Suffering.

[alwayslearning]

any loving human mother would choose to educate her child without her child having to experience pain. it's just that she doesn't have omnipotent power to prevent that all of the time. but Krishna does, and are we really supposed to conceive of a God that is less humane than a simple human parent?

[Bishadi]

 

OK, if a parent is watching a child stick his/her hand into a fire, that parent will prevent the child from being burned, no matter how much the parent may think, "Oh, if she gets burned, she'll learn her lesson." It would be sociopathic and sick for the parent to just sit back and watch.

 

Krishna is like our parent, except He's omnipotent (otherwise He couldn't be God). He's ALWAYS watching, He ALWAYS has the ability at any moment to intervene and stop our suffering.

 

But He doesn't.

 

You continue to answer my question from the perspective of why we're suffering. That's not exactly what I'm asking.

 

I'm asking why God is willing us to suffer when He has the ability to stop it at any moment.

 

you answered your own question above or at least stated the answer to the flawed logic you present..... One minute a parent would have to be sociopathic, the next we see it (per se suffering) and the god-idea of krisna has the power to stop it and doesn't

 

something told me there was an inner bias to your question

 

this thread was not to combine knowledge and entice thinking but a preprogramed, predetermination is being used to work on folks to pigeon hole the answer you want

[Bishadi]

 

 

Human suffering is the most fundamental experience of human life, from which we develop spirituality.

 

Learning.

[Bishadi]

 

Why do we have to learn?

you tell me...

 

'alwayslearning'

 

 

 

Omnipotence means ALL-POWERFUL,

no such thing as Omnitpotence........

 

 

God can simply MAKE us wise from the beginning.

so there's your proof that is unless he is like the socio... you mentioned above of course

 

Point is, God is all that is, so in a sense to know all that is, then we are preprogramed.

[alwayslearning]

I don't have an inner bias, Bishadi. I want to solve this obvious contradiction to become closer with God. I am being reacted to negatively on this forum because I am using intellect and logic and simply not relying on blind faith.

 

 

One minute a parent would have to be sociopathic, the next we see it (per se suffering) and the god-idea of krisna has the power to stop it and doesn't

 

Please just tell me why Krishna would not stop of from suffering and why an omnipotent God would have to fall back on secondary tactics of putting us through suffering in order to learn when, as omnipotent, He could instantly rearrange all of existence effortlessly, resulting in our loving Him, being happy and being full of knowledge? Why, with omnipotence, would we be allowed to 'fall' into physical existence at all? Why would physical existence exist the way it is, entailing suffering? If prema is the greatest goal, if a serving relationship is the greatest goal and the greatest joy, why would He ever want us away from that joy if it is what is best for us?

[alwayslearning]

No such thing as all-powerful? God is not All-Powerful? He is not in control of everything? Including us?

[alwayslearning]

Every argument I've received in response to my question puts God at the whim of natural laws, not as the All-Powerful Source and Controller of those laws, and limits the definition of God greatly.

[Bishadi]

 

You're applying your human rationale to excuse the truth of reality.

quite reverse; seems the material being offered in not pure rational but reality being observed and represented.

 

Seems calling parent who allows the child to put the hand into the fire and watch, is human rational. Meaning if God was on a thrown omnipotent and isolated looking down on us all, then he would be that parent.

 

When to comprehend the literal in physical experience than human rational is left to the side with opinions and truth stands all by itself.

 

 

The truth of reality is that if I came up to you and stabbed a knife through your foot, you would hop around howling in pain while I discussed the finer philosophical aspects of time.

 

And Krishna could, as omnipotent, have immediately stopped me from hurting you.

 

perhaps the lesson was to stay away from the selfish with knives, perhaps that is where the swastika on the bottom of the foot comes from; you know to be all lotus footed leaving the foot print of where i have been

[alwayslearning]

My intention is not to insult anyone's beliefs. This is a problem of religious elitism. I am going through a legitimate spiritual crisis, and I'm being responded to with condescension.

[alwayslearning]

 

Meaning if God was on a thrown omnipotent and isolated looking down on us all, then he would be that parent.

