The physical universe (mahat tattva) is a virtual reality that is real - Hare Krsna

[Sarva gattah]

 

 

The physical universe (mahat tattva)is a virtual reality that is real but temporary

 

 

As explained by the material scientists - http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=l8AjoUb8Tq8

 

As explained by many devotees of Krsna such as Srila Prabhupada -

 

All marginal living entities in Vaikuntha can project a hologram version of their imaginary self, known as the nitya-baddha consciousness, to the dreams of Maha-Vishnu.

This secondary self or baddha-jiva consciousness is a living real holographic counterfeit projection of the marginal living entity that enables one to enter the mahat-tattva without their real nitya siddha body leaving Goloka or Vaikuntha. It is there in the mahat-tattva, that is a real reality but temporary, the living entity as their secondary projected consciousness, attempts to fulfil their mistaken dreams to achieve anything they want. Such material facilities are provided by Maha Vishnu and simitaneously gained and created by their own material desires.

Srila Prabhupada - "This material creation is the spirit soul's dream, all existence in this world is the dream of Maha-Vishnu. The real, factual platform is the spiritual world, but when the spirit soul wants to imitate the Supreme Personality of Godhead, he is put into this dreamland of material creation. 4.29.83.

Srila Prabhupada - “Everything happening within time, which consists of past, present and future, is merely a dream. This is the secret in understanding in all the Vedic literature.” SB. 4.29.2b.

Srila Prabhupada is saying that our original and perpetual state of being an eternal nitya siddha bodily servant of Krishna means one never falls down, that is, their nitya siddha body never leaves Goloka. However, he also tells us that the memory of being nitya-siddha can be covered over or forgotten by the choice to imagine your own existence without Krishna. This is just like dreaming in our present material body where we dream, or think we are King of a world, but actually, our material body has not moved

In this way Srila Prabhupada is saying that our nitya siddha or svarupa body can be covered over only and the memory of being nitya-siddha forgotten, like one forgets their material body while dreaming.

Our present baddha jiva mundane consciousness dream state that has entered these material vessels we move around in through the thought of imagination, has put our awareness within the mahat-tattva cloud or the physical universe of virtual reality.

It is there, within the dreams of Maha Vishnu, one can may remain trapped in their own psychosis within that virtual reality dream state, as depicted in the movie 'The Matrix,' for a very, very, very, very, very long duration, therefore many creations within the mahat-tattva are coming and going.

Srila Prabhupada – “Due to this long period of time, it is sometimes said that we are ever conditioned. But this long duration of time becomes very insignificant when one actually wakes up from the material dream and comes to Krishna consciousness”.

When that happens, one wakes up from their nitya-baddha condition and realizes their nitya-siddha body and that they were with Krishna all along

[Ravindran Kesavan]

 

 

The physical universe (mahat tattva)is a virtual reality that is real but temporary

 

 

 

 

Srila Prabhupada - "This material creation is the spirit soul's dream, all existence in this world is the dream of Maha-Vishnu. The real, factual platform is the spiritual world, but when the spirit soul wants to imitate the Supreme Personality of Godhead, he is put into this dreamland of material creation. 4.29.83.

Srila Prabhupada - “Everything happening within time, which consists of past, present and future, is merely a dream. This is the secret in understanding in all the Vedic literature.” SB. 4.29.2b.

 

There seems to be a confusion over the meaning of the word "Real" Many times One hears in this forum discussions, that the world is 'real' and at the same time it is equally called "Vertual" (cf. the title of this thread), "dreamland" or "dream" (cf. the two quotations of Srila Prabhupada)

In what sense the world is real if it is vertual or a dreamland? What is the meaning of real over here? What is the definition of reality?

 

K.Ravindran

[Sarva gattah]

 

There seems to be a confusion over the meaning of the word "Real" Many times One hears in this forum discussions, that the world is 'real' and at the same time it is equally called "Vertual" (cf. the title of this thread), "dreamland" or "dream" (cf. the two quotations of Srila Prabhupada)

In what sense the world is real if it is vertual or a dreamland? What is the meaning of real over here? What is the definition of reality?

