dying

[eshwaar101]

it is understood that if u were to die instanly, lets say from a gun shot wound it would be benificial to your soul cause u will get a chance to think of god while u are dying therefore u will accend to heaven. A prolonged death leaves the chance that u will be thinking of the material world, i.e worrying about loved ones, work that isnt yet finished, or dreams that has never been acomplished. So what happens when u die in ur sleep, what happens on the subcounsice level do u even at all think of god, some of us may have dreams or visions of god but they are random at best and there is no predicting when such event may happen again. so what happens when u die in ur sleep, do u go off to a delluded world, are u suck in this reality as a ghost or wondering spirit, what really happens??????

[bija]

This is a book about death and the mind:

 

 

http://www.scribd.com/doc/5998365/Grof-Stanislav-The-Human-Encounter-With-Death

 

I experienced a profound NDE and existential journey/opening and initially crisis. This writers perspectives sit well with my own transpersonal vision.

 

Eshwaar, the experience of death is common to all, but some societies have very little ritual or preparation. When infact death can be an opportunity for liberation and coming closer to our original being.

[eshwaar101]

i agree that not all scoicetys has any sort of preperation for death, but im intrested in knowing what happens to the mind and soul in an unconsiouce level when it is time to pass. u said that u had a nde and u read this book which u tend to agree that it conforms to what u experianced, is it all possiable that u had willingly accepted this theroy, after all the mind in bith a counsiouce and sub counsiouse level do play trick on us, im arguing with what had happened to u as false, im just arguing that everyone is different and so to is our minds. is it possiable to explain what happened in your nde, i think it would help me understand it more better, but u are right how could anyone be reaslly prepeared for death.

[bija]

I had the nde before I had read any metaphysical stuff basically... there seems to be an unconscious realm in the psyche. Built in.

[eshwaar101]

would u care to elaberate on your experiances

[bija]

I really dont know eshwaar how to talk about the death experience with another who needs to know.

 

We each need to hold accountability and prepare. I can only suggest a book by one who is researched deeply into the matter.

[theist]

Near-Death.com http://www.near-death.com/

 

Tons of peoples experiences with NDE's.

 

Just as there are individual experiences of so-called life in the flesh yet the basic template of a human life is the same, so also with death.

 

Krsna says He will help His devotee remember Him at the time of death. Krishna consciousness is much more than applying the right trick at the time of death, it is personal between Krsna and His devotee.

 

If we come to love Krsna we won't have to worry about death ever again.

 

Krishna says concerning His devotee that He preserves what the devotee has and carries what He lacks.

 

Also the even more fearsome prospect of rebirth will no longer haunt us. Birth in another body subject to birth death old age and disease to me is much more a worry then leaving this present body.

[Avinash]

I wish I also had NDE. But I do not want to try to have that experience.

[sambya]

 

it is understood that if u were to die instanly, lets say from a gun shot wound it would be benificial to your soul cause u will get a chance to think of god while u are dying therefore u will accend to heaven. A prolonged death leaves the chance that u will be thinking of the material world, i.e worrying about loved ones, work that isnt yet finished, or dreams that has never been acomplished.

 

although what you say is correct it should be noted that only highly exalted devotees with deep sadhana ia capable of remembering god at the time of death. there is a parable of ramakrishna in this aspect ...........

 

" if you dont teach a parrot harinaam at its young age it shall never learn to speak harinaam later when it grows old. and when the cat catches it can never utter hari's name.instead it would resort to screaching. "

 

if we dont practise sadhana we can never think of god at the final hour.how can a person who did not think of lord when he was healthy and strong think of him when he is diseased and in a painfull state.

 

 

So what happens when u die in ur sleep, what happens on the subcounsice level do u even at all think of god, some of us may have dreams or visions of god but they are random at best and there is no predicting when such event may happen again. so what happens when u die in ur sleep, do u go off to a delluded world, are u suck in this reality as a ghost or wondering spirit, what really happens??????

 

here a point should be noted. if a person dies uttering gods name or remembering him he is liberated from material bondage , not sent to heavens.

in hinduism heaven is merely a starting concept and not the end of spirituality as with christians.it is merely a better and more pleasurable state of existence.