 

Omnipotent does not mean isolated. True omnipotence means All-Powerful and All-Pervasive, that there is Total Power interacting with us on the most intimate of levels at all times, in all circumstances, always. And splitting hairs semantically doesn't argue the sense of suffering. Whether real or not, we experience real pain. And with omnipotence, that pain is being allowed to happen. I am not logically trying to contain God, I am merely logically explaining what each of us experiences frequently and trying to figure out the relationship of God to our subjective experience in a way that is logical rather than just blind.

[alwayslearning]

I'm trying to figure out if one thing or the other has to give: All-Powerful or All-Loving in order to accomadate the reality of sensing pain. Unless you are still arguing that it's just "tough love." Why would there have to be any "tough love"? Is that really the best All-Powerful can do?

[Bishadi]

 

I don't have an inner bias, Bishadi. I want to solve this obvious contradiction to become closer with God.

 

then define God in your words (opinion) to level the playing field

 

 

I am being reacted to negatively on this forum because I am using intellect and logic and simply not relying on blind faith.

the opening post was fun to me, i enjoy thinkers like kids on the play ground; enjoying life.

 

 

Please just tell me why Krishna would not stop of from suffering

that is one i had asked myself 30 years ago, until realizing God was not separate from us on some thrown like Zeus with a magic wand

[alwayslearning]

A mother has influence over her child, therefore she uses it to protect the child from pain. God's influence is TOTAL, meaning that He controls environment (spiritual and physical), beings (spiritual and physical) and actions (spiritual and physical). Even if you argue that the third, actions, are independent, He still has to control the first two to be God. And controlling the first two would be sufficient to remove any possibility of suffering.

[Bishadi]

 

My intention is not to insult anyone's beliefs. This is a problem of religious elitism. I am going through a legitimate spiritual crisis, and I'm being responded to with condescension.

 

not insulting me

 

and likewise the majority on the globe is having the same issue

 

hence; the last pages are being written

 

please, continue.....

[alwayslearning]

Bishadi, I'd like to discuss ideas, not fall onto petty condescensions.

 

My conception of what God must be in order to qualify as such is simply this: the Controller of all things. This does not make God a seperate entity sitting on a throne, but an extremely intimate and direct entity.

[alwayslearning]

The attitude you express does not often sound like the Bhakta Krishna describes as being free from pride, ego and compassionate towards all beings.

 

 

and likewise the majority on the globe is having the same issue

 

hence; the last pages are being written

 

 

This is Christian elitism.

[Bishadi]

 

A mother has influence over her child, therefore she uses it to protect the child from pain. God's influence is TOTAL, meaning that He controls environment (spiritual and physical), beings (spiritual and physical) and actions (spiritual and physical). Even if you argue that the third, actions, are independent, He still has to control the first two to be God. And controlling the first two would be sufficient to remove any possibility of suffering.

 

Control is a percieved of our species.

 

but that 'total' is God himself. i.e..... all mass, all energy, all time; ONE; the total.....

 

that math to share that in a single script is the name of God.

 

We exist within what could be considered the BODY of God.

 

No dude on a thrown. NO isolation from existence.

 

What learning is performing is the combining of the entangled existence becoming aware of itself.

 

We as consciousness are Him experiencing Life!

[Bishadi]

 

The attitude you express does not often sound like the Bhakta Krishna describes as being free from pride, ego and compassionate towards all beings.

that is the problem with speaking in the first; you so happen to have bumped into the fool who has actually done the homework.

 

No religion; absolute truth!

 

meaning the religions will be over before i am done

 

 

This is Christian elitism.

not really as the truth reveals the anti christ.... as a man who shared the knowledge removing the religions once and for all.

 

[kaisersose]

Since you specifically asked for Vaishnava opinions in your OP, I was checking myself from posting. But since you have not received anything satisfactory so far, here is my take. If you are looking for Vaishnava responses only, then skip my response.

 

 

My intention is not to insult anyone's beliefs. This is a problem of religious elitism. I am going through a legitimate spiritual crisis, and I'm being responded to with condescension.

 

And I am afraid that is all you are gonna get. One or more cliched copouts such as the below. It is surprising how many people are happy enough to accept one of these lines and stop their entire line of questioning.

