death of Jesus, love, etc.

[paarsurrey]

AmmasiswariWrote:

http://www.indiadivine.org/audarya/ammachi/222176-re-death-jesus-love-

etc.html#post1116626 on 12-14-2005 in the Ammachi sub-forum

 

Dear Ananthasree,

Although I'm not a Christian, I'm married to a devoted Catholic and I'm sure he

would

disagree with this stereotype of Christianity being so focused on the death of

Jesus' body

(Mel Gibson's fixation with the blood and gore in his film aside!). He'd say the

point of the

crucifixion isn't the physical death, but that Jesus sacrificed himself out of

supreme love.

So, even though the whole crucifixion-redemption scenario doesn't resonate for

me,

personally, I can appreciate how others feel it as an ultimate act of Divine

mercy.

Blessings,

Iswari

Paarsurrey says:

Hi

I am sorry to say that Jesus dieing a cursed death on Cross for the imaginary sins of the Christians is only a mythical creed invented by Paul; not by Jesus himself. This is how the followers of religion corrupt his life account and its founder.

Just think talking of love and then offering a deity so cruel to kill his only begotten son this way! Can there be anything more mythical than this.

This way we learn as to how the message sent by ONE- on High, on His messengers is lost under debris of time. Here is a lesson to learn.

This is what I firmly believe in faith-with-eyes; others could believe what they think is right. There is no compulsion in religion. I respect everybody's religion.

Thanks

P.S

When I wrote a post on Jesus not dieing on Cross;Similar Threads showed the title of this thread; which was lying idle since 2005, not knowing this I commented on it. Now I have copy/pasted it here for attention of the members.

[srikanthdk71]

 

Hi

 

I am sorry to say that Jesus dieing a cursed death on Cross for the imaginary sins of the Christians is only a mythical creed invented by Paul; not by Jesus himself. This is how the followers of religion corrupt his life account and its founder.

 

Just think talking of love and then offering a deity so cruel to kill his only begotten son this way! Can there be anything more mythical than this.

 

Jesus was a great yogi. He had almost all powers. He did not use it when he was alive. Thats the reason why he resurrected after his death. Only a profound yogi can do that like Yukteshwar (disciple of Lahiri Mahashaya and Guru of Sri Paramahansa Yogananda) or a Shirdi Sai Baba. They lived for mankind and not to utilise their powers. Even Krishna did not use his powers to protect Arjuna. He used his wit only.

[Catholic devotee of Christ]

Hello, to paarsurrey. I wish to respond to your post as I believe their are some serious discrepancies in how you are portraying my faith. I realize that many factors have come into play arising in many conflicts. It is a very sad thing when any religious group claims to have the sole monopoly on the truth. Truth can be found in all religions. The Catholic Church believes that 'salvation' (choose your own interpretation of this) CAN be found outside of its doors.

 

<!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote --> Quote:

<table width="100%" border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0"> <tbody><tr> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(102, 102, 102); padding-left: 3ex; padding-right: 3ex;" bgcolor="#e0e0e0"> Originally Posted by paarsurrey

Hi

I am sorry to say that Jesus dieing a cursed death on Cross for the imaginary sins of the Christians is only a mythical creed invented by Paul; not by Jesus himself. This is how the followers of religion corrupt his life account and its founder.

</td> </tr> </tbody></table>

<!-- END TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote -->The concept of Christ's death is a very comforting one to me. The gospels contain many instances of Jesus foretelling of His death and resurrection. As for the apostle St. Paul, he was converted through a vision after having been a persecutors of Christians. He was not even necessarily accepted by Christians at first until his story corroborated with theirs. Christ frequently finds the most unlikely of individuals to use in his message of mercy and compassion.<!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote --> Quote:

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Just think talking of love and then offering a deity so cruel to kill his only begotten son this way! Can there be anything more mythical than this.

</td> </tr> </tbody></table>

<!-- END TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote -->We believe that Jesus IS God.Much the way Krisna devotees believe that Krisna is Vishnu; And much the way Sai Baba devotees believe that Sai Baba is Shiva. Much the same way that Shiva and Vishnu are Brahma.(I apologize if my understanding is in error. Please forgive me and correct me if I am wrong.) God gave His own life willingly to atone for the wrongs of humankind. I also would like to add that Catholics interpret the Bible in a contextual fashion as opposed to a literal fashion as the modern fundamentalists are inclined to do.<!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote --> <table width="100%" border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0"><tbody><tr><td style="border: 1px solid rgb(102, 102, 102); padding-left: 3ex; padding-right: 3ex;" bgcolor="#e0e0e0">This way we learn as to how the message sent by ONE- on High, on His messengers is lost under debris of time. Here is a lesson to learn.