 

The physical universe (mahat tattva) is a virtual reality that is real but temporary

 

BY GAURAGOPALA DASA

 

 

 

 

 

 

All marginal living entities in Vaikuntha can project a holographic version of the sub-conscious self that is a real feature of their individual personality and physic. This inferior lower self is known as the nitya-baddha consciousness. When one desires to forget Krishna and the svarupa body they serve Krishna as in Goloka, they can enter the dreams of Maha-Vishnu within His mahat tattva creation as this nitya baddha echo of the self.

 

 

 

 

 

This secondary self or baddha-jiva consciousness, activated by free will and the desire to forget Krishna, is a living real holographic counterfeit projection of the marginal living entity that enables one to enter the mahat-tattva without their real nitya siddha body leaving Goloka or Vaikuntha.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

It is there in the mahat-tattva, that is a real reality but temporary, the living entity as their secondary jiva projected consciousness, attempts to fulfil their mistaken dreams to achieve anything they want. Such material facilities are provided by Maha Vishnu and simultaneously gained and created by their own material desires.

 

 

 

 

 

Srila Prabhupada - "This material creation is the spirit soul's dream, all existence in this world is the dream of Maha-Vishnu. The real, factual platform is the spiritual world, but when the spirit soul wants to imitate the Supreme Personality of Godhead, he is put into this dreamland of material creation. 4.29.83.

 

 

 

 

 

Srila Prabhupada - “Everything happening within time, which consists of past, present and future, is merely a dream. This is the secret in understanding in all the Vedic literature.” SB. 4.29.2b.

 

 

 

 

 

Srila Prabhupada is saying that our original and perpetual state of being an eternal nitya siddha bodily servant of Krishna means one never falls down, that is, their nitya siddha body never leaves Goloka. However, he also tells us that the memory of being nitya-siddha can be covered over or forgotten by the choice to imagine your own existence without Krishna. This is just like dreaming in our present material body where we dream, or think we are King of a world, but actually, our material body has not moved.

 

 

 

 

 

In this way Srila Prabhupada is saying that our nitya siddha or svarupa body can be covered over only and the memory of being nitya-siddha forgotten, like one forgets their material body while dreaming.

 

 

 

 

 

In this way, our present baddha jiva mundane consciousness dream state, enters material vessels due to our thoughts of material desires and our imagination to be master instead of servant.Due to such selfish desires manifested ny our ftrr will to choose, our awareness of reality within within Goloka is transfered to temporary reality of the mahat-tattva cloud or the physical universe of virtual reality.

 

 

 

 

 

It is there, within the dreams of Maha Vishnu, one can may remain trapped in their own psychosis within that virtual reality dream state, as depicted in the movie 'The Matrix,' for a very, very, very, very, very long duration, therefore many creations within the mahat-tattva are coming and going.

 

 

 

 

 

Srila Prabhupada – “Due to this long period of time, it is sometimes said that we are ever conditioned. But this long duration of time becomes very insignificant when one actually wakes up from the material dream and comes to Krishna consciousness”.

 

 

 

 

 

When that happens, one wakes up from their nitya-baddha condition and realizes their nitya-siddha body and that they were with Krishna all along

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

What does the word real mean?

 

 

 

 

 

In Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha, the actions, thoughts and dreams of the marginal living entity are ALL-REAL, are all on the same level of a reality that exists eternally in Gods Kingdom in a perpetual atmosphere devoid of past, future and impermanence.

 

 

 

 

 

So, what is the difference between what is REAL in Goloka and what is REAL in the material creation known as the mahat tattva?

 

 

 

 

 

The answer is, there is NO difference in the meaning of word reality in both places because both creations are real solid realities devoid of apparitions to those who have true Knowledge.

 

 

 

 

 

In other words, they are both the same within the criteria of the word real however, one reality (Goloka) is imperishable situated within the eternal present mode of eternal loving bhakti, while the other reality ((maha tattva) is also real but is perishable, exists for sometime then fads to be as if it never was.