 

1. We cannot understand his plan.

2. We should not ask such questions.

3. We should have faith.

4. We are here to learn*

5. You must be having an ulterior motive.

6. You are a Mayavadi in disguise.

 

* This one is funny. What are we learning? What is the starving infant in Africa learning? The only thing it will learn is that there is no one to feed it and it does not have a clue to why it is existing on this planet.

 

The fact is, there is no answer to your question. A compassionate God would not create carnivorous animals. An all-loving God would not create a system where little kids starve to painful death in Africa while someone else somewhere else, indulges in a $15000 a night (taxes extra) hotel suite. No matter how much the religious book shout the praises of this God, hard facts that we witness on a daily basis, override all that poetic nonsense. So more aptly, the question should be why did God create the concept of suffering instead of why does God look on while people suffer - devotee and non-devotee alike?

 

Logic and spirituality do not go together. Spirituality requires the adherent to dismiss logic, stop thinking and just follow. When a question cannot be answered, it requires you to invent an excuse and move on as you can see from the responses above. In short, the root of your crisis is in trying to reconcile between logic and spirituality and as long as you attempt that, the crisis will persist.

 

Cheers

[alwayslearning]

 

2. We should not ask such questions.

 

Religion is a fashion and not a belief if the answer to a question is "don't ask."

[alwayslearning]

What none of you seem to see, from your perspective of insecurity, is that I am not challenging your religion. I am not challening any devotee, non-devotee nor God Himself. I am simply asking a question.

 

So far the best answer I've gotten is "Don't Ask."

 

Are you truly in a service mood to Krishna by expressing Vaisnavism in this way?

[Bishadi]

 

Since you specifically asked for Vaishnava opinions in your OP, I was checking myself from posting. But since you have not received anything satisfactory so far, here is my take. If you are looking for Vaishnava responses only, then skip my response.

 

 

And I am afraid that is all you are gonna get. One or more cliched copouts such as the below. It is surprising how many people are happy enough to accept one of these lines and stop their entire line of questioning.

 

1. We cannot understand his plan.

the collective conscious begets the beginning..... now you can understand.

 

 

2. We should not ask such questions.

then knowledge would never evolve; meaning zero progress, zero contributions and zero awareness or the ability of compassion

 

 

3. We should have faith.

In realizing as knowledge has evolved, that one day, the absolute truth WILL exist..... that is the only pure faith every soul on earth can always maintain; that one day the children will know the truth

 

 

4. We are here to learn*

Hence why the contributers were born throughout history; for the evolution of knowledge to continue

 

 

5. You must be having an ulterior motive.

He is mad and that same bleeding of the heart is rampant all over the globe

 

 

6. You are a Mayavadi in disguise.

Perhaps.... but that is labeling

 

 

* This one is funny. What are we learning?

the truth

 

 

What is the starving infant in Africa learning?

have you asked? Perhaps they are teaching.

 

 

The fact is, there is no answer to your question. A compassionate God would not create carnivorous animals.

are you saying compassion is non existent or perhaps the reality of meat eating contradicts your belief system?

 

 

Logic and spirituality do not go together.

that is the isolation of teachers who choose to remain complacent rather than commit to the duty of contribution to the progression of knowledge.

 

ie.... What did Srila do for much of his life? HE gave of himself for knowledge to progress.

 

 

Spirituality requires the adherent to dismiss logic, stop thinking and just follow.

Like a cow, or sheep? Just fall off the cliff and not be responsible to the next generations. Imagine if every guru taught the such; you wouldn't be on this website, now would you?

 

Simply suggesting don't ask questions and just believe what you are told has got to be the stupidest thing any human alive could ever represent; blatantly put.

 

and the fact is that's not gonna happen.... see the poster 'alwayslearning' and the majority of the children on this earth.

 

It is their world now and the complacent might as well roll over and bury yourself

 

 

 

Bishadi, I'd like to discuss ideas, not fall onto petty condescensions.

 

My conception of what God must be in order to qualify as such is simply this: the Controller of all things. This does not make God a seperate entity sitting on a throne, but an extremely intimate and direct entity.

