Faith & Disbelief In God

[mukund]

I have been in a very clogged state of mind with the thoughts fluctating form totall faith to doubt in the exiestence of god. There is a simultenous thought going on in the mind, "GOD IS A CREATION OF HUMAN MIND" and also " GOD EXISTS AND IS THE SUPREME CONTROLLER".

I am an absolute layman and have not read any religious texts, but such contradictory thoughts have been clogging my mind for some time now. Can some one help me understand this state of mind and the reality.

[skdas3739@yahoo.co.in]

 

I have been in a very clogged state of mind with the thoughts fluctating form totall faith to doubt in the exiestence of god. There is a simultenous thought going on in the mind, "GOD IS A CREATION OF HUMAN MIND" and also " GOD EXISTS AND IS THE SUPREME CONTROLLER".

I am an absolute layman and have not read any religious texts, but such contradictory thoughts have been clogging my mind for some time now. Can some one help me understand this state of mind and the reality.

 

Dear Mr. Mukund

 

When such thought comes, it is very difficult to send you any readymade answer. Plz. let me know whether you believe that you are a creation and whether it is unique or not. Pls. do not reply immediately. Go into minute details of your own body and see how uniquely it is designed. Or else you can go to any other creation in nature. I think I can surely convince you.

 

With regards

 

S.K.Das

[mukund]

yes for sure i believe nature is a creation, but was this a biological self creation or god created it. If god created me then what for?

[theist]

Truthfully mukund, no one here is perfect in their faith or realizations of God. Various doubts haunt us all. But here is the hopeful thing...we can still make tangible progress along the spiritual path anyway.

 

The bright side is at times you have faith. Somehow we sense the presence of God even though intellectually doubts may persist. So the glass is half full instead of half empty. We can see it this way and instead of wrestling with each and every doubt we can strengthen the half full side and allow God to reveal Himself. Then doubts will diminish on their own just like darkness dissipates more and more with the rising of the morning sun.

 

Ask the Lord in your heart to give you knowledge of Himself and free you from all doubts. That is what Arjuna did and he became satisfied.

 

SK das has brought in intelligent design. I think this is the best argument for the existence of God. Please consider his points thoughtfully.

[bhaktajan]

Do your work and be satisfied with your own duties.

 

You are a spirit in a material body.

 

There are 8,400,000 species of bodies--your soul is in 1 of those species [as a male or female].

 

All species of living creatures do the same 4 activities:

eat,

sleep,

mate,

defend.

 

All species of living creatures endure 6 changes:

Birth,

growth,

endure,

reproduce,

dwindle,

die.

 

Time exists in in the material cosmos only.

 

Fear is born of the knowledge.

 

Fearlessness is born of detachment from all material concepts.

 

If God exists--then he is the provider of the means to know him--this requires mature ettiquette.

 

God's business is complete --our business is to do our work while seeing the variety of God's presence in all things that we may desire aspire to.

 

Reconciling our position in the world begins with performing our own duties for the bette good of others--it is in others that we see the means to practice godly ettiquette.

 

Intelligence is above the fickleness of the mind--so use intelligence to guard the mind.

 

Doubts that cloud judgement are resolved by intelligent & deliberate investigation.

 

Investigate your doubts to its conclusion.

 

Since the material world is temporary & changing & non-eternal --the laws of duality confound (and/or supplement) lifes complexities.

 

The constituent building blocks of Duality equates to irony --this is found in physics and many natural laws and interpersonal relationships too ['for every action there is an equal and opposite re-action'].

 

For example:

Learn well in school--only to live a life of unending Resposibilites.

We become a landowner --only to be liable for higher taxes.

We escape third world poverty --to be servants of wealthy people and nanny's to their children.

We must be encouraged to be good students 'for our own good'--so we can later offer selfless works for the benefit of others [actually, nonetheless this will still afford future 'good-Karma-reaction' for our troubles]

 

Work = Karma.

Appropriate Work = Karma that is desirable.

In-appropriate Work = Karma that is not desirable.

 

In all cases our own work must be enlivening to all.

 

Even a butterfly's wings stir the air and contribute to the satifactory workings of the great world outside our preview.

 

"Ask and you will receive" --in the mean time perform your duties selflessly.