 

This is what I firmly believe in faith-with-eyes; others could believe what they think is right. There is no compulsion in religion. I respect everybody's religion.

 

Thanks </td> </tr> </tbody></table> <!-- END TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote -->This statement I can agree with.However, Jesus has said that blessed are they who have not seen and yet still believe. There is a mystery to faith. It is a type of a magic. Although, my fellow Catholics would cringe to hear me call it a magic, so to speak. I can think of no other universal term to explain it in.

 

Jesus' message is one of peace, love and compassion and mercy. Ahimsa. No harm.

[bhaktajan]

Jesu Cristo Died to be re-born = You are the soul not the body

 

 

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Jesu Cristo Died to be re-born = You are the soul not the body

The opening Postings above are fervent and demonstrate a devotional sentiment that is admirable in itself--but lacking in proper scholarship.

One must consult the original Greek, Aramaic, and Hebrew original text(s) inorder to better find hidden spiritual parallel maxims.

The glory of Srila Prabhupada is that he provides us with pristine versions of ancient text that heretofore was unobtainable, thus paving a way for countless 'sanskrit' scholars. Linguistically, we Vaishnava intellectuals are tired of combing though arcane texts that seem to be so obviously convoluted from the almost every word--so much fluff with so little nectar to derive for the effort.

Since Avataras appear according to time, place and mentality of the general population--it is my opinion that the meanings behind the advent and earthly pastimes of our Favorite Boddhisattva: Jesu Cristo was plain and simple as per the common polulace and an era that preceeded him and especially for the era proceeding him:

"Jesus died and rose from the dead" -- this is the sum and substance of his buisness here on earth 2000 years ago.

this is beause:

The first rule for beginner of Yoga life is:

"We are not this material body, we are spirit souls in this material world".

Thus, any simply and uneducated common person living in the Roman empire and throughout the known world at that time would be forced to reconcile the gosple of Christ's pastimes and immediately conceed that 'the soul is not temporal but transcendental, etc etc etc., and all conceeded with nothing other than faith to anchor this Philosophcal maxim'--such a thing is on its on strength enough to set the course of history for the proceeding two centuries . . .

Anyone who disputes this simply must look at the example of Jusus Christ.

"A soul is a soul is a soul is a soul."

"What's in a name? That which we call a soul

By any other name would smell as sweet."

[bhaktajan]

Jesus was not vaisnava --but he was sent by Visnu

 

 

 

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There was more to Jesus's knowledge and mission, but he said that he could not yet reveal, at that time and place.

All Avataras and all the Devatas worship Visnu [as Srila Prabhupada says].

All avataras preach as per time and place.

Jesus was so empowered that he could have performed much more elaborate pastimes ie: take the thrown of the David etc but he didn't --it was a lousy time and place for avataras.

The workings of saving souls occurs between long stretches of time during which much suffering is the rule. This is par for the course in the material world especially during the wind-down time of the cycles of 4 ages.

"We are not the body we are spirit souls" --everyone in history up until the present is beholding to Jesus for this revelation.

[bhaktajan]

"ISKCON" —the International Society for Krishna Consciousness, has many facets to it purpose for existing.

In my opinion the real primary reason for the existence of ISKCON is to spread the fame of "who is this Krishna ".

Krishna Consciousness is all about the Supreme Personality of God, Krishna .

 

It is not: International Society for "ISKCON" Consciousness.

But only adherents of ISKCON's ashrams are trained to be able to spread the news of "who is this Krishna ".

Historically the pattern is thus:

The life force is an 'active' entity—thus the different creatures each possess 'life-force' , thus they are all animated and conscious.

We and all other living beings enjoy via: eating, sleeping, mating and defending—this is the status quo of 'life'. All forms of life pursue these 4 categorical goals, day after day, life after life indefinitely since the beginning of time.