 

the other day i was having a talk with an learned indian sadhu regaurding such topics. the question arose how can a sinfull person get liberated just by uttering lords name before death , when he did no pious or spiritual things all his life ?!!! and if liberation is actually so easy why should the yogis toil so hard?

 

the sadhu informed me of two kinds of muktis.the first one is direct liberation in this very birth.when such a thing happens the brahmarandhra in the top of the skull bursts open and the soul leaves the body.this is nirvana or moksha.

 

the second type of mukti deals with krama-mukti or gradual mukti.most people get this krama mukti. as they have alredy started sadhana they slowly rise to higher and higher levels but might not get direct liberation in this very birth. such noble souls continue their sadhana the next birth and ultimately attain mukti.

 

in a case where such a degraded human utters lords name it should be understood that he is initiated into the process of krama mukti. his next birth would be a better one and of less bondage and more devotional than the previous one.in this sense he is liberated from his previous sinfull life . this would continue till he attains final moksh.

 

another thought might come up . what happens when a highly spiritual person with lots of pious activities and sadhana dies without thinking of god? does he get no liberation.

 

the answer is that the net quality of sadhana and spiritual progress is the main determining factor for liberation. what really matters is the level of conciousness thats there at the time of leaving the body .one might not be exclusively thinking of god but if his conciousness is suficiently purified he is entitled to mukti. this mukti would be krama mukti.

 

similarly a high spiritually advanced person would obviously be entitled to liberation even though he is not conciously thinking of god while dying in middle of sleep. the purity of thought and degree of realization that he have attained would be the key determining factors.obviously he wouldnt turn a ghost.he would be entitled to his karma.

 

another thing that i would like to say is that dreaming of god are no measure to spiritual advancement. although its true that god generally appears to highly fortunate devotees in dreams but in many cases such dreams turn out to be self induced psycological phenomenon where your subconcious thoughts and desires surface up in sleep.

 

mere dreaming of god every day wont help to purify a mind.and without purification there can be no self realization at all.

[Amlesh]

 

" if you dont teach a parrot harinaam at its young age it shall never learn to speak harinaam later when it grows old. and when the cat catches it can never utter hari's name.instead it would resort to screaching. "

 

 

but taking the Lord's name at pralaya time has much more than that much.

[sambya]

 

but taking the Lord's name at pralaya time has much more than that much.

 

i couldnt get you .

 

in pralaya also the same karmic laws would be applicable because nothing is actually 'destroyed' in pralay. the cosmos enters from a manifested into an unmanifested state. all the jivas and matter continue in its unmanifested form only to come out in the next kalpa.

 

a very nice example was coined by vivekananda...............

 

when we say 'cup' we are referring to a particular object with a distinct name and shape thats crucial for its identity. thus by the mention of the word 'cup' there arises in our mind a thought or bhava. now what happens if i manage to destroy all the cups existing on this earth ? still its bhav and idea would remain in the conciousness of mankind.and out of this bhav someone in future would again make a cup. so inspite of the cup's totall destruction it is never nonexistent. same thing happens with pralay.all things get destroyed but the bhav lingers on in the universal conciuosness (god ) . although this is a crude example.

[coolrishu]

sambya, i think that mere, by daydreaming of "whom" we can purify ourselves and can attain that.........

becoz the one, whoes daydreaming is enough is the ONE

[sambya]

 

sambya, i think that mere, by daydreaming of "whom" we can purify ourselves and can attain that.........

becoz the one, whoes daydreaming is enough is the ONE

 

the main point is to achieve such a state of conciousness where the mind would constantly think of god like the flow of oil. its also true that even thinking once of god is sufficient to purify oneself. but for that there should be 100 % belief in the gods name . again , that is where we all lack.

 

theres is a beautiful story which goe like this.............

