CCC Posted October 15, 2008 Report Share Posted October 15, 2008 Śrī Brahma-saḿhitā 5.11 sahasra-śīrṣā puruṣaḥ sahasrākṣaḥ sahasra-pāt sahasra-bāhur viśvātmā sahasrāḿśaḥ sahasra-sūḥ SYNONYMS sahasra-śīrṣā — possessing thousands of heads; puruṣaḥ — Lord Mahā-Viṣṇu, the first puruṣa-avatāra; sahasra-akṣaḥ — possessing thousands of eyes; sahasra-pāt — possessing thousands of legs; sahasra-bāhuḥ — possessing thousands of arms; viśva-ātmā — the Supersoul of the universe; sahasra-aḿśaḥ — the source of thousands of avatāras; sahasra-sūḥ — the creator of thousands of individual souls. TRANSLATION The Lord of the mundane world, Mahā-Viṣṇu, possesses thousands of thousands of heads, eyes, hands. He is the source of thousands of thousands of avatāras in His thousands of thousands of subjective portions. He is the creator of thousands of thousands of individual souls. PURPORT Mahā-Viṣṇu, the object of worship of the hymns of all the Vedas, is possessed of an infinity of senses and potencies, and He is the prime avatāra-puruṣa, the source of all the avatāras. ______ Why Hare Krsnas says that the jiva is not created? I have heard a lot of discussions about this issue and it seems that the soul has a spiritual origin i.e. the soul has a spiritual creation beyond space and time of this material world and for this it is eternal and trascendental. the origin of the soul is spiritual, is created, there is a time where we didnt exist as souls and at some time we were created by god as trascendental beings beyond the material world. It seems that the past acaryas have said that the jiva is not created just to stress that we have no material origin. For example the acaryas says that matter is dead but is not dead, is jut to say that the soul is different of matter in quality. there is a conversation between Prabhupada and some of his disciples talking about this, I remember that Srila Prabhupada said that this is higher knowledge not for common people... (I am searching that conversation) Thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suchandra Posted October 15, 2008 Report Share Posted October 15, 2008 He is the creator of thousands of thousands of individual souls. When Krsna says the soul is ascaryavat, amazing, the soul must be realy amazing, beyond our brain substance to understand this kind of amazing. In other words to take the term "created" and understand it in the worldly sense, is this realy enough? Guess there must be more, created but at the same time unborn, something like this. āścarya-vat paśyati kaścid enam āścarya-vad vadati tathaiva cānyaḥ āścarya-vac cainam anyaḥ śṛṇoti śrutvāpy enaḿ veda na caiva kaścit SYNONYMS āścarya-vat — as amazing; paśyati — sees; kaścit — someone; enam — this soul; āścarya-vat — as amazing; vadati — speaks of; tathā — thus; eva — certainly; ca — also; anyaḥ — another; āścarya-vat — similarly amazing; ca — also; enam — this soul; anyaḥ — another; śṛṇoti — hears of; śrutvā — having heard; api — even; enam — this soul; veda — knows; na — never; ca — and; eva — certainly; kaścit — someone. TRANSLATION Some look on the soul as amazing, some describe him as amazing, and some hear of him as amazing, while others, even after hearing about him, cannot understand him at all. PURPORT Since Gītopaniṣad is largely based on the principles of the Upaniṣads, it is not surprising to also find this passage in the Kaṭha Upaniṣad (1.2.7): śravaṇayāpi bahubhir yo na labhyaḥ śṛṇvanto 'pi bahavo yaḿ na vidyuḥ āścaryo vaktā kuśalo 'sya labdhā āścaryo 'sya jñātā kuśalānuśiṣṭaḥ The fact that the atomic soul is within the body of a gigantic animal, in the body of a gigantic banyan tree, and also in the microbic germs, millions and billions of which occupy only an inch of space, is certainly very amazing. Men with a poor fund of knowledge and men who are not austere cannot understand the wonders of the individual atomic spark of spirit, even though it is explained by the greatest authority of knowledge, who imparted lessons even to Brahmā, the first living being in the universe. Owing to a gross material conception of things, most men in this age cannot imagine how such a small particle can become both so great and so small. So men look at the soul proper as wonderful either by constitution or by description. Illusioned by the material energy, people are so engrossed in subject matters for sense gratification that they have very little time to understand the question of self-understanding, even though it is a fact that without this self-understanding all activities result in ultimate defeat in the struggle for existence. Perhaps they have no idea that one must think of the soul, and thus make a solution to the material miseries. Some people who are inclined to hear about the soul may be attending lectures, in good association, but sometimes, owing to ignorance, they are misguided by acceptance of the Supersoul and the atomic soul as one without distinction of magnitude. It is very difficult to find a man who perfectly understands the position of the Supersoul, the atomic soul, their respective functions and relationships and all other major and minor details. And it is still more difficult to find a man who has actually derived full benefit from knowledge of the soul, and