The world based on the laws of duality, so invariably there are opposing forces imposed against us. Therefore birth, death old age and disease are gross manifestations of these laws of duality.

So, all living entities are enjoying but they also are suffering—it really occurs but it is also just a temporary passing event in the passage of time.

As we pursue absolute and consistent happiness we are always paying our karmic bills with more and more hardwork—this is the 'status quo' due to the laws of duality manifest as a type of 'Murphy's Law'. The ironic outcome of our actions in this material world form a vicious circle—it always seems inescapable—except for spiritual aspirants.

Muslim Koran: assisted those to rise above nomadic existentialism.

Judeo-Christian Bible: teaches duties for gradual attainment of happiness—-and when Jesus rose from the dead it taught that we are not the body but spirit soul.

 

Buddhist sutras: Hindu born reformation with lessons in discarding ones own ego and thus repeated births.

Indian Vedas: pre-western history replete with all the traditional yoga systems practiced by the maharajas and sages of antiquity.

Modern history records nations engaged in the culture of enjoyment followed by war followed by enjoyment followed by war ad-infinitum. So, those who seek after a higher purpose [or escape from the mundane] surrender unto God.

In the above mentioned scriptures God is represented as an Impersonal-Void, as a mysterious spirit, an old man, and finally as Krishna , an eternal youth.

But nobody cares for such pursuits. Most eras are full of people seeking pleasures at all costs right up to the moment of death. This ethos is due to being uneducated [from an early age] in the rules of yoga.

This is where Iskcon comes into the picture. The members of the Krishna Temples around the world are learning [albeit, by instructors comprised by every and all people living at any particular time at any particular temple rather than an "official teacher of novices"] all of the ultra orthodox authentic, bonefide traditional ancient Yoga practices as they were originally were practiced in ancient times.

'Nirvana' is not an eternal state of being, it is temporary and requires very unattractive austerities all in pursuit of the 'void'.

The glaring light of the 'brahmajyoti' is also not an eternal destination and refuge for the spirit soul—this is what is sought after by the 'impersonal' school of thought of Hindu spiritualists, famously written in the metaphysics of the 'sunyavadi' or 'mayavadi' philosophies. If the guru cannot describe Godhead, in detail, then the guru is an impersonalist for who god has no form and thus the guru is classified as an atheist.

Unfortunately, good deeds are good only in so far as they keep one in good graces, yet still in the line of karmic fire.

Here's a very-very esoteric verse from the Vedas:

SB 7.6.4: Endeavors merely for sense gratification or material happiness through economic development are not to be performed, for they result only in a loss of time and energy, with no actual profit. If one’s endeavors are directed toward Krishna consciousness [bhakti-yoga], one can surely attain the spiritual platform of self-realization [krsna-prema]. There is no such benefit from engaging oneself in economic development.

SB 7.7.23: There are two kinds of bodies for every individual soul—a gross body made of five gross elements and a subtle body made of three subtle elements. Within these bodies, however, is the spirit soul. One must find the soul by analysis, saying, “This is not it. This is not it.” Thus one must separate spirit from matter.

 

PURPORT

As previously stated, svarnam yatha gravasu hema-karah ksetresu yogais tad-abhijna apnuyat. An expert in the study of soil can find out where gold is and then dig there. He can then analyze the stone and test the gold with nitric acid. Similarly, one must analyze the whole body to find within the body the spirit soul.

In studying one’s own body, one must ask himself whether his head is his soul, his fingers are his soul, his hand is his soul, and so on. In this way, one must gradually reject all the material elements and the combinations of material elements in the body. Then, if one is expert and follows the acarya, he can understand that he is the spiritual soul living within the body. The greatest acarya, Krishna , begins His teachings in Bhagavad-gita by saying:

 

dehino ’smin yatha dehe

kaumaram yauvanam jara

tatha dehantara-praptir

dhiras tatra na muhyati

 

“As the embodied soul continually passes, in this body, from boyhood to youth to old age, the soul similarly passes into another body at death. The self-realized soul is not bewildered by such a change.” (Bg. 2.13) The spirit soul possesses the body and is within the body. This is the real analysis. The soul never mixes with the bodily elements. Although the soul is within the body, it is separate and always pure.

One must analyze and understand his self. This is self-realization. Neti neti is the analytical process of rejecting matter. By expertly conducting such an analysis, one can understand where the soul is. One who is not expert, however, cannot distinguish gold from earth, nor the soul from the body.