[kaisersose]

 

I have been in a very clogged state of mind with the thoughts fluctating form totall faith to doubt in the exiestence of god. There is a simultenous thought going on in the mind, "GOD IS A CREATION OF HUMAN MIND" and also " GOD EXISTS AND IS THE SUPREME CONTROLLER".

I am an absolute layman and have not read any religious texts, but such contradictory thoughts have been clogging my mind for some time now. Can some one help me understand this state of mind and the reality.

 

What kind of evidence or answer will convince you (either way)? Can you answer that?

 

For most atheists, theists and agnosts, no proof exists than can convince them to change their view.

 

Cheers

[Amlesh]

 

What kind of evidence or answer will convince you (either way)? Can you answer that?

 

For most atheists, theists and agnosts, no proof exists than can convince them to change their view.

 

Cheers

True.

 

Depending on the degree/level of consciousness, one chooses his faith.

 

That will come automatically, there is nothing to force into because as there is nothing as natural as that.

[mukund]

It is not that i seek an evidence to ascertain the existence of god, the question is why is there an conflict of faith and logic within us. My faith says god exists, but the logic say god is invented by humans.

I dont know if any one would believe me if i say i had a an encounter with god in the form a small child, hence there are moments of total faith and at the same time the mind questions the identity of god. It says god is creation just to keep a check on the moral conscience of all as we generally tend to accept things beyond our intellectual diagnosis.

What happens to one who leads a moral and just life but is a non believer in god? He is not striving for salvation but believes in living a just life. Something similar to Buddha, who refutes the existence of god but preaches a healthy and just way of life.

[bhaktajan]

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Some times I try to remember the notion, at any given moment while journeying in public:

'maybe that stranger is God, or a saint visiting and passing by . . . never to be seen again'.

 

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Good Karma accrues opulent life--this is a good thing.

 

The Irony is that one can become lazy and insolent regarding theirown alloted duties.

 

The added irony is that, after too much time in comfortable numb conditioning-- one forgets the total picture and how one's own part is tiny and dependent upon the grace of the whole --thus the small player of the game may be caught-up dictating commands that must be experienced themselves so as to reconcile, "Over the laong road, What are good actions, versus, What are detrimental actions". This question is burnt into & carry forward by the souls' memory from birth to birth till salvation ends it.

 

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'Art reflects Life, And Life reflects art.'

Life provides lessons, omens, crying babies, test exam replete with commensurate scores (sometimes score on a curve to compensate for underacheiving school-mates)--all in order to teach lessons that transcend mundane temporary momentary whimsical concerns.

 

An artist may become wealthy because they express their sentiments--thus forming spheres of influence. Art is exists in a latent/dormant state until the 'artisan' chips away the excess elements to reveal esthetically pleasing art. SIMILARLY is your life's station so that one asks, 'to whom do we repose our energies, directly, or even, in-directly?'

 

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Dark nights of the Soul? Maybe you're too senitively atuned to wide spread suffering of others emass, and you're piucking uop on the vibe and construeing as your own feelings without an ideal resolution to reply with--thus lossing your personal store of prana from your corrssponding Chakra--thus the seniments are more intense? If so, stop eating at others abodes and distance your self to become centered & whole without investing your own energies toward others' maintanance. You need to offer some 'Tough-Love' to some one's botherations--even if it's yourown ambitiousness.

 

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Boddhisattva = "Boddhi" = Mind + "sattva" = goodness.

 

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there is a always a personality behind the scene

 

"The God is a Person Principle alogory"

(or "Why mayavadi's can't deny a that there is a always a personality behind the scene")

 

by Bhaktajan

 

Q. Who is the personification of the American Dollar Bill?

A. George Washington.

Q. Who is the Living Personification of the American Dollar Bill?

A. George Bush.

Q. Who is the personification of the State of <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><st1:State w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">New York</st1:place></st1:State>'?

A. The Governor (Mr. Spitzer).

Q. Who is the personification of one of the many regional Counties of <st1:place w:st="on"><st1:PlaceName w:st="on">New York</st1:PlaceName> <st1:PlaceType w:st="on">State</st1:PlaceType></st1:place>?

A. The <st1:place w:st="on"><st1:PlaceType w:st="on">County</st1:PlaceType> <st1:PlaceName w:st="on">Executive</st1:PlaceName></st1:place>.