who is able to describe the position of the soul in different aspects. But if, somehow or other, one is able to understand the subject matter of the soul, then one's life is successful. The easiest process for understanding the subject matter of self, however, is to accept the statements of the Bhagavad-gītā spoken by the greatest authority, Lord Kṛṣṇa, without being deviated by other theories. But it also requires a great deal of penance and sacrifice, either in this life or in the previous ones, before one is able to accept Kṛṣṇa as the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Kṛṣṇa can, however, be known as such by the causeless mercy of the pure devotee and by no other way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarva gattah Posted October 15, 2008 Report Share Posted October 15, 2008 There has never been a time when you and I have not existed, nor will there be a time when we will cease to exist. As the same person inhabits the body through childhood, youth, and old age, so too at the time of death he attains another body. The wise are not deluded by these changes. <CITE>Bhagavad Gita</CITE> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarva gattah Posted October 15, 2008 Report Share Posted October 15, 2008 Why? Because the jiva in its natural state serves in the ‘eternal present’ that, not only has no past or future as we trapped in the material world know it, but also has no beginning or end, birth or death, decay, pain or suffering. The eternal presents of Goloka with Krishna and His living entities is imperishable and therefore has always existed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bishadi Posted October 16, 2008 Report Share Posted October 16, 2008 I have heard a lot of discussions about this issue and it seems that the soul has a spiritual origin i.e. the soul has a spiritual creation beyond space and time of this material world and for this it is eternal and trascendental. Time is the transcendent. Light is the spirit and mass the material (corporeal). The combination of all three is existence itself. The total or God himself; that which all is created from. Life is the light upon mass. And when a life imposes an action upon existence no matter during which time, that wake moves through in time. So the life and actions do exists and that karma is what each impose by choice; they live in what they do. And to know light is the energy upon mass in time, then all time and mass is entangled to life. These things are true Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suchandra Posted October 16, 2008 Report Share Posted October 16, 2008 It seems that the past acaryas have said that the jiva is not created just to stress that we have no material origin. For example the acaryas says that matter is dead but is not dead, is jut to say that the soul is different of matter in quality. Since Christians are forbidden to believe in a soul via Vatican decree they are always trying to challenge Vaishnavism. De facto Christians are told by their leaders that there's no soul but only biological life. When being asked like Prabhupada challenged the scientists, to give evidence, they have of course none. So they have to believe in a fiction and therefore attack the Vaishnavas that they also have to believe in a fiction. Ok, nobody is forced to adopt a believe, in this world everyone can believe what he likes. But is this an intelligent believe to say there's no soul, it's all biological live, interacting chemicals? Mother nature teaches another lesson, every little insect, every little plant has a pronounced impulse to live. How could possibly chemicals, biological life, could create that impulse that I want to live perpetually? There're old people who say, I want to die peacefully, I had a fulfilled life, I don't want anymore. But when death actually knocks at our door aren't we afraid? In sum, everybody has to decide for himself, what Christians teach, am I a bunch of temporary material chemicals or am I a different eternal energy, what Krsna Himself is saying? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CCC Posted October 16, 2008 Author Report Share Posted October 16, 2008 still no one has answered my question Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suchandra Posted October 16, 2008 Report Share Posted October 16, 2008 still no one has answered my question Since you say you're not a Hare Krsna there seems only this answer, the soul was never, ever created - spoken by Lord Krsna. na jāyate mriyate vā kadācin nāyaḿ bhūtvā bhavitā vā na bhūyaḥ ajo nityaḥ śāśvato 'yaḿ purāṇo na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre SYNONYMS na — never; jāyate — takes birth; mriyate — dies; vā — either; kadācit — at any time (past, present or future); na — never; ayam — this; bhūtvā — having come into being; bhavitā — will come to be; vā — or; na — not; bhūyaḥ — or is again coming to be; ajaḥ — unborn; nityaḥ — eternal; śāśvataḥ — permanent; ayam — this; purāṇaḥ — the oldest; na — never; hanyate — is killed; hanyamāne — being killed; śarīre — the body. TRANSLATION For the soul there is neither birth nor death at any time. He has not come into being, does not come into being, and will not come into being. He is