vishnu not krishna is source of all avatars.

[sambya]

isnt it ridiculuous that the gaudiya vaishnav claim krishna to be source of all instead of accepting vishnu in that role.it is a genuine deviation from the traditional vaishnav teachings.its evident from the term 'vaishnava' that it was vishnu who was thought to be the source in ancient times only to be replaced by krishna later.if krishna had been the source since the begining why did they didnt call themselves krishnavs instead ??

[kaisersose]

As they believe Krishna is the source of everything, if there is a Vishnu, Krishna would be the source of this Vishnu too, QED.

 

Gaudiya Vaishnavism has Krishna, Radha and Goloka as its core beliefs. So far so good; the problem comes when they tried to tie in their belief system with traditional Vaishnavism which introduces the Vedas, Mahabharata and the Puranas. Since their beliefs are not to be found in these texts, they enter an inconsistent mode.

 

I think it was necessary for them to be part of mainstream Vaishnavism at some point for political reasons and to improve crediblity. But that has opened a whole other series of problems.

 

In my opinion, it would be simpler and cleaner if they disoociated themselves from the Vedas, use the the Mahabharata and the Bhagavatam as sources of knowledge of Krishna and honestly admit that Radha and Goloka come from a completely different source (Brahma Samhita, etc). Different does not necessarily mean bogus. But as long as they try to hold on to both, they will have a hard time convincing others and sometimes themselves.

 

If they take this approach, they no longer have to answer questions about,

 

1. Listing of Krishna as an avatar of Vishnu is every avatar list. But never the reverse (not even once).

2. Absence of Krishna in the Vedas and the clear presence of Vishnu in the Vedas.

3. Absense of Radha in scripture

4. Absence of Goloka in scripture

5. Absence of the "we do not care for Moksha" concept in scripture

 

By scripture, I mean mainstream scriptures common to all Vaishnavas.

 

Cheers

[Laulyam]

