Hare Krsna Association, Hindu-ization and Other Things

[Svarupa]

Hare Krsna Association, Hindu-ization and Other Things

 

 

BY: KURMA DASA

 

 

Oct 18, AUSTRALIA (SUN) —

When I write my articles for the Sampradaya Sun, I write with hope -- hope for a better ISKCON, an ISKCON that gives everyone an opportunity to participate and serve Srila Prabhupada somehow or other.

 

 

 

Srila Prabhupada was not impartial and did not go about His Society kicking people out. His purports are His realizations, and how could we deny His realizations are for a better world, a better quality of human being, and a brother and sisterhood of association? Surely association cannot be based on the premise that we must accept manufactured conclusions? This is the case with today's ISKCON.

 

 

 

No reasonable attempt is ever made to discuss deviations, such as the 2/3rd majority voting system that stamps a person as a maha-bhagavat within ISKCON. You must accept this conclusion to participate or your participation is thwarted. This is the basis of association within ISKCON today! Of course, it has been the rudiment of association since Srila Prabhupada left us physically in 1977.

 

 

 

So many members disenfranchised, lives broken and schism, because (on a world scale) a handful of selfish and foolish imposters want to play Jesus. ISKCON is in great chaos due to the selfishness of this handful of men and their sycophant supporters.

 

 

 

Only yesterday, one Indian gentlemen came by my place of work. I don't know this man. I have never met him before. He saw that I was a Hare Krishna, and was quite surprised. He asked me a few questions about myself, and then began to pour out his heart regarding his experiences at ISKCON's Melbourne Temple. He showed me a copy of a restraining order which prevented both he and some other members coming within five meters of each other.

 

 

 

He also showed other documentation regarding his success in the court. He

successfully

challenged ISKCON regarding his attendance at the temple. In other words, the court ruled that on the basis of evidence provided from Srila Prabhupada's teachings, the temple authorities had no right whatsoever to kick him out, hence the laughable 5 meter distance of restraint at the temple.

 

 

 

Anyhow, it seems if you're a Vaisnava, then legally you cannot be refused entry to ISKCON temples. Of course, if I was to hear the other side of the story, I would likely be told he is a demon, or a snake, or other --- wouldn't I?

 

 

 

He also told me that some Hindu devotees within ISKCON practice black magic, and that they curse people who don't adhere to their bogus philosophy. This is not the first time I have heard this either, so there is probably some truth in it. By the way, it is against the law to practice black magic in Australia, and the police take it very seriously!

 

 

 

Is there no one within ISKCON's leadership today who wants to be peacemakers? Are they really so disgustingly arrogant that they would rather Srila Prabhupada's Society crumble, for the sake of their own selfish ambition? Their philosophy regarding guru, management of the Society, etc. is finished and gone. The saner members will never accept it!

 

 

Why continue down such a road?

 

 

Kurma (the inspiring writer)

 

 

 

[bhaktajan]

"copy of a restraining order" = an "Order of protection" --issued by Civil Courts by a Bonefide Judge--this is required to keep away unruly/dangerous people from innocent people.

 

If a person harrases another person and it is duly documented for the review by Civil Law Authorities --then there is good reason for the "Restraining Order" to be issued.

 

"Restraining Order(s)" are infamously known to be issued to protect a women from her estranged ex-husband etc.

 

To receive a "Restraining Order" is to be called a "persona-non-grata" --an unwelcomed person.

 

It is like saying that a person was convicted and proven guilty and then afterwards the same person wants to hover freely amongsts his past victims.

 

This Kurma rupa fellow is quite the propagandist-- no facts were presented. If a person is accused of being a "persona-non-grata" by the heads of an institution --then the situation is clear enough as to who the real slim-shady is: a "persona-non-grata". FIN. {The other 'so-called facts' of Kurma's story are all one-sided--[i wonder how that could be?]}

 

But Victims have rights too. Don't they? Do Victims have rights too?

 

.......................................................

I saw recently on TV News:

Young thief steals car -- and then police chase him-- then he crases into a car in the intersection at such a rate of speed that he slices the rear half of the car away from the front half and kills two young family siblings.

 

The Thief survived and will first, officially plead 'not-guity' --then the victims surviving members [including the mother who was driving the ill-fated car] will duly pay their local & state & federal Taxes for a well-educated Lawyer & medical & dental & lodging & transportation & clothing for the Thief's incarceration --and these Victims are just the latest tax-payers to be added to the list of "Victims who subsidise criminal behavior".

 

PS: the stock-market losses to retirement funds is an example of people investing in "god-knows-what-machinations" --only to be reverse-cheated by tripping karmic circuit-brakers [to use an electrician's reference]--this may have well been a blessing in disguise (for the investors who lost)--since almost all investments are networked among eachother, so those who lost now are spared larger funky-karmic dividends later.