unborn, eternal, ever-existing and primeval. He is not slain when the body is slain. PURPORT Qualitatively, the small atomic fragmental part of the Supreme Spirit is one with the Supreme. He undergoes no changes like the body. Sometimes the soul is called the steady, or kūṭa-stha. The body is subject to six kinds of transformations. It takes its birth from the womb of the mother's body, remains for some time, grows, produces some effects, gradually dwindles, and at last vanishes into oblivion. The soul, however, does not go through such changes. The soul is not born, but, because he takes on a material body, the body takes its birth. The soul does not take birth there, and the soul does not die. Anything which has birth also has death. And because the soul has no birth, he therefore has no past, present or future. He is eternal, ever-existing, and primeval — that is, there is no trace in history of his coming into being. Under the impression of the body, we seek the history of birth, etc., of the soul. The soul does not at any time become old, as the body does. The so-called old man, therefore, feels himself to be in the same spirit as in his childhood or youth. The changes of the body do not affect the soul. The soul does not deteriorate like a tree, nor anything material. The soul has no by-product either. The by-products of the body, namely children, are also different individual souls; and, owing to the body, they appear as children of a particular man. The body develops because of the soul's presence, but the soul has neither offshoots nor change. Therefore, the soul is free from the six changes of the body. In the Kaṭha Upaniṣad (1.2.18) we also find a similar passage, which reads: na jāyate mriyate vā vipaścin nāyaḿ kutaścin na babhūva kaścit ajo nityaḥ śāśvato 'yaḿ purāṇo na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre The meaning and purport of this verse is the same as in the Bhagavad-gītā, but here in this verse there is one special word, vipaścit, which means learned or with knowledge. The soul is full of knowledge, or full always with consciousness. Therefore, consciousness is the symptom of the soul. Even if one does not find the soul within the heart, where he is situated, one can still understand the presence of the soul simply by the presence of consciousness. Sometimes we do not find the sun in the sky owing to clouds, or for some other reason, but the light of the sun is always there, and we are convinced that it is therefore daytime. As soon as there is a little light in the sky early in the morning, we can understand that the sun is in the sky. Similarly, since there is some consciousness in all bodies — whether man or animal — we can understand the presence of the soul. This consciousness of the soul is, however, different from the consciousness of the Supreme because the supreme consciousness is all-knowledge — past, present and future. The consciousness of the individual soul is prone to be forgetful. When he is forgetful of his real nature, he obtains education and enlightenment from the superior lessons of Kṛṣṇa. But Kṛṣṇa is not like the forgetful soul. If so, Kṛṣṇa's teachings of Bhagavad-gītā would be useless. There are two kinds of souls — namely the minute particle soul (aṇu-ātmā) and the Supersoul (vibhu-ātmā). This is also confirmed in the Kaṭha Upaniṣad (1.2.20) in this way: aṇor aṇīyān mahato mahīyān ātmāsya jantor nihito guhāyām tam akratuḥ paśyati vīta-śoko dhātuḥ prasādān mahimānam ātmanaḥ "Both the Supersoul [Paramātmā] and the atomic soul [jīvātmā] are situated on the same tree of the body within the same heart of the living being, and only one who has become free from all material desires as well as lamentations can, by the grace of the Supreme, understand the glories of the soul." Kṛṣṇa is the fountainhead of the Supersoul also, as it will be disclosed in the following chapters, and Arjuna is the atomic soul, forgetful of his real nature; therefore he requires to be enlightened by Kṛṣṇa, or by His bona fide representative (the spiritual master). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CCC Posted October 16, 2008 Author Report Share Posted October 16, 2008 Since you say you're not a Hare Krsna there seems only this answer, the soul was never, ever created - spoken by Lord Krsna. So there are different aswers for different people? I was hare krsna for 7 years, now i am not interested in temples ot whatever I still chants my beads read the scriptures but i am not interested in politics, I am not ritvik, zonal guru, iskcon, gaudiya math, no fall vadi, fall vadi etc etc etc. I just want to know the truth and I am asking why hare krsnas says that the soul has no originn if brahma samhita says that. otherwise vaishnavas scriptures are not very bonafide because there are contradictions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bishadi Posted October 16, 2008 Report Share Posted October 16, 2008 Since Christians are forbidden to believe in a soul via ffice:smarttags" /><?