 

' once parvati asked shiva why does the innumerable people who bathes regularly in ganga does not get liberation as stated in shastras. to this shiva replied that its beacuase they dont have firm belief in shastric sayings.then the couple went on to test the mortals. assuming the form of a crtically diseased man and his wife both went to a bathing ghat near ganga . then parvati started to cry and plead for help saying that only a perfectly sinless person has the power to cure her husband.hearing this all the brahmins and others returning after ganga baths bowed their heads in shame and went away .none of them thought of himself as sinless. then one murderer was passing by the scene and after inquiring to the lady(parvati) learnt that one perfectly sinless man is needed to cure her husband .hearing this he instantly left and took a dip in ganga and came back to them.seeing this parvati asked , "why did you not respond immideately and have come back now?" to this the murderer replied , " o lady , i was the most fallen of souls and so was in no position to help your husband,but now that ive taken a plunge in ganga im cleared of all sins. now your husband will be easily cured. '

 

this belief is essential to attain mukti. if we sincerely believe without self deception , that one single utterence of lords name can free us , we shalll be freed immideately.

[theist]

 

I wish I also had NDE. But I do not want to try to have that experience.

 

Haha, I hear that Avinash. Well we just have to be patient and we will go through the real thing soon enough just as we have so many times before.

[Amlesh]

 

i couldnt get you .

 

in pralaya also the same karmic laws would be applicable because nothing is actually 'destroyed' in pralay. the cosmos enters from a manifested into an unmanifested state. all the jivas and matter continue in its unmanifested form only to come out in the next kalpa.

 

I was not mentioning anything physical.

 

Material nature is by Nature ever Mutable... I was referring to that which is CHANGELESS.

 

 

a very nice example was coined by vivekananda...............

 

when we say 'cup' we are referring to a particular object with a distinct name and shape thats crucial for its identity. thus by the mention of the word 'cup' there arises in our mind a thought or bhava. now what happens if i manage to destroy all the cups existing on this earth ? still its bhav and idea would remain in the conciousness of mankind.and out of this bhav someone in future would again make a cup. so inspite of the cup's totall destruction it is never nonexistent. same thing happens with pralay.all things get destroyed but the bhav lingers on in the universal conciuosness (god ) . although this is a crude example.

 

Agreed but not totally.

 

That has been explained in Sri Bhasya. Sri Ramanuja left no stone unturned in that regard.

 

Anyways; it was not that which I wanted to hint. It was about Training the Parrot to say Harinam from birth and be more prawn to utter His name at Death.

Well buddy, that might be one of the reason.

But Mukti is never attainable by that means... when someone is totally freed from any mechanical process of attaining Freedom, then only the Gate of Freedom is opened.

Those who are too much attached with their Mechanised Process, School of Thought and any other Regulative Principles, then they are still in their initial stage of Self Realisation; but it is a necessary initial phase.

[sambya]

 

But Mukti is never attainable by that means... when someone is totally freed from any mechanical process of attaining Freedom, then only the Gate of Freedom is opened.

Those who are too much attached with their Mechanised Process, School of Thought and any other Regulative Principles, then they are still in their initial stage of Self Realisation; but it is a necessary initial phase.

 

absolutely . well said. all these regulative principles are all self purificatory process that eventually leads to mukti. one has to rise above the three gunas to meet the self.even sattva guna cannot liberate a person , although it does help in nearing mukti. ill give one story for that.............

 

" three robbers caught a passerby in a forest and after tying him robbed him of his belongings. then the first robber said " now that we are done lets chop his head off" . the second robber said , "no need . let him lie here all tied up , the tigers would eventually find him " . so saying the three robbers went off. but after an hour the third robber came back and released him from the bondage and told him ," i hope you are not hurt , come ill show you the way to village " .thus saying they began walking towards the village. when they came at the edge of the forest the third robber turned to leave . then the man said " hey i cant leave you like that .you saved my life ,come to my village." then the robber replied ," sorry friend i dont have the power to go beyond this forest ,for if i do police would catch me"

 

the first robber was tamo gun -the one that destroys.

the second wa rajo gun - the one that causes bondage

the third was sattva guna - the one that liberates.

but even this sattva guna canot reach god. he is trigunatit. a sadhak has to transcend all these gunas and ordinary rituals before he can come to the point of final realisation. '

 

................................PARABLE OF RAMAKRISHNA

[sambya]

 

Agreed but not totally.

 

That has been explained in Sri Bhasya. Sri Ramanuja left no stone unturned in that regard.

 

wats your point of difference ?