What does it really mean to be situated in Gods Kingdom and where is our true form?

[bija]

My argument is this Sarva.

 

Three main energies: Internal, Marginal, External.

 

The Lord's energies are eternal and multifarious, and iconceivable potency. Jiva shakti (marginal energy) is eternal potency, and in essence generated from cit shakti (spiritual potency). But due to its marginal nature it is prone to fall or misidentify with material energy. This material world is not false but temporary. The external energy being a transformation of the Lord's spiritual potency (the example of milk and yoghurt). Transformation of the spiritual potency of the Lord for souls who wish to enjoy seperately. see:

 

 

CC Ādi 7.122: "According to Śańkarācārya, by accepting the theory of the transformation of the energy of the Lord, one creates an illusion by indirectly accepting that the Absolute Truth is transformed."

 

....Since the soul is actually a spiritual particle, as confirmed in the Bhagavad-gītā (mamaivāḿśo jīva-loke), it is due to illusion (vivarta-vāda) that a human being, like an animal, identifies the body with the self. This is a proper example of vivarta, or illusion. The verse atattvato 'nyathā-buddhir vivarta ity udāhṛtaḥ describes such an illusion. To not know actual facts and thus to mistake one thing for another (as, for example, to accept the body as oneself) is called vivarta-vāda. Every conditioned living entity who considers the body to be the soul is deluded by this vivarta-vāda. One can be attacked by this vivarta-vāda philosophy when he forgets the inconceivable power of the omnipotent Personality of Godhead....

The idea that transformation of energy is not possible is Sankaracarya's philosophy, for fear that Brahman would then be transformable. He did not accept that the Lord has multifarious potencies (energies), for in that case spirtual personality would then have to be accepted.

 

 

CC Ādi 7.112: "Everything about the Supreme Personality of Godhead is spiritual, including His body, opulence and paraphernalia. Māyāvāda philosophy, however, covering His spiritual opulence, advocates the theory of impersonalism.

CC Ādi 7.113: "The Supreme Personality of Godhead is full of spiritual potencies. Therefore His body, name, fame and entourage are all spiritual. The Māyāvādī philosopher, due to ignorance, says that these are all merely transformations of the material mode of goodness.

CC Ādi 7.114: "Śańkarācārya, who is an incarnation of Lord Śiva, is faultless because he is a servant carrying out the orders of the Lord. But those who follow his Māyāvādī philosophy are doomed. They will lose all their advancement in spiritual knowledge.

CC Ādi 7.115: "One who considers the transcendental body of Lord Viṣṇu to be made of material nature is the greatest offender at the lotus feet of the Lord. There is no greater blasphemy against the Supreme Personality of Godhead.

CC Ādi 7.116: "The Lord is like a great blazing fire, and the living entities are like small sparks of that fire.

CC Ādi 7.117: "The living entities are energies, not the energetic. The energetic is Kṛṣṇa. This is very vividly described in the Bhagavad-gītā, the Viṣṇu Purāṇa and other Vedic literatures.

CC Ādi 7.118: "'Besides these inferior energies, O mighty-armed Arjuna, there is another, superior energy of Mine, which comprises the living entities who are exploiting the resources of this material, inferior nature.'

CC Ādi 7.119: "'The potency of Lord Viṣṇu is summarized in three categories — namely, the spiritual potency, the living entities and ignorance. The spiritual potency is full of knowledge; the living entities, although belonging to the spiritual potency, are subject to bewilderment; and the third energy, which is full of ignorance, is always visible in fruitive activities.'

CC Ādi 7.120: "The Māyāvāda philosophy is so degraded that it has taken the insignificant living entities to be the Lord, the Supreme Truth, thus covering the glory and supremacy of the Absolute Truth with monism.

CC Ādi 7.121: "In his Vedānta-sūtra Śrīla Vyāsadeva has described that everything is but a transformation of the energy of the Lord. Śańkarācārya, however, has misled the world by commenting that Vyāsadeva was mistaken. Thus he has raised great opposition to theism throughout the entire world.

CC Ādi 7.122: "According to Śańkarācārya, by accepting the theory of the transformation of the energy of the Lord, one creates an illusion by indirectly accepting that the Absolute Truth is transformed.

CC Ādi 7.123: "Transformation of energy is a proven fact. It is the false bodily conception of the self that is an illusion.

CC Ādi 7.124: "The Supreme Personality of Godhead is opulent in all respects. Therefore by His inconceivable energies He has transformed the material cosmic manifestation.

CC Ādi 7.125: "Using the example of a touchstone, which by its energy turns iron to gold and yet remains the same, we can understand that although the Supreme Personality of Godhead transforms His innumerable energies, He remains unchanged.

CC Ādi 7.126: "Although a touchstone produces many varieties of valuable jewels, it nevertheless remains the same. It does not change its original form.

