beings in existence?

 

2. Would Krishna allow us to suffer in order for us to not be aversed to Him (so that we would cease suffering and live in Reality (in love for Him or in not-aversion, surrender to Him)), even if it is not truly Reality to suffer, would He allow us to sense suffering?

 

3. With Krishna's omnipotence, can He create an indestructible object? Omnipotence would require that ability, yet not allow for any object to be outside of His ability to destroy. Is omnipotence, therefore, even a possibility?

 

 

that form of logic requires comprehension of entanglement in the sense that the beginning is entangled to the future; for example; the collective conscious begets the beginning but that hasn't happened yet.

 

 

For a simple sence of logic to the reasoning; suffering is to learn; so it is the process of education. (evolution of knowledge)

 

Like a child going to school 'suffering' to comprehend life but life in total is the process of existence.

[alwayslearning]

 

Let me re-phrase then...suffering originates due to seeing all things outside of ourself as 'objects' for our own gratification.

 

OK, if a parent is watching a child stick his/her hand into a fire, that parent will prevent the child from being burned, no matter how much the parent may think, "Oh, if she gets burned, she'll learn her lesson." It would be sociopathic and sick for the parent to just sit back and watch.

 

Krishna is like our parent, except He's omnipotent (otherwise He couldn't be God). He's ALWAYS watching, He ALWAYS has the ability at any moment to intervene and stop our suffering.

 

But He doesn't.

 

You continue to answer my question from the perspective of why we're suffering. That's not exactly what I'm asking.

 

I'm asking why God is willing us to suffer when He has the ability to stop it at any moment.

[alwayslearning]

 

Acintya-bhedabheda-tattva. Inconceivable simultaneous oneness and difference.

 

I'm already familiar with this concept. It's a cop-out.

 

Human suffering is the most fundamental experience of human life, from which we develop spirituality. If we didn't suffer we would never even think about developing spirituality. However, if we cannot answer why a loving, omnipotent God would allow us to suffer in the first place, then there's a basic illogical aspect to the entire religion.

 

If a boss came up to you and started beating on you, would you continue to work for him, if you had the choice? If someone came up to you and asked, "Why do you continue to work for that abusive boss?" Would you answer them with, "Because he's loveable!"

 

This is the mentality of the abused wife who constantly forgives her husband.

[alwayslearning]

 

that form of logic requires comprehension of entanglement in the sense that the beginning is entangled to the future; for example; the collective conscious begets the beginning but that hasn't happened yet.

 

 

For a simple sence of logic to the reasoning; suffering is to learn; so it is the process of education. (evolution of knowledge)

 

Like a child going to school 'suffering' to comprehend life but life in total is the process of existence.

 

Why do we have to learn? Omnipotence means ALL-POWERFUL, which means that anything our tiny human brains could imagine are not only included in that, but it goes infinitely beyond our largest possible speculation.

 

God can simply MAKE us wise from the beginning. There is no possible reason an ALL-POWERFUL God would have to "put us throught the hoops" to 'learn us.' Why would All-Mighty use a secondary, long, involved and PAINFUL (to the sentient being, almost ETERNALLY, unimaginably painful) educational system? Our brains are chemical produced to be ignorant to be filled with knowledge, why not chemically produced to be filled with knowledge? Are you telling me that that is outside of Krishna's ability?

 

Everyone is telling "Because God isn't powerful enough." There has to be an answer outside of this.

 

Why are we born into the physical at all, if the pure spiritual existence is so wonderful? That would also require Krishna deciding that it be so. Choosing for us to suffer, when He has the power to do otherwise.

[alwayslearning]

 

that form of logic requires comprehension of entanglement in the sense that the beginning is entangled to the future; for example; the collective conscious begets the beginning but that hasn't happened yet.

 

You're applying your human rationale to excuse the truth of reality. The truth of reality is that if I came up to you and stabbed a knife through your foot, you would hop around howling in pain while I discussed the finer philosophical aspects of time.

 

And Krishna could, as omnipotent, have immediately stopped me from hurting you.