SB 7.7.51-52:

You cannot please the Supreme Personality of Godhead by becoming perfect brahmanas, demigods or great saints or by becoming perfectly good in etiquette or vast learning. None of these qualifications can awaken the pleasure of the Lord. Nor by charity, austerity, sacrifice, cleanliness or vows can one satisfy the Lord. The Lord is pleased only if one has unflinching, unalloyed devotion to Him. Without sincere devotional service, everything is simply a show.

 

PURPORT:

Prahlada Maharaja concludes that one can become perfect by serving the Supreme Lord sincerely by all means. Material elevation to life as a brahmana, demigod, rsi and so on are not causes for developing love of Godhead, but if one sincerely engages in the service of the Lord, his Krsna consciousness is complete.

 

This is confirmed in Bhagavad-gita (9.30):

 

api cet su-duracaro

bhajate mam ananya-bhak

sadhur eva sa mantavyah

samyag vyavasito hi sah

 

“Even if one commits the most abominable actions, if he is engaged in devotional service he is to be considered saintly because he is properly situated.” To develop unalloyed love for Krsna is the perfection of life. Other processes may be helpful, but if one does not develop his love for Krsna, these other processes are simply a waste of time.

 

dharmah svanusthitah pumsam

visvaksena-kathasu yah

notpadayed yadi ratim

srama eva hi kevalam

“Duties [dharma] executed by men, regardless of occupation, are only so much useless labor if they do not provoke attraction for the message of the Supreme Lord.” (Bhag. 1.2.8) The test of perfection is one’s unalloyed devotion to the Lord.

Iskcon represents the theistic school of The Hindu Vedas.

 

A.C. Bhaktivedanta swami was a scholar of the this school of 'Vaishnava-ism' [Visnu-ites] .

[theist]

 

I am sorry to saythat Jesus dieing a cursed death on Cross for the imaginary sins of theChristians is only a mythical creed invented by Paul; not by Jesushimself. This is how the followers of religion corrupt his life accountand its founder.

Jesus dying on the cross for the sins of the world was not the main message of Jesus dying on the cross. Although it is a fact that He was empowered to forgive sins and to take on the sins of all who turn to Him with faith.

This idea is common in Indian traditions as well. Prabhupada disciples believe that their past karma is greatly dimished when they surrender to the guru.

Jesus employed the same principle on a world wide scale, one that streches over 2,000 years.

You are very right that the Christians have wrongly emphasized Christ dying for their sins while ignoring what He told His disciples as He was going to be crucified, "Pick up your cross and follow Me".

The ones that do that are the real Christians and their sins were forgiven and incur no new ones by following Christ's teachings. They are maybe 10% of those that claim to be Christians.

I offer them all respects.

Just think talking of love and then offering a deity so cruel to killhis only begotten son this way! Can there be anything more mythicalthan this.

 

First thing we must remember is Jesus Christ did not 'die' on the cross. To think so is superficial. There is no death for any soul.

 

Have you read about Haridas Thakur and how he was beaten through 22 market places and only agreed to finally 'die' when he learned his tormenters would be killed by the king if they could not kill him.

 

The similarities to the Christ story are striking. Haridas went into trance and came back to life some time later. That was his resurrection.

 

The Romans and Jews did not kill Christ on the cross, He allowed it to happen.

[theist]

 

Jesus was not vaisnava --but he was sent by Visnu

 

Bhaktajan, you need to upgrade your definition of Vaisnava.

[theist]

 

We believe that Jesus IS God.Much the way Krisna devotees believe that Krisna is Vishnu;

 

Yes many Christians believe this but it is incorrect and against the teachings of Jesus Himself.

 

Jesus says "I and the Father are one". But then He says "the Father is greater than I".

 

This is the same teaching that Caitanya Mahaprabhu taught 1,500 years later in India when He was here. Oneness and simultaneous difference.

[bhaktajan]

Quote:

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""Bhaktajan, you need to upgrade your definition of Vaisnava.""

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Krishna says in the Gita 4.7:

"Whenever and wherever there is a decline in religious practice, --and a predominant rise of irreligion—at that time I descend Myself."

