Regarding Thread 'Is Mukti a Myth'

[bhaktajan]

1) The soul is "always active, always desires, always conscious"

 

2) Release from bondage = liberation = no more ingnorance of Param-atman [aka, paramesvaram, hrishikesh, suhrdam-sarva-bhutanam --Bg 5.29*]

 

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*

 

 

 

 

 

bhoktäraà yajïa-tapasäà

 

 

 

 

sarva-loka-maheçvaram

suhådaà sarva-bhütänäà

 

 

jïätvä mäà çäntim åcchati

 

 

 

 

"A person in full consciousness of Me, knowing Me to be the ultimate beneficiary of all sacrifices and austerities, the Supreme Lord of all planets and demigods, and the benefactor and well-wisher of all living entities, attains peace from the pangs of material miseries." (Bg 5.29)

The conditioned souls within the clutches of illusory energy are all anxious to attain peace in the material world. But they do not know the formula for peace, which is explained in this part of the Bhagavad-gétä. The greatest peace formula is simply this: Lord Kåñëa is the beneficiary in all human activities. Men should offer everything to the transcendental service of the Lord because He is the proprietor of all planets and the demigods thereon.

No one is greater than He. He is greater than the greatest of the demigods, Lord Çiva and Lord Brahmä. In the Vedas (Çvetäçvatara Upaniñad 6.7) the Supreme Lord is described as tam éçvaräëäà paramaà maheçvaraà. Under the spell of illusion, living entities are trying to be lords of all they survey, but actually they are dominated by the material energy of the Lord.

The Lord is the master of material nature, and the conditioned souls are under the stringent rules of material nature. Unless one understands these bare facts, it is not possible to achieve peace in the world either individually or collectively. This is the sense of Kåñëa consciousness: Lord Kåñëa is the supreme predominator, and all living entities, including the great demigods, are His subordinates. One can attain perfect peace only in complete Kåñëa consciousness.

This Fifth Chapter is a practical explanation of Kåñëa consciousness, generally known as karma-yoga. The question of mental speculation as to how karma-yoga can give liberation is answered herewith. To work in Kåñëa consciousness is to work with the complete knowledge of the Lord as the predominator. Such work is not different from transcendental knowledge.

Direct Kåñëa consciousness is bhakti-yoga, and jïäna-yoga is a path leading to bhakti-yoga. Kåñëa consciousness means to work in full knowledge of one’s relationship with the Supreme Absolute, and the perfection of this consciousness is full knowledge of Kåñëa, or the Supreme Personality of Godhead.

A pure soul is the eternal servant of God as His fragmental part and parcel. He comes into contact with mäyä (illusion) due to the desire to lord it over mäyä, and that is the cause of his many sufferings. As long as he is in contact with matter, he has to execute work in terms of material necessities. Kåñëa consciousness, however, brings one into spiritual life even while one is within the jurisdiction of matter, for it is an arousing of spiritual existence by practice in the material world.

The more one is advanced, the more he is freed from the clutches of matter. The Lord is not partial toward anyone. Everything depends on one’s practical performance of duties in Kåñëa consciousness, which helps one control the senses in every respect and conquer the influence of desire and anger. And one who stands fast in Kåñëa consciousness, controlling the abovementioned passions, remains factually in the transcendental stage, or brahma-nirväëa.

The eightfold yoga mysticism is automatically practiced in Kåñëa consciousness because the ultimate purpose is served. There is a gradual process of elevation in the practice of yama, niyama, äsana, präëäyäma, pratyähära, dhäraëä, dhyäna and samädhi. But these only preface perfection by devotional service, which alone can award peace to the human being. It is the highest perfection of life.

Thus end the Bhaktivedanta Purports to the Fifth Chapter of the Çrémad Bhagavad-gétä in the matter of Karma-yoga, or Action in Kåñëa Consciousness.

 

[bhaktajan]

Melvin,

 

With all due respect:

 

WHEN DID YOU BECOME VEGETARIAN?

 

HOW HAVE YOU PROGRESSED IN TURNING SOCIETY INTO VEGETARIANS? [AND, THUS, THE STOPPAGE OF EATING OUR MOTHERS?].