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com just a crack up coming from a person representing cows are holy (life giving) and that </FONT><st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> is blue</P><P></P><P>Thanx …… for another 'something' to giggle about</P><P></P><P></P><P> Because the sciences follow the 2<SUP>nd</SUP> law of thermo as if it was pure. Almost like a religious person following their book as if pure. Each have a pre-existing bias. <FONT color=black></P><P> </P><P> And can you honestly represent ............WHY?</P><P> </P><P>perhaps from this opinion:</P><P></FONT> </P><P></P><P>Because neither have the truth themselves and perhaps when the practitioners awaken; they will combine being fair to each but allowing reality to reveal the absolute. <FONT color=black></P><P> </P><P> The soul is the energy (light) holding each ‘chemical’ together. </P><P></FONT> </P><P></P><P>i.e… a dead person has all the chemicals and mass, but the ‘life’ left the building. <FONT color=black></P><P> </P><P> Answer: life is 'purposed to continue'. </P><P></FONT> </P><P></P><P>That pure 'truth' discredits entropy and the 2<SUP>nd</SUP> law. <FONT color=black></P><P> </P><P> Want? </FONT></P><P></P><P>That is a conscious perspective as the critter is instinctive; it lives by the ‘light’ in all actions; to continue.</P><P></P><P>Consciousness is how to experience choice. It is how to experience life in the form of an isolated ‘I’…. </P><P></P><P>The instinct is always ‘purposed to continue’ but with choice, the purpose is often clouded by the learned knowledge of mind. </P><P></P><P>Hence the divisions of mankind and why any of us are even articulating; we can experience and comprehend what has passed and what comes 'before and after' the event. We can use consciousness to experience; what is, was and will be, simply of thought.</P><P> </P><P>It is what allows 'ideas' or even 'words' to exist. We (mankind) created them; consciously. </P><P> </P><P><FONT color=black></P><P> because many never really know what life is.</P><P> </P><P>the mind of ideas often clouds the truth of the experience</P><P> </P><P></FONT></P><P></P><P>Or the best is to trust you inner most, and allow the knowledge to be decided (observed) with absolute integrity.</P><P> </P><P></P><P>All of the religions share a day will come when each Will understanding; have faith in all that is (God) that the truth will be revealed.</P><P> </P><P>Have faith in God and yourself and not allow the words of man to isolate your mind from reality (God)</P><P> </P><P> </P><P><FONT face=' alt='P><P><FONT face='>CCC….. the collective conscious begets the beginning but that hasn’t happened yet; still learning. Read the works from the material (<st1:country-region><st1:place>peru</st1:place></st1:country-region>) you presented on this site; it’s all there in print Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bishadi Posted October 16, 2008 Report Share Posted October 16, 2008 Since Christians are forbidden to believe in a soul via <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com just a crack up coming from a person suggesting cows are pure (life giving) and that </FONT></FONT><st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> is blue</P><P></P><P>Thanx …… something to giggle about</P><P></P><P></P><P> Because the sciences follow the 2<SUP>nd</SUP> law of thermo as if it was pure. Almost like a religious person following their book as if pure. Each have a bias. <FONT color=black><FONT face=Verdana></P><P> </P><P> WHY?</FONT></FONT></P><P></P><P>Because neither have the truth themselves and perhaps when the practitioners awaken; they will combine being fair to each but allowing reality to reveal the absolute. <FONT color=black><FONT face=Verdana></P><P> </P><P> The soul is the energy (light) holding each ‘chemical’ together. </FONT></FONT></P><P></P><P>i.e… a dead person has all the chemicals and mass, but the ‘life’ left the building. <FONT color=black><FONT face=Verdana></P><P> </P><P> life is purposed to continue.</FONT></FONT></P><P></P><P>That one truth ruins entropy and the 2<SUP>nd</SUP> law. <FONT color=black><FONT face=Verdana></P><P> </P><P> Want? </FONT></FONT></P><P></P><P>That is a conscious perspective as the critter is instinctive; it lives by the ‘light’ in all actions; to continue.</P><P></P><P>Consciousness is how to experience choice. It is how to experience life in the form of an isolated ‘I’…. </P><P></P><P>The instinct is always ‘purposed to continue’ but with choice, the purpose is often clouded by the learned knowledge of mind. </P><P></P><P>Hence the divisions of mankind and why any of us are even articulating; we can experience and comprehend what has passed and what comes before and after the event. </P><P><FONT color=black><FONT face=Verdana></P><P> because many never really know what life is.</P><P> </P><P></FONT></FONT></P><P></P><P>Or the best is to trust you inner most, and allow the knowledge to be decided with absolute integrity.