What does it really mean to be situated in Gods Kingdom and where is our true form?

[Sarva gattah]

What does it really mean to be situated in Gods Kingdom and what is, or where is our true eternal bodily form and identity?

 

Nothing is lost or gained in Goloka Vrndavana or the perpetual Kingdom of God because everything is always fully perfect in the mood of loving selfless devotional relationships with Krishna. In actual fact,we are always there but some of us are 'thinking' or 'dreaming we are not there but live in a world made up of our own imagination.

The fact is, our real bodily form is eternally with Krishna in Goloka but sometimes, due to our ability to choose and practise free will, our memory and 'awareness' of who we really are becomes forgotten or covered by our own self centred desires to please ourselves and not Krishna.

So leaving Goloka is NOT a physical fall down, it is a sub-conscious one. Everything in Krsnaloka is set eternally in the present, meaning Gods eternal blissful Kingdom has no experience or concept of past or future.

So what’s there is forever there. This means every living entity is represented there by the bodily form they eternally are.

This eternal presents that has no beginning or end in Goloka, is a place of selfless loving devotion. This is Gods or Krishna’s eternal Kingdom where the living entities awareness is meant to always be however, some choose to forget and enter another world called the material creation or mahat-tattva.

Only found in Goloka is who we really are, everlastingly serving Krsna and his devotees and expansions in a blissful body that ultimately out shines all the dream material identities our forgetful mind has created over so many life times.

It is therefore; only in Goloka we will find that our perpetual devotional bodily form, endlessly exists living out the living entities 'full potential originality as a nitya siddha embodied devotee of Krsna or Vishnu'.

This means ALL living entities or jiva sparks, have a Svarupa body that is eternally unchangeable, eternally youthful, eternally original and eternal a person with bodily form sat, chit, ananda, VIGRAHA.

If there is no past or future and only the present, then we are all in a perpetual state of originality there. Remember, the living entity leaves Goloka not as ones eternal Svarupa body, but via their sub-conscious dream, thought, mistaken desires and imagination.

 

So, just as ones material body never changes while one is dreaming they are a King, ones ‘Svarupa’ body never changes while one is living out their self centred dreams in the material world.

We must remember that our nitya-siddha-Svarupa body is forever locked and secured perpetually within the ‘eternal present, which is an eternal state of originality’ that has no past and future.

This means when one finishes their dreams within the material world and again become ‘aware’ of their full potential ‘Svarupa body, it is like waking up from a dream and finding themselves as the body they always were and always have been.

Srila Prabhupada explains it this way –“There is nothing to be gained in Goloka, only regained”

[Janardan]

How can we leave a place of such exquisite loveliness? Once we go to Goloka we do not leave. We can not leave.( out of everlasting forever happiness and bliss) I do not see how we were there in the first place.

[Sarva gattah]

 

How can we leave a place of such exquisite loveliness? Once we go to Goloka we do not leave. We can not leave.( out of everlasting forever happiness and bliss) I do not see how we were there in the first place.

 

By Bhakta Eric Johanson

We hope you will have found this helpful.

Devotee: Srila Prabhupada, you say in your books so many times that somehow or other we have fallen into this material world due to our enviousness or our independence.

Srila Prabhupada: Many. There are many reasons.

Devotee: I can't seem to get a grasp on this at all. If we, in our original constitutional position as part and parcel of Krishna--and in that position, that, original position of full knowledge and full bliss--and being in our eternal nature . . . Now I have some experience of how strong this material energy is and how Maya works, somewhat. But, if I had known this and had this full knowledge, then I would have had this knowledge of how Maya works and . . . How I might fall?

Srila Prabhupada: You read the life of Jaya, Vijaya, Hiranyakasipu, Hiranyaksa? They were Krishna's Doorkeepers. How they fell down? Did you read it? Did you read the life of Hiranyakasipu or Hiranyaksa?

Devotee: Yes, Srila Prabhupada.

Srila Prabhupada: So how they did fall? They are from Vaikuntha. They are Krishna's personal associates, keeping . . . the Doorkeepers. How did they fell down? Anyway, there is chance of falling down at any moment.

Devotee: Well, in His family, they wanted to enjoy the material world?

Srila Prabhupada: Whatever it may be, the falldown is there. So, because we are living entities, we are not as powerful as Krishna. Therefore, we may fall down from Vaikuntha at any moment. Iccha-dvesa samutthena sarge yanti parantapa. Find out this verse. (emphasis added)

Pusta Krishna Swami: iccha-dvesa samutthena dvandva-mohena bharata sarva-bhutani sammoham sarge yanti parantapa: "O scion of Bharata, O conqueror of the foe, all living entities are born into delusion, overcome by the dualities of desire and hate."

Srila Prabhupada: Purport?

Pusta Krishna Swami: "The real constitutional position of the living entity is that of subordination to the Supreme Lord, Who is pure knowledge. When one is deluded into separation from this pure knowledge, he becomes controlled by illusory energy and cannot understand the Supreme Personality of Godhead. The illusory energy is manifested in the duality of desire and hate. Due to desire and hate, the ignorant person wants to become one with the Supreme Lord and envies Krishna as the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Pure devotees, who are not so deluded or contaminated by desire and hate, can understand that Lord Sri Krishna appears by His internal potencies. But those who are deluded by duality and nescience think that the Supreme Personality of Godhead is created by material energies. This is their misfortune. Such deluded persons symptomatically dwell in dualities of dishonor and honor, misery and happiness, woman and man, good and bad, pleasure and pain, etc., thinking 'This is my wife, this is my house; I am the master of this house, I am the husband of this wife.' These are the dualities of delusion. Those who are so deluded by dualities are completely foolish and cannot understand the Supreme Personality of Godhead."

Srila Prabhupada: So, even in the Vaikuntha, if I desire that--"Why shall I serve Krishna? Why not become Krishna?"--I immediately fall down. That is natural. A servant is serving the master, (but) sometimes he may think that, "If I could become the master." They are thinking like that; they are trying to become God. That is delusion. You cannot become God. That is not possible. But he's wrongly thinking. (emphases added)

Vipina Purandara prabhu: Why doesn't Krishna protect us from that desire?

Srila Prabhupada: He's protecting. He says, "You rascal, don't desire. Surrender unto Me." But you are rascal; you do not do this.

Vipina Purandara prabhu: Why doesn't He save me from thinking like that?

Srila Prabhupada: That means you lose your independence.

Vipina Purandara: And no love.

Srila Prabhupada: That is force . . . In Bengali it is said, "If you catch one girl or boy, 'You love me, you love me, you love me.' " Is it love? "You love me, otherwise I will kill you!" Is that love? So Krishna does not want to become a lover like that, on the point of revolver--"You love me, otherwise I shall kill you!" That is not love; that is threatening. Love is reciprocal, voluntary, good exchange of feeling. Then there is love. Not by force; that is rape. . . Why one is called lover, another is called rape?

Vipina Purandara prabhu: But isn't it by force anyway? If we don't love Krishna, we suffer.

Srila Prabhupada: That is your business. You'll suffer. But that Krishna does not force you. He says the real, "You love me, you'll be happy. If you don't love, you suffer." But that is your business.

Vipina Purandara prabhu: So, what is the choice?

Srila Prabhupada: Choice is yours. If you are rascal, you don't make the choice, the best choice. You suffer. The rascals, they suffer. And intelligent men, they do not suffer. If you are intelligent, then Krishna says that, "You surrender to Me." Uou surrender, then you are intelligent. If you are rascal, then you reject and you suffer. When a father says to his rascal son, "My dear son, you just hear me, do like this, you'll be happy." If he does not do it, he'll suffer. There is no other alternative.

Guest: Srila Srila Prabhupada, why is the material world made on the level of a jailhouse? It's made on the level of a jailhouse, that, I've been told, the attitude of a jail, instead of the attitude . . .

Srila Prabhupada: Yes, because there will be so many criminals. Therefore, government has to construct a jailhouse. It is not government's desire. It is expensive, unnecessary. But because there are rascals who will become criminal, the government has jailhouse. So one who wants to remain independent of Krishna, for them there is material world, "All right, you remain here."

Vipina Purandara prabhu: We also say that Krishna is fulfilling the desires of every living entity. So if we want to enjoy independent of Krishna, why doesn't He let us really enjoy independent of Him?

Srila Prabhupada: That is not possible. That is Maya; it is called (Maya). You are not enjoyer, you are servant. Because you are willing to become enjoyer, you suffer, that's all. You are not enjoyer.

Vipina Purandara prabhu: Then He's not fulfilling the desire.

Srila Prabhupada: No, you wanted to enjoy--enjoy at your risk. Sometimes you'll become the king of heaven, and sometimes you become the germs in the stool.

Vipina Purandara prabhu: Hmmm, enjoy at your risk.

Srila Prabhupada: Yes.

Vipina Purandara prabhu: Instead of under His protection, you enjoy at your risk.