[Matador30]

 

no brahman is realised in living state . one can realize brahman in this birth itself ,provided one does have the capacity and requisites to do so.

 

So isn't Brahman the object of experience ?

 

Also can you please explain rebirth from your standpoint ?

 

 

That is easy. Most of it comes from the Gita as is usually the case with rebirth logic.

Soul:

There was never a time Arjuna, when you did not exist, nor a time when you will cease to exist. [2.12]

Bondage:

The concept of beginningless ignorance/bondage is derived from the above as follows.

1) The soul is beginningless and has been moving from one body to another [2.20, etc]

2) Release from bondage = liberation = no more rebirth. [8.15, etc]

From 1,2 it follows rebirth occurs due to bondage. It follows bondage is also beginningless along with the soul.

There is no dispute here among the 3 traditions. The dispute comes in how bondage ends and what happens next.

Cheers

A very interesting post, thank you.

 

Thank you Bhaktajan, my brain will take sometime to process what you have written.

[kaisersose]

 

what does that mean ??!! no !!! none of us are !! a liberated soul wound'nt roam about internet at all !!!!!!!!

 

There is no set model of a "Liberated man" defining his behavior and actions. It does not come from any mainstream scripture that I know of. Tattavada actually denies the concept of Jivanmukti.

 

Though Advaita admits the concept, the problem is it is next to impossible for us to correctly identify one - if such a one exists. In all the cases I have observed, the Liberated man was designated as such for purely sentimental reasons - Sai Baba, Ramakrishna, Ramana, UG, etc. Their followers have accepted them solely on sentiments and faith and nothing else.

 

I cannot claim to have special skills to be able to identify a liberated man or woman when I see one and I dont think anyone can.

 

From a logical perspective, what is the person liberated from? I can't think of anything! The same applies to liberation from rebirth. Rebirth can only be a problem to be afraid of if there is some memory of past pain. Since that is never the case, the whole concept of freedom from rebirth is moot.

 

Cheers

[bhaktajan]

Originally Posted by kaisersose:

"From a logical perspective, what is the person liberated from?"

 

HA HA HA HA !!! HA HA HA HA !!! HA HA HA HA !!!

What is the person liberated from? FEAR!!!!

 

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Melvin, you're mind is self-realized. After death your soul may be achieve liberation.

 

Yet ... in Krishna Consciousness, the "Means" and the "Goal" is equal in quality in all regards --so your mind and soul may be self-realized.

 

But, the intellect & mind are 'out-of-control' at the moment of death --so daily practice is the insurance and plan 'B' of spiritual life.

 

Seperation makes the heart fonder.

[melvin]

 

Originally Posted by kaisersose:

"From a logical perspective, what is the person liberated from?"

 

HA HA HA HA !!! HA HA HA HA !!! HA HA HA HA !!!

What is the person liberated from? FEAR!!!!

 

:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

Melvin, you're mind is self-realized. After death your soul may be achieve liberation.

 

Yet ... in Krishna Consciousness, the "Means" and the "Goal" is equal in quality in all regards --so your mind and soul may be self-realized.

 

But, the intellect & mind are 'out-of-control' at the moment of death --so daily practice is the insurance and plan 'B' of spiritual life.

 

Seperation makes the heart fonder.

 

 

Bhaktajan, I declared myself on sick leave since yesterday. Therefore, I won`t be able to report again for work at the CPDRC clinic today. I`ll take an ECG exam and have my chest x-rayed early this morning. In other words, I`m not feeling well.My blood pressure went up and I`m experiencing palpitations or irregular heart beats. My co-worker Dr. Ivy will take over my place temporarily.

 

We were discussing about mukti or liberation. That my mind has become self-realized and when I give up this body, I`ll be liberated. Once released from the bondage of this material body, the conclusion is that there`ll be no next life for a liberated soul because he/she has attained Godhood say, as an associate of Krsna.

 

Talking about meeting and separation, I think it is inevitable. That souls meet not by chance but an eternal arrangement planned by God. They enjoy each other`s company until it`s time to go. But they never go because in the 1st place they never leave( Haha).

