isopanishad's first sloka indicates advaita philosophy

[ranjeetmore]

 

 

anejad ekam manaso javiyo

nainad deva apnuvan purvam arsat

tad dhavato 'nyan atyeti tisthat

 

tasminn apo matarisva dadhati

isopanishad,verse 4.

 

Although fixed in His abode, the Personality of Godhead is swifter

than the mind and can overcome all others running. The powerful demigods

cannot approach Him. Although in one place, He controls those who supply

 

the air and rain. He surpasses all in excellence.

 

andham tamah pravisanti

ye 'sambhutim upasate

tato bhuya iva te tamo

 

yau sambhutyam ratah

 

Those who are engaged in the worship of demigods enter into the

darkest region of ignorance, and still more so do the worshipers of the

 

impersonal Absolute.

verse 8

[ranjeetmore]

 

 

sambhutim ca vinasam ca

yas tad vedobhayam saha

vinasena mrtyum tirtva

 

sambhutyamrtam asnute

verse 14

 

One should know perfectly the personality of Godhead and His

transcendental name, as well as the temporary material creation with its

temporary demigods, men and animals. When one knows these, he surpasses

death and the ephemeral cosmic manifestation with it, and in the eternal

 

kingdom of God he enjoys his eternal life of bliss and knowledge.

[ranjeetmore]

hiranmayena patrena

 

satyasyapihitam mukham

tat tvam pusann apavrnu

 

satya-dharmaya drstaye

 

 

 

O my Lord, sustainer of all that lives, Your real face is covered

by Your dazzling effulgence. Please remove that covering and exhibit

 

Yourself to Your pure devotee. verse 15

Even a donkey knows that Nirgun,Nirvishesh,Niraakar Bhrahm has no face.

[sambya]

bravo ranjeet ! you have finally started reading !!!!!!!!!. now continue that to the principle upanishads and 18 main puranas ,four vedas , shandilya bhakti sutra, vedanta sutras and a few of similar compositions , a couple of tantra nigamas to check out yourself if i have said anything wrong.although im not sure if jagadguru has published commentaries on all such texts. in case he has not you can check out gita press or othrs.

 

best of luck

[ranjeetmore]

All i wana say:

 

Narakritim parah Brahm.

 

Parabrahm has a form like that of a man.

 

Bible too echoes this fact.

 

There should be no reason to speculate or to twist this sloka's meaning to befit your agendas.

[sambya]

 

There should be no reason to speculate or to twist this sloka's meaning to befit your agendas.

 

aha !! now you get my point.

[bhaktajan]

Originally Posted by sambya:

aha !! now you get my point.

 

:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

Oh Hoozzah! Oh Great! Hurray! sambya's point is gotten!!

 

Great! Great! Great!

 

::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

BTW, "WHAT POINT?"

"WHAT'S HIS POINT?, WHAT WAS HIS POINT?"

 

::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

Inconclusion, allow me to state, unequivically, my sincere interest to know

"DID I MISS HIS POINT?"

 

:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

Bg 14.27:

Krishna says:

“I am the basis of the impersonal Brahman, which is immortal, imperishable and eternal and is the constitutional position of ultimate happiness.”

 

Lord Krishna says that He is the ultimate concept of the Absolute Truth: mattah parataram nanyat.

 

Lord Krishna further explains:

“But what need is there, Arjuna, for all this detailed knowledge? With a single fragment of Myself I pervade and support this entire universe.”

 

Thus by His one plenary expansion, the all-pervading Paramatma, the Lord maintains the complete material cosmic creation. He also maintains all manifestations in the spiritual world. Therefore in this Shruti-mantra of Sri Isopanishad, the Lord is addressed as pushan, the ultimate maintainer. --ISO 15P

 

::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

Isopanishad Mantra 4:

Although fixed in His abode, the Personality of Godhead is swifter than the mind and can overcome all others running. The powerful demigods cannot approach Him. Although in one place, He controls those who supply the air and rain. He surpasses all in excellence.