Srila Prabhupada: Therefore He advises, "Rascal, you give up all this enjoying spirit. You just surrender to Me. You'll be happy." But we don't accept it. Therefore, sometimes we are in the heavenly kingdom, sometimes as a worm in the stool. That is going on. That is your risk. Excerpt from an Evening Darsana on July 8, 1976 in Washington, D.C.

His Divine Grace Srila Prabhupada, the shaktyavesh-avatar of bhakti-shakti and the current or most recent Sampradaya Acharya in our line of the parampara, is answering the origination question . He is making a very self-evident, forceful presentation:

“So, even in the Vaikuntha, if I desire that--"Why shall I serve Krishna? Why not become Krishna?"--I immediately fall down.”

“ . . . we may fall down from Vaikuntha at any moment.”

[Sarva gattah]

 

 

What does the word "MARGINAL" mean when referring to the living enttity"

 

 

Srila Prabhupada - “The living entity is called marginal energy. But when the falldown has taken place for the conditioned soul is very difficult to ascertain. Therefore, two classes are designated: eternally liberated (NITYA-SIDDHA) and eternally conditioned (NITYA-BADDHA). But for arguments sake, a living entity being marginal energy, he can't be eternally conditioned. The time is so unlimited that the conditioned souls appear to be eternally so, but from the philosophical view he cannot be eternally conditioned. Letter Srila Prabhupada sent to Upendra prabhu

Srila Prabhupada - "The Supreme Lord has TWO energies, material and spiritual. The living entities are marginal energy. As marginal energy, a person may be under the control of the material energy (Maha-maya) or the spiritual energy (Yoga- maya). SB 3.23.10 pp.

Srila Prabhupada - "Because the living being can appear either in matter or in spirit, the jiva is called the marginal potency" CC Adi 5.41 pp.

Srila Prabhupada - "The living entity (jiva-atma) takes different positions - sometimes he merges into the dark material nature and identifies himself with matter, and sometimes he identifies himself with the superior spiritual nature. THEREFORE, he is called the Lords marginal energy. " BG 8.3 pp.

Srila Prabhupada - "The fact is that individual living entities are eternally part and parcel of the Supreme Lord, and both of them are very intimately related as friends. But the living entity has the tendency to reject the sanctions of the Supreme Lord and act independently in an attempt to dominate the supreme nature, and BECAUSE HE HAS THIS TENDENCY; he is called the marginal energy of the Supreme Lord. " BG 13.23 pp.

In the above verses, Srila Prabhupada explains that marginal energy means the TENDENCY of the living entity to reject the sanction of the Lord and act independently.

So, marginal energy, or tatastha-shakti, is NOT a particular place or area in outer space where souls drop from, but it denotes the NATURE of the jiva-soul.

It refers to a living entity with the nature of independently choosing between the Lord's two energies. Therefore, the living entities DO NOT expand from the marginal energy, but their natures are called marginal. This marginal energy (jiva-soul) is an expansion of Lord Krishna, who is the origin of the living entities.

Srila Prabhupada - "If marginal energy (the living entity with its independent nature) chooses to be in contact with the external energy of the Lord, it still remains marginal. (See CC Adi 2.96)

If the marginal living entity chooses to go back to the internal energy (the spiritual world), it still keeps his marginal independence. It does not change his nature into internal energy and becomes Vishnu-tattva. Although the living entities are equal in quality to the internal potency of Krishna (which is spiritual), they nevertheless keep their marginal independence. Jiva-tattva (the marginal energy) does not turn into Vishnu-tattva (the internal energy), otherwise the living entity would turn into God Himself as in Mayavadi philosophy.

Marginal energy can be situated either in the external or internal energy of the Lord and according to the living beings free will and contact with either the material or spiritual energies, the living being is situated in proportionally higher or lower levels of existence. If marginal energy can freely choose to be situated in either external or internal energy, then marginal energy (because of his free will) can also choose to leave either external or internal energy."

Here are excerpts from two letters the Srila Prabhupada sent to Upendra prabhu regarding our 'original position'. One letter is from 1968 and one from 1969.

Srila Prabhupada - "Regarding your question, in one sense both you and Mahapurusa are right. The fact is that after the dissolution of the Universe the living entities remain in slumber within Maha Visnu, and again when the creation takes place they are impregnated in their original position and they come out in different species of life. By gradual evolutionary process, when they come to the human form there is good chance of getting out of the repeated birth and death, and one can enter into the Spiritual Realm. But if one loses this chance he is again put into the cycle of birth and death. The conditioned souls are always within the Maha Visnu Form, whereas the liberated souls in Vaikuntha, they are engaged in the service of the Lord. Constitutionally every living entity, even if he is in the Vaikuntha Loka, has chance of falling down”.

Srila Prabhupada - "Therefore the living entity is called marginal energy. But when the falldown has taken place for the conditioned soul is very difficult to ascertain. Therefore two classes are designated: eternally liberated and eternally conditioned. But for arguments sake, a living entity being marginal energy, he can't be eternally conditioned. The Time is so unlimited that the conditioned souls appear to be eternally so, but from the philosophical view he cannot be eternally conditioned. Since we cannot trace out when we have become conditioned, there is no use of arguing on this point. Better to take care first how we can get rid of this conditional existence; as much as a patient should take care for treating his disease more, and less waste his time in finding out the cause of his disease".

Please offer my blessings to the others. I hope this will meet you in good health."

A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

[Sarva gattah]

 

 

So leaving Goloka is NOT a physical fall down in our nitya siddha body, it is a sub-conscious one where we manifest as our nitya baddha projected sub-conscious state that is compared to a dream state of being. which is the lower self of radiated by the living ehtity when they forget their perpetual nitya siddha Krsn conscious bodily form.

 

 

The fact is, our real bodily form is eternally with Krishna in Goloka, but sometimes, due to our ability to choose and practise free will, our memory and 'awareness' of who we really are, becomes forgotten or covered by our own self centred desires to please ourselves and not Krishna.

So leaving Goloka is NOT a physical fall down in our nitya siddha body, it is a sub-conscious one where we manifest as our nitya baddha projected sub-conscious state that is compared to a dream state of being. which is the lower self of radiated by the living ehtity when they forget their perpetual nitya siddha Krsn conscious bodily form.

 

Everything in Krsnaloka is set eternally in the present, meaning Gods eternal blissful Kingdom has no experience or concept of past or future. So what’s there is forever there. This means every living entity is represented there by the bodily form they eternally are.

This eternal presents that has no beginning or end in Goloka, is a place of selfless loving devotion. This is Gods or Krishna’s eternal Kingdom where the living entities awareness is meant to always be seeing Krishna in one of the many devotional lilas however, there are some who choose to forget Krishna, his Kingdom, as well as the bodily identity one has there and enter another world called the material creation or mahat-tattva.

Only found in Goloka is who we really are, everlastingly serving Krsna and his devotees and expansions in a blissful body that ultimately out shines all the dream material identities our forgetful mind has created over so many life times.

It is therefore; only in Goloka we will find that our perpetual devotional bodily form, endlessly exists living out the living entities 'full potential originality as a nitya siddha embodied devotee of Krsna or Vishnu'.

This means ALL living entities or jiva sparks, have a Svarupa body that is eternally unchangeable, eternally youthful, eternally original and eternal a person with bodily form sat, chit, ananda, VIGRAHA.

If there is no past or future and only the present, then we are all in a perpetual state of originality there. Remember, the living entity leaves Goloka not as ones eternal Svarupa body, but via their sub-conscious dream, thought, mistaken desires and imagination.

So, just as ones material body never changes while one is dreaming they are a King, ones ‘Svarupa’ body never changes while one is living out their self centred dreams in the material world.

We must remember that our nitya-siddha-Svarupa body is forever locked and secured perpetually within the ‘eternal present, which is an eternal state of originality’ that has no past and future.

This means when one finishes their dreams within the material world and again become ‘aware’ of their full potential ‘Svarupa body, it is like waking up from a dream and finding themselves as the body they always were and always have been.

Srila Prabhupada explains it this way –“There is nothing to be gained in Goloka, only regained”

[gauragopala dasa]

The fact is, our real bodily form is eternally with Krishna in Goloka, but sometimes, due to our ability to choose and practise free will, we simply make the wrong choice and ‘dream’ of an existence without Krishna.

In this way, our memory and 'awareness' of who we really are, becomes forgotten or covered by our own self centred desires to please ourselves in our imaginary material ethereal and biological bodies and no longer recognise Krishna as our eternal master from the correct viewpoint of our permanent and always existing Spiritual body.

What does it really mean to be situated in Gods Kingdom and what is, or where is our true eternal bodily form and identity?

Nothing is lost or gained in Goloka Vrndavana or the perpetual Kingdom of God because everything is always fully perfect in the mood of loving selfless devotional relationships with Krishna. In actual fact, we are always there but some of us are 'thinking' or 'dreaming we are not there but live in a world made up of our own imagination.

The fact is, our real bodily form is eternally with Krishna in Goloka but sometimes, due to our ability to choose and practise free will, our memory and 'awareness' of who we really are becomes forgotten or covered by our own self centred desires to please ourselves and not Krishna.