[Kulapavana]

"No reasonable attempt is ever made to discuss deviations, such as the 2/3rd majority voting system that stamps a person as a maha-bhagavat within ISKCON". Kurma (the liar)

 

 

No such thing... nobody is saying that people approved by GBC to take disciples are maha-bhagavats.

 

Lie #1: "All gurus are maha-bhagavats"

Lie #2: "GBC is rubber stamping bogus gurus"

Lie #3: "GBC is rubber stamping fake maha bhagavats"

 

Clowns like him give our movement a bad name, just like the Bhavanandas, Kirtanannandas, Hansaduttas of the past.

[suchandra]

 

"No reasonable attempt is ever made to discuss deviations, such as the 2/3rd majority voting system that stamps a person as a maha-bhagavat within ISKCON". Kurma (the liar)

 

 

No such thing... nobody is saying that people approved by GBC to take disciples are maha-bhagavats.

 

Lie #1: "All gurus are maha-bhagavats"

Lie #2: "GBC is rubber stamping bogus gurus"

Lie #3: "GBC is rubber stamping fake maha bhagavats"

 

Clowns like him give our movement a bad name, just like the Bhavanandas, Kirtanannandas, Hansaduttas of the past.

What you actually mean by approved? Can an "approved guru" for example fall down? And leave his disciples in great confusion?

Approved - and what happens if a guru is not approved?

Can he still be a bona fide guru?

For example a not "approved guru" does great preaching work and opens lots of temples and makes many people to chant the holy name, is he still "not approved"?

Just trying to find out what this "approved" actually means?

 

 

Clowns like him give our movement a bad name, just like the Bhavanandas, Kirtanannandas, Hansaduttas of the past.

 

Do you mean to say that so many others who deviated, like Harikes, did not give our movement a bad name?

[Kulapavana]

 

What you actually mean by approved? Can an "approved guru" for example fall down? And leave his disciples in great confusion?

Approved - and what happens if a guru is not approved?

Can he still be a bona fide guru?

For example a not "approved guru" does great preaching work and opens lots of temples and makes many people to chant the holy name, is he still "not approved"?

Just trying to find out what this "approved" actually means?

 

 

 

Do you mean to say that so many others who deviated, like Harikes, did not give our movement a bad name?

 

Some 90% of sannyasis approved by Prabhupada fell down. Proof positive that approval is no guarantee of success. When he approved them, were they proper (bona fide) sannyasis? When they fell down, did it not create confusion among the devotees?

 

Srila Prabhupada had in mind a guru approval system as well - you pass the Bhaktivedanta level exam and you can start initiating your own disciples. That was his plan. He certainly approved before his passing several persons as initiating gurus - most of them fell down. Again, proof positive that approval is no guarantee of success.

 

So somehow Srila Prabhupada's system was all perfect, and the GBC system is all wrong?? That is as bogus as it gets...

 

The list of our deviants is very long and Harikesa's name is on it too - I just listed some of the more abhorrent ones.

[Amlesh]

Approved Gurus... and what is left to hear.

 

That's the problem of this nowadays world... everything is mechanized.

 

Iskcon has a academical syllabus to form Gurus... really pathetic.

 

Vaishnavism has lost its natural flair which is its Trade Mark.

 

I think people should read the work of R.K Narayan [especially The Guide] and watch the latest movie of Shyam Benegal and get an idea what Transcendence is.

[ARJ]

In U.S. one can become a Yoga Guru after 200 hrs. of training, there's an intense course of 400 hrs. The no. of hrs decides how good a yogi is.

 

& i'm still wondering what is this thread doing here ? isn't this an 'ISKCON Internal' matter ?

[Amlesh]

Before we used to go fishing to have some nice Tuna.... [it's the expression, rest assured I'm a Vegan].

 

Today we get the same canned from Factories.

 

Sanyasisyon ka bhi yehi haalat hua hein.

[suchandra]

 

Some 90% of sannyasis approved by Prabhupada fell down. Proof positive that approval is no guarantee of success. When he approved them, were they proper (bona fide) sannyasis? When they fell down, did it not create confusion among the devotees?

 

Srila Prabhupada had in mind a guru approval system as well - you pass the Bhaktivedanta level exam and you can start initiating your own disciples. That was his plan. He certainly approved before his passing several persons as initiating gurus - most of them fell down. Again, proof positive that approval is no guarantee of success.

 

So somehow Srila Prabhupada's system was all perfect, and the GBC system is all wrong?? That is as bogus as it gets...