</P><P></P><P>All of the religions share a day will come when each Will understanding; have faith in all that is (God) that the truth will be revealed and do what is good follow the instinct of life “to continue”</P><P> </P><P> </P><P> </P><P></P><P><FONT face=' alt='P><P><FONT face='>CCC….. the collective conscious begets the beginning but that hasn’t happened yet; still learning. Read the works from the material (<st1:country-region><st1:place>peru</st1:place></st1:country-region>) you presented on this site; it’s all there Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suchandra Posted October 16, 2008 Report Share Posted October 16, 2008 Funny stuff… What decree….? just a crack up coming from a person suggesting cows are pure (life giving) and that <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> is blue Thanx …… something to giggle about CCC…..] Ah, you come here for fun and to giggle. Why not also to get educated? The Vatican decree says, non-Christians, animals and plants possess a purely "material soul" which simply ceases to exist at physical death. In other words, you are nothing more than a plastic bag full of chemicals, worth 5 dollars. Isn't this valuable knowledge for understanding who you are? Ok, this is a widespread believe that cows are not pure and should be killed - because they gas us with daily 350-500 liter methane. When Krsna says, cows should be protected, Bishadi comments, kill the cows, thanxx - something to giggle about. Well, there're surely lots of forums where you don't feel bored with giggling. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bishadi Posted October 17, 2008 Report Share Posted October 17, 2008 much of the day is in giggling in fact.. no joking; making folk laugh to the point of peeing is one of my favorite. Perhaps one a month for the last few years and one individual makes a point to do their business before coming into presence because no one knows what will come from me a gift of love as they make a mess as for the idea of the catholic (vatican) interpretation, somewhere you have your stories mixed up. ie... what is purgatory? Heaven and Hell? eternal damnation...? To the boys of rome, the soul is what you are saving. There may be an interpretation suggesting if a 'bad' person doesn't do good while alive, they will be forgotten (dead soul) but that is not different than many, many, many, misinterpretations one can 'find' from any religious group. if the adverse is what to focus on, then heck anyone could have a field day within any sect so the whole premise from me was that it was not fair to the 'other' team... to create a new line of deception as for the cow and blue guy, it was an example; everyone know cows are simply critters no different than the germs on your skin; killing is killing, no matter how small of how big; just depends on the tollerance and local acceptance. Ever here me suggest if someone was so pure never to kill, they would have a fine fresh scent about them? each (life) has a purpose in the good of life; for one form or another Heck even the dung is used for heating in some villages yet in other parts of the world it is rude to even handle the droppings, as human beings Such that cultures have created many forms of thoughts and beliefs, my presense is for knowledge and growth difference is, bias of anything but the absolute is bound to the sould so if you haven't been asked for assistance in knowledge perhaps your integrity is in question so in the whole of the post; giggling is normal, as well compassion of variety and equality and of the other extreme; a hammer of absolute truth call it a dance of sorts but always focused on the good (to support life) even if it makes a mess on the floor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ravindran Kesavan Posted October 17, 2008 Report Share Posted October 17, 2008 The Vatican decree says, non-Christians, animals and plants possess a purely "material soul" which simply ceases to exist at physical death. Dear Suchandra, This doesnot mean that Christians do not believe in souls. That conclution does not follow from the above premise. They Verynuch believe in soul. But what they dont believe in is the Soul of Animals and Plants. ( They are created as food for Human) ( And nonchristians perhaps - due to the religious prejudices ) They verymuch believe in the Soul of a (Christian) human being. Perhaps the only religion that doesn't admit a soul is Buddhism ( Anatmavada) . K.Ravindran Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suchandra Posted October 17, 2008 Report Share Posted October 17, 2008 somewhere you have your stories mixed up. ie... what is purgatory? Heaven and Hell? My point was simple, somehow you cannot understand even the simple. Let's say you have a box with a valuable diamond inside would you treat it the same way you treat a box with a few chemicals inside? Guess your gray cells say yes, it's all one. But you're wrong, not only wrong terribly stupid. Only a madman would throw away a box with a valuable jewel inside. Same what Krsna is saying, within every living entity is an eternal soul, part and parcel of God and therefore living entities have to be treated differently like the Church is teaching= there is no soul, it is all biological life=a bunch of chemicals=kill 'em. Real knowledge is taught by Lord Krsna, an eternal part of God is within every living entity and one should see with equal vision: vidyā-vinaya-sampanne brāhmaṇe gavi hastini śuni caiva śva-pāke ca paṇḍitāḥ sama-darśinaḥ SYNONYMS vidyā — with education; vinaya — and gentleness; sampanne — fully equipped; brāhmaṇe — in the brāhmaṇa; gavi — in the cow; hastini — in the elephant; śuni — in the dog; ca — and; eva — certainly; śva-pāke — in the dog-eater (the outcaste); ca — respectively; paṇḍitāḥ — those who are wise; sama-darśinaḥ — who see with equal vision. TRANSLATION The humble sages, by virtue of true knowledge, see with equal vision a learned and gentle brāhmaṇa, a cow, an elephant, a dog and a dog-eater [outcaste]. PURPORT A Kṛṣṇa conscious person does not make any distinction between species or castes. The brāhmaṇa and the outcaste may be different from the social point of view, or a dog, a cow, and an elephant may be different from the point of view of species, but these differences of body are meaningless from the viewpoint of a learned transcendentalist. This is due to their relationship to the Supreme, for the Supreme Lord, by His plenary portion as Paramātmā, is present in everyone's heart. Such an understanding of the Supreme is real knowledge. As far as the bodies are concerned in different castes or different species of life, the Lord is equally kind to everyone because He treats every living being as a friend yet maintains Himself as Paramātmā regardless of the circumstances of the living entities. The Lord as Paramātmā is present both in the outcaste and in the brāhmaṇa, although the body of a brāhmaṇa and that of an outcaste are not the same. The bodies are material productions of different modes of material nature, but the soul and the Supersoul within the body are of the same spiritual quality. The similarity in the quality of the soul and the Supersoul, however, does not make them equal in quantity, for the individual soul is present only in that particular body whereas the Paramātmā is present in each and every body. A Kṛṣṇa conscious person has full knowledge of this, and therefore he is truly learned and has equal vision. The similar characteristics of the soul and Supersoul are that they are both conscious, eternal and blissful. But the difference is that the individual soul is conscious within the limited jurisdiction of the body whereas the Supersoul is conscious of all bodies. The Supersoul is present in all bodies without distinction. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suchandra Posted October 17, 2008 Report Share Posted October 17, 2008 Dear Suchandra, This doesnot mean that Christians do not believe in souls. That conclution does not follow from the above premise. They Verynuch believe in soul. But what they dont believe in is the Soul of Animals and Plants. ( They are created as food for Human) ( And nonchristians perhaps - due to the religious prejudices ) They verymuch believe in the Soul of a (Christian) human being. Perhaps the only religion that doesn't admit a soul is Buddhism ( Anatmavada) . K.Ravindran How they can believe in something what is not mentioned in their law book, the bible? There is not one word explaining the soul within the whole bible. Soul is throughout the bible simply the equivalent of 'life' embodied in living creature. The present Christian conception of the soul is derived from the Greek, but not from the bible. Among the ancient Hebrews 'soul' was the equivalent of the principle of life as embodied in living creatures, and this meaning is continued throughout the bible. There're two terms in the bible nephesh and psuche, nephesh is defined as, a breathing creature, an animal; or, abstractly vitality. Psuche it likewise defined as the animal, sentient principle. The noted lexicographer Parkhurst, himself a believer in immortal soul says: "As a noun nephesh hath been supposed to signify the spiritual part of man, or what we commonly call his soul. I must for myself confess that I can find no passages where it hath undoubtedly this meaning. "Gen. 35:18, 1 Kings 17:21-22 and Psalms 16:10 seem fairest for this signification. But may not nephesh in the three former passages be most properly rendered 'breath,' and in the last, 'a breathing or animal frame'?" These quotations show clearly that the immortal soul doctrine is generally admitted by its supporters to be entirely different from the bible meaning of soul, and based mainly upon Greek philosophy. Nephesh occurs in the bible about 750 times. About 500 times it is translated as "soul" in the authorized version. The other 250 times it is translated by over 40 different English words. Psuche occurs about 100 times, and is translated similarly. It is quite obvious at the outset that a word of such broad application, including all the animal kingdom, all its bodily and physical aspects, cannot possibly indicate some immortal essence in man distinguishing him from the material elements. In sum, the bible is a literature for people who need moral instructions but doesnt contain any explanation of what is the soul. If you want knowledge about the soul this is only found in the Vedas but not in the bible. avināśi tu tad viddhi yena sarvam idaḿ tatam vināśam avyayasyāsya na kaścit kartum arhati SYNONYMS avināśi — imperishable; tu — but; tat — that; viddhi — know it; yena — by whom; sarvam — all of the body; idam — this; tatam — pervaded; vināśam — destruction; avyayasya — of the imperishable; asya — of it; na kaścit — no one; kartum — to do; arhati — is able. TRANSLATION That which pervades the entire body you should know to be indestructible. No one is able to destroy