So leaving Goloka is NOT a physical fall down, it is a sub-conscious one. Everything in Krsnaloka is set eternally in the present, meaning Gods eternal blissful Kingdom has no experience or concept of past or future.

So what’s there is forever there. This means every living entity is represented there by the bodily form they eternally are.

This eternal presents that has no beginning or end in Goloka, is a place of selfless loving devotion. This is Gods or Krishna’s eternal Kingdom where the living entities awareness is meant to always be however, some choose to forget and enter another world called the material creation or mahat-tattva.

Only found in Goloka is who we really are, everlastingly serving Krsna and his devotees and expansions in a blissful body that ultimately out shines all the dream material identities our forgetful mind has created over so many life times.

It is therefore; only in Goloka we will find that our perpetual devotional bodily form, endlessly exists living out the living entities 'full potential originality as a nitya siddha embodied devotee of Krsna or Vishnu'.

This means ALL living entities or jiva sparks, have an Svarupa body that is eternally unchangeable, eternally youthful, eternally original and eternal a person with bodily form sat, chit, ananda, VIGRAHA.

If there is no past or future and only the present, then we are all in a perpetual state of originality there. Remember, the living entity leaves Goloka not as ones eternal Svarupa body, but via their sub-conscious dream, thought, mistaken desires and imagination.

So, just as ones material body never changes while one is dreaming they are a King, ones ‘Svarupa’ body never changes while one is living out their self centred dreams in the material world.

We must remember that our nitya-siddha-Svarupa body is forever locked and secured perpetually within the ‘eternal present, which is an eternal state of originality’ that has no past and future.

This means when one finishes their dreams within the material world and again become ‘aware’ of their full potential ‘Svarupa body, it is like waking up from a dream and finding themselves as the body they always were and always have been.

Srila Prabhupada explains it this way –“There is nothing to be gained in Goloka, only regained”

How can we leave a place of such exquisite loveliness? Once we go to Goloka we do not leave. We cannot leave. (Out of everlasting forever happiness and bliss) I do not see how we were there in the first place.

Devotee: Srila Prabhupada, you say in your books so many times that somehow or other we have fallen into this material world due to our enviousness or our independence.

Srila Prabhupada: Many. There are many reasons.

Devotee: I can't seem to get a grasp on this at all. If we, in our original constitutional position as part and parcel of Krishna--and in that position, that, original position of full knowledge and full bliss--and being in our eternal nature . . . Now I have some experience of how strong this material energy is and how Maya works, somewhat. But, if I had known this and had this full knowledge, then I would have had this knowledge of how Maya works and . . . How I might fall?

Srila Prabhupada: You read the life of Jaya, Vijaya, Hiranyakasipu, Hiranyaksa? They were Krishna's Doorkeepers. How they fell down? Did you read it? Did you read the life of Hiranyakasipu or Hiranyaksa?

Devotee: Yes, Srila Prabhupada.

Srila Prabhupada: So how they did fall? They are from Vaikuntha. They are Krishna's personal associates, keeping . . . the Doorkeepers. How did they fell down? Anyway, there is chance of falling down at any moment.

Devotee: Well, in His family, they wanted to enjoy the material world?

Srila Prabhupada: Whatever it may be, the falldown is there. So, because we are living entities, we are not as powerful as Krishna. Therefore, we may fall down from Vaikuntha at any moment. Iccha-dvesa samutthena sarge yanti parantapa. Find out this verse

Pusta Krishna Swami: iccha-dvesa samutthena dvandva-mohena bharata sarva-bhutani sammoham sarge yanti parantapa: "O scion of Bharata, O conqueror of the foe, all living entities are born into delusion, overcome by the dualities of desire and hate."

Srila Prabhupada: Purport?

Pusta Krishna Swami: "The real constitutional position of the living entity is that of subordination to the Supreme Lord, Who is pure knowledge. When one is deluded into separation from this pure knowledge, he becomes controlled by illusory energy and cannot understand the Supreme Personality of Godhead. The illusory energy is manifested in the duality of desire and hate. Due to desire and hate, the ignorant person wants to become one with the Supreme Lord and envies Krishna as the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Pure devotees, who are not so deluded or contaminated by desire and hate, can understand that Lord Sri Krishna appears by His internal potencies. But those who are deluded by duality and nescience think that the Supreme Personality of Godhead is created by material energies. This is their misfortune. Such deluded persons symptomatically dwell in dualities of dishonor and honor, misery and happiness, woman and man, good and bad, pleasure and pain, etc., thinking 'This is my wife, this is my house; I am the master of this house, I am the husband of this wife.' These are the dualities of delusion. Those who are so deluded by dualities are completely foolish and cannot understand the Supreme Personality of Godhead."

Srila Prabhupada: So, even in the Vaikuntha, if I desire that--"Why shall I serve Krishna? Why not become Krishna?"--I immediately fall down. That is natural. A servant is serving the master, (but) sometimes he may think that, "If I could become the master." They are thinking like that; they are trying to become God. That is delusion. You cannot become God. That is not possible. But he's wrongly thinking. (Emphases added)

Vipina Purandara prabhu: Why doesn't Krishna protect us from that desire?

Srila Prabhupada: He's protecting. He says, "You rascal, don't desire. Surrender unto Me." But you are rascal; you do not do this.

Vipina Purandara prabhu: Why doesn't He save me from thinking like that?

Srila Prabhupada: That means you lose your independence.

Vipina Purandara: And no love.

Srila Prabhupada: That is force . . . In Bengali it is said, "If you catch one girl or boy, 'You love me, you love me, you love me.' " Is it love? "You love me, otherwise I will kill you!" Is that love? So Krishna does not want to become a lover like that, on the point of revolver--"You love me, otherwise I shall kill you!" That is not love; that is threatening. Love is reciprocal, voluntary, good exchange of feeling. Then there is love. Not by force; that is rape. . . Why one is called lover, another is called rape?

Vipina Purandara prabhu: But isn't it by force anyway? If we don't love Krishna, we suffer.

Srila Prabhupada: That is your business. You'll suffer. But that Krishna does not force you. He says the real, "You love me, you'll be happy. If you don't love, you suffer." But that is your business.

Vipina Purandara prabhu: So, what is the choice?

Srila Prabhupada: Choice is yours. If you are rascal, you don't make the choice, the best choice. You suffer. The rascals, they suffer. And intelligent men, they do not suffer. If you are intelligent, then Krishna says that, "You surrender to Me." Uou surrender, then you are intelligent. If you are rascal, then you reject and you suffer. When a father says to his rascal son, "My dear son, you just hear me, do like this, you'll be happy." If he does not do it, he'll suffer. There is no other alternative.

Guest: Srila Srila Prabhupada, why is the material world made on the level of a jailhouse? It's made on the level of a jailhouse, that, I've been told, the attitude of a jail, instead of the attitude . . .

Srila Prabhupada: Yes, because there will be so many criminals. Therefore, government has to construct a jailhouse. It is not government's desire. It is expensive, unnecessary. But because there are rascals who will become criminal, the government has jailhouse. So one who wants to remain independent of Krishna, for them there is material world, "All right, you remain here."

Vipina Purandara prabhu: We also say that Krishna is fulfilling the desires of every living entity. So if we want to enjoy independent of Krishna, why doesn't He let us really enjoy independent of Him?

Srila Prabhupada: That is not possible. That is Maya; it is called (Maya). You are not enjoyer, you are servant. Because you are willing to become enjoyer, you suffer, that's all. You are not enjoyer.

Vipina Purandara prabhu: Then He's not fulfilling the desire.

Srila Prabhupada: No, you wanted to enjoy--enjoy at your risk. Sometimes you'll become the king of heaven, and sometimes you become the germs in the stool.

Vipina Purandara prabhu: Hmmm, enjoy at your risk.

Srila Prabhupada: Yes.

Vipina Purandara prabhu: Instead of under His protection, you enjoy at your risk.

Srila Prabhupada: Therefore He advises, "Rascal, you give up all this enjoying spirit. You just surrender to Me. You'll be happy." But we don't accept it. Therefore, sometimes we are in the heavenly kingdom, sometimes as a worm in the stool. That is going on. That is your risk. Excerpt from an Evening Darsana on July 8, 1976 in Washington, D.C.

His Divine Grace Srila Prabhupada, the shaktyavesh-avatar of bhakti-shakti and the current or most recent Sampradaya Acharya in our line of the parampara, is answering the origination question . He is making a very self-evident, forceful presentation:

“So, even in the Vaikuntha, if I desire that--"Why shall I serve Krishna? Why not become Krishna?"--I immediately fall down.”

“ . . . we may fall down from Vaikuntha at any moment.”

So leaving Goloka is NOT a physical fall down in our nitya siddha body, it is a sub-conscious one where we manifest as our nitya baddha projected sub-conscious state that is compared to a dream state of being, which is the lower self of ones individuality and personality.

This artificial dreaming conscious state is then radiated, televised and projected by the living entity as their dream intensifies by desiring to experience existence on their own terms, governed by desires centred around the secondary self that has completely forgotten the perpetual nitya siddha Krsna conscious bodily form they really are eternally.