 

Hare Krsna & God bless

 

Melvin

[ganeshiva]

great

[bija]

 

Hare Krsna & God bless

 

Melvin

take good care melvin...be well..

 

I just got some results from doctor an hour ago and my liver is still getting sicker... so every day is moving toward the source of love.

 

om shanti... god is beautiful hey..life divine... le mileu divin

 

yours

[bija]

 

So, do you think I`m liberated at this point in time?

 

Some old friends became pentecostal born again christians...they always say to me 'are you born again?'

 

I say to them, 'I am born again every day'.

 

My spiritual name is 'Ever-new'.... so for me the process and the journey is like that....eternity is forever....love is ever-new....and liberation is a continual unfoldment of being.

[jeffster]

Hi Melvin,

I also get heart palpitations from time to time, so I have been taking some herbs for years, and for the most part, the herbs, as well as some life-style changes I have made, keep the heart problems in check. As Krishna says in Gita " I am the healing herb," and you and I discussed Dhanvantari briefly previously.

Anyway, I just wanted to let you know that I take a little cocktail of 3 herbs. Here they are, as well as info on where you can obtain them:

1.) Arjuna bark, the main ingredient in Abana, along with other herbs. From Himalaya Drug Co., Banglalore India. I am not sure where you can get this in Phillipines. They also have distributor in USA. Arjuna bark is the traditional E. Indian heart health herb.

2. Arjuna bark, also the main ingredient in Divya Hridyamrit, distributed by Divya Pharmacy, available right here on the indiadivine.org website. You order here online and they ship it directly from India anywhere in the world.

3.) Hawthorne berries, the traditional European heart health herb. I am not sure where you can get these in Phillipines, they likely don't grow there as European climate is much cooler. Possibly a local herb store has them. They are just little dried berries. Quite strong when freshly dried.

4.) Salvia pills, otherwise known as Dan Shen Yin Wan, is a traditional Chinese formula for heart health, as well as other ills. There are likely Chinese herb merchants in the big Phillipine cities, check there.

I take Arjuna bark and hawthorn daily, Salvia when I need a little extra. Or you can take these herbs in rotation.

 

ALSO, related to this post discussing the thread "Is Mukti a Myth," I found in Science of Self Realization by Prabhupad a chapter called "The Immortal Nectar of the Bhagavad-gita," where Prabupad directly quotes Sankaracharya's entire "Meditations on the Bhagavad-gita," and adds his own commentaries. Prabhupad directly glorifies Srila Sankaracharya and declares him to be an incarnation of Lord Shiva. Here is an excerpt:

"Sankara directly offers salutations to Krishna, as if to show the fools, who are searching after light, that here is light like the sun. But the fallen demons are like owls that will not open their eyes on account of their fear of the sunlight itself. These owls will never open their eyes to see the sublime light of Krishna and His words the Bhagavad-gita. They will, however, comment on the Gita with their closed owl-eyes to mislead their unfortunate readers and followers. Sankara, however, discloses the light to his less intelligent followers and shows that the Bhagavad-gita and Krishna are the only source of light. This is all to teach the sincere seekers of the truth to offer salutation to Lord Krishna and thus surrender unto Him without misgivings. That is the highest perfection of life, and that is the highest teaching of Sankara, the great learned scholar whose teachings drove the voidest philosophy of Buddha out of India, the land of knowledge. Om, tat, sat."

Regards, jeffster/AMdas

[melvin]

 

Hi Melvin,

I also get heart palpitations from time to time, so I have been taking some herbs for years, and for the most part, the herbs, as well as some life-style changes I have made, keep the heart problems in check. As Krishna says in Gita " I am the healing herb," and you and I discussed Dhanvantari briefly previously.

Anyway, I just wanted to let you know that I take a little cocktail of 3 herbs. Here they are, as well as info on where you can obtain them:

1.) Arjuna bark, the main ingredient in Abana, along with other herbs. From Himalaya Drug Co., Banglalore India. I am not sure where you can get this in Phillipines. They also have distributor in USA. Arjuna bark is the traditional E. Indian heart health herb.