that imperishable soul. PURPORT This verse more clearly explains the real nature of the soul, which is spread all over the body. Anyone can understand what is spread all over the body: it is consciousness. Everyone is conscious of the pains and pleasures of the body in part or as a whole. This spreading of consciousness is limited within one's own body. The pains and pleasures of one body are unknown to another. Therefore, each and every body is the embodiment of an individual soul, and the symptom of the soul's presence is perceived as individual consciousness. This soul is described as one ten-thousandth part of the upper portion of the hair point in size. The Śvetāśvatara Upaniṣad (5.9) confirms this: bālāgra-śata-bhāgasya śatadhā kalpitasya ca bhāgo jīvaḥ vijñeyaḥ sa cānantyāya kalpate "When the upper point of a hair is divided into one hundred parts and again each of such parts is further divided into one hundred parts, each such part is the measurement of the dimension of the spirit soul." Similarly the same version is stated: keśāgra-śata-bhāgasya śatāḿśaḥ sādṛśātmakaḥ jīvaḥ sūkṣma-svarūpo 'yaḿ sańkhyātīto hi cit-kaṇaḥ [Cc. Madya 19.140] "There are innumerable particles of spiritual atoms, which are measured as one ten-thousandth of the upper portion of the hair." Therefore, the individual particle of spirit soul is a spiritual atom smaller than the material atoms, and such atoms are innumerable. This very small spiritual spark is the basic principle of the material body, and the influence of such a spiritual spark is spread all over the body as the influence of the active principle of some medicine spreads throughout the body. This current of the spirit soul is felt all over the body as consciousness, and that is the proof of the presence of the soul. Any layman can understand that the material body minus consciousness is a dead body, and this consciousness cannot be revived in the body by any means of material administration. Therefore, consciousness is not due to any amount of material combination, but to the spirit soul. In the Muṇḍaka Upaniṣad (3.1.9) the measurement of the atomic spirit soul is further explained: eṣo 'ṇur ātmā cetasā veditavyo yasmin prāṇaḥ pañcadhā saḿviveśa prāṇaiś cittaḿ sarvam otaḿ prajānāḿ yasmin viśuddhe vibhavaty eṣa ātmā "The soul is atomic in size and can be perceived by perfect intelligence. This atomic soul is floating in the five kinds of air (prāṇa, apāna, vyāna, samāna and udāna), is situated within the heart, and spreads its influence all over the body of the embodied living entities. When the soul is purified from the contamination of the five kinds of material air, its spiritual influence is exhibited." The haṭha-yoga system is meant for controlling the five kinds of air encircling the pure soul by different kinds of sitting postures — not for any material profit, but for liberation of the minute soul from the entanglement of the material atmosphere. So the constitution of the atomic soul is admitted in all Vedic literatures, and it is also actually felt in the practical experience of any sane man. Only the insane man can think of this atomic soul as all-pervading viṣṇu-tattva. The influence of the atomic soul can be spread all over a particular body. According to the Muṇḍaka Upaniṣad, this atomic soul is situated in the heart of every living entity, and because the measurement of the atomic soul is beyond the power of appreciation of the material scientists, some of them assert foolishly that there is no soul. The individual atomic soul is definitely there in the heart along with the Supersoul, and thus all the energies of bodily movement are emanating from this part of the body. The corpuscles which carry the oxygen from the lungs gather energy from the soul. When the soul passes away from this position, the activity of the blood, generating fusion, ceases. Medical science accepts the importance of the red corpuscles, but it cannot ascertain that the source of the energy is the soul. Medical science, however, does admit that the heart is the seat of all energies of the body. Such atomic particles of the spirit whole are compared to the sunshine molecules. In the sunshine there are innumerable radiant molecules. Similarly, the fragmental parts of the Supreme Lord are atomic sparks of the rays of the Supreme Lord, called by the name prabhā, or superior energy. So whether one follows Vedic knowledge or modern science, one cannot deny the existence of the spirit soul in the body, and the science of the soul is explicitly described in the Bhagavad-gītā by the Personality of Godhead Himself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suchandra Posted October 17, 2008 Report Share Posted October 17, 2008 From Wikipedia, the biggest online encyclopedia cannot be wrong: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immortality "Jehovah's Witnesses believe the word soul (nephesh or psykhe) as used in the Bible is a person, an animal, or the life a person or animal enjoys. Hence, the soul is not part of man, but is the whole man — man as a living being. Hence, when a person or animal dies, the soul dies, and death is a state of non-existence, based on Ezekiel 18:4.