 

 

 

 

 

The highest and natural expression of the marginal living entity is realizing their full potential as their perpetual nitya-siddha-svarupa devotional body as already explained. This state is also the full potential of the word REAL.

 

 

 

 

 

This is hard for us to understand from our present dimensional platform of consciousness that is trapped in the mahat-tattva because we are governed by the divided eternal presents that manifests as past, present, future, that causes the reaction of decay and forgetfulness.

 

 

 

 

 

By foolishly desiring to ignore God and the perpetual body one REALLY is in Goloka in their full potential, we are restricted to our secondary dream state conscious REALITY (nitya-baddha) that is constrained to the laws of the mahat-tattva or material creation.

 

 

 

 

 

On the absolute level every dream and thought is as real as ones deeds.

 

 

 

 

 

Even in the heavenly planets within the mahat-tattva, where the nitya-baddha dream state is confined to an ethereal body in a sub-space dimension of the mahat-tattva, ones thoughts and deeds are on an equal footing.

 

 

 

 

 

The heavenly realm or atmosphere is completely different from our secular condition on this gross material planet where the ethereal or subtle body that houses the baddha jiva consciousness, is further restricted and restrained by a biological vessel.

 

 

 

 

 

However, both the secular world of biological bodies and the subtle bodies of ghost or ethereal vessels IN THE MATERIAL WORLD are also REAL. But it must be understood that that reality created by the baddha jiva contained in those ethereal and biological vessels, fads away or perishes.

 

 

 

 

 

The full potential of what is REAL, of what is REALITY is that it is imperishable, and never fades away which means it is always in the perpetual state of originality.

 

 

 

 

 

So how are we to understand that our dreams on the absolute level are also real and transmitted as the nitya-baddha conscious state to the material creation? Now we cannot compare the dreams we have in our material body that are illusion, with the dreams we have in our pure state initiated by free will and choose.

 

 

 

 

 

Nitya siddha is when we are in our natural pure state of REALITY, eternally liberated in Goloka serving God or Krishna.

 

 

 

 

 

Nitya baddha state is when we are in our unnatural impure state of TRANSITORY REALITY eternally conditioned in the mahat tattva serving ones selfish interests unaware of their PERMANENTLY REAL nitya siddha authentic self in Goloka.

 

 

 

 

 

The original and eternal position of all living individuals, known as the marginal living entities is their perpetual rasa (devotional mood) nitya-siddha-svarupa body that is eternally serving Krishna in the ‘eternal present’ where there is no past or future as previously explained.

 

 

 

 

 

This means there is also no decay, impermanence birth, disease, old age, death and forgetfulness in the perpetual REALITY Kingdom of God known as Goloka-Vrndavana and the Vaikuntha planets.

 

 

 

 

 

If we are to correctly understand that we all originate from Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha, such realizations are only possible by the mercy of Srila Prabhupada and without his mercy one will never understand. Everything Srila Prabhupada said and wrote must be understood in the context of His books, lectures, morning walks, and classes.

 

 

 

 

 

This is the correct way to appreciate the criteria of guru, sadhu, and shastra. All interpretations of his teachings that fail these criteria of guru, sadu and shastra are to be considered bogus; therefore everything in this book is based very clearly on the teachings of His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami.

 

 

 

 

 

Lord Krishna or the Supreme Personality of Godhead is always the absolute truth with an all-attractive Vigraha or Bodily Form yet is also simultaneously everywhere personally and impersonally within His creation.

 

 

 

 

 

Krishna is always as His beautiful Syamasundara form that never vacates from His Goloka-Vrndavana central abode yet is simultaneously manifested as unlimited four armed Vishnu Forms throughout the Vaikuntha planets. Both these abodes are the perpetual Kingdom of Krishna that exists in the eternal present devoid of past and future as the Brahma Samhita tells us.

 

 

 

 

 

Vishnu and Lakshmi in the Vaikunthas where their devotees are in the mood of servitorship and Radha Krishna in Goloka-Vrndavana where Krishnas mood is more intermit with His devotees in the disposition of friendship and conjugal love.