 

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not trying to discount you; so let's be clear.... anyone 'alwayslearning'

 

i am your servant

[bhaktajan]

 

 

Isho-Upanishad

 

 

Mantra Three

asuryä näma te lokä

andhena tamasävåtäù

täàs te pretyäbhigacchanti

ye ke cätma-hano janäù

TRANSLATION

 

 

 

 

 

"The killer of the soul, whoever he may be, must enter into the planets known as the worlds of the faithless, full of darkness and ignorance."

 

 

 

PURPORT

 

 

Human life is distinguished from animal life due to its heavy responsibilities. Those who are cognizant of these responsibilities and who work in that spirit are called suras (godly persons), and those who are neglectful of these responsibilities or who have no information of them are called asuras (demons).

Throughout the universe there are only these two types of human being. In the Åg Veda it is stated that the suras always aim at the lotus feet of the Supreme Lord Viñëu and act accordingly. Their ways are as illuminated as the path of the sun.

Intelligent human beings must always remember that the soul obtains a human form after an evolution of many millions of years in the cycle of transmigration.

The material world is sometimes compared to an ocean, and the human body is compared to a solid boat designed especially to cross this ocean.

The Vedic scriptures and the äcäryas, or saintly teachers, are compared to expert boatmen, and the facilities of the human body are compared to favorable breezes that help the boat ply smoothly to its desired destination. If, with all these facilities, a human being does not fully utilize his life for self-realization, he must be considered ätma-hä, a killer of the soul.

Çré Éçopaniñad warns in clear terms that the killer of the soul is destined to enter into the darkest region of ignorance to suffer perpetually.

. . . The human being is given all facilities for a comfortable life by the laws of nature because the human form of life is more important and valuable than animal life.

. . . the duties human beings have to perform are higher than those of animals, who are always engaged in simply feeding their hungry stomachs. Yet the modern soul-killing civilization has only increased the problems of the hungry stomach.

When we approach a polished animal in the form of a modern civilized man and ask him to take interest in self-realization, he will say that he simply wants to work to satisfy his stomach and that there is no need of self-realization for a hungry man.

The laws of nature are so cruel, however, that despite his denunciation of the need for self-realization and his eagerness to work hard to fill his stomach, he is always threatened by unemployment.

We are given this human form of life not to work hard like asses, swine and dogs but to attain the highest perfection of life. If we do not care for self-realization, the laws of nature force us to work very hard, even though we may not want to do so. Human beings in this age have been forced to work hard like the asses and bullocks that pull carts.

If a man fails to discharge his duties as a human being, he is forced to transmigrate to the asurya planets and take birth in degraded species of life to work hard in ignorance and darkness.

. . . By simply attempting to realize God, one is guaranteed birth in a wealthy or aristocratic family. But those who do not even make an attempt, who want to be covered by illusion, who are too materialistic and too attached to material enjoyment, must enter into the darkest regions of hell, as confirmed throughout the Vedic literature. Such materialistic asuras sometimes make a show of religion, but their ultimate aim is material prosperity.

The Bhagavad-gétä (16.17–18) rebukes such men by calling them ätma-sambhävita, meaning that they are considered great only on the strength of deception and are empowered by the votes of the ignorant and by their own material wealth. Such asuras, devoid of self-realization and knowledge of éçäväsya, the Lord’s universal proprietorship, are certain to enter into the darkest regions.

The conclusion is that as human beings we are meant not simply for solving economic problems on a tottering platform but for solving all the problems of the material life into which we have been placed by the laws of nature.

[Bishadi]

let's assist with the ability for each to read from themselves

 

 

 

asurya nama te loka andhena tamasa'vrtah |

tamste pretyabhigacchanti ye ke catmahano janah

 

 

 

asurya = of great misery, or belonging to asura-s (demons); nama = niscitametat = thus is certain; te = they, those; loka = worlds; andhena tamasa = nibidandhakarena = of relentless, blinding darkness; avrtah = covered with, enveloped by; tan = (to) them; pretya = upon death; abhigacchanti = fall into, are trapped into; ye ke = those who; atmahanah = yathavad atmajñanamajñatva vaiparityena janantah = having failed to know the (Parama-) Atma correctly, persist in false knowledge only; janah = persons.

 

Meaning:

 

 

The worlds of eternal misery, covered with unremitting darkness, indeed, do they fall into without recourse, they who, having failed to realize the truth about the Lord (in spite of opportunity), persist in false knowledge.