The fact is, our real bodily form is eternally with Krishna in Goloka, but sometimes, due to our ability to choose and practise free will, we simply make the wrong choice and ‘dream’ of an existence without Krishna. In this way, our memory and 'awareness' of who we really are, becomes forgotten or covered by our own self centred desires to please ourselves in our imaginary material ethereal and biological bodies and no longer recognise Krishna as our eternal master from the correct viewpoint of our permanent and always existing Spiritual body.

So leaving Goloka is NOT a physical fall down in our nitya siddha body, it is a sub-conscious one where we manifest as our nitya baddha projected sub-conscious state that is compared to a dream state of being. which is the lower self of radiated by the living entity when they forget their perpetual nitya siddha Krishna conscious bodily form.

Everything in Krsnaloka is set eternally in the present, meaning Gods eternal blissful Kingdom has no experience or concept of past or future. So what’s there is forever there. This means every living entity is represented there by the bodily form they eternally are.

This eternal presents that has no beginning or end in Goloka, is a place of selfless loving devotion. This is Gods or Krishna’s eternal Kingdom where the living entities awareness is meant to always be seeing Krishna in one of the many devotional lilas however, there are some who choose to forget Krishna, his Kingdom, as well as the bodily identity one has there and enter another world called the material creation or mahat-tattva.

Only found in Goloka is who we really are, everlastingly serving Krsna and his devotees and expansions in a blissful body that ultimately out shines all the dream material identities our forgetful mind has created over so many life times.

It is therefore; only in Goloka we will find that our perpetual devotional bodily form, endlessly exists living out the living entities 'full potential originality as a nitya siddha embodied devotee of Krsna or Vishnu'.

This means ALL living entities or jiva sparks, have a Svarupa body that is eternally unchangeable, eternally youthful, eternally original and eternal a person with bodily form sat, chit, ananda, VIGRAHA.

If there is no past or future and only the present, then we are all in a perpetual state of originality there. Remember, the living entity leaves Goloka not as ones eternal Svarupa body, but via their sub-conscious dream, thought, mistaken desires and imagination.

So, just as ones material body never changes while one is dreaming they are a King, ones ‘Svarupa’ body never changes while one is living out their self centred dreams in the material world.

We must remember that our nitya-siddha-Svarupa body is forever locked and secured perpetually within the ‘eternal present, which is an eternal state of originality’ that has no past and future.

This means when one finishes their dreams within the material world and again become ‘aware’ of their full potential ‘Svarupa body, it is like waking up from a dream and finding themselves as the body they always were and always have been.

Srila Prabhupada explains it this way –“There is nothing to be gained in Goloka, only regained”

What does the word "MARGINAL" mean when referring to the living enttity"

Srila Prabhupada - “The living entity is called marginal energy. But when the falldown has taken place for the conditioned soul is very difficult to ascertain. Therefore, two classes are designated: eternally liberated (NITYA-SIDDHA) and eternally conditioned (NITYA-BADDHA). But for arguments sake, a living entity being marginal energy, he can't be eternally conditioned. The time is so unlimited that the conditioned souls appear to be eternally so, but from the philosophical view he cannot be eternally conditioned. Letter Srila Prabhupada sent to Upendra prabhu

Srila Prabhupada - "The Supreme Lord has TWO energies, material and spiritual. The living entities are marginal energy. As marginal energy, a person may be under the control of the material energy (Maha-maya) or the spiritual energy (Yoga- maya). SB 3.23.10 pp.

Srila Prabhupada - "Because the living being can appear either in matter or in spirit, the jiva is called the marginal potency" CC Adi 5.41 pp.

Srila Prabhupada - "The living entity (jiva-atma) takes different positions - sometimes he merges into the dark material nature and identifies himself with matter, and sometimes he identifies himself with the superior spiritual nature. THEREFORE, he is called the Lords marginal energy. " BG 8.3 pp.

Srila Prabhupada - "The fact is that individual living entities are eternally part and parcel of the Supreme Lord, and both of them are very intimately related as friends. But the living entity has the tendency to reject the sanctions of the Supreme Lord and act independently in an attempt to dominate the supreme nature, and BECAUSE HE HAS THIS TENDENCY; he is called the marginal energy of the Supreme Lord. " BG 13.23 pp.

In the above verses, Srila Prabhupada explains that marginal energy means the TENDENCY of the living entity to reject the sanction of the Lord and act independently.

So, marginal energy, or tatastha-shakti, is NOT a particular place or area in outer space where souls drop from, but it denotes the NATURE of the jiva-soul.

It refers to a living entity with the nature of independently choosing between the Lord's two energies. Therefore, the living entities DO NOT expand from the marginal energy, but their natures are called marginal. This marginal energy (jiva-soul) is an expansion of Lord Krishna, who is the origin of the living entities.

Srila Prabhupada - "If marginal energy (the living entity with its independent nature) chooses to be in contact with the external energy of the Lord, it still remains marginal. (See CC Adi 2.96)

If the marginal living entity chooses to go back to the internal energy (the spiritual world), it still keeps his marginal independence. It does not change his nature into internal energy and becomes Vishnu-tattva. Although the living entities are equal in quality to the internal potency of Krishna (which is spiritual), they nevertheless keep their marginal independence. Jiva-tattva (the marginal energy) does not turn into Vishnu-tattva (the internal energy), otherwise the living entity would turn into God Himself as in Mayavadi philosophy.

Marginal energy can be situated either in the external or internal energy of the Lord and according to the living beings free will and contact with either the material or spiritual energies, the living being is situated in proportionally higher or lower levels of existence. If marginal energy can freely choose to be situated in either external or internal energy, then marginal energy (because of his free will) can also choose to leave either external or internal energy."

Here are excerpts from two letters the Srila Prabhupada sent to Upendra prabhu regarding our 'original position'. One letter is from 1968 and one from 1969.

Srila Prabhupada - "Regarding your question, in one sense both you and Mahapurusa are right. The fact is that after the dissolution of the Universe the living entities remain in slumber within Maha Visnu, and again when the creation takes place they are impregnated in their original position and they come out in different species of life. By gradual evolutionary process, when they come to the human form there is good chance of getting out of the repeated birth and death, and one can enter into the Spiritual Realm. But if one loses this chance he is again put into the cycle of birth and death. The conditioned souls are always within the Maha Visnu Form, whereas the liberated souls in Vaikuntha, they are engaged in the service of the Lord. Constitutionally every living entity, even if he is in the Vaikuntha Loka, has chance of falling down”.

Srila Prabhupada - "Therefore the living entity is called marginal energy. But when the falldown has taken place for the conditioned soul is very difficult to ascertain. Therefore two classes are designated: eternally liberated and eternally conditioned. But for arguments sake, a living entity being marginal energy, he can't be eternally conditioned. The Time is so unlimited that the conditioned souls appear to be eternally so, but from the philosophical view he cannot be eternally conditioned. Since we cannot trace out when we have become conditioned, there is no use of arguing on this point. Better to take care first how we can get rid of this conditional existence; as much as a patient should take care for treating his disease more, and less waste his time in finding out the cause of his disease".

Please offer my blessings to the others. I hope this will meet you in good health."

A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada (end of discourse only)

[RamanaDasi]

 

Srila Prabhupada: So, even in the Vaikuntha, if I desire that--"Why shall I serve Krishna? Why not become Krishna?"--I immediately fall down.

 

 

Sometimes the Gopis think "I am Krishna"

 

But they don't fall down into material life. Not even in their dreams.

 

According to Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu the Gopis are the greatest devotees of Krishna. The Gopis expressions of bhakti presented in the Bhagavat are all divine. And we see in Srimad Bhagavat that in their madness of divine love the Gopis sometimes think "I am Krishna" and in the Bhagavat nowhere does it say that the Gopis were punished for thinking "I am Krishna". Your Iskcon sampradaya is saying things that are different from what Srimad Bhagavat is teaching.

 

 

After searching for Krsna here and there, when the gopis became fatigued, they began to talk like madwomen. They could only satisfy themselves by imitating the different pastimes of Krsna. One of them imitated the demon, Putana, and one of them imitated Krsna and sucked her breast. One gopi imitated a hand-driven cart, and another gopi lay down beneath the cart and began to throw up her legs, touching the wheels of the cart, as Krsna did to kill the demon Sakatasura. They imitated child Krsna, lying down on the ground, and one gopi became the demon Trnavarta and carried the small child Krsna by force into the sky; and one of the gopis began to imitate Krsna while He was attempting to walk, ringing His ankle bells. Two gopis imitated Krsna and Balarama, and many others imitated Their cowherd boy friends. One gopi assumed the form of Bakasura, and another forced her to fall down as the demon Bakasura did when he was killed; similarly, another gopi defeated Vatsasura. Just as Krsna used to call His cows by their different names, so the gopis imitated Him, calling the cows by their respective names. One of the gopis began to play on a flute, and another praised her the way Krsna's boy friends praised Him while He played on His flute. One of the gopis took another gopi on her shoulders, just as Krsna used to take His boy friends. Absorbed in thoughts of Krsna, the gopi who was carrying her friend began to boast that she was Krsna herself: "All of you just see my movement!" One of the gopis raised her hand with her covering garments and said, "Now don't be afraid of torrents of rain and severe hurricanes. I'll save you!" In this way she imitated the lifting of Govardhana Hill. One gopi forcibly put her feet on the head of another gopi and said, "You rascal Kaliya! I shall punish you severely. You must leave this place. I have descended on this earth to punish all kinds of miscreants!" Another gopi told her friends, "Just see! The flames of the forest fire are coming to devour us. Please close your eyes, and I shall immediately save you from this imminent danger."