TEXT 65advaya-jnana tattva-vastu krsnera svarupabrahma, atma, bhagavan----tina tanra rupaSYNONYMSadvaya-jnana--knowledge without duality; tattva-vastu--the Absolute Truth; krsnera--of Lord Krsna; sva-rupa--own nature; brahma--Brahman; atma--Paramatma; bhagavan--the Supreme Personality of Godhead; tina--three; tanra--of Him; rupa--forms.TRANSLATIONLord Krsna Himself is the one undivided Absolute Truth, the ultimate reality. He manifests Himself in three features--as Brahman, Paramatma and Bhagavan.PURPORTIn the verse from Srimad-Bhagavatam cited above (Bhag. 1.2.11), the principal word, bhagavan, indicates the Personality of Godhead, and Brahman and Paramatma are concomitants deduced from the Absolute Personality, as a government and its ministers are deductions from the supreme executive head. In other words, the principal truth is exhibited in three different phases. The Absolute Truth, the Personality of Godhead Sri Krsna (Bhagavan), is also known as Brahman and Paramatma, although all these features are identical.--TEXT 66ei slokera arthe tumi haila nirvacanaara eka suna bhagavatera vacanaSYNONYMSei--this; slokera--of the verse; arthe--by the meaning; tumi--you; haila--have become; nirvacana--speechless; ara--other; eka--one; suna--please hear; bhagavatera--of Srimad-Bhagavatam; vacana--speech.TRANSLATIONThe import of this verse has stopped you from arguing. Now listen to another verse of Srimad-Bhagavatam.--TEXT 67ete camsa-kalah pumsahkrsnas tu bhagavan svayamindrari-vyakulam lokammrdayanti yuge yugeSYNONYMSete--these; ca--and; amsa--plenary portions; kalah--parts of plenary portions; pumsah--of the purusa-avataras; krsnah--Lord Krsna; tu--but; bhagavan--the Supreme Personality of Godhead; svayam--Himself; indra-ari--the enemies of Lord Indra; vyakulam--full of; lokam--the world; mrdayanti--make happy; yuge yuge--at the right time in each age.TRANSLATION"All these incarnations of Godhead are either plenary portions or parts of the plenary portions of the purusa-avataras. But Krsna is the Supreme Personality of Godhead Himself. In every age He protects the world through His different features when the world is disturbed by the enemies of Indra."PURPORTThis statement of Srimad-Bhagavatam (1.3.28) definitely negates the concept that Sri Krsna is an avatara of Visnu or Narayana. Lord Sri Krsna is the original Personality of Godhead, the supreme cause of all causes. This verse clearly indicates that incarnations of the Personality of Godhead such as Sri Rama, Nrsimha and Varaha all undoubtedly belong to the Visnu group, but all of Them are either plenary portions or portions of plenary portions of the original Personality of Godhead, Lord Sri Krsna.--TEXT 68saba avatarera kari samanya-laksanatara madhye krsna-candrera karila gananaSYNONYMSsaba--all; avatarera--of the incarnations; kari--making; samanya--general; laksana--symptoms; tara--of them; madhye--in the middle; krsna-candrera--of Lord Sri Krsna; karila--did; ganana--counting.TRANSLATIONThe Bhagavatam describes the symptoms and deeds of the incarnations in general and counts Sri Krsna among them.--TEXT 69tabe suta gosani mane pana bada bhayayara ye laksana taha karila niscayaSYNONYMStabe--then; suta gosani--Suta Gosvami; mane--in the mind; pana--obtaining; bada--great; bhaya--fear; yara--of whom; ye--which; laksana--symptoms; taha--that; karila--he made; niscaya--certainly.TRANSLATIONThis made Suta Gosvami greatly apprehensive. Therefore he distinguished each incarnation by its specific symptoms.--TEXT 70avatara saba----purusera kala, amsasvayam-bhagavan krsna sarva-avatamsaSYNONYMSavatara--the incarnations; saba--all; purusera--of the purusa-avataras; kala--parts of plenary portions; amsa--plenary portions; svayam--Himself; bhagavan--the Supreme Personality of Godhead; krsna--Lord Krsna; sarva--of all; avatamsa--crest.TRANSLATIONAll the incarnations of Godhead are plenary portions or parts of the plenary portions of the purusa-avataras, but the primeval Lord is Sri Krsna. He is the Supreme Personality of Godhead, the fountainhead of all incarnations.--TEXT 71purva-paksa kahe----tomara bhala ta' vyakhyanaparavyoma-narayana svayam-bhagavanSYNONYMSpurva-paksa--opposing side; kahe--says; tomara--your; bhala--nice; ta'--certainly; vyakhyana--exposition; para-vyoma--situated in the spiritual sky; narayana--Lord Narayana; svayam--Himself; bhagavan--the Supreme Personality of Godhead.TRANSLATIONAn opponent may say, "This is your interpretation, but actually the Supreme Lord is Narayana, who is in the transcendental realm.TEXT 72tenha asi' krsna-rupe karena avataraei artha sloke dekhi ki ara vicaraSYNONYMStenha--He (Narayana); asi'--coming; krsna-rupe--in the form of Lord Krsna; karena--makes; avatara--incarnation; ei--this; artha--meaning; sloke--in the verse; dekhi--I see; ki--what; ara--other; vicara--consideration.TRANSLATION"He [Narayana] incarnates as Lord Krsna. This is the meaning of the verse as I see it. There is no need for further consideration."--TEXT 73tare kahe----kene kara kutarkanumanasastra-viruddhartha kabhu na haya pramanaSYNONYMStare--to him; kahe--one says; kene--why; kara--you make; ku-tarka--of a fallacious argument; anumana--conjecture; sastra-viruddha--contrary to scripture; artha--a meaning; kabhu--at any time; na--not; haya--is; pramana--evidence.TRANSLATIONTo such a misguided interpreter we may reply, "Why should you suggest such fallacious logic? An interpretation is never accepted as evidence if it opposes the principles of scripture."