::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

Ergo, a burning bush; a profit; stone tablets; sacrificial lamb; a paramahansa; a boddhisattva; et al --all according to time and place as per the receptivity/cultural sophistication of the masses present.

--Is this speculation on my part [since Krsna is quoted as saying, 'I descend Myself']?<!-- sig -->

[Catholic devotee of Christ]

 

Yes many Christians believe this but it is incorrect and against the teachings of Jesus Himself.

 

Jesus says "I and the Father are one". But then He says "the Father is greater than I".

 

This is the same teaching that Caitanya Mahaprabhu taught 1,500 years later in India when He was here. Oneness and simultaneous difference.

I am sorry to disappoint you, theist.I am sure your intentions are good.

 

- For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor,Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. Isaiah 9:6- “You are My witnesses,” says the Lord, “And My servant whom I have chosen, That you may know and believe Me, and understand that I am He.Before me there was no God formed, Nor shall there be after Me. I, even I, am the Lord, and besides me there is no savior" Isaiah 43:10,11

(Jesus made all things)John 1:3; Colossians 1:16

-John 1:1- In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God... 1:14 - And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us,

John 5:17,18 - “My Father has been working until now, and I have been working.” Therefore the Jews sought to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also said that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God.

John 5:23- that all should honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.

John 8:24 - “Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I AM He, you will die in your sins.”

John 8:58 - Then Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM”

John 10:30-33 - Jesus answered them, "I and My Father are one" Then the Jews took up stones again to stone Him. Jesus answered them, “Many good works I have shown you from My Father. For which of those works do you stone Me?” The Jews answered Him, saying, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, and because you, being a man, make yourself God."

John 14:6,7- Jesus said to him, “I AM the way, the truth, and the Life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.”

John 14:9-11 - Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, 'Show us the Father'?”

John 20:28 - And Thomas answered and said to Him, "My Lord and my God!"

Philippians 2:5-7 - Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bond-servant, and coming in the likeness of men.

1 Timothy 3:16 - And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness:God was manifest in the flesh,Justified in the Spirit, Seen by angels, Preached among the Gentiles, Believed on in the world, Received up in glory.

Titus 2:13- looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ

Hebrews 1:8,9 - But to the Son He (God) says: “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom. You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You with the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”

2 John 1:7- For many deceivers have gone out into the world who do not confess Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

Revelation 1:8- “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End,” says the Lord, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”

Revelation 22:13- “I AM the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last.”...

22:16- “I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things in the churches.”

I am not going to tell you what you believe. It impolite to assume that I don't know my own faith. I respect all faiths accepting those which feel compelled to change the validity of anothers.

What you have just done is detrimental to your spiritual development. One needs to purge the self of Ego in order to achieve true knowledge.

[Catholic devotee of Christ]

 

Quote:

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""Bhaktajan, you need to upgrade your definition of Vaisnava.""

:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

<!-- / message -->Are you sure I haven't installed the latest updates?

Krishna says in the Gita 4.7:

"Whenever and wherever there is a decline in religious practice, --and a predominant rise of irreligion—at that time I descend Myself."

::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

Ergo, a burning bush; a profit; stone tablets; sacrificial lamb; a paramahansa; a boddhisattva; et al --all according to time and place as per the receptivity/cultural sophistication of the masses present.

--Is this speculation on my part [since Krsna is quoted as saying, 'I descend Myself']?<!-- sig -->

Thank you

[kaisersose]

 

I am not going to tell you what you believe. It impolite to assume that I don't know my own faith. I respect all faiths accepting those which feel compelled to change the validity of anothers.

 

What you have just done is detrimental to your spiritual development. One needs to purge the self of Ego in order to achieve true knowledge.

 

 

Well said with It impolite to assume that I don't know my own faith..

 

Some people here think they know Chrsitianity and Advaita better than followers of those traditions.

 

Arrogance is what I call it. Their barking on this forum is worth nothing.

 

Cheers

[theist]

Thank you and I am sure your intentions are good also. Many Christians believe as you do and many don't.

 

I am sorry to say your understanding has been tainted by the impersonalist school of thought which says God appears as a human being, does some act or gives some teaching and then that human expression merges back into Himself as God.

 

Jesus expressed His desire to His disciples that they would be one with the Father just as He was one with the Father.

 

So are you suggesting that those disciples and by extension yourself will one day become one with the Father as Jesus was and that oneness is to be God themselves?