 

 

In your Iskcon philosophy do you think those gopis who were madly thinking about Krishna and thinking "I am Krsna" will fall down from Goloka and become dogs, hogs, camels. This is your Iskcon thinking is it not?

 

You Iskcon people are so arrogant that you want to teach everyone what is Krishna bhakti but your teachings are totally different from what is taught by Sukdev in the Bhagavat.

[Sarva gattah]

 

How can we leave a place of such exquisite loveliness? Once we go to Goloka we do not leave. We can not leave.( out of everlasting forever happiness and bliss) I do not see how we were there in the first place.

 

The paradox here is no one never really leaves Goloka, they only dream, think and imagine they do by falling out of sync with the 'eternal present' and enter the dreams of Maha-Vishnu within His mahat-tattva creation.

The only thing that has changed is the ones awareness of 'eternal time' in relation to 'divided time' - hence it is not a division of consciousness, but rather a division of time, just like when the concept of mundane time changes while one is dreaming.

Actually when one again becomes aware of their eternal nitya-siddha body in Goloka and the eternal relationship they have with Krishna, it will be as if their baddha-jiva dream state, that has entered the dreams of the sleeping Maha-Vishnu in His mahat-tattva material creation, taking on a bogus identity of one of His material bodily creations, never existed.

On return to the 'eternal present’, or simply waking up from dreaming in the mahat-tattva, it will be as if they never left because nothing has changed in Goloka.

It is important to REALIZE that Goloka is a pure devotional place where perpetual loving service to Krsna, happens within the 'eternal present', devoid of past, future, decay and bodily absentees – every living entity is represented there by their permanent ‘svarupa’ body (Also known as the Siddha-jiva) of whom is them without beginning or end

 

Also Ramana dasi, your question will be answere soon, it's a good queston and is actually answered in Prabhupada's Nectar of Devotion'

[ranjeetmore]

I dOn't believe whatever you are saying.

 

Our original selves are in Goloka and Subconscious selves are in the material world?

 

This is exactly like the Mayavadis saying that we are under Illusion but I am Brahm.

 

What nonsense are you'll preaching?

 

This is serious fraud.

100% fraud.

 

Ever found the cause why iskcon is not half as popular when SP was there?

 

Here it is.

Nowadays,he's not here to correct all this nonsense.

 

And is there any Prema Bhakta in isckon....?

 

For long I've been too timid to ask this,but i have asked it now.

 

Is there any prema Bhakta?? Tell me point blank...Is there any genuine guru or this is all just fraud?

[ranjeetmore]

And If you have any gosvami literature as proof behind your incredulous claims,please do produce it here.

 

(Which i'm sure is impossible)

[RamanaDasi]

 

And is there any Prema Bhakta in isckon....?

 

For long I've been too timid to ask this,but i have asked it now.

 

Is there any prema Bhakta?? Tell me point blank...Is there any genuine guru or this is all just fraud?

 

There is no Prema Bhakta in Iskcon.

[chandu_69]

Chill out, ranjeetmore.The article essentially is agreeing with what you say.I

Suggest you reread the article and sarva response.

Cheers.

[Sarva gattah]

 

The fact is, our real bodily form is eternally with Krishna in Goloka, but sometimes, due to our ability to choose and practise free will, we simply make the wrong choice and ‘dream’ of an existence without Krishna.

In this way, our memory and 'awareness' of who we really are becomes forgotten or covered by our own self centred desires to please ourselves in our imaginary (real but temporary) material ethereal and biological bodies as we no longer recognise Krishna as our eternal master from that is only seen from the correct viewpoint of our permanent and always existing Krishna Conscious nitya-siddha Spiritual body.

 

Srila Prabhupada - "Established means re-establish. It is already established. That is called svarupa-siddhi. When one becomes perfectly spiritually realised, then he understands what is his relationship is. This relationship is eternal".

Srila Prabhupada - "We all have come down from Vaikuntha some millions of years ago” Lecture August 6, 1973

Nothing is lost or gained in Goloka Vrndavana or the perpetual Kingdom of God because everything is always fully perfect in the mood of loving selfless devotional relationships with Krishna, that are always expanding in a universe of endless loving exchanges. In actual fact, we are always there but some of us are 'thinking' or 'dreaming' (This dream state of the living entity means a real exitence but temporary) we are not there but rather CHOOSE to live in a world made up of our own imagination.

Guest: Srila Prabhupada, why is the material world made on the level of a jailhouse? It's made on the level of a jailhouse, that, I've been told, the attitude of a jail, instead of the attitude . . .

Srila Prabhupada: Yes, because there will be so many criminals. Therefore, government has to construct a jailhouse. It is not government's desire. It is expensive, unnecessary. But because there are rascals who will become criminal, the government has jailhouse. So one who wants to remain independent of Krishna, for them there is material world, "All right, you remain here."

Vipina Purandara prabhu: We also say that Krishna is fulfilling the desires of every living entity. So if we want to enjoy independent of Krishna, why doesn't He let us really enjoy independent of Him?

Srila Prabhupada: That is not possible. That is Maya; it is called (Maya). You are not enjoyer, you are servant. Because you are willing to become enjoyer, you suffer, that's all. You are not enjoyer.

Vipina Purandara prabhu: Then He's not fulfilling the desire.

Srila Prabhupada: No, you wanted to enjoy--enjoy at your risk. Sometimes you'll become the king of heaven, and sometimes you become the germs in the stool.

Vipina Purandara prabhu: Hmmm, enjoy at your risk.

Srila Prabhupada: Yes.

Vipina Purandara prabhu: Instead of under His protection, you enjoy at your risk.

Srila Prabhupada: Therefore He advises, "Rascal, you give up all this enjoying spirit. You just surrender to Me. You'll be happy." But we don't accept it. Therefore, sometimes we are in the heavenly kingdom, sometimes as a worm in the stool. That is going on. That is your risk. Excerpt from an Evening Darsana on July 8, 1976 in Washington, D.C.

His Divine Grace Srila Prabhupada, the shaktyavesh-avatar of bhakti-shakti and the current or most recent Sampradaya Acharya in our line of the parampara, is answering the origination question . He is making a very self-evident, forceful presentation:

“So, even in the Vaikuntha, if I desire that--"Why shall I serve Krishna? Why not become Krishna?"--I immediately fall down.”

“ . . . we may fall down from Vaikuntha at any moment.”

So leaving Goloka is NOT a physical fall down in our nitya siddha body, it is a sub-conscious one where we manifest as our nitya baddha projected sub-conscious state that is compared to a dream state of being, which is the lower self of ones marginal individuality and personality.

This artificial dreaming conscious state is then projected by the living entity as their dream intensifies by desiring to experience existence on their own terms, governed by desires centred around the secondary self that has completely forgotten the perpetual nitya siddha Krsna conscious bodily form they really are eternally.

 

It's all pretty clearly explained above

[Sarva gattah]

Quote:

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>Originally Posted by ranjeetmore

 

And is there any Prema Bhakta in isckon....?

 

For long I've been too timid to ask this,but i have asked it now.

 

Is there any prema Bhakta?? Tell me point blank...Is there any genuine guru or this is all just fraud

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

 

Originally Posted by RamanaDasi

There is no Prema Bhakta in Iskcon.

 

No, there is none that I know off at present either in ISKCON or the Gaudiya math. The last one was Srila Prabhupada and he left us in 1977 however, there are many sincere devotees around to take shelter of. You don't have to look for Guru if you are selflessly sincere, he will find you.

To me, ISKCON is Prabhupada, I have little to do with the present version of ISKCON because today it is not the ISKCON that Prabhupada started, although I dearly love Jayapataka Maharaj who I served in in 1979 and again in 1982 and 89 in Mayapur.

And the Gaudiya math is the same; it is NOT the same Gaudiya math Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Maharaj started in the 1920's.

The only inspiring devotee for me to come from the Gaudiya math and preach was Srila AC.Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada. My recent trip to INDIA confirmed that and lets just say, without being offensive, I choose to have NO dealing with the Gaudiya math.

The safest way is to ALWAYS stick with Srila Prabhupada, you do not have to be a member of his present immature version ISKCON to do that.

Read Srila Prabhupada's books and seek advice from devotees like Jahnava Nitai Prabhu on how to be a REAL devotee of Krishna Bhaktivedanta Ashram

[Sarva gattah]

 

Originally Posted by ranjeetmore

I dOn't believe whatever you are saying.

 

Our original selves are in Goloka and Subconscious selves are in the material world?

 

What nonsense are you'll preaching?