 

 

 

 

 

Even though Krishna is eternally in His central Goloka-Vrndavana Planet that resembles a lotus flower as shown above, He also resides as Vishnu in the surrounding Vaikuntha Planets.

 

 

 

 

 

Krishna further expands Himself from His Sankarsana or Balarama bodily form to the sleeping Maha-Vishnu form who builds His own abode in one corner of the Spiritual Sky as shown above that is called the mahat-tattva or material creation.

 

 

 

 

 

Maha-Vishnu is never affected by this dark cloud OF TEMPORARY OR FADING REALITY He has constructed in His corner of the Spiritual Sky (shown above) that exists in a completely different dimensional phenomenon of time and space than the Vaikuntha planets.

 

 

 

 

 

In His mahat-tattva (jada-jagat- lifeless world) there is also eternal time however, it is divided by past, present and future which has the by-product phenomenon of impermanence, decay birth and death that does not exist in the perpetual ‘present’ in Goloka-Vrndavana or Vaikuntha (cid-jagat) which makes up the majority of the Spiritual Sky or Brahmajyoti.

 

 

 

 

 

The original and eternal position of all living individuals, known as the marginal living entities is their perpetual rasa (devotional mood) nitya-siddha-svarupa body that is eternally serving Krishna in the ‘eternal present’ where there is no past or future as previously explained.

 

 

 

 

Above is the Mahat tattva reality created by Maha Vishnu that is a REAL exitance but temporary

 

 

 

 

 

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The eternal reality of Goloka and Vaikuntha in comparison to the small material reality or mahat tattva.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Another view of the eternal reality of Goloka and Vaikuntha in comparison to the small material reality or mahat tattva.

 

 

 

Above - The pepertual devotional REALITY of Goloka or the Supreme Kingdom of God where nothing ever fades

 

 

 

Below - Childs Play. A drawing by 6 year old Bhaktisiddhanta dasa from our Bega NSW Hare Krishna community. This young boy shows us how it all works and how we dream we are in the material creation and never really leave Goloka. We only 'think' or 'imagine' we do as Srila Prabhupada explains.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Lord Brahma within the material creation and above him is Radha and Krishna in Goloka Vrndavana

 

 

 

 

 

[Sarva gattah]

[Beggar]

Like I've said before the duality that Gaura Gopal, Sarva gattah has so much difficulty with is very similar to the conception of nama aparadha. We are to told that there is no difference between the nama or name and the namni or Who is described by the name, so in Bhagavan's case He is non-different from his Holy Name. A practitioner devotee may think, "I am chanting the Holy Name of Krsna but I cannot see Krsna's form, with His qualities or His divine lila because I am covered by so many offenses, aparadha's to the Name." But the syntax of the word nama aparadha implies that the name one is vibrating on his lips and tongue (if one is committing any of the ten offenses to the Name) is in itself "nama aparadha". So from that viewpoint we may be arising early in the morning and chanting so many nama apradhas on our beads. In my Iskcon years, this never occured to me. When Srila Sridhar Maharaja understood that this obvious point was not seen by the Iskcon devotees who came to him, he explained it in detail. He told that chanting nama apradha is like a gun that fires blanks. But indeed although obvious and right in front of our noses this is a dangerous thought for the Western devotees. As Srila Rupa Goswami has told, in our "jaundiced state" the nama will seem bitter, but the only cure is incessent chanting. But we are always looking for loopholes and sure enough many so-called followers of Srila Sridhar Maharaja have more or less given up chanting their prescribed number of rounds (not at all Srila Sridhar Maharaja's intention). So in the same way, the tatastha origin paradigm which we can find in dozens of places in Srila Prabhupada's books can be a dangerous idea for a crowd that is coming from a background in impersonalism. And this appears to be Srila Prabhupada's concern in his conversations and letters with his fledgling disciples in the late 60s through the mid 70s.