 

The list of our deviants is very long and Harikesa's name is on it too - I just listed some of the more abhorrent ones.

To compare a simple renunciate sannyasi, ashram of vedic society with parampara guru, spiritual master of the most important sampradaya, full-fledged diksa-guru? Isn't this like comparing two totally different terms? To say that when sannyasis fall down therefore gurus might possibly also fall down, just doesn't makes sense - clearly shows how people live in a total illusion, lost touch with reality.

 

It's like comparing gold and iron, irrelevant analogy. But that's where we're presently heading to drag down the position of a parampara-guru to something very ordinary and people taxing their brain all day, what the heck do I have to worship a guru?

 

ISKCON gurus even thinking that the pope also considers himself as representative of God, another illusion, this is wrong.

 

The pope considers himself as officiating priest and Jesus as representative of God. How someone can be so stupid to say that the pope considers himself as Jesus?

 

Prabhupada never spoke of something like, "a diksa-guru approval system", this can be indeed called, as bogus as it gets..

[Sarva gattah]

 

"No reasonable attempt is ever made to discuss deviations, such as the 2/3rd majority voting system that stamps a person as a maha-bhagavat within ISKCON". Kurma (the liar)

 

 

No such thing... nobody is saying that people approved by GBC to take disciples are maha-bhagavats.

 

Lie #1: "All gurus are maha-bhagavats"

Lie #2: "GBC is rubber stamping bogus gurus"

Lie #3: "GBC is rubber stamping fake maha bhagavats".

 

Clowns like him give our movement a bad name.

 

Good points Kulapavana

Also the nonsense talk of black magic is kurma dasa (the writer, not the chef or what ever) being paranoid that certainly does not exist at Melbourne and frankly is laughable.

 

The fact is, Melbourne ISKCON is just a young in-experienced Temple in its pioneering immature stages and in time the devotees will mature. Aniruddha Prabhu (the Temple President) is actually a dedicated sincere soul and deep down I admire him for what he has achieved, even though he and his GBC Ramai Swami have a lot to learn about human dealings and relationships, especially Ramai Swami who is often very aloof and subtly impersonal.

 

Kurma (not the chef) however, also in some of his writings does make some interesting points, he just needs more of the association of the devotees. Instead of critizing Melbourne ISKCON, he should help them.

 

Well, even that can be difficult there in Melbourne because if you help them too much they become envious and say nastily 'To much devotion is the sign of a thief'

Yes, it is a fact ISKCON Australia is not very advanced spiritually, but that will change over time as Lord Caitanya predicted

 

As far as spiritual advancement is concerned then, as the old saying goes - 'One cannot go from kindergarten to University over night'

All of us will be tested to see if it is Krishna we really want to serve or if there is some hidden agenda.

[suchandra]

 

 

especially Ramai Swami who is often very aloof and subtly impersonal.

 

 

What to except if persons like Ramai Swami demand to be worshiped as good as God, saksad dhari?

 

If he says on one side, I'm God's mouthpiece, everything I say, is exactly what God is saying, you have to worship me exactly like you would worship God, and on the other side people say, he is "often very aloof and subtly impersonal", then there must be something terribly wrong and he has to be told to step down from his absolutism of demanding to be worshiped as good as God.

[Kulapavana]

 

To compare a simple renunciate sannyasi, ashram of vedic society with parampara guru, spiritual master of the most important sampradaya, full-fledged diksa-guru? Isn't this like comparing two totally different terms? To say that when sannyasis fall down therefore gurus might possibly also fall down, just doesn't makes sense - clearly shows how people live in a total illusion, lost touch with reality.

 

Srila Prabhupada's disciples introduced a notion, that the only real and bona-fide guru is a maha-bhagavata sampradaya acharya. That is a complete concoction. SP says in NOD that even a kanishta bhakta can be a guru. And very often this is precisely who gets approved by the GBC. Are you shocked that a kanistha guru falls down? I'm not.

 

What I wrote above is to show that approval does not ensure success. A sannyasi is a natural guru. Prahupada started initiating disciples in Jhansi, even before he became sannyasi, but after taking sannyasa he initiated quite a few people rather quickly (that was still in India). To his senior Godbrothers he explained that as a sannyasi, he must take on disciples. And nobody in GM had a problem with that, because this a vedic system.

 

Now some of Srila Prabhupada's disciples invented a bizzare set of rules, under which the only bona fide guru for ever is Srila Prabhupada. And they act surprised when everybody considers them to be a bunch of deviants.

[suchandra]

 

And very often this is precisely who gets approved by the GBC. Are you shocked that a kanistha guru falls down? I'm not.