 

This is serious fraud.

100% fraud.

 

Ever found the cause why iskcon is not half as popular when SP was there?

Here it is.

 

Nowadays,he's not here to correct all this nonsense.

 

 

Yes, many like you have laughed or complained sarcastically in so many ways when told by Srila Prabhupada their existence in the material world is just a dream.

It is Srila Prabhupada who clearly states we have created a dream existence in the material creation due to choosing to forget Krishna and the nitya-siddha body we serve Krishna as eternally

Even many present day ISKCON devotees do not understand what Srila Prabhupada has told us about our origin long ago that I was also fortunate to hear.

However, if they care to read Prabhupada’s books, they will find this material world is ALL the living entities dream, ONLY EXPERIENCED by sub-consciously leaving their real perpetual body in Goloka and then 'entering' the unlimited dream identities or vessels within the dreams of Maha Vishnu –

Srila Prabhupada – “This material creation is the spirit soul's dream. Actually all existence in the material world is a dream of Mahā-Viṣṇu, as the Brahma-saḿhitā describes –

Srila Bhaktisiddhanta - “This material world is created by the dreaming of Mahā-Viṣṇu. The real, factual platform is the spiritual world, but when the spirit soul wants to imitate the Supreme Personality of Godhead, he is put into this dreamland of material creation”.

4.29.83.http://vedabase.net/sb/4/29/83/en

Srila Prabhupada - “Everything happening within time, which consists of past, present and future, is merely a dream. This is the secret in understanding in all the Vedic literature.” SB. 4.29.2b.

Srila Prabhupada - “Of course, everyone has a particular relationship with the Lord, and that relationship is evoked by the perfection of devotional service. But in the present status of our life, we have not only forgotten the Supreme Lord, but we have forgotten our eternal relationship with the Lord”. Bhagavad-Gita, Introduction

Srila Prabhupada - “Every living being has a particular relationship with the Lord eternally, that is called svarupa. By the process of devotional service, one can revive that svarupa, and that stage is called svarupa-siddhi—perfection of one’s constitutional position. Bhagavad-Gita, Introduction. .”

Srila Prabhupada - “We have an intimate relationship with the Lord, and because we are all qualitatively one . . . the whole purpose of Bhagavad-gita is to revive our sanatana occupation, or sanatana dharma, which is the eternal occupation of the living entity “. Bhagavad-gita, Introduction. .

Srila Prabhupada - “The Lord descends to reclaim all of these fallen, conditioned souls to call them back to the sanatana eternal sky so that the sanatana living entities may regain their eternal sanatana positions of eternal association with the Lord.” Bhagavad-gita, Introduction.

Srila Prabhupada – “In his original state, there is no doubt of enjoyment; therefore, that is his real state.” Bhagavad-gita, 13.21, purport.

Srila Prabhupada – “Originally everyone (all marginal living entities) is nitya-siddha (eternally liberated)” Srimad-Bhagavatam Class 7.9.4– Mayapur, February 18, 1977

Srila Prabhupada - “Originally everyone is nitya-siddha. nitya-siddha krsna-bhakti ’sadhya’ kabhu naya sravanadi-suddha-citte karaye udaya. Every living entity originally nitya-siddha, ". Srimad-Bhagavatam Class 7.9.4– Mayapur, February 18, 1977

Srila Prabhupada - "So to go to Krishna means you will have to acquire your original, spiritual body. The spiritual body is already there, but we are now covered by this material body". By His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada Germany, June 22, 1974

Srila Prabhupada - "As living spiritual souls we are all originally Krsna conscious entities, but due to our association with matter from time immemorial, our consciousness has now become polluted by the material atmosphere." (Original Hare Krsna album)

Srila Bhaktivinoda Takura - “However, because of contact with matter, the imprisoned soul loses the memory of his original spiritual form in Vaikuntha. . . material rasas are perverted reflections of the soul's original spiritual rasas.” Prema-pradipa, p. 83

Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Prabhupada - “It is the jivas who are the attendants in His Sports. They become attached to matter, having deviated from their own essential nature as the result of their desire for enjoyment. But when again the soul . . . gains true wisdom of the transcendental region of God . . . he begins to get back his pure essential nature” Sri Caitanya's Teachings, p. 323.

Srila Prabhupada – “We have also come down from Vaikuntha some millions and millions of years ago." - Lecture on Bhagavad-gita on August 6, 1973

Srila Prabhupada – “This material creation is the spirit soul's dream. Actually all existence in the material world is a dream of Mahā-Viṣṇu, as the Brahma-saḿhitā describes –

Srila Bhaktisiddhanta - “This material world is created by the dreaming of Mahā-Viṣṇu. The real, factual platform is the spiritual world, but when the spirit soul wants to imitate the Supreme Personality of Godhead, he is put into this dreamland of material creation”. 4.29.83.http://vedabase.net/sb/4/29/83/en

Srila Prabhupada – “Existence in the impersonal Brahman is also within the category of non-Krsna consciousness. Those who are in the Brahman effulgence, they are also in the fallen condition. So there is no question of falling down from a fallen condition”. - Letter, June 13, 1970.

Srila Prabhupada said to me in the Sydney Temple room in early 1973, when he came in while I was cleaning. Srila Prabhupada had started ecstatically laughing when he saw I had put paintings of the Pancha tattva and Krsna and Balarama on the step of his Vyasa chair –

“That’s not where the Lord goes”. Srila Prabhupada said

Then after a short silence he added,

Srila Prabhupada - “Soon you will understand the illusion this temporary material world is, try to understand that YOUR real bodily form is ALWAYS in Vaikuntha” then left it at that and continued laughing at where I put these paintings while I cleaned the walls.

At the time I realized the importance at what he said which was we only dream or think we are in the material world when in perpetual reality, we (our real bodily form) is always in Goloka.

It was many, many years later when the ‘origin of the jiva’ debate AGAIN started (Actually that debate started in 1972 and ended with Prabhupada’s words to me, at least as far as I was concerned on this subject, in 1973).

[ranjeetmore]

But then veda is saying jeevatma is undergoing Utkraanti,Gati and Aa-gati.

 

It is leaving the body,Going to candraloka and then again taking up another body according to karma.

It is upon this very fact that Srila Vedavyasa Himself denied the nonsense of everything is Brahm.

When you say that thus material manifestation is the Dream of Sri Mahavisnu,I accept it without doubt.

That's the reason why we all see,hear,taste,feel the same things...for they really exist.

But it can't be a separate dream of every Jeeva.

 

It would only be a unclear version of Advaita.

Jeevatma is itself in Mahat tattva.

Srila Vedavyasa had clearly explained that, During the state of Maya-baddha and after mukti,Maya-mukt, the jeevatma REMAINS anu...atomic.

This verse is used against the faulty view of Advaita.

 

And your saying these things.

 

Sri Gauranga has said,"From beginnigless time,jeevatma is Sri krsna Vimukh"

He has used the word,"Anaadi" in this regard.

 

I believe there have always been contradicting point of views amongst Vaishnava-acaryas(REALISED) themselves.

I'm led to believe Srila Bhaktisiddhanta stuck with the 'anaadi bahirmukh' point of view.

 

 

 

Jeevatma being the ansh or particle of Jeeva-sakti-vishisht-Sri Krsna,is situated between Sri KRsna's antaranga(Swarupa sakti) and Bahiranga(maya sakti) Saktis.It either goes toward Maya or towards Sri Bhagavan.However there is never a point in time when this occurs.

 

Most Vaishnava-acaryas believe that there wasn't a 'point in time' when the jeevatma turned his back on Sri Krsna.It has ETERNALLY been like this.

 

 

If we say that the jeeva 'fell down',it immediately belittles the Superexcellence and Spritual fundamentals of the Parvyoma.

 

Wanting to become Sri Krsna is unnatural.Wanting to enjoy separate from sri Krsna IMMEDIATELY implies that Jeevatma is either unsatisfied or getting limited happiness in goloka.

 

But veda says,"Rastvam heva yam labhdva nandi Bhavati"

When you attain Him,only then will you get ananda(Anando Bhavati)

 

And veda defines ananda as,"That which is unlimited.Remains for eternity.And goes on increasing eternally."

 

If and only if all these three qualities are found in happiness,then is it eligible to be called premanand,krsnanand/Ramanand.

 

As soon as you take into account the 'desire' to enjoy other than sri krsna,

It IMMEDIATELY

has to mean that Sri Krsna is NOT ananda.This is just impossible.

 

IMPOSSIBLE.

IMPOSSIBLE

IMPOSSIBLE.

 

There is absolutely NO logic whatsoever that can go around this little snag.

[Sarva gattah]

The dreams of the living entity are real but temporary.

 

Correct reality however is imperishable, permanent, without decay and without past or future. Everything is already there and always has been

 

 

 

 

Independent self centred dreams of the living entity in Goloka however, are project instantaneously, such ‘dreams’ or ‘thoughts’ are very real and are not illusion because they go on to really exist in the mahat-tattva, which is the material creation governed by Maha Vishnu. His dreams and our dreams are not illusion, but rather are temporary, they fade and eventually be as if they never existed. Such temporary reality is the nature of the material creation or maha-tattva

 

Stop thinking in terms of your dreams in your material body, it's not like that --

 

 

 

Dreams in you head while sleeping are illusions.