I have heard this idea from a number of senior, elderly "Gauidya Math" sanyassis. In other words sometimes in order to protect his fledgling disciples who were prone to falling back into impersonalism he would allow his pravacana or preaching to cross siddhanta, proper devotional conclusions. This is why almost all of Gaura Gopal's significant quotes come from conversations and letters and not Srila Prabhupada's books. Yet

this analysis is very difficult and within itself fraught with it's own inherent dangers. Naive persons will then reject certain profound descriptions given in these letters and conversations of Srila Prabhupada. In a recent post I also described this phenomena. Because of the Iskcon guru falldowns and the politics that followed when many went outside Iskcon for siksa, a polarization developed with added to the polarization over the issue of the origin of the jiva. This is why I object so much to Gaua Gopal, Sarva gattah's campaign, especially it's style. While he may capture some who are already like minded, he further adds fuel to an already polarized situation.

[Sarva gattah]

Srila Prabhupada - "This material creation is the spirit soul's dream, all existence in this world is the dream of Maha-Vishnu. The real, factual platform is the spiritual world, but when the spirit soul wants to imitate the Supreme Personality of Godhead, he is put into this dreamland of material creation. 4.29.83.

Srila Prabhupada - “Everything happening within time, which consists of past, present and future, is merely a dream. This is the secret in understanding in all the Vedic literature.” SB. 4.29.2b.

Srila Prabhupada is saying that our original and perpetual state of being an eternal nitya siddha bodily servant of Krishna means one never falls down, that is, their nitya siddha body never leaves Goloka. However, he also tells us that the memory of being nitya-siddha can be covered over or forgotten by the choice to imagine your own existence without Krishna. This is just like dreaming in our present material body where we dream, or think we are King of a world, but actually, our material body has not moved

In this way Srila Prabhupada is saying that our nitya siddha or svarupa body can be covered over only and the memory of being nitya-siddha forgotten, like one forgets their material body while dreaming.

[Beggar]

Hearing, chanting, remembering, offering prayers, cutting, pasting...

[Beggar]

Sarva, I've got a great idea. You could program your computer to automatically scan the posts on this site. Then the program would look for certain key words, like origin, tatastha etc. If those words were found then it could count the number of times certain words were used, their frequency. Based on this you could use an algorithm to decide which of your previous posts, which would be on your hard drive to use. So that readers would never suspect that your were not there or "nobody was home" you could use another algorithm which could digitally cut and paste parts of your previous posts of Prabhupada quotes together to create new and unique posts. Then of course the program would decide with another algorithm whether to use the screen name Sarva Gattah, Swarupa or Gauragopa (what ever happened to Asvatthama?). Then of course the program would automatically sign in and post. Just think you could chant japa, cook for the dieties, go on sankirtana and never have sit down on the computer and read Gaudiya Math propaganda. Even if you became senile or brain dead the posting could go on automatically, in fact this could go on for thousands of years at least theorectically! We could call the program Prabhupada Robot 1.0. The program could also be programmed to update itself and automatically hack into servers all over the world. The hacked into servers would actually host Prabhupada Robot 1.0 and it's eventual upgraded version. The hacked sever could then provide resources for Prabhupada Robot and get virtual sukrti (which would require an algorithm in order to quantify). Wouldn't it be fitting to hack into a server located physically in Butler, PA? In this way there would be no need to buy a new computer or to upgrade your technology after you leave your body. Eventually Prabhupada Robot 1.0 could take over the entire world or at least the Gaudiya Math! Wait a minute, am I on to something here? Have you already done this? Wait maybe...No, no it couldn't be?

[theist]

I don't see anywhere where Sarva is having trouble with this subject matter. He is saying exactly what Srila Prabhjupada is stating in very clear and unambiguous terms.

[Beggar]

 

I don't see anywhere where Sarva is having trouble with this subject matter. He is saying exactly what Srila Prabhjupada is stating in very clear and unambiguous terms.

 

Because this is Sarva gattah's purport:

 

In this way Srila Prabhupada is saying that our nitya siddha or svarupa body can be covered over only and the memory of being nitya-siddha forgotten, like one forgets their material body while dreaming.