[24] Hell (hades or sheol) is not a place of fiery torment, but rather the common grave of humankind, a place of unconsciousness." When trying to understand the bible, whatever the Jehovah's Witnesses say has to be accepted as final truth. As you see above - right - there's no such thing as soul in Christianity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bishadi Posted October 17, 2008 Report Share Posted October 17, 2008 the experience of choice; is to be appreciated based on Ezekiel 18:4.[24] Hell (hades or sheol) is not a place of fiery torment, but rather the common grave of humankind, a place of unconsciousness. so let's visit Ezekiel's representation http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ez%2018;&version=15; Ez 18: 4 Lo, all the souls are Mine, As the soul of the father, So also the soul of the son -- they are Mine, The soul that is sinning -- it doth die. basically sharing what was mentioned earlier; the bad (loss to the common) perish (no longer remembered).. the Good (supports life to continue) live in what they do (karma) all are part of the total; existence or even the 24 (just in case of misunderstandings) Ez 18: 24And in the turning back of the righteous from his righteousness, And he hath done perversity, According to all the abominations That the wicked hath done, he doth -- thus he liveth, All his righteousnesses that he hath done are not remembered, For his trespass that he hath trespassed, And for his sin that he hath sinned, For them he doth die such that who would be the madman Only a madman would throw away a box with a valuable jewel inside. The one who sees the outside of the box or the one who understands what is within. ie..... the arrogance of a man (box) or the the lessons of 'good' within. So 2 points can be conveyed; One your integrity is suspect; as shared by the method, reference and intent of the posts you represent as true second; the truth of understanding has been here for quite some time and you have had no idea; you see the box, not the lessons. (the packaging less the heart) Guess your gray cells say yes, it's all one. But you're wrong, not only wrong terribly stupid. Be judged and live in your karma. Existence, (God) and little old me, are not much on forgiveness. None can undo what you choose to create of selfish deception. These posts share your heart, your intent and your choice of adversity for being true (selfishness) You are what you represent; live in it and be forgotten. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suchandra Posted October 17, 2008 Report Share Posted October 17, 2008 The one who sees the outside of the box or the one who understands what is within. This is not about realization but about the point that there is the concept of immortality of the soul as vedic principle. But there's no problem if you reject it - live and let live, you can believe what you like and what makes you feel good. In fact our whole city basically believes what you say, when death comes everything is finished. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CCC Posted October 17, 2008 Author Report Share Posted October 17, 2008 so the jiva is created with no end in the spiritual world or not? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Svarupa Posted October 17, 2008 Report Share Posted October 17, 2008 so the jiva is created with no end in the spiritual world or not? The jiva in its natural state serves in the ‘eternal present’ in Goloka Vrndavana or Vaikuntha worlds that, not only have no past or future as we trapped in the material world experience, but also has no beginning or end, birth or death, decay, pain or suffering. The eternal presents of Goloka with Krishna and His living entities is imperishable and therefore has always existed. The jivas were never created, we have always been. The Vedas mention creation because they are refering to the mahat tattva that is created and eventually destroyed. The Vaikunthas on the other hand, were NEVER created because the Kingdom of God has always been as you have mentioned in your quote of the Brahma samhita It is very hard trying to understand no beginning nor end then hear the paradox that Krishna created everything. There is no creation except for the mahat tattva or material 'creation' Vaikuntha has always been, will always be, and will never cease to be. Its all coming from within your heart, pray to Krishna and Guru to guide you, only then will you understand<!-- / message --><!-- sig --> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kaisersose Posted October 17, 2008 Report Share Posted October 17, 2008 so the jiva is created with no end in the spiritual world or not? I see you are troubled by inconsistent statements in your scriptures. The general solution is to brush unanswerable questions , inconsistent statements and contradictions under the carpet and pretend they do not exist. People - when they had similar questions - eventually realized these questions can never be answered and if left open, they would damage their spiritual beliefs. So they solved the problem as I have described above and it worked out very well for them. In my opinion, you do not have any other choice. Cheers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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