 

You are conditioned by mundane education to believe 'dreams' are illusion.

The dreams of Maha Vishnu below are different and so are ours from our eternal nitya-siddha body

Dreaming from Goloka however, is not like that, the nitya-baddha jiva state is real and described as 10.000th the size of a tip of hair. Due to the fact that the baddha-jiva is consciousness forgetful of its eternal form, many yogis, philosophers and Vedantists, believe the soul or jiva is formless. They think this way because they have no information of the jiva’s permanent home, Goloka-Vrndavana

Even in the mundane heavenly worlds, ones thoughts, dreams and desires are as real as the reality they live in ...

 

 

In Goloka however, independent thoughts not of pleasing Krishna, instantaneously puts one in Maha-Vishnu's mahat-tattva material creation that is dipicted in a darker circle above

 

MAHAT-TATTVA MEANS MATERIAL WORLDS AS PAINTNG BELOW REVEALS IN THE BOTTOM RIGHT HAND CORNER (TAKING UP 25% OF THE SPIRITUAL SKY OR BRAHMAJYOTI)

 

 

 

 

[ranjeetmore]

Plz hear carefully.

 

1>

 

If every jeevatma were to dream independently,

different persons could NOT have percieved the same material manifestation.

 

I never said,Maha-vishnu's dream is mithya.

It is definitely real.

 

But there is no sastric support to YOUR theory.

 

2>

the factor of Sri Krsna's All attractiveness comes in.

 

"Sri Krsna ceases to be all attractive"

 

This is your indirect implication,when you say that jeevatma wants to enjoy separate from Sri Krsna.

 

3>

the vedic statement "That jeevatma becomes all-knowing after Bhagavatpraapti" loses its meaning when you say what your saying.

 

Isn't it the devotees(prema bhaktas) who distribute the 'real' knowledge of Godhead?

 

Yes.They are the only ones who do.

 

These prema bhaktas are perfectly capable of giving perfect 'knowledge' of Sri Krsna.

 

Yet your saying that after going to Goloka they 'get' the desire to 'become' Sri Krsna EVENTHOUGH they are situated in perfect knowledge of Him (automatically meaning they have perfect knowledge that they can NEVER 'become' Him)??

 

4>

Nitya prema bhakti is there in everyone's heart.TRUE.

MAhaprabhuji's statement is faultless.

But it denotes the Sambhanda between Sri Krsna and Jeeva.

"Abhideya,Sambandha Prayojana"

 

it doesn't mean that Jeevas fall out of the Spiritual sky just like that.

It demeans the factual perfect position of Vaikuntha/Goloka,etc.

 

plz address my earlier question.....

 

 

If you claim that Jeevatma gets BORED in Goloka,then you automatically mean to say that Sri Krsna is just like Rasa gulla.After you eat enough,you want to enjoy something else.

 

 

I CANNOT digest this.

[RamanaDasi]

 

Nitya prema bhakti is there in everyone's heart.TRUE.

MAhaprabhuji's statement is faultless.

But it denotes the Sambhanda between Sri Krsna and Jeeva.

"Abhideya,Sambandha Prayojana"

 

it doesn't mean that Jeevas fall out of the Spiritual sky just like that.

It demeans the factual perfect position of Vaikuntha/Goloka,etc.

 

plz address my earlier question.....

 

 

If you claim that Jeevatma gets BORED in Goloka,then you automatically mean to say that Sri Krsna is just like Rasa gulla.After you eat enough,you want to enjoy something else.

 

 

I CANNOT digest this.

 

No soul ever falls from Vaikuntha or Goloka.

 

You are right Ranjeet but they will never agree.

[Sarva gattah]

 

No soul ever falls from Vaikuntha or Goloka

 

Yes, I agree, both of you are right. We only think or dream we fall down when actually there is never a fall down of our Spiritual body from Goloka

[Sarva gattah]

 

If we say that the jeeva 'fell down',it immediately belittles the Superexcellence and Spritual fundamentals of the Parvyoma.

 

Wanting to become Sri Krsna is unnatural.Wanting to enjoy separate from sri Krsna IMMEDIATELY implies that Jeevatma is either unsatisfied or getting limited happiness in goloka.

 

But veda says,"Rastvam heva yam labhdva nandi Bhavati"

When you attain Him,only then will you get ananda(Anando Bhavati)

 

And veda defines ananda as,"That which is unlimited.Remains for eternity.And goes on increasing eternally."

 

If and only if all these three qualities are found in happiness,then is it eligible to be called premanand,krsnanand/Ramanand.

 

As soon as you take into account the 'desire' to enjoy other than sri krsna,

It IMMEDIATELY

has to mean that Sri Krsna is NOT ananda.This is just impossible.

 

IMPOSSIBLE.

IMPOSSIBLE

IMPOSSIBLE.

 

There is absolutely NO logic whatsoever that can go around this little snag.

Srila Prabhupada: You are already in the spiritual sky, but you are simply covered. Just like the sun is already there. You are also already there…so actually we are always in the spiritual world. But when you forget Krishna by the cloud of illusion that is material. Try to understand”. From a Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture given in London, on July 30, 1971

Srila Prabhupada - “Actually we are not fallen therefore, at any moment we can revive our Krishna consciousness. As soon as we understand that, “I have nothing to do with. I am simply Krishna’s servant. Eternal servant. That’s all.lecture Tokyo Japan 1972: Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 2.9.1

Srila Prabhupada - “You are eternally liberated (nitya-siddha) but since we have become conditioned on account of our desire to enjoy materialistic way of life, from time immemorial, therefore it appears that we are eternally conditioned (nitya-baddha)” Letter to Aniruddha, dated November 14, 196

Srila Prabhupada - “Our contact with matter is just like dream. Actually we are not fallen. Therefore, because we are not fallen, at any moment we can revive our Krishna consciousness, we break the dream. Similarly, we can break this So this situation” Srila Prabhupada lecture Tokyo Japan 1972: Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 2.9.1

Srila Prabhupada – “We have got an eternal relationship with Krishna, either as father or as lover or as servant, like that. So that is self-realisation. When you will be perfect in love, in loving Krishna, then in what status of life you will love, that you will under–…That will be revealed. That is called svarupa-siddhi”. (Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture, December 7, 1974, Bombay)

Srila Prabhupada - “When the dream is finished, we come to another dream: “Oh, this is my house. This is my family. This is my bank balance.” This is going on. Dream. One dream at night, one dream at daytime. But who is dreaming? That is the living entity. So his business is different. Not dreaming, daytime dreaming and night-time dreaming. He has to come to the actual platform. That is Krsna consciousness. If he takes to Krsna consciousness, that is his actual life. Otherwise, he’s in the dreamland” Bombay, December 27, 1972

Srila Prabhupada - “Our separation from Krishna is like that. We dream this body and so many relationships with other things”. Letter to Madhuvisa Swami

Srila Prabhupada - ‘Actually, you are not conditioned. You are thinking. Just like in the dream you are thinking that tiger is eating you. You were never eaten by tiger. There is no tiger. So we have to get out of this dream. (Lecture on Sri Caitanya-caritamrta, Adi-lila 7.108–San Francisco, February 18, 1967)

Srila Prabhupada - “We cannot say therefore that we are not with Krishna. As soon as we try to become Lord, immediately we are covered by Maya. Formerly we were with Krishna in His Lila or sport” Letter to Madhuvisa Swami

Srila Prabhupada - “Just like in a dream we are thinking very long time, but as soon as we awaken we look at our watch and see it has been a moment only”

The full expression and complete potential of ALL marginal living entities is their perpetual ’svarupa’ body that is eternally situated and established within Goloka or Vaikuntha. Therefore it can then be said that the marginal living entities that have miss-used their free will and chose to enter the mahat-tattva, are only temporarily trapped within the material creation, while their undying ‘svarupa’ body is currently laying dormant (hidden from their present awareness) within Goloka or Vaikuntha.

Of course this viewpoint is only from the marginal living entities perspective or standpoint within the material creation. Their conditional existence continues on until the marginal living entity again becomes responsive enough to perceive their true original Krishna Conscious bodily foundation within Goloka or Vaikuntha.

A rudimentary example of this is when someone goes away from watching a movie; they put the dvd player on hold or pause, let me explain -.

It should be noted this example does not mean the spiritual pastimes of Goloka can ever be been put on hold or pause for the benefit of the marginal living entity, such a ridicules proposal is not what I am trying to communicate here. On the other hand, from the perspective of the marginal living entity within the material world, their relationship with Krishna HAS been presently put on hold or ‘pause’ while they ‘consciously’ roam around the temporary material creation trying to enjoy in their own way.