2. Arjuna bark, also the main ingredient in Divya Hridyamrit, distributed by Divya Pharmacy, available right here on the indiadivine.org website. You order here online and they ship it directly from India anywhere in the world.

3.) Hawthorne berries, the traditional European heart health herb. I am not sure where you can get these in Phillipines, they likely don't grow there as European climate is much cooler. Possibly a local herb store has them. They are just little dried berries. Quite strong when freshly dried.

4.) Salvia pills, otherwise known as Dan Shen Yin Wan, is a traditional Chinese formula for heart health, as well as other ills. There are likely Chinese herb merchants in the big Phillipine cities, check there.

I take Arjuna bark and hawthorn daily, Salvia when I need a little extra. Or you can take these herbs in rotation.

 

ALSO, related to this post discussing the thread "Is Mukti a Myth," I found in Science of Self Realization by Prabhupad a chapter called "The Immortal Nectar of the Bhagavad-gita," where Prabupad directly quotes Sankaracharya's entire "Meditations on the Bhagavad-gita," and adds his own commentaries. Prabhupad directly glorifies Srila Sankaracharya and declares him to be an incarnation of Lord Shiva. Here is an excerpt:

"Sankara directly offers salutations to Krishna, as if to show the fools, who are searching after light, that here is light like the sun. But the fallen demons are like owls that will not open their eyes on account of their fear of the sunlight itself. These owls will never open their eyes to see the sublime light of Krishna and His words the Bhagavad-gita. They will, however, comment on the Gita with their closed owl-eyes to mislead their unfortunate readers and followers. Sankara, however, discloses the light to his less intelligent followers and shows that the Bhagavad-gita and Krishna are the only source of light. This is all to teach the sincere seekers of the truth to offer salutation to Lord Krishna and thus surrender unto Him without misgivings. That is the highest perfection of life, and that is the highest teaching of Sankara, the great learned scholar whose teachings drove the voidest philosophy of Buddha out of India, the land of knowledge. Om, tat, sat."

Regards, jeffster/AMdas

 

Jeffster, I just arrived home from the Lab. My ECG results reveal sinus bradycardia( Heart rate below 60 beats/min), inferior infarct(age undetermined) and abnormal ECG. In other words, the scar in my heart is still here. The beats of my heart are slow. It must be the B-Blocker(Metoprolol) 100mg 1 tab a day I take to decrease my high blood pressure. Unfortunately, I`m not taking any herbs. I take a multivitamin(Centrum silver) 1 tab daily. I stopped taking aspirin because my liver enzyme(SGPT) is high. I still have to know the results of my chest x-ray pa view( it can tell you if your heart is failing) and SGPT determination(To find out if you have liver cirrhosis). I`ll be going back to the Lab this afternoon.

When Lord Krsna departed for Goloka Vrndavan, he introduced the pastime SOMA-RASA(alcoholic intoxication) so that the people will forget Him. Up to this time, I still wonder why?

[jeffster]

Hello again Melvin,

The problem that I've found with allopathic medicine is that they solve one problem with a drug while creating another, which is to say that many of their drugs have unwanted side-effects. The herbs I take all help in controlling high blood pressure, as well. Healthy diet can also help with high blood pressure. I have high blood pressure, also, but I have vastly cut down consumption of salt, and things like ginseng cannot be taken either. I take no allopathic medication for either heart or high blood pressure.

My understanding is that soma-rasa is not an alcoholic beverage as we know it here on earth, but rather a more subtle intoxicant found on the moon planet, possibly other planets. We are all busy here forgetting Krishna, so perhaps to satisfy our desires to be separate from Him, He gave soma-rasa to enhance the illusory effect which intoxication provides.

Regards, jeffster/AMdas

[sambya]

 

There is no set model of a "Liberated man" defining his behavior and actions. It does not come from any mainstream scripture that I know of. Tattavada actually denies the concept of Jivanmukti.

Though Advaita admits the concept, the problem is it is next to impossible for us to correctly identify one - if such a one exists. In all the cases I have observed, the Liberated man was designated as such for purely sentimental reasons - Sai Baba, Ramakrishna, Ramana, UG, etc. Their followers have accepted them solely on sentiments and faith and nothing else.