Q. Who is the personification of one of the many Congressional Districts of <st1:place w:st="on"><st1:PlaceName w:st="on"><st1:State w:st="on">New York</st1:State></st1:PlaceName> <st1:PlaceType w:st="on">State</st1:PlaceType></st1:place>?

A. The Congressman/State Representative.

Q. Who is the personification of <st1:City w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">New York City</st1:place></st1:City>?

A. The Mayor (Mr. Blumberg).

Q. Who is the personification of one of the many Districts of <st1:City w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">New York City</st1:place></st1:City>?

A. The Concilman/Ombudsman.

Q. Who is the personification of any 'Block and <st1:place w:st="on">Lot</st1:place>' tax-parcel of land?

A. The title barer (The Land owner).

Q. Who is the personification of the any Apartment building?

A. "The Landlord".

Q. Who is the personification of any apartment?

A. The tenant.

Q. Who is the personification of the room with the football and the many toy Trains?

A. One of the male children.

Q. Who is the personification of nursery room?

A. The Baby.

The point of my illustration is:

"Without the presence of the persona, all paraphernalia is without meaning nor purpose for existing"

PS:

Q. Who is the personification of a mayavadi or Buddhist?

A. His temporary illusion? A Vaisnava to argue with?

 

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I think it was poster sarva gatha who said the phrase:

"Krishna [aka God] is, 'the Supreme Personality of Personalism'".

[mukund]

Sir, to admit frankly i did not understand both your replies. Request you to simplify it if possible.

[bhaktajan]

Mukund,

 

I will humble myself & I will rid myself of all pretense, and I will state the following:

 

If you do not understand my two past posts. I am defeated in my attempts.

 

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If you have a question in reference to any part of any of my two paots I will attempt to simplify.

As I've said to my Mum, 'Which part do you not understand?' --{Yes, I did spell "allegory" incorrectly}

 

 

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Do not regret. Even America does things without knowing who is whom and what is what; and yet they too, carry on with their duties un-abated. [What to speak of other vast masses of peoples.]

 

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Sincerely, I say, if my two above post are indicipherable to you --then you are without benchmark nor reference points yet, from which you are viewing your world outside your eyes.

[sambya]

 

It is not that i seek an evidence to ascertain the existence of god, the question is why is there an conflict of faith and logic within us. My faith says god exists, but the logic say god is invented by humans.

I dont know if any one would believe me if i say i had a an encounter with god in the form a small child, hence there are moments of total faith and at the same time the mind questions the identity of god. It says god is creation just to keep a check on the moral conscience of all as we generally tend to accept things beyond our intellectual diagnosis.

What happens to one who leads a moral and just life but is a non believer in god? He is not striving for salvation but believes in living a just life. Something similar to Buddha, who refutes the existence of god but preaches a healthy and just way of life.

 

in hindu thought reincarnation or tansmigration of souls,karmic law,moksha,bhakti etc forms the basis of philosophy.it is not possible to get a clear idea within a small time.regular study and practice will make things easier.

 

a soul passes on through numerous bodies before attaining a human birth,which,according to the shastras is a chance to realise god.some utilises this chance and some dont.as a soul passes through millions of bodies he gathers experience slowly bit by bit.he continues his material enjoyment or bhoga.after innumerable birth when he has finished experimenting with most material pleasures he turns to god.then begins his true spiritual quest.

 

it might be that your quest have just begun.that is why you are in doubt and confusion.in hinduism religion has to be felt and not just believed.belief or fath is the first step in solidifying your conceptions.so i would suggest not to read any atheistic texts or suchlike philosophies for the time being,so that you dont turn confused again.ofcourse you can read those after developing a firm belief in god.

 

and it is of utmost importance to find a proper spiritual teacher who can help you in this path.be carefull,avoid the dogmatic ones.

 

moral lifestyle increases your punyakarma and makes your next life materially comfortable.but it contributes nothing to self reslization.but when moral lifestyle is used as an accesory to the the main ideal of god realization then it can help a lot.such spirituality induced morality creates purity in heart and helps immensely to destroy false pride and ego,both of which is very necessary for self realization.

 

start extensive reading to get a primary idea.