--TEXT 74anuvadam anuktva tuna vidheyam udirayetna hy alabdhaspadam kincitkutracit pratitisthatiSYNONYMSanuvadam--the subject; anuktva--not stating; tu--but; na--not; vidheyam--the predicate; udirayet--one should speak; na--not; hi--certainly; alabdha-aspadam--without a secure position; kincit--something; kutracit--anywhere; pratitisthati--stands.TRANSLATION" 'One should not state a predicate before its subject, for it cannot thus stand without proper support.' "PURPORTThis rhetorical rule appears in the Ekadasi-tattva, Thirteenth Canto, in connection with the metaphorical use of words. An unknown object should not be put before the known subject because the object has no meaning if the subject is not first given.--TEXT 75anuvada na kahiya na kahi vidheyaage anuvada kahi, pascad vidheyaSYNONYMSanuvada--the subject; na kahiya--not saying; na--not; kahi--I say; vidheya--the predicate; age--first; anuvada--the subject; kahi--I say; pascat--afterwards; vidheya--the predicate.TRANSLATION"If I do not state a subject, I do not state a predicate. First I speak the former and then I speak the latter."--TEXT 76'vidheya' kahiye tare, ye vastu ajnata'anuvada' kahi tare, yei haya jnataSYNONYMSvidheya--the predicate; kahiye--I say; tare--to him; ye--that; vastu--thing; ajnata--unknown; anuvada--the subject; kahi--I say; tare--to him; yei--that which; haya--is; jnata--known.TRANSLATION"The predicate of a sentence is what is unknown to the reader, whereas the subject is what is known to him."--TEXT 77yaiche kahi,----ei vipra parama panditavipra----anuvada, ihara vidheya----pandityaSYNONYMSyaiche--just as; kahi--I say; ei--this; vipra--brahmana; parama--great; pandita--learned man; vipra--the brahmana; anuvada--subject; ihara--of this; vidheya--predicate; panditya--erudition.TRANSLATION"For example, we may say: 'This vipra is a greatly learned man.' In this sentence, the vipra is the subject, and the predicate is his erudition."--TEXT 78vipratva vikhyata tara panditya ajnataataeva vipra age, panditya pascataSYNONYMSvipratva--the quality of being a vipra; vikhyata--well known; tara--his; panditya--erudition; ajnata--unknown; ataeva--therefore; vipra--the word vipra; age--first; panditya--erudition; pascata--afterwards.TRANSLATION"The man's being a vipra is known, but his erudition is unknown. Therefore the person is identified first and his erudition later."--TEXT 79taiche inha avatara saba haila jnatakara avatara?----ei vastu avijnataSYNONYMStaiche--in the same way; inha--these; avatara--incarnations; saba--all; haila--were; jnata--known; kara--whose; avatara--incarnations; ei--this; vastu--thing; avijnata--unknown.TRANSLATION"In the same way, all these incarnations were known, but whose incarnations they are was unknown."--TEXT 80'ete'-sabde avatarera age anuvada'purusera amsa' pache vidheya-samvadaSYNONYMSete-sabde--in the word ete (these); avatarera--of the incarnations; age--first; anuvada--the subject; purusera--of the purusa-avataras; amsa--plenary portions; pache--afterwards; vidheya--of the predicate; samvada--message.TRANSLATION"First the word, 'ete' ['these'], establishes the subject [the incarnations]. Then 'plenary portions of the purusa-avataras' follows as the predicate."--TEXT 81taiche krsna avatara-bhitare haila jnatatanhara visesa-jnana sei avijnataSYNONYMStaiche--in the same way; krsna--Lord Krsna; avatara-bhitare--among the incarnations; haila--was; jnata--known; tanhara--of Him; visesa-jnana--specific knowledge; sei--that; avijnata--unknown.TRANSLATION"In the same way, when Krsna was first counted among the incarnations, specific knowledge about Him was still unknown."--TEXT 82ataeva 'krsna'-sabda age anuvada'svayam-bhagavatta' piche vidheya-samvadaSYNONYMSataeva--therefore; krsna-sabda--the word krsna; age--first; anuvada--the subject; svayam-bhagavatta--being Himself the Supreme Personality of Godhead; piche--afterwards; vidheya--of the predicate; samvada--the messageTRANSLATION"Therefore first the word 'krsna' appears as the subject, followed by the predicate, describing Him as the original Personality of Godhead."--TEXT 83krsnera svayam-bhagavatta----iha haila sadhyasvayam-bhagavanera krsnatva haila badhyaSYNONYMSkrsnera--of Lord Krsna; svayam-bhagavatta--the quality of being Himself the Supreme Personality of Godhead; iha--this; haila--was; sadhya--to be established; svayam-bhagavanera--of the Supreme Personality of Godhead; krsnatva--the quality of being Lord Krsna; haila--was; badhya--obligatoryTRANSLATION"This establishes that Sri Krsna is the original Personality of Godhead. The original Personality of Godhead is therefore necessarily Krsna."--TEXT 84krsna yadi amsa haita, amsi narayanatabe viparita haita sutera vacanaSYNONYMSkrsna--Lord Krsna; yadi--if; amsa--plenary portion; haita--were; amsi--the source of all expansions; narayana--Lord Narayana; tabe--then; viparita--the reverse; haita--would have been; sutera--of Suta Gosvami; vacana--the statement.TRANSLATION"Had Krsna been the plenary portion and Narayana the primeval Lord, the statement of Suta Gosvami would have been reversed."