 

This fourth mantra of Sri Isopanisad very clearly suggests that the Absolute Truth is ultimately the Absolute Person; otherwise there would have been no need to mention so many details in support of His personal features.

 

Perfect knowledge means knowing the Lord in all His features, knowing His potencies and knowing how these potencies work by His will. These matters are described by the Lord in the Bhagavad-gita, the essence of all the Upanisads.

::::::::::::::::::::

 

Isopanishad Mantra 5:

The Supreme Lord walks and does not walk. He is far away, but He is very near as well. He is within everything, and yet He is outside of everything.

 

Here is a description of some of the Supreme Lord’s transcendental activities, executed by His inconceivable potencies. The contradictions given here prove the inconceivable potencies of the Lord. “He walks, and He does not walk.” Ordinarily, if someone can walk, it is illogical to say he cannot walk. But in reference to God, such a contradiction simply serves to indicate His inconceivable power. With our limited fund of knowledge we cannot accommodate such contradictions, and therefore we conceive of the Lord in terms of our limited powers of understanding.

:::::::::::::::::::::::::::

 

Isopanishad Mantra 16:

punann ekarse yama surya prajapatya

vyuha rasmin samuha

tejo yat te rupam kalyana-tamam

tat te pasyami yo ’sav asau purusah so ’ham asmi

 

O my Lord, O primeval philosopher, maintainer of the universe, O regulating principle, destination of the pure devotees, well-wisher of the progenitors of mankind, please remove the effulgence of Your transcendental rays so that I can see Your form of bliss.

You are the eternal Supreme Personality of Godhead, like unto the sun, as am I.

 

 

By realizing the impersonal brahmajyoti, one experiences the auspicious aspect of the Supreme, and by realizing the Paramatma, or all-pervading feature of the Supreme, one experiences an even more auspicious enlightenment. But by meeting the Personality of Godhead Himself face to face, the devotee experiences the most auspicious feature of the Supreme.

Since He is addressed as the primeval philosopher and maintainer and well-wisher of the universe, the Supreme Truth cannot be impersonal. This is the verdict of Sri Isopanisad.

 

The word <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com<st1:place w:st="on">pusan</st1:place></st1:City> (“maintainer”) is especially significant, for although the Lord maintains all beings, He specifically maintains His devotees. After surpassing the impersonal brahmajyoti and seeing the personal aspect of the Lord and His most auspicious eternal form, the devotee realizes the Absolute Truth in full.

 

 

:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

Sambya, I have not come across any mantra in Sri Ispanisad in which the Supreme Personality of Godhead is denied.

 

It is said that He can run faster than anyone.

Those who are running after other planets are certainly persons, and if the Lord can run faster than all of them, how can He be impersonal?

The impersonal conception of the Supreme Lord is another form of ignorance, arising from an imperfect conception of the Absolute Truth.

 

Sambya, It all depends on what your definition of the word 'Lord' is.

 

 

Bolo Hari Nama,

Bhaktajan

[sambya]

 

It is said that He can run faster than anyone.

Those who are running after other planets are certainly persons, and if the Lord can run faster than all of them, how can He be impersonal?

The impersonal conception of the Supreme Lord is another form of ignorance, arising from an imperfect conception of the Absolute Truth.

 

then your 'perfect' god might submit his name for the upcoming 100 meter race in our locality. that would be indeed a magnificent display of his powers and prove his superiority beyond doubt.

 

BTW , do continue with your tradition of providing us with some light refreshments in the form of your humorous posts in middle of serious discussions. thanks and enjoy.

[ranjeetmore]

"Dvai vava bhrahmano rupe murtanchaivamurtanca"- ved.

 

"Murtanchaivamurtam dve aiva brahmano rupe..."

 

-Aadi jagadguru Sri Shankaracharya.

 

"Dwividham hi Brahm avagamyate (a tone of suprise)" -Aadi Jagadguru Sri Shankaracharya

 

 

 

Bramhn has TWO 'rupas' simulataneously.He is 'murt'- saguna,savishesh,saakar as well as 'amurt' nirgun,nirvishesh,niraakar.

He becomes formless and Himself Manifests in a eternal Form whenever He so wishes.