 

 

 

The question now becomes, what is this truth about the Isa that should be realized? The next verse therefore states the character of the Lord

 

 

 

anejadekam manaso javiyo nainaddeva apnuvanpurvamarsat |

taddhavato'nyanatyeti tisthattasminnapo matarisva dadhati

4

 

anejat = not trembling, free of all fear; ekam = one, alone, the primary; manasah = (than) the mind; javiyah = swifter than; na = not; enat = it, this one; devah = the deities headed by Brahma; apnuvat = sakalyena vyajanan = comprehend or know fully; purvam = from before, since beginningless time; arsat = knowing (freely and from His own nature); tad = that [brahman]; dhavatah = those running, moving fast; anyan = others; atyeti = surpasses, overtakes; tisthat = rests, exists, remains; tasmin = in Him, in that Hari; apah = karmani = actions; Matarisva = Mukhya Prana; dadhati = samarpayati = dedicates, offers.

 

(The Supreme is) completely free of fear, for being the primary Being; He is swifter than the mind, and cannot be fully comprehended (even) by the deities (headed by Brahma), while He knows all by His own nature, from beginningless time; though unchanging, staying as-is, He effortlessly overtakes all, no matter how they may run; to that Lord, Mukhya Prana dedicates all the actions performed by all creatures.

 

 

[Bishadi]

 

 

 

 

 

tadejati tannaijati taddure tadvantike |

tadantarasya sarvasya tadu sarvasya bahyatah

5

 

 

tad = tasmat = from him; ejati = bibheti = tremble (in awe or stupefaction); tat = He, Himself; na = (does) not; dure = far off; tadu = tadeva = He alone; antike = near, close by; antah = within, inside of; asya = of this; sarvasya = of all; bahyatah = outside of.

 

 

He causes all to tremble or quake in fear of Him, but He Himself fears none (for being independent); He is very far off (He exists even at infinite distances), and He is also very close by (because He is omnipresent); He is within everyone and everything, and also outside everyone and everything (His presence is all-pervasive).

 

 

 

It has been said that Hari is all-pervasive, the controller of all, and all-powerful. Now, the use of knowing this is clarified

 

 

 

yastu sarvani bhutanyatmanyevanupasyati |

sarvabhutesu catmanam tato na vijugupsate

6

 

yah = (he) who; tu = but, indeed; sarvani = all; bhutani = beings, creatures, objects, atmani = in the Supreme Being; eva = only; anupasyati = excellently beholds, clearly understands; sarva bhutesu = in all beings; ca = and; atmanam = the Lord, the Ruler of the innermost self; tatah = thus, therefore, by reason of; na = (does) not; vijugupsate = wish to hide or seek concealment.

 

 

One who sees all animate and inanimate nature in the Supreme (for He exists outside them and is their support), and also sees the Supreme in all of them (for He exists in them, and is their controller from within), by this reason, he becomes free of fear and does not ever need to seek concealment.

 

 

 

 

One who perceives Sri Hari as being the sole independent entity and the motivator of all, has no fear of anyone, since he knows that all power belongs to the Lord only, not to any other. Verse 5 has already expressed the idea that the Supreme is omnipresent; the repetition of the same notion here is for the purpose of explaining the significance of such omnipresence

 

(why it is important to understand it).

 

 

The same notion is further clarified

 

 

 

yasminsarvani bhutanyatmaivabhudvijanatah |

tatra ko mohah kah soka ekatvamanupasyatah

7

 

yasmin = in whom; sarvani = all; bhutani = beings [exist], the word tisthanti being implied here; atma = the Supreme Being; eva = only; abhut = present, exists within; vijanatah = who understands this very well (the prefix vi signifying visesena, ``specially'' is added to janatah, ``who knows,'' the purport being that the Lord is understood as special as compared with the individual, or that He is very well understood); tatra = in that person; kah = what; mohah = delusion; sokah = sorrow; ekatvam = identity (of the Lord existing in any one being and Him existing in all others); anupasyatah = perceives well.

 

For one who clearly understands that all beings exist in the Supreme, and that He exists within all of them (as their controller), and who thus sees the unity of the Lord as existing (without change) everywhere, what could possibly cause delusion, or sorrow?

 

any questions