--TEXT 85narayana amsi yei svayam-bhagavantenha sri-krsna----aiche karita vyakhyanaSYNONYMSnarayana--Lord Narayana; amsi--the source of all incarnations; yei--who; svayam-bhagavan--Himself the Supreme Personality of Godhead; tenha--He; sri-krsna--Lord Krsna; aiche--in such away; karita--would have made; vyakhyana--explanation.TRANSLATION"Thus he would have said: 'Narayana, the source of all incarnations, is the original Personality of Godhead. He has appeared as Sri Krsna.' "--TEXT 86bhrama, pramada, vipralipsa, karanapatavaarsa-vijna-vakye nahi dosa ei sabaSYNONYMSbhrama--mistakes; pramada--illusion; vipralipsa--cheating; karana-apatava--imperfectness of the senses; arsa--of the authoritative sages; vijna-vakye--in the wise speech; nahi--not; dosa--faults; ei--these; saba--all.TRANSLATION"Mistakes, illusions, cheating and defective perception do not occur in the sayings of the authoritative sages."PURPORTSrimad-Bhagavatam has listed the avataras, the plenary expansions of the purusa, and Lord Krsna appears among them. But the Bhagavatam further explains Lord Krsna's specific position as the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Since Lord Krsna is the original Personality of Godhead, reason and argument establish that His position is always supreme.Had Krsna been a plenary expansion of Narayana, the original verse would have been differently composed; indeed, its order would have been reversed. But there cannot be mistakes, illusion, cheating or imperfect perception in the words of liberated sages. Therefore there is no mistake in this statement that Lord Krsna is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. The Sanskrit statements of Srimad-Bhagavatam are all transcendental sounds. Srila Vyasadeva revealed these statements after perfect realization, and therefore they are perfect, for liberated sages like Vyasadeva never commit errors in their rhetorical arrangements. Unless one accepts this fact, there is no use in trying to obtain help from the revealed scriptures.Bhrama refers to false knowledge or mistakes, such as accepting a rope as a snake or an oyster shell as gold. Pramada refers to inattention or misunderstanding of reality, and vipralipsa is the cheating propensity. Karanapatava refers to imperfectness of the material senses. There are many examples of such imperfection. The eyes cannot see that which is very distant or very small. One cannot even see his own eyelid, which is the closest thing to his eye, and if one is disturbed by a disease like jaundice, he sees everything to be yellow. Similarly, the ears cannot hear distant sounds. Since the Personality of Godhead and His plenary portions and self-realized devotees are all transcendentally situated, they cannot be misled by such deficiencies.--TEXT 87viruddhartha kaha tumi, kahite kara rosatomara arthe avimrsta-vidheyamsa-dosaSYNONYMSviruddha-artha--contrary meaning; kaha--say; tumi--you; kahite--pointing out; kara--you do; rosa--anger; tomara--your; arthe--in the meaning; avimrsta-vidheya-amsa--of the unconsidered predicate portion; dosa--the fault.TRANSLATION"You say something contradictory and become angry when this is pointed out. Your explanation has the defect of a misplaced object. This is an unconsidered adjustment."--TEXT 88yanra bhagavatta haite anyera bhagavatta'svayam-bhagavan'-sabdera tahatei sattaSYNONYMSyanra--of whom; bhagavatta--the quality of being the Supreme Personality of Godhead; haite--from; anyera--of others; bhagavatta--the quality of being the Supreme Personality of Godhead; svayam-bhagavan-sabdera--of the word svayam-bhagavan; tahatei--in that; satta--the presence.TRANSLATION"Only the Personality of Godhead, the source of all other Divinities, is eligible to be designated svayam bhagavan, or the primeval Lord."--TEXT 89dipa haite yaiche bahu dipera jvalanamula eka dipa taha kariye gananaSYNONYMSdipa--a lamp; haite--from; yaiche--just as; bahu--many; dipera--of lamps; jvalana--lighting; mula--the original; eka--one; dipa--lamp; taha--that; kariye--I make; ganana--considerationTRANSLATION"When from one candle many others are lit, I consider that one the original."PURPORTThe Brahma-samhita, Chapter Five, verse 46, states that the visnu-tattva, or the principle of the Absolute Personality of Godhead, is like a lamp because the expansions equal their origin in all respects. A burning lamp can light innumerable other lamps that are not inferior, but still one lamp must be considered the original. Similarly, the Supreme Personality of Godhead expands Himself in the plenary forms of the visnu-tattva, but although they are equally powerful, the original powerful Personality of Godhead is considered the source. This example also explains the appearance of qualitative incarnations like Lord Siva and Lord Brahma--According to Srila Jiva Gosvami, sambhos tu tamo-'dhisthanatvat kajjalamaya-suksma-dipa-sikha-sthaniyasya na tatha samyam: "The sambhu-tattva, or the principle of Lord Siva, is like a lamp covered with carbon because of his being in charge of the mode of ignorance. The illumination from such a lamp is very minute. Therefore the power of Lord Siva cannot compare to that of the Visnu principle."--TEXT 90taiche saba avatarera krsna se karanaara eka sloka suna, kuvyakhya-khandanaSYNONYMStaiche--in a similar way; saba--all; avatarera--of the incarnations; krsna--Lord Krsna; se--He; karana--the cause; ara--another; eka--one; sloka--verse; suna--please hear; ku-vyakhya--fallacious explanations; khandana--refuting.TRANSLATION"Krsna, in the same way, is the cause of all causes and all incarnations. Please hear another verse to defeat all misinterpretations."