How does He do it?

 

This is how-

 

"parasya shaktir vividhaivashuyate svabhaviki gyana balakriya ca"

svetasvatara upanishad 6.8

 

Brahm has Infinite Saktis which are natural(note: Svabhiviki).By these multifarious,infinite energies does He manifest these two forms(Bhaktas and actual transcendentalists accept the main energy of Godhead as Svarupa Sakti.)

 

Narakritim Param Brahm.

 

 

Brahm has two forms simulataneously.

Vedvyasa has indicated there are 3 features,but they are classified on the energies that are manifested/active (although all anergies being present in each of these features).

There is no need to base your(generalisation) entire existence on 'Aham Brahmasmi' and 'ta tvam asi'.

There is only One: Brahm.

There are only two : Bhrahm and Jeeva.

There are only three: Bhrahm,Jeeva,Maya.

 

All three statements are correct,for all have been accepted by the Vedas.

 

BUT.

Jeevatma and Maya Being Brahm's energies,

It is said that there is only one: Brahm.

 

Jeeva is Brahm's ETERNAL energy and being Chit/chetan/conscious is to be understood to of Brahm's class(SaJAATYA sambandha).

 

Plz note that I am really very incompetent to debate on Acintya Bheda Abheda.

The gosvamis,etc are very adept at this,having followed in the footsteps of Gopis,they intimately know these complex fact of simultaneous oneness and difference with Shyamasundara.

The above post was just what i came across....

[ranjeetmore]

those who say that there is only ONE

 

Those who say that there are only THREE

 

Both are wrong.

[bhaktajan]

Sambya, thank you for admitting defeat on this topic.

I am humbled by your example of humility in facing the intellectual superiority of reading Vedic Scriptures as translated by Paramahansas & MahaBhagavatas. Jai!

 

Thank God that you have realized and admitted that you possess no control over your Peristalsis, Heart-Beat, Breathing, and all bodily functions except, of course, for your chance to yet control your mind's imaginative speculations and self-aggrandising tendencies.

 

Ok Swamiji now go out and forget it!

Keep chanting Hare Krishna and it will go away on its own accord.

[ranjeetmore]

Gita also says:

15.16, 15.17 , 15.18, 15.19, 15.20

 

there are 3 tattvas:

There is Kshara,Akshara and then there is One who controls over these two : Purushottamamah(Sri krsna).

 

"Vishnu saktih parah prokta ksetragyakhya tatha parah

Avidya karma sangyanya tritiya shaktir uchyate"

Vishnu puran-6.7.61

 

Sri Visnu has three energies.Para(personal),ksetra(Jeevaatma) and avidya(Maya/apara).And so it is also said.

 

"Dravyam karmaca kalasya svabhavo jeeva eva ca

vasudevat paro brahmana canyorthostitattvatah "

Bhagvat 2.5.14

 

 

Everything is Vasudeva.He alone exists.Jeeva?

Bah!

Jeeva is a mere energy of Godhead.He has no independent existence.

Same goes for maya.

[ranjeetmore]

"Brhati bhrngayati tat param Brahm"

 

Brahm is the One Who is the greatest and who ALSO makes others great.

 

-the definition of Brahm in vedas.

 

 

 

"Bhrhatvat Bhringhadatvat ca tat brahmetya vidhiyate"- Vishnu Puran.

 

This is corroborated in the Vishnu Puran,where Sri Vishnu is identified as Brahm.

 

How great is He ?

 

"Svayam tva samyat tishayatryadhesha " -Bhagavat puran 3.2.21

 

Neither is there anyone as Great as Him nor is there anyone greater than Him.

 

This is also accepted by arjuna in the Gita.

[sambya]

 

Bramhn has TWO 'rupas' simulataneously.He is 'murt'- saguna,savishesh,saakar as well as 'amurt' nirgun,nirvishesh,niraakar.

He becomes formless and Himself Manifests in a eternal Form whenever He so wishes.

How does He do it?