 

This 100% against the teaching and example of Jesus and is very dangerous.

 

Sorry to be so blunt.

[bhaktajan]

Some people here think they know Christianity and [Hindu metaphysical analysis] better than followers of those who [speculate about bouncing/& recocheting molecules and pass it off as theology] traditions.

 

Arrogance is what I call it.

Their barking on this forum is worth nothing.

 

:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

It takes a barker to recognise a barker.

 

my boy Bill's carnival barker,

Bhaktajan

[theist]

 

bhaktajan: Jesus was not vaisnava --but he was sent by Visnu

 

Vaisnava means servant of Vishnu. So to say Jesus was sent by Vishnu to do service for Him and yet that person is not a Vaisnava makes no sense.

[theist]

 

I am not going to tellyou what you believe. It impolite to assume that I don't know my ownfaith. I respect all faiths accepting those which feel compelled tochange the validity of anothers.

I did not tell you what to believe so there is no need for you to get so defensive believe what you like but don't pretend to represent all Catholics or Christians. I know Catholics and protestants who believe that Jesus is the Son and not the Father and that is eternally so.

 

What you have just done is detrimental to your spiritual development.One needs to purge the self of Ego in order to achieve true knowledge.

 

Oh really?

[Catholic devotee of Christ]

 

Thank you and I am sure your intentions are good also. Many Christians believe as you do and many don't.

 

I am sorry to say your understanding has been tainted by the impersonalist school of thought which says God appears as a human being, does some act or gives some teaching and then that human expression merges back into Himself as God.

 

Jesus expression His deaire to His disciples that they would be one with the Father just as He was one with the Father.

 

So are you suggesting that those disciples and by extension yourself will one day become one with the Father as Jesus was and that oneness is to be God themselves?

 

This 100% against the teaching and example of Jesus and is very dangerous.

 

Sorry to be so blunt.

I have read through many of your posts by clicking on your avatar and looking for them. You are very knowledgeable as far as books are concerned. Perhaps you should try practicing the things you read about. Then you will be able to start making sense.

 

I think you are looking for attention and will argue with anybody just to have something to do. Turn off your computer and meditate.

 

Just a suggestion.

[Catholic devotee of Christ]

 

 

I did not tell you what to believe so there is no need for you to get so defensive believe what you like but don't pretend to represent all Catholics or Christians. I know Catholics and protestants who believe that Jesus is the Son and not the Father and that is eternally so.

 

 

 

Oh really?

 

yeah,...really...

[bhaktajan]

Well Jesus, is indeed, considered an AVATARA who came to teach lessons that where invaribly apropos to the epoch of his appearance.

 

The personalist/theist school of Hindu religious traditions define God as an Absolute entity endowed with the energetic source of all of the varigated creation and cosmos en toto and unlimitedly --yet still being an Absolute entity unto himself as transcendaent to his own self-born emanating variety of material & spiritual names, places and things throughout the cosmos including the very 'space' inwhich the cosmos inhabit.

 

IOW, God maintains his own 'personage' as the prototype [and also, his personage' is the "goal/mystery of life"] of all other forms of conscious living entities/beings.

 

The lessons of life lead one toward a beloved 'personage' until one learns the etiquette that qualifies oneself to be admitted entrance to his audience.

 

Birth after birth --lessons after lessons --until the notion that there is a 'Supreme Personality" known as the God head.

 

To know such a personality [ie: ones own 'father'] one must approach the mother and thus be told directly who ones own father is. Any other circumstance is proof of past misconduct that accrues the dis-advantage of having to seach out the 'truth' on one's own re-cognisance.

[bhaktajan]

RE: bhaktajan said, "Jesus was not vaisnava --but he was sent by Visnu"

 

theist Posted:

Vaisnava means servant of Vishnu. So to say Jesus was sent by Vishnu to do service --for Him and yet that person is not a Vaisnava makes no sense.

 

 

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Keep calm already why don't you!!

 

It's a play on words that is meant to be self-correcting [not self-denying].

 

Avatara's do Vishnu's work by spreading the 'dharma'.

 

Avatara are not famous for appearing to message Vishnu's feet.

 

They are known as leading ground forces into the heat of conquering samsara.

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BTW, maybe you haven't had a spoon full of spirolina today, yet.