--TEXTS 91-92atra sargo visargas casthanam posanam utayahmanvantaresanukathanirodho muktir asrayahdasamasya visuddhy-arthamnavanam iha laksanamvarnayanti mahatmanahsrutenarthena canjasaSYNONYMSatra--in Srimad-Bhagavatam; sargah--the creation of the ingredients of the universe; visargah--the creations of Brahma; ca--and; sthanam--the maintenance of the creation; posanam--the favoring of the Lord's devotees; utayah--impetuses for activity; manu-antara--prescribed duties given by the Manus; isa-anukathah--a description of the incarnations of the Lord; nirodhah--the winding up of creation; muktih--liberation; asrayah--the ultimate shelter, the Supreme Personality of Godhead; dasamasya--of the tenth (the asraya); visuddhi-artham--for the purpose of perfect knowledge; navanam--of the nine; iha--here; laksanam--the nature; varnayanti--describe; maha-atmanah--the great souls; srutena--by prayer; arthena--by explanation; ca--and; anjasa--direct.TRANSLATION" 'Here [in Srimad-Bhagavatam] ten subjects are described: (1) the creation of the ingredients of the cosmos, (2) the creations of Brahma, (3) the maintenance of the creation, (4) special favor given to the faithful, (5) impetuses for activity, (6) prescribed duties for law-abiding men, (7) a description of the incarnations of the Lord, (8) the winding up of the creation, (9) liberation from gross and subtle material existence, and (10) the ultimate shelter, the Supreme Personality of Godhead. The tenth item is the shelter of all the others. To distinguish this ultimate shelter from the other nine subjects, the mahajanas have described these nine, directly or indirectly, through prayers or direct explanations.' "PURPORTThese verses from Srimad-Bhagavatam (2.10.1-2) list the ten subject matters dealt with in the text of the Bhagavatam. Of these, the tenth is the substance, and the other nine are categories derived from the substance. These ten subjects are listed as follows:(1) Sarga--the first creation by Visnu, the bringing forth of the five gross material elements, the five objects of sense perception, the ten senses, the mind, the intelligence, the false ego and the total material energy, or universal form.(2) Visarga--the secondary creation, or the work of Brahma in producing the moving and unmoving bodies in the universe (brahmanda).(3) Sthana--the maintenance of the universe by the Personality of Godhead, Visnu. Visnu's function is more important and His glory greater than Brahma's and Lord Siva's, for although Brahma is the creator and Lord Siva the destroyer, Visnu is the maintainer.(4) Posana--special care and protection for devotees by the Lord. As a king maintains his kingdom and subjects but nevertheless gives special attention to the members of his family, so the Personality of Godhead gives special care to His devotees who are souls completely surrendered to Him.(5) Uti--the urge for creation, or initiative power, that is the cause of all inventions, according to the necessities of time, space and objects.(6) Manvantara--the regulative principles for living beings who desire to achieve perfection in human life. The rules of Manu, as described in the Manu-samhita, guide the way to such perfection.(7) Isanukatha: scriptural information regarding the Personality of Godhead, His incarnations on earth and the activities of His devotees. Scriptures dealing with these subjects are essential for progressive human life.(8) Nirodha: the winding up of all energies employed in creation. Such potencies are emanations from the Personality of Godhead who eternally lies in the Karana Ocean. The cosmic creations, manifested with His breath, are again dissolved in due course.(9) Mukti: liberation of the conditioned souls encaged by the gross and subtle coverings of body and mind. When freed from all material affection, the soul, giving up the gross and subtle material bodies, can attain the spiritual sky in his original spiritual body and engage in transcendental loving service to the Lord in Vaikunthaloka or Krsnaloka. When the soul is situated in his original constitutional position of existence, he is said to be liberated. It is possible to engage in transcendental loving service to the Lord and become jivan-mukta, a liberated soul, even while in the material body.(10) Asraya: the Transcendence, the summum bonum, from whom everything emanates, upon whom everything rests and in whom everything merges after annihilation. He is the source and support of all. The asraya is also called the Supreme Brahman, as in the Vedanta-sutra (athato brahma-jijnasa, janmady asya yatah). Srimad-Bhagavatam especially describes this Supreme Brahman as the asraya. Sri Krsna is this asraya, and therefore the greatest necessity of life is to study the science of Krsna.Srimad-Bhagavatam accepts Sri Krsna as the shelter of all manifestations because Lord Krsna, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, is the ultimate source of everything, the supreme goal of all.Two different principles are to be considered herein--namely asraya, the object providing shelter, and asrita, the dependents requiring shelter. The asrita exist under the original principle, the asraya. The first nine categories, described in the first nine cantos of Srimad-Bhagavatam, from creation to liberation--including the purusa-avataras; the incarnations; the marginal energy, or living entities; and the external energy, or material world--are all asrita. The prayers of Srimad-Bhagavatam, however, aim for the asraya-tattva, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Sri Krsna. The great souls expert in describing Srimad-Bhagavatam have very diligently delineated the other nine categories, sometimes by direct narrations and sometimes by indirect narrations such as stories. The real purpose of doing this is to know perfectly the Absolute Transcendence, Sri Krsna, for the entire creation, both material and spiritual, rests on the body of Sri Krsna.