 

This is how-

 

"parasya shaktir vividhaivashuyate svabhaviki gyana balakriya ca"

svetasvatara upanishad 6.8

 

Brahm has Infinite Saktis which are natural(note: Svabhiviki).By these multifarious,infinite energies does He manifest these two forms(Bhaktas and actual transcendentalists accept the main energy of Godhead as Svarupa Sakti.)

 

Narakritim Param Brahm.

 

 

Brahm has two forms simulataneously.

Vedvyasa has indicated there are 3 features,but they are classified on the energies that are manifested/active (although all anergies being present in each of these features).

There is no need to base your(generalisation) entire existence on 'Aham Brahmasmi' and 'ta tvam asi'.

 

i dont know if you have understood me but thats precisely the point i want to convey in this forum. brahman is as much sagun as he is nirgun.these two are two sides of the reality.he is both personal and impersonal at the same time.

 

how is that ? he is infinite and absolute. why cant he be both at the same time. ill qoute a parable of ramakrishna.................

 

" once two devotees met sage narada while he was on earth.both of them eagerly asked about lord at vaikuntha . to this narada replied that he has seen vishnu making an elephant pass through the needle hole when he came. hearing this the first devotee said 'rubbish thats not possible .how can a large elephant pass through a small hole ?!!!!' the second devotee said 'you arer correct o sage,for nothing is impossible for my lord .' "

 

this is a basic message to all .nothing is impossible for him.he is both personal ,impersonal and beyond that at any point of time.

 

so i never claimed god to be exclusively impersonal as you seem to suggest( aham brahmasmi tatwamasi etc) . infact its you who is claiming that he is exclusively personal.

 

please note that im not placing nirguna brahman as inferior to sagun brahman , as you guys tend to do always. i believe in supremacy of both of them . both are equally placed and equally true.

 

please dont limit god . by claiming that he is only 'this' and nothing more than 'this' you are drawing a finite limit upon the infinite truth. this goes against basic reasonings.

[Amlesh]

True but the Gita proclaims.. the best and most beautiful way is to know Him in His Manusya Form which is more complicated to know than His impersonal form.

He said that after showing his Viraat Roop and Vishnu Roop and ultimately coming to his Human Form.

 

That's one of the reason why, the Gita-Govinda was written by Jayadev.

[Amlesh]

By calling God by Krishna is infact defining God in its Totality.

Any other way is infact perceiving God with a limited vision.

[sambya]

 

True but the Gita proclaims.. the best and most beautiful way is to know Him in His Manusya Form which is more complicated to know than His impersonal form.

He said that after showing his Viraat Roop and Vishnu Roop and ultimately coming to his Human Form.

 

That's one of the reason why, the Gita-Govinda was written by Jayadev.

 

true !! i never said advaita is the easiest path.it is one of the most difficult paths.and most individuals are not suited to this path.

 

i only want to say that advaita exists as much as bhakti do. and none is inferior to the other.

[sambya]

 

Sambya, thank you for admitting defeat on this topic.

I am humbled by your example of humility in facing the intellectual superiority of reading Vedic Scriptures as translated by Paramahansas & MahaBhagavatas. Jai!

 

Thank God that you have realized and admitted that you possess no control over your Peristalsis, Heart-Beat, Breathing, and all bodily functions except, of course, for your chance to yet control your mind's imaginative speculations and self-aggrandising tendencies.

 

Ok Swamiji now go out and forget it!

Keep chanting Hare Krishna and it will go away on its own accord.

 

is that all that you can think of -------defeat , winning, arguing, defending , blasphemising ?!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

i wonder , whats going wrong with hare krishna devotees !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Amlesh]

 

i only want to say that advaita exists as much as bhakti do. and none is inferior to the other.

I won't deny their existence.

I won't say inferior since I hold respect for them. But certainly there is only 1 which is complete.

I'll let each individual depending on their level of consciousness decide on that.

[sambya]

 

I'll let each individual depending on their level of consciousness decide on that.

 

thats better .

 

but there is also such a thing in shastras as 'ruchi' or taste.no two humans can think of god in a like manner.evryone has a different relation and conception of god. this conception is modelled on our own nature. it is said that if animals would have had religion then their god would probabaly have been another superanimal. as we are limited by senses we cannot help but think of god in human terms. and this thought varies immensely from person to person.