You know if you put it in warm water--you'd have the best green tea available.

[Catholic devotee of Christ]

Some people here think they know Christianity and [Hindu metaphysical analysis] better than followers of those who [speculate about bouncing/& recocheting molecules and pass it off as theology] traditions.

 

Arrogance is what I call it.

Their barking on this forum is worth nothing.

 

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It takes a barker to recognise a barker.

 

my boy Bill's carnival barker,

Bhaktajan

 

Who let the dogs out?

[theist]

It has always pained me to see impersonalism so entrenched in Christianity. Not all by any means but by many. There is such a lack of jnana in the bible that when some want for deeper knowledge they end up getting some impersonalist teaching from their local metaphysical bookstore and then trying to incorporate that into Christianity.

 

 

I asked this question of the Catholic but received no answer.

 

Jesus expressed His desire to His disciples that they would be one with the Father just as He was one with the Father.

 

So are you suggesting that those disciples and by extension yourselfwill one day become one with the Father as Jesus was and that onenessis to be God themselves?

 

Maybe this time if he is through casting insults.

[Catholic devotee of Christ]

 

It has always pained me to see impersonalism so entrenched in Christianity. Not all by any means but by many. There is such a lack of jnana in the bible that when some want for deeper knowledge they end up getting some impersonalist teaching from their local metaphysical bookstore and then trying to incorporate that into Christianity.

 

 

I asked this question of the Catholic but received no answer.

 

 

Maybe this time if he is through casting insults.

Theist,

I cast no insults. I merely observe and state the facts. So, in this instance, my 'impersonalism' is justified.

 

To suggest that there is no 'jnana' in the Bible only reveals how little of it you truly understand. I'm not getting personal here. Merely making an observation.

 

Indeed we will become one with Christ and God the father. It is called 'The Bride of Christ'. I would refer you to 1st Corinthians chapter 12.

The imagery and symbolism of marriage is applied to Christ and the body of believers known as the church. These are those who have trusted in Jesus Christ as their personal savior and have received eternal life. In the New Testament, Christ, the Bridegroom, has sacrificially and lovingly chosen the church to be His bride (Ephesians 5:25-27). Just as there was a betrothal period in biblical times during which the bride and groom were separated until the wedding, so is the bride of Christ separate from her Bridegroom during the church age. Her responsibility during the betrothal period is to be faithful to Him (2 Corinthians 11:2; Ephesians 5:24). At the Second Coming of Christ, the church will be united with the Bridegroom, the official "wedding ceremony" will take place and, with it, the eternal union of Christ and His bride will be actualized (Revelation 19:7-9;21:1-2).

 

I would go on. But, it would prove to be a pedantic exercise, at best. For i do not believe you have any intention of listening.

 

I am sorry if this causes you to feel insulted. Perhaps your gunas are out of balance?

[theist]

From John 17

 

 

6"I have revealed you^[a] to those whom you gave me out of the world. They were yours; you gave them to me and they have obeyed your word.

 

7Now they know that everything you have given me comes from you.

 

8ForI gave them the words you gave me and they accepted them. They knew with certainty that I came from you, and they believed that you sentme.

 

9I pray for them. I am not praying for the world, but for those you have given me, for they are yours.

 

10All I have is yours, and all you have is mine. And glory has come to me through them.

 

11Iwill remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world,and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of yourname—the name you gave me—so that they may be one as we are one.

 

12WhileI was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by that name yougave me. None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction sothat Scripture would be fulfilled.

 

13"Iam coming to you now, but I say these things while I am still in theworld, so that they may have the full measure of my joy within them.

 

14I have given them your word and the world has hated them, for they are not of the world any more than I am of the world.

 

15My prayer is not that you take them out of the world but that you protect them from the evil one.

 

16They are not of the world, even as I am not of it.

 

17Sanctify^[b] them by the truth; your word is truth.

 

18As you sent me into the world, I have sent them into the world.

 

19For them I sanctify myself, that they too may be truly sanctified.

 

It is clear to see that Jesus is talking in terms of plural relationships between himself and the Supreme Lord as well as his disciples.

 

Verse 11 clearly indicates that Jesus wants his disciples to be one with God just as he is one with God.

 

From the impersonalist viewpoint that means merging into an impersonal oneness.

 

For the personalist oneness means one in loving relationship.