It may factually seem to be in line with Srila Prabhupada's words but it may in fact be over-reaching or imply something that goes beyond Prabhupada's own words.

[Beggar]

Also theist, try to see that there are more than just two (apparently opposite) sides to this issue. It's not all black and white, but shades of grey.

As Srila Sridhar Maharaj said, "there is gradation everywhere." and "there is the Absolute conception and the relative consideration". What Sarva does is that he promotes only the Absolute conception and leaves aside the relative considerations. The relative considerations are those of the previous acaryas.

He cannot harmonize the tatastha origin padigm because of its relativity. Anadi bhahir mukha, where anadi, beginingless becomes defined as almost eternal. From the Absolute viewpoint that would completely make no sense, so that concept has a relativity. Those who don't understand this are prone to seeing the tatastha origin description think that it's impersonalism. The opposite pitfall is that some will not see that the tatstha origin description is just that, a description. How can something that is eternal have an origin? That is a paradox. So part of the reason for the tatastha origin description is to illustrated how the jiva is related to Krsna (a kind of relativity). One may bring up the argument that since the jiva can become a jnani and merge with brahman then how is that make the tatastha origin concept, merely a concept or description? The answer is

that the brahmajyoti is never an eternal position for the jiva. It is only a temporary position even if a jnani stays there for trillions of years, he again comes down. The same idea is there, anadi, almost eternal. How can anything be almost eternal? Its the same paradox. So if one could go (or be) in Vaikuntha and then fall from that position (or dream it) it would put going back to Godhead in the same position as merging with the brahmajyoti, almost eternal but falling after zillions of years. But this is not the proper devotional way to think about it. What Srila Prabhupada says really doesn't contradict this because he leaves the door slightly open in all his statements such as "millions of years ago we came down from Vaikuntha". Vaikuntha may also mean the entire Spiritual Sky. But in Sarva's descriptions and the GBC OOPs, the door becomes fully shut, and this in a sense denies the paradoxical nature of this issue. Sarva's viewpoint actually does a better job at attempting to deal with what appears to be opposites but he too falls into a position of unmodified duality which does not harmonize with Mahaprabhu's conception of simutaneous oneness and difference.

[Narasingh]

 

Because this is Sarva gattah's purport:

 

It may factually seem to be in line with Srila Prabhupada's words but it may in fact be over-reaching or imply something that goes beyond Prabhupada's own words.

 

If you want to see the context of what Prabhupada said regarding Nitya Siddha look at this:

 

nitya-siddha krishna-bhakti sadhya kabhu naya

sravanadi-suddha-citte karaye udaya

 

The krishna-bhakti, our love for Krishna, is there eternally. But on account of our contamination with this material world, we have forgotten our relationship.

 

There is a verse in the Caitanya-caritamrita: nitya-siddha krishna-bhakti sadhya kabhu naya. Krishna-bhakti, your devotion for Krishna, your attachment for Krishna, is there because you are part and parcel of Krishna.

 

nitya-siddha krishna-bhakti sadhya kabhu naya

sravanadi-suddha-citte karaye udaya

 

Just like sex impulse. It doesn’t require to, how to awaken sex impulse, natural; similarly, krishna-bhakti is our natural inheritance because we are part and parcel of Krishna, or sons of Krishna.

 

So Prahlada Maharaja he is nitya-siddha. Nitya-siddha means there are living entities, every living entity is part and parcel of Krishna, so one who does not fall down, he is called nitya-siddha. One who does not fall down. Just like in this material world there are millions and millions of living entities, but they have fallen down. But there are multi-millions and millions of living entities in the vaikuntha-loka, they never fall down. They are called nitya-siddha. They never come here.