 

that is why you can find so many religions in world.there can never be a time when there will be only one religion. no matter how hard christianity , islam , emperor constantine etc tried ,they failed to create a single religion.their own religion got split up into numerous sects.this is the because of individual tastes and preferences which they failed to recognise.hinduism recoginses this and thats why we find so many innumerable methods of sadhana , millions of gods, hundreads of philosophies etc. it is hinduisms biggest strentgh and one of the key factors in its miraculous preservation thorugh history.

 

so what path an individual would take depends largely on his ruchi and level of conciousness.

[bhaktajan]

Advaita = vedanta = jnana = yoga metaphysics.

 

The conculsion of yoga metaphysics is respecting God's Monotheistic sovereign right to be His own self-defined self:

 

An Almighty Personality of GodHead existing trancendental to our material existance

---and hence the inaliable right to societal Democratic principles of freedom & the pursuit of Happiness etc etc etc.

 

That is why personalism [via the Revelations of the Vedas] in the Transcendant Personality of Godhead, Krishna/Vasudeva et al, is the Majestic revelation & gift of India's heritage & birthright bestowed upon the world ---'ironically' {'dualistically speaking'}] at a time of great maya-torment.

 

If I say you are being a non-sense Sambya-- you SHOULD accept the mercy --that is what I am saying. But one must be acclimated to nectar.

One must have learnt or yearnd for the discrimination to decern what is nectar versus what is not nectar.

 

:::::::::::::::::

 

"But certainly there is only 1 which is complete."

 

--Yes, Ha cha, That's best.

 

bhaktajan

 

:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

 

Sambya, in my book, making a show that expects me to suspend my sense of reality ---inorder to follow along with your presentation should always be confined to the realm of staged fiction.

 

Brava! Ancora! What Showmanship Sambya!

 

I have provided so many references from the other 18 verses of the Isopanishad --that are densely populated with Upanishadic Theistic injunctions that any true Hindu [without any ulterior sleeper motives] would relish & revel & rejoice in as evidence of the next Higher stratum of Hindu Metaphysical Transcendental Theistic Personalistic logic.

 

The west has learnt all the samskaras & arcanas & meditations that have long been confind to the inner sactums of India's sublime treasure throves --you are late in coming to the game.

 

Any way the next head lines are upcoming still.

 

Bhaktajan

 

"All wars, conflagrations and societal disturbances share the same common-denominator: Fleash eating industries."

 

"Live by the sword; die by the sword represents all livelihoods that utilise blood sacrifices; all the more, even if, the sacrifice is only for acheiving some fleeting restive mundane result."

 

::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

What the world needs now is to stop eating their mothers and their mothers' distant cousins and their family black sheep too, Sambya.

 

So, Sambya, do not be like a croaking crow --make plans to please the Brahmana-bandus by propagating 'non-violence' as it is spelt out in the injuctions of Vedic sastra, as propagated by our ancients.

[Amlesh]

 

thats better .

 

What was bad?

 

 

but there is also such a thing in shastras as 'ruchi' or taste.no two humans can think of god in a like manner.evryone has a different relation and conception of god. this conception is modelled on our own nature. it is said that if animals would have had religion then their god would probabaly have been another superanimal. as we are limited by senses we cannot help but think of god in human terms. and this thought varies immensely from person to person.

 

No.

It depends of HIM. The much He wants you to see HIM.

 

 

that is why you can find so many religions in world.there can never be a time when there will be only one religion. no matter how hard christianity , islam , emperor constantine etc tried ,they failed to create a single religion.their own religion got split up into numerous sects.this is the because of individual tastes and preferences which they failed to recognise.hinduism recoginses this and thats why we find so many innumerable methods of sadhana , millions of gods, hundreads of philosophies etc. it is hinduisms biggest strentgh and one of the key factors in its miraculous preservation thorugh history.

 

However, Truth is one without a second.

There is only 1 source of knowledge which never deride other philosophy and that is THE GITA.