[Svarupa]

Krsna is and always has been the Supreme Personality of Godhead and from Him emanates ALL other Vishnu forms

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Below is Maha Vishnu who creates the material creation or mahat-tattva

 

 

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[sambya]

hmmm !!!! so what if a ramanuja devotee comes up and say the opposite ? would you fight? and why then you dont use the name krishnavs? also why is narayan or vishnu(in form of shalagram) needed on every puja of hindu patheon instead of krishna? ever thought of that ?

[Svarupa]

HARE KRISHNA Sambya

 

First of all it is important for you to understand that Krishna is the cause of all the Vishnu avtars. He has confirmed in the Bhagavad-Gita that there is no truth superior to him.

 

This means that He does not have a origin and is the Absolute Truth. All the three Vishnu incarnations; Maha-Vishnu, Garbhodaksayi Vishnu and Ksirodaksayi Vishnu come from Krishna.

 

Even the Narayana expansion etc all of them also come from Krishna. In other words they are the same as Krishna but yet their origin is from Krishna.

 

When you are a devotee of Krishna and offer obeisance to Krishna then you have already worshiped all the incarnations as Krishna is the origin of all the avtars. The Srimad Bhagavatam states all the pastimes of the incarnations of Krishna.

 

The book also talks about Lord Buddha whom the Buddhists worship. It also talks about the Jain God Lord Rishabhdeva which is mentioned in Canto 5 Chapter 6.

 

All these are mentioned as the incarnations of Krishna.

Devotees of Krishna derive transcendental pleasure, not only by reading His pastimes but also by reading the pastimes of all his incarnations such as Lord Buddha and Lord Rishabhdeva in the Srimad Bhagavatam.

 

It is also important to note that Krishna has said, whatever we think at the time of death we will achieve. If we are fortunate enough to think of Krishna at the time of death then we are transferred to Krishna’s planet Goloka Vrindavan to live eternally with Krishna.