This is only an analogy describing that the jiva soul’s relationship with Krishna CAN AND IS put on hold due to them falling out of sync with their nitya-siddha body in Goloka and ‘sub-consciously’ taking shelter within divided time within the mahat-tattva. In this way the marginal living entity forgets the eternal devotional realm of Krishna’s pastimes going on in Goloka. Such pastimes are perpetually established and founded within the never-ending ‘present’, which is the reality of Goloka and Vaikuntha.

In this way our eternal svarupa body is fully established in Goloka and has always has been there.

Srila Prabhupada -”The original home of the living entity and the Supreme Personality of Godhead is the spiritual world. In the spiritual world both the Lord and the living entities live together very peacefully”(Srimad-Bhagavatam 4.28.54, purport)

Srila Prabhupada - “Everyone has got a particular relationship with Krishna in his original, constitutional position. That will be revealed gradually as you advance in devotional service”(Nectar of Devotion lecture, 20 October 1972, Vrindaban)

Srila Prabhupada - “The living of a miserable life in the material world by dint of the soul’s choice is nicely illustrated by Milton in Paradise Lost. Similarly, by choice the soul can regain paradise and return home, back to Godhead”. Sri Caitanya Caritamrita Adi 5.22

Srila Prabhupada clearly states “Because he falls down from Brahma-sayujya (impersonal liberated condition), he thinks that may be his origin, but he does not remember that long, long, long, long ago before that even, he was with Krishna”. Letter to Australian devotees 1972

Srila Prabhupada – “Established means re-establish. It is already established. We have got different types of relationship. That is called svarupa-siddhi. Svarupa-siddhi. When you are perfect in spiritual life, you will understand what your relationship with Krishna is automatically. That is called svarupa-siddhi”. (Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture, December 7, 1974, Bombay)

Srila Prabhupada – “Similarly, we have got an eternal relationship with Krishna, either as father or as lover or as servant, like that. So that is self-realisation. When you will be perfect in love, in loving Krishna, then in what status of life you will love, that you will under–…That will be revealed. That is called svarupa-siddhi”. (Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture, December 7, 1974, Bombay)

Srila Prabhupada – ‘So svarupa-siddhi is not something artificial. When one becomes perfectly spiritually realised, then he understands what his relationship with Krishna is, and he begins his service in that relationship as father, as friend, as guru or as servant, like that. So this relationship is eternal. (Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture, December 7, 1974, Bombay)

Srila Prabhupada - ‘No one falls from the spiritual world or Vaikuntha planet, for it is the eternal abode. (Bhag. 3.16.26, purp.)

This clearly means our nitya-siddha svarupa body can NEVER leave Goloka or Vaikuntha and that WE ONLY DREAM, THINK OR IMAGINE WE LEAVE. In this way the mahat-tattva is the destination for where such dreams go. It is there they are provided with temporary bodily forms created by Maha-Vishnu who is dreaming the entire mahat-tattva or material creation aspect of the Spiritual Sky.

In this way it is Srila Prabhupada explaining to us in very simple English that we all originate from Goloka.

[RamanaDasi]

Iskcon's philosophy is very similar to mayavada

 

Mayavada says this world is an illusion and that our self is always transcendental brahma.

 

Iskcon says this world is an illusion and that our self is always in Goloka. Same thing.

 

If everyone is in Goloka already then why bother with the internet. Just do your japam and shut your mouth because nobody neads to hear your words since every soul is already an uttoma mahapurusha and nobody is really starving or sick or stupid. In your philosophy you say I am already a Goloka-bhasi so if I am then why give me a lecture about Iskconism. Bye bye.

[bija]

 

Iskcon's philosophy is very similar to mayavada

 

Mayavada says this world is an illusion and that our self is always transcendental brahma.

 

Iskcon says this world is an illusion and that our self is always in Goloka. Same thing. by Ramana Dasi

 

Srila Prabhupada: You are already in the spiritual sky... quoted by Sarva

These ideas are Sarva's conclusions (extensions), not fully Iskcon. As far as I understand they are like an add-on to the fall from Goloka theory, which ofcourse is incorrect.

 

Note the word here sky? This does not say planet. Rather the sky that surrounds the planets is made up of marginal particles. All souls are brahman by nature, jiva is eternally marginal. But the marginal soul identifying fully with rasa dance (hladhini shakti) never falls, being fully absorbed in hladhini potency.

 

The particle is always a part of the Whole. In Gaudiya philosophy the sweet centre resides on a personal spiritual planet, surrounded by sky. The gopis etc are internal potency (not marginal jiva shakti), therefore they orbit around Krsna in the rasa dance on the planet (nitya).

 

The marginal souls satellite around that planet in the spiritual sky (refer Sri Krsna Samhita) - also nitya intrinsically but prone to fall by misidentifying with the temporal. Perceiving themselves as controllers seperate from the Supreme Controller (the Supreme Sun - Goloka, one could say). Fallen since time immemorial.

 

In the Vedanta Sutra it is said that the liberated soul can either choose to manifest a spiritual body, or, not manifest a spiritual body.

 

Therefore, the soul (as an eternal part of the whole - being situated in the spiritual sky) may choose to align (one could say) with the activity of the rasa dance (with form on a planet). Or the soul may choose (upon liberation) to remain in santa rasa in the brahman effulgence, identifying with the whole (complete brahman) in the sky.

 

As human beings we have a profound psyche, because it can come in contact with the adhoksaja plane of existence (spiritual potency). This contact is through buddhi - buddhi yoga which is non-different to bhakti yoga (see Gita As It Is). This is Srila Prabhupada's point - that through bhakti (buddhi) the marginal fallen soul can realize the intrinsic that is already there. Simply in need of awakening.

 

In transpersonal psychology and myth the same is said, but in different terminologies (often with impersonal philosophy) - the human potential (human birth being very important). Gaudiya Vaisnavism is quite unique in that its claim is that the marginal potency can serve the rasa dance of the Lord and enhance hladhini potencies bliss (by serving a nitya siddha)- thus gaining identity or residence in Goloka planet. With complete identification as a servant of the servant of the servant.

 

Ofcourse anyone who knows a little of the Bhagavatam knows that it uses words from this world to explain a spiritual reality, therefore words will always fall short because they come from this material plane. What is taken is the essence or intrinsic nature, which must be realized. It is within us eternally because we are eternally a part of the Whole, in that sense never fallen. We just need to wake up (realize). If we simply rely on words only then we have many divergent philosophies. We need to practice with great attachment to realize within.

 

Jiva Jago!

[Sarva gattah]

Nonesense, the material world is not an illusion, it is very real but temporary

 

Srila Prabhupada has said that those polluted by mayavadi teachings foolshly believe we came from the impersonal Brahmajyoti or born from a plain sheet of consciousness, foolishly saying the jiva springs from a plain sheet of consciousness and not Goloka Vrndavana.

 

Prabhupada, ISKCON's founder rejected such impersonal nonsense that unfortunately pollute other Gaudiya traditions

[Sarva gattah]

Quote from Bija:

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: rgb(102,102,102) 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: rgb(102,102,102) 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(102,102,102) 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: rgb(102,102,102) 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>Srila Prabhupada: You are already in the spiritual sky... quoted by Sarva </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

Obviously you have not been around long. The Spiritual Sky or it's other word 'the Brahmajyoti' is full of Spiritual Vaikuntha planets howver, within that same Spiritual Sky or Brahmajyoti, is the mahat tattva creation of Maha Vishnu. Only on the outer edges of the mahat-tattva can the impersonal aspect of the Brahmajyoti exist. Technically, the entire mahat-tattva is impersonal. One can only enter it as a bodiless consciousness after being the living entity sub-consciously leaves Goloka or is projected from their real bodily form in Goloka

The nitya-baddha-jiva is actually a formless individual until Maha Vishnu provides such ‘consciousness’ with a bodily vessel. the Mayavadis or impersonalists cannot understand this.

 

All they see is the mahat tattva amd the formles spark of conscious. This is due to denying the fct there is Goloka and is the origin of ALL nitya-siddha living entities - This iscalled PERSONALISM

 

Also I have not added anything, it is all coming from Prabhupada.

Therefore, other than my personal association with Prabhupada from 1972 to 1976, I have intensly searched Prabhupada's Books, letters, lectures and morning walks and found statements others were not aware of about how we came down from Vaikuntha, not as our Spiritual body, but rather as a sub-conscious projection called the baddha-jiva.

 

Srila Prabhupada: You are already in the spiritual sky, but you are simply covered. Just like the sun is already there. You are also already there…so actually we are always in the spiritual world. But when you forget Krishna by the cloud of illusion that is material. Try to understand”. From a Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture given in London, on July 30, 1971

<O></O>

Srila Prabhupada - “Actually we are not fallen therefore, at any moment we can revive our Krishna consciousness. As soon as we understand that, “I have nothing to do with. I am simply Krishna’s servant. Eternal servant. That’s all.lecture Tokyo Japan 1972: Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 2.9.1

<O></O>

Srila Prabhupada - “You are eternally liberated (nitya-siddha) but since we have become conditioned on account of our desire to enjoy materialistic way of life, from time immemorial, therefore it appears that we are eternally conditioned (nitya-baddha)” Letter to Aniruddha, dated November 14, 1966

 

Hare Krsna