 

nitya-siddha krishna-bhakti sadhya kabhu naya

sravanadi-suddha-citte karaye udaya

Krishna-bhakti, Krishna consciousness, is in everyone’s heart, dormant. Every living entity. Because every living entity is part and parcel of Krishna. Just like a father and son, there is natural affection; it is not artificial. Even there is misunderstanding between father and the son, and if they meet at a time after many years’ misunderstanding, immediately the affection of father and son will act, immediately. Similarly, because we are part and parcel of Krishna, our affection for Krishna and Krishna’s affection for us is eternal. Krishna is more anxious to reclaim us from this miserable condition of life than we are, because we are sons of Krishna. Sarva-yonishu kaunteya sambhavanti murtayah yah [bg. 14.4]. He is the father of all living entities. We are part and parcel. Therefore Krishna is very anxious. Therefore Caitanya-caritamrita kar says,

anadi bahir mukha jiva krishna bhuli gela

ataeva krishna veda purana karila

Just to remind us. Not only he has given us Vedas and Puranas to remind us that “Your position is different than you are thinking. You are thinking that you are a material product. That is illusion. Aham brahmasmi. You are brahma-vastu. You are part and parcel of Brahman...” Therefore there are so many literatures—vedais ca sarvair aham eva vedyah [bg. 15.15]—just to draw your attention to come to Krishna. Just to draw your attention, that “You are My part and parcel. You are My eternal son. Why you are rotting in this miserable condition of life, janma-mrityu-jara-vyadhi?”

[Beggar]

Man, I've gotta lay off that caffeine!

[Narasingh]

Try copy and paste... its much less grueling. You can sip chamomile tea and copy and paste

[theist]

 

Because this is Sarva gattah's purport:

 

 

It may factually seem to be in line with Srila Prabhupada's words but it may in fact be over-reaching or imply something that goes beyond Prabhupada's own words.

 

 

Prabhupada's analogy is very clear and your 'shades of grey' concept' amounts to adding fog to what is otherwise a day of clear visiblity.

 

 

You are overthinking and confusing the issue. This is understood not through more and more words but through some quite contemplation of Prabhupada's words which will be rewarded with understanding by the grace of Supersoul.

[Narasingh]

He is talking about Krsna bhakti being nitya siddha. Not your form

[theist]

 

He is talking about Krsna bhakti being nitya siddha. Not your form

 

 

There is no differnce. Do you think you rasa body is composed of anything other that krishna bhakti?

[Narasingh]

There is a difference. You can't wear a gold nugget, it has to take shape in the form of jewelry. Nevertheless it is still gold.

[Narasingh]

It is not all one

[Beggar]

 

Prabhupada's analogy is very clear and your 'shades of grey' concept' amounts to adding fog to what is otherwise a day of clear visiblity.

 

 

Analogies and metaphors always have their limitations. "A is similar to B." This is a kind of analogy called a simile. "A=B." This is an equation whereas A is equal to or exactly the same as B. If A is analogous to B therefore not exactly equal or the same, then by definition there must be some difference. This difference may to in various degrees or points similar to "shades of gray".

On a digital gray scale the differences are automatically quantified, but in real life, analogue life, each shade of gray appears to melt into the other - shades, subtle nuances. Subtle nuances of meaning very much there in the theology of Gaudiya Vaisnavism, the siddhanta or devotional conclusions. The relativity of truths cannot be allowed to walk all over the deepest devotional moods. When we conclude that those who are purest of the pure, those who have the most love for Krsna, those who are dearest to Krsna become inhabitors of minds and bodies that experience hellish lives (or even dream that they do) then our conclusion pierces the soft hearts of those who we aspire to become like.

[theist]

 

There is a difference. You can't wear a gold nugget, it has to take shape in the form of jewelry. Nevertheless it is still gold.

 

 

Except in this case the form is eternal, ever present. You are thinking of your spiritual form as something that doesn't exist and needs to be formed. That is clearly not what Srila Prabhupada is saying.

[theist]

 

It is not all one

 

 

What is that supposed to mean in the context of this conversation.

[theist]

I'm out of this conversation.

[Narasingh]

 

There is no differnce. Do you think you rasa body is composed of anything other that krishna bhakti?