 

If we think of Krishna’s other incarnations such as Narayan, then we are transferred to the planet where Narayan lives.

 

Similarly all different incarnations live in different spiritual planets of which the chief is Goloka Vrindavan, where exchange of love is the highest.

 

Due to this reason devotees of Krishna think of Krishna 24 hours so that they can also think of Him at the time of death and go back home to be in the eternal association of their father, Krishna.

[srikanthdk71]

All the best ISKCONites. You can go to any extent. Your bible is 'AS IT IS' book by the most profound Acharya who was greater than VedVyas. But anywhere in Mahabharat I have not come across any person other than Krishna,Arjuna and Sanjaya who knew Bhagavad Gita as it is. But you ppl have indeed found the 4th person who knew Bhagavad Gita 'As it Is'. Bhesh....

[kaisersose]

 

HARE KRISHNA Sambya

 

First of all it is important for you to understand that Krishna is the cause of all the Vishnu avtars. He has confirmed in the Bhagavad-Gita that there is no truth superior to him.

 

The second statement is correct, yes. But how is the first statement to be understood (or accepted) by anyone, when no evidence is presented?

 

There is also a simple common sense approach that all accepted scriptures have to assert such a claim in unison. In this case, the Veda, the Mahabharata and all the nice (Vaishnava) Puranas should say the same thing - that Vishnu came from Krishna.

 

But that is not the case. Not *one* of them say what you claim. Rather it is very clear that Vishnu is the root of all avatars including the Krishna avatar. Vishnu is not an avatar at all, for he was never born on earth as Vishnu for a specific cause, unlike Krishna. All avatar lists of Vishnu say Krishna was one of his avatars while there exist no avatar lists for Krishna.

 

My point is, if you think somehow the Gita and a single verse from the Bhagavatam (interpeted in isolation, out of context) is sufficient to prove your case, then it should be clear that it is not. There is no common evidence among Vaishnava groups for the Krishna origin concept. But there is plenty of evidence for the Vishnu origin concept.

 

As I said earlier, stop pretending that it is some foregone conclusion that applies to all Vaishnavas. The Krishna origin story is specific to Gaudiya Vaishnavas and they should stop pretending that they have evidence acceptable to non-Gaudiyas. Thy don't. This does not mean it is incorrect, but it should be clear that the source of this story is not from mainstream literature, but from Gaudiya-specific literature.

 

Cheers

[stonehearted]

It is the Gaudiya vaishnava perspective that, based on our understanding of Srimad-Bhagavatam 1.3.28 (ete camsa-kalah pumsah krsnas tu bhagavan svayam), under the guidance of the six gosvamis of Vrindavan and Srila Krishna das Kaviraja, as well as of the fifth chapter of Brahma-samhita, that Krishna is the source of all, including Narayana in Vaikuntha and the Vishus. Other lines don't accept that. Since they are not under the shelter of our acharyas, it makes little sense for us to argue the point in most cases. They're just not going to buy it. Of course there may be someone who feels he or she can argue the point so expertly that they can "convert" a Sri Vaishnava to our line. Unfortunately, such overconfidence is very rarely warranted. It just ends up in pointless wrangling.

[DharmaRaja88]

In the veda's and vedantas, it has said that above all devi's, deva's, half gods etc. there is the supreme source, Brahman (don't know if i spelled it right). If you understand the gayatri Mantra (Rig Veda if i am correct), he is the one to worship. From the unpersonal god - Brahman- the source, came everything.

 

Krishna stated in the Gita, that he is the personal form of Brahman. Yogi's meditate on Brahman, but the road is hard, devotion to the personal is easier.

 

^ from that knowledge you can assume he is above the trinity, thus above Vishnu. The ones who states he is Vishnu are clearly after the death of Krishna and thus you can 'assume' its the work of Kali Yuga. The latter are of course assumptions, but this does make sense why later scriptures tried to convert Krishna in to an avatar of Vishnu (Also why suddenly such a beloved mystic like Kabir was 'made from a rose by Vishnu - utterly Bias and doctrine'). Also Vishnu, Shiva and Brahma (The trinity), are all one (Aum) which is an manifestation of the source - Brahman (Krishna).

 

I hope i made some sense, this still does not apply to mainstream scources, BUT mainstream has never been the way on the spiritual path - you better avoid it and seek the truth out for yourself.

 

Thank you and Blessings to all!