Whatever you've said is just separated but interdependent elements of that Truth.

Even Hinduism has its limited perception even though more profound than the rest of the different philosophies.

 

I won't classify the Gita as under Hinduism, it is BEYOND all barriers.

 

 

so what path an individual would take depends largely on his ruchi and level of conciousness.

Yes... but it is only one of the infinite criteria.

The real one is HIS WILLINGNESS to reveal or not.

[sambya]

 

What was bad?

 

saying that personal god is a better understanding of the supreme than impersonal understanding . although it was bad according to my individual opinion.

 

 

No.

It depends of HIM. The much He wants you to see HIM.

 

 

i dont think so !!!! because if it would have depended exclusively on him to chose to reveal his 'superior' personal aspect to some and 'inferior' impersonal aspect to some , then he would be stained with the vice of partiality. that would make him imperfect ,and hence not god.

 

how can someone who is perfect and causelessly mercifull show 'superior' form to some and his inferior form to some ?!!! it rather depends on what we desire to see from him. a pure devotee would never care for his impersonal aspect but would rather go with his lovable personal side.

 

i guess i got what you are trying to suggest. maybe you are trying to say that seeing him( god realisation) is absolutely dependent on his mercy, thats perfectly true. untill he wills no one can achieve any amount of realizations. but question arises why does he bestow this mercy to some individuals , leaving the rest . this mercy is of prime importance but it blesses only those who sincirely search for him through unfaltering steps . our purushakaar(zeal) and enthusiam about sadhana helps to determine on whom this divine mercy would show up.

 

a similar discussion is there in the beutifull book of bhakti--- madhurya kadambini by srila vishwanath chakrabary thakur ( a saint of gaudiya vaishnavism) . he speculated what could be the cause of bhakti? is it due to punyakarma ? is it due to good associations? is it due to mercy of vaishnavas? is ti due to grace of god? the question is indeed a real tough one.in the end he suggested that bhakti itself is its cause.

[sambya]

 

However, Truth is one without a second.

There is only 1 source of knowledge which never deride other philosophy and that is THE GITA.

Whatever you've said is just separated but interdependent elements of that Truth.

Even Hinduism has its limited perception even though more profound than the rest of the different philosophies.

 

I won't classify the Gita as under Hinduism, it is BEYOND all barriers.

 

as truth is infinite each religion seems to have got a certain aspect of truth. each of these faiths have something unique in its teachings that is seperate from other faiths.thats what makes these faiths exist. every religion has something to contribute to the world.the day its contibution finishes the religion fades away instantly.

 

so all religions and beliefs are showing a part of the truth thats absolute and without a second. thats why i say dont limit god.

 

surely gita is the highest philosophical treatise of hinduism. they are the supreme divine revelations and cannot be bounded by material definations( exactly the thing that iskcon wants to do by providing monopoly translations of gita)

[sambya]

 

" Advaita = vedanta = jnana = yoga metaphysics.

 

The conculsion of yoga metaphysics is respecting God's Monotheistic sovereign right to be His own self-defined self:

 

An Almighty Personality of GodHead existing trancendental to our material existance

---and hence the inaliable right to societal Democratic principles of freedom & the pursuit of Happiness etc etc etc.

 

That is why personalism [via the Revelations of the Vedas] in the Transcendant Personality of Godhead, Krishna/Vasudeva et al, is the Majestic revelation & gift of India's heritage & birthright bestowed upon the world ---'ironically' {'dualistically speaking'}] at a time of great maya-torment.

 

If I say you are being a non-sense Sambya-- you SHOULD accept the mercy --that is what I am saying. But one must be acclimated to nectar.

One must have learnt or yearnd for the discrimination to decern what is nectar versus what is not nectar............................................................What the world needs now is to stop eating their mothers and their mothers' distant cousins and their family black sheep too, Sambya.

So, Sambya, do not be like a croaking crow --make plans to please the Brahmana-bandus by propagating 'non-violence' as it is spelt out in the injuctions of Vedic sastra, as propagated by our ancients.

"

 

 

clap clap clap !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!