[suchandra]

 

in hindu thought reincarnation or tansmigration of souls,karmic law,moksha,bhakti etc forms the basis of philosophy.it is not possible to get a clear idea within a small time.regular study and practice will make things easier.

 

a soul passes on through numerous bodies before attaining a human birth,which,according to the shastras is a chance to realise god.some utilises this chance and some dont.as a soul passes through millions of bodies he gathers experience slowly bit by bit.he continues his material enjoyment or bhoga.after innumerable birth when he has finished experimenting with most material pleasures he turns to god.then begins his true spiritual quest.

 

it might be that your quest have just begun.that is why you are in doubt and confusion.in hinduism religion has to be felt and not just believed.belief or fath is the first step in solidifying your conceptions.so i would suggest not to read any atheistic texts or suchlike philosophies for the time being,so that you dont turn confused again.ofcourse you can read those after developing a firm belief in god.

 

and it is of utmost importance to find a proper spiritual teacher who can help you in this path.be carefull,avoid the dogmatic ones.

 

moral lifestyle increases your punyakarma and makes your next life materially comfortable.but it contributes nothing to self reslization.but when moral lifestyle is used as an accesory to the the main ideal of god realization then it can help a lot.such spirituality induced morality creates purity in heart and helps immensely to destroy false pride and ego,both of which is very necessary for self realization.

 

start extensive reading to get a primary idea.

In order to get a direct idea one probably has to associate with advanced devotees and study the symptoms.

Like for example Uddhava - "Uddhav get's the taste of Love with Krishna From Gopi's"

 

 

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[AncientMariner]

 

I have been in a very clogged state of mind with the thoughts fluctating form totall faith to doubt in the exiestence of god. There is a simultenous thought going on in the mind, "GOD IS A CREATION OF HUMAN MIND" and also " GOD EXISTS AND IS THE SUPREME CONTROLLER".

I am an absolute layman and have not read any religious texts, but such contradictory thoughts have been clogging my mind for some time now. Can some one help me understand this state of mind and the reality.

 

 

I can relate to what you are saying. I have had experiences that make me believe that God is real but I live in a world where even most religions are full of mostly exploitation and corruption and that sometimes makes me wonder if my faith is just wishful thinking or I am deluding myself just to make life more tolerable. Those are the sad facts but I figure I will keep chanting and praying so that when I die I might as well call out Hare Krishna and see if it works. Even as sinful as I am I figure at that point I will not have anything to lose by chanting. When I die I am going to try and simultaneously think of Jesus and Krishna at the same time and see what happens. I figure if my experiment doesn't work and I am forced to reincarnate again things cannot get much worse than life on planet Earth right now.

[mukund]

 

Mukund,

 

I will humble myself & I will rid myself of all pretense, and I will state the following:

 

If you do not understand my two past posts. I am defeated in my attempts.

 

:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

 

If you have a question in reference to any part of any of my two paots I will attempt to simplify.

As I've said to my Mum, 'Which part do you not understand?' --{Yes, I did spell "allegory" incorrectly}

 

 

:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

Do not regret. Even America does things without knowing who is whom and what is what; and yet they too, carry on with their duties un-abated. [What to speak of other vast masses of peoples.]

 

:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

Sincerely, I say, if my two above post are indicipherable to you --then you are without benchmark nor reference points yet, from which you are viewing your world outside your eyes.

 

Sir, i must say its my ability to understand and not your ability to explain that is not inferior. Hence please do not say you are defeated in your attempts.

Request

[mukund]

 

Mukund,

 

I will humble myself & I will rid myself of all pretense, and I will state the following:

 

If you do not understand my two past posts. I am defeated in my attempts.

 

:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

 

If you have a question in reference to any part of any of my two paots I will attempt to simplify.

As I've said to my Mum, 'Which part do you not understand?' --{Yes, I did spell "allegory" incorrectly}

 

 

:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

Do not regret. Even America does things without knowing who is whom and what is what; and yet they too, carry on with their duties un-abated. [What to speak of other vast masses of peoples.]

 

:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

Sincerely, I say, if my two above post are indicipherable to you --then you are without benchmark nor reference points yet, from which you are viewing your world outside your eyes.

 

Sir, i must say its my ability to understand and not your ability to explain that is not inferior. Hence please do not say you are defeated in your attempts.

Request you to further elaborate