I cannot claim to have special skills to be able to identify a liberated man or woman when I see one and I dont think anyone can.

From a logical perspective, what is the person liberated from? I can't think of anything! The same applies to liberation from rebirth. Rebirth can only be a problem to be afraid of if there is some memory of past pain. Since that is never the case, the whole concept of freedom from rebirth is moot.

 

true that there is no strict way to identify a liberated soul . a person's behaviour becomes 'abnormal' by material standards . his behaviour might become like that of a mad person or a small baby. whatever may be the symptoms one thing is certain that their behaviour no longer conforms to the mainstream society.

 

perhaps another crucial point to be noted is that such individuals would generally not speak anything other than god . their mind becomes filled with god and that naturally reflects in their speech also . they wont be able to discuss non spiritual things for long.

 

its also true that the followers of ramakrishna , ramana etc have accepted them as liberated on grounds of faith and sentiment . but isnt that the case with all spiritual persons on earth ? without those two virtues no one can step into a spiritual path . but one thing to be taken in account is initial scepticism about ones would be guru is essential . as it helps to assertain his genuinity . after this surrender is necessary .

 

humanity is always striving for peace and happiness . but whatever happiness they are getting are tinged with immidiate sorrow . all thorugh ones life he faces one sorrow after the other . and that continues in the next life also . so i think its about being liberated from this recurring dukkha and enter into a world of constant peace (assuming that dukkha continues into the next birth as well ) . thats also what buddha preached.

[Amlesh]

 

true that there is no strict way to identify a liberated soul . a person's behaviour becomes 'abnormal' by material standards . his behaviour might become like that of a mad person or a small baby. whatever may be the symptoms one thing is certain that their behaviour no longer conforms to the mainstream society.

 

Indeed, it is impossible to trace the moves and thinking of a liberated soul.. He becomes as mysterious as His Lord... but luckily, He comes in servitude mood.

[Matador30]

Can anyone please tell me why Brahman is not the object of experience ?

 

Thanks

[coolrishu]

there is no birth,no death,no sadhu(one who is performing or the one who thinks who performs),no MUkTI

this is the "purushartha"

[Matador30]

I have not realised Brahman so it is unknown to me, but I know it exists, so isn't it an object ?

[sambya]

 

I have not realised Brahman so it is unknown to me, but I know it exists, so isn't it an object ?

 

brahman is the only 'object' . this might be one of the infinite ways of understanding him.

[sambya]

 

Can anyone please tell me why Brahman is not the object of experience ?

 

he is the object of experience !!!!!!!!! infact there is no other way except ecperience .

[Matador30]

Sambya Ji have you gone through this thread ?

 

http://www.indiadivine.org/audarya/advaita-vedanta/139029-brahman-not-knowable-object-ones-mind.html

 

Thanks

[bija]

In the west since 17th century to modern science, subjective experience was considered to have flaws. Therefore objective rational, and analytical viewpoints were held in high esteem.

 

Before that rational scientific viewpoint took hold subjective experience was the natural flow. So in a sense experience of brahman could be considered as super-subjective.

 

Here is an example. Last week I was testing a small portable digital tv antenna on my laptop. There was another tv in the room also. It was interesting because both tv's were receiving signal differently, there was a time lapse, therefore the two tv's picture and sound did no sync perfectly with each other.

 

As an observor of these two fields I was able to distinguish the difference in the time lapse - it was a subjective experience for me, even though I was viewing two objects. Also, with that subjective encounter I was also able to perceive that the original digital signal was above the two tv's and also a higher principle than my obervation - but still known.

 

The lower frequency objects (two tv's), and my mind, were dependant on a higher function for that particular experience, therefore a super-subjective field and encounter. Interesting to note in obervation that as one begins to identify with a higher frequency the quality of that higher (truth) frequency begins to manifest in one's being, and all fields both higher and lower become relishable. This is the mystery where relative levels begin to disperse, and subjective conscious experience begins to flow. Infact those in connection with a deeper truth are very potent beings - because they have the broader conscious experience (above relative vision).