Rasa can be developed and matured. Take Gopa Kumara of Brhad Bhagavatamrta for instance. He attained the stages of mahabhagavata and beyond. He entered lila, first with Narayana, then with Krsna till he found himself fulfilled as a cowherd boy. At that point it was as if he was always with Krsna. So when I said there is a difference between a gold nugget and gold jewelry, that they are not one, it is in this context. We nityabaddha jivas are golden but in a raw state. It isn't until we are smelted by Prema and tempered with Saranagati do we achieve our beauty. It is a process of offering and sacrifice. With no work, no sacrifice is complete.

 

Prabhupada did not teach that your final spritual body and bhakti are synonyms. To revisit what Prabhupada said regarding Nitya Siddha note especially what he said regarding Prahlad Maharaj in the 3rd quote. If you are in Maha Maya, you are definitely not nitya siddha Bhakta although you may have nitya siddha bhakti in a dormant state:

 

nitya-siddha krishna-bhakti sadhya kabhu naya

sravanadi-suddha-citte karaye udaya

 

The krishna-bhakti, our love for Krishna, is there eternally. But on account of our contamination with this material world, we have forgotten our relationship.

 

There is a verse in the Caitanya-caritamrita: nitya-siddha krishna-bhakti sadhya kabhu naya. Krishna-bhakti, your devotion for Krishna, your attachment for Krishna, is there because you are part and parcel of Krishna.

 

nitya-siddha krishna-bhakti sadhya kabhu naya

sravanadi-suddha-citte karaye udaya

 

Just like sex impulse. It doesn’t require to, how to awaken sex impulse, natural; similarly, krishna-bhakti is our natural inheritance because we are part and parcel of Krishna, or sons of Krishna.

 

So Prahlada Maharaja he is nitya-siddha. Nitya-siddha means there are living entities, every living entity is part and parcel of Krishna, so one who does not fall down, he is called nitya-siddha. One who does not fall down. Just like in this material world there are millions and millions of living entities, but they have fallen down. But there are multi-millions and millions of living entities in the vaikuntha-loka, they never fall down. They are called nitya-siddha. They never come here.

 

nitya-siddha krishna-bhakti sadhya kabhu naya

sravanadi-suddha-citte karaye udaya

Krishna-bhakti, Krishna consciousness, is in everyone’s heart, dormant. Every living entity. Because every living entity is part and parcel of Krishna. Just like a father and son, there is natural affection; it is not artificial. Even there is misunderstanding between father and the son, and if they meet at a time after many years’ misunderstanding, immediately the affection of father and son will act, immediately. Similarly, because we are part and parcel of Krishna, our affection for Krishna and Krishna’s affection for us is eternal. Krishna is more anxious to reclaim us from this miserable condition of life than we are, because we are sons of Krishna. Sarva-yonishu kaunteya sambhavanti murtayah yah [bg. 14.4]. He is the father of all living entities. We are part and parcel. Therefore Krishna is very anxious. Therefore Caitanya-caritamrita kar says,

anadi bahir mukha jiva krishna bhuli gela

ataeva krishna veda purana karila

Just to remind us. Not only he has given us Vedas and Puranas to remind us that “Your position is different than you are thinking. You are thinking that you are a material product. That is illusion. Aham brahmasmi. You are brahma-vastu. You are part and parcel of Brahman...” Therefore there are so many literatures—vedais ca sarvair aham eva vedyah [bg. 15.15]—just to draw your attention to come to Krishna. Just to draw your attention, that “You are My part and parcel. You are My eternal son. Why you are rotting in this miserable condition of life, janma-mrityu-jara-vyadhi?”

[Beggar]

 

So Prahlada Maharaja he is nitya-siddha. Nitya-siddha means there are living entities, every living entity is part and parcel of Krishna, so one who does not fall down, he is called nitya-siddha. One who does not fall down. Just like in this material world there are millions and millions of living entities, but they have fallen down. But there are multi-millions and millions of living entities in the vaikuntha-loka, they never fall down. They are called nitya-siddha. They never come here.

 

Narasingh, this is a nice quote. It seems like it's from a lecture by Srila Prabhupada (or book?). Do know the date and where the full transcript can be found?