 

 

Agreed, with this system it can happen that they nominate kanistha-adikaris to sit on the vyasasana of the Brahma-Madhva-Gaudiya Sampradaya.

And calling such gurus, approved.

 

Somehow people are not properly informed in toto about this situation. They demand so much from disciples, but why don't they write a resolution, which says, our approved gurus might not be able to stay in this position as spiritual master, but might eventually leave or even fall down?

 

If people read this and still take initiation then it would be fair in case such a guru falls down. Otherwise, the very word spiritual master, simply says, this person has mastered spiritual disciplines up to the point of being a fully self-realized personality, everything what you associate with the term "master". Clear case of delusion, deception and misleading.

 

Just like you get a medicine, the law says that on the information and direction for use there has to be also a clear description about the side effects of this medicine. This is legitimate that people are not only informed one sided but what can happen as a secondary effect.

 

What presently is done is that people are being told, "our spiritual masters are approved". Why they are afraid to say, they might be kanisthas, quit office, fall down, become suspended, excommunicated, etc etc.

[Kulapavana]

 

What presently is done is that people are being told, "our spiritual masters are approved". Why they are afraid to say, they might be kanisthas, quit office, fall down, become suspended, excommunicated, etc etc.

 

I talk to a lot of new people in our movement and they are far, far from being poorly informed. They all know the basic history of Iskcon and none of them think that their chosen guru is above the possibility of a fall-down. They often approach devotees that have been around for a long time for advice in chosing a guru. And they usually chose wisely. Maybe in Africa, India, or Asia, it is different, but in Europe and USA things are just like I described.

 

Also, many devotees who initially start in Iskcon end up chosing a guru from other organizations. I see it all the time.

[suchandra]

 

 

Also, many devotees who initially start in Iskcon end up chosing a guru from other organizations. I see it all the time.

Thanks for clarifying. Let me translate this so my Joe Public brain can understand.

Mujibar earned some money and built a house. He considers to connect his house to the electric power supply.

 

In the village pub someone tells him that he would do it really cheap. This man looks like to run the cable but doesn't know how to actually get connected to the supplier of electric energy.

 

Instead he tells Mujibar to give him some money and to move the light switch back and forth. Mujibar moves the light switch all day but no electricity is reaching his place.

 

Finally Mujibar concludes electricity is something bad, something that doesn't work, becomes frustrated and loses his faith. In the village pub they tell him, what is also stated above, chose another.

 

But why not go to the authorized electrician in the first place?

 

A genuine spiritual master doesn't need to be an academic, but as soon you are initiated by him you know 100%, initiation business completed, I'm connected with the powerhouse of the parampara, no need to look somewhere else. How can it be otherwise?

[Kulapavana]

 

Finally Mujibar concludes electricity is something bad, something that doesn't work, becomes frustrated and loses his faith. In the village pub they tell him, what is also stated above, chose another.

 

But why not go to the authorized electrician in the first place?

 

 

How do you know you have electricity in your house? Because your lights are on.

 

I see plenty of lights outside Iskcon and Prabhupada disciples, and quite a few dark corners inside the institution Prabhupada created.

 

Let me translate that so that Joe Public brain can understand:

 

The claims that only Prabhupada is authorized as a Vaishnava acharya are 100% bogus.

[suchandra]

 

 

 

The claims that only Prabhupada is authorized as a Vaishnava acharya are 100% bogus.

Wish you were right, but when it comes to Krsna's parampara system things look not so clear as you say.

 

We have to find out whom Krsna considers as His representative of the parampara system. Since siksa-guru is of greater importance than formal diksa-guru and presently all Vaishnava leaders quote Prabhupada, Prabhupada is actually the siksa-guru of all of us.

 

This doesn't have anything to do with present Vaishnava leaders. They might be doing first class devotional service. Or some might lacking behind.

 

But since their lecturing is based upon quoting Prabhupada, they actually admit that Prabhupada is their siksa-guru.

 

In other words, 300 years from now you will read in the list of guru-parampara, Srila Prabhupada was siksa-guru of them all, they didn't present a new chapter of refined vedic siddhanta but repeated what Prabhupada presented in his books.

 

Therefore, Prabhupada will show up as link of the parampara but nobody else. May be in future a new powerful acarya will appear who makes a new produce of Prabhupada's work of a lifetime. But presently we can say, they all teach basically what Prabhupada established. Therefore he's the current link, even if presently there are pure Vaishnavas among us - they all base their teachings upon Prabhupada's books.

 

If Krsna also sees it that way, Prabhupada as link to Krsna's parampara system, then as you say, people who don't follow might not know what real light is, but might moving the light switch back and forth in vain. Nothing will happen, they ultimately feel only darkness unless they understand how the parampara is functioning.