CC Ādi 7.127: "If there is such inconceivable potency in material objects, why should we not believe in the inconceivable potency of the Supreme Personality of Godhead?

 

The gopies are not jiva shakti but direct expansions of hladini shakti. The jiva instead is a transformation of energy, but, by the Lord's great mercy may serve hladhini potency, thus regaining its true, eternal, and Original nature. Which ofcourse is spiritual. The spiritual having nothing to do with maya (external potency).

 

All eternal residents of Goloka are of/and identify with the Lord's spiritual (cit) potency...spiritual substance (complete). The fallen jiva is presently identifying with external (acit) potency....material substance. The gopies, cowherd boys and other direct expansions of the cit (knowledge) and hladhini potencies have never fallen. They are not a transformation of energy like jiva potency (fallen - identifying with avidya), but instead are a part/or servants of inconceivable hladhini shakti eternally (by Bhakti Devi's grace), with Sri Sri Radha Krsna in the centre. Bhakti Devi organises all affairs of Goloka. The jiva may also serve under the guidance of Bhakti Devi. Bhakti Devi is independant (see Madhurya Kadambini) and may offer her services to whom she chooses. The nitya-siddha or pure devotee is also fully independant and may manifest bhakti in anothers heart upon choosing (audarya). That is why the offender may not enter the spiritual sky, until the pure devotee chooses.

 

To say that the direct associates of Sri Sri Radha Krsna can fall is incorrect, what to say of the jiva souls who fully identify with cit shakti (full of hladhini) in service to Bhakti Devi. To say that either of these personalities can fall is great blasphemy (toward Bhakti Devi and her potency):

 

Bhaktivedanta VedaBase: Bhagavad-gītā As It Is 15.6

 

na tad bhāsayate sūryo

na śaśāńko na pāvakaḥ

yad gatvā na nivartante

tad dhāma paramaḿ mama

 

TRANSLATION

That supreme abode of Mine is not illumined by the sun or moon, nor by fire or electricity. Those who reach it never return to this material world.

 

PURPORT

The spiritual world, the abode of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Kṛṣṇa — which is known as Kṛṣṇaloka, Goloka Vṛndāvana — is described here. In the spiritual sky there is no need of sunshine, moonshine, fire or electricity, because all the planets are self-luminous. We have only one planet in this universe, the sun, which is self-luminous, but all the planets in the spiritual sky are self-luminous. The shining effulgence of all those planets (called Vaikuṇṭhas) constitutes the shining sky known as the brahmajyoti. Actually, the effulgence is emanating from the planet of Kṛṣṇa, Goloka Vṛndāvana. Part of that shining effulgence is covered by the mahat-tattva, the material world. Other than this, the major portion of that shining sky is full of spiritual planets, which are called Vaikuṇṭhas, chief of which is Goloka Vṛndāvana.

As long as a living entity is in this dark material world, he is in conditional life, but as soon as he reaches the spiritual sky by cutting through the false, perverted tree of this material world, he becomes liberated. Then there is no chance of his coming back here. In his conditional life, the living entity considers himself to be the lord of this material world, but in his liberated state he enters into the spiritual kingdom and becomes an associate of the Supreme Lord. There he enjoys eternal bliss, eternal life, and full knowledge.

One should be captivated by this information. He should desire to transfer himself to that eternal world and extricate himself from this false reflection of reality. For one who is too much attached to this material world, it is very difficult to cut that attachment, but if he takes to Kṛṣṇa consciousness there is a chance of gradually becoming detached. One has to associate himself with devotees, those who are in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. One should search out a society dedicated to Kṛṣṇa consciousness and learn how to discharge devotional service. In this way he can cut off his attachment to the material world. One cannot become detached from the attraction of the material world simply by dressing himself in saffron cloth. He must become attached to the devotional service of the Lord. Therefore one should take it very seriously that devotional service as described in the Twelfth Chapter is the only way to get out of this false representation of the real tree. In Chapter Fourteen the contamination of all kinds of processes by material nature is described. Only devotional service is described as purely transcendental.

The words paramaḿ mama are very important here. Actually every nook and corner is the property of the Supreme Lord, but the spiritual world is paramam, full of six opulences. The Kaṭha Upaniṣad (2.2.15) also confirms that in the spiritual world there is no need of sunshine, moonshine or stars (na tatra sūryo bhāti na candratārakam), for the whole spiritual sky is illuminated by the internal potency of the Supreme Lord. That supreme abode can be achieved only by surrender and by no other means.

[melvin]

Wherever there`s Krsna consciousness there you will find God, his abode, asssociates, admirers, as well as His enemies. "Whenever there two or more who are gathered in My name, there I`m also with you," to quote saktyavesa avatar Jesus.

Our true form depends on who you were thinking at the time death. That`s why it`s advisable to chant always Hare Krsna for we don`t really know when we are going to die or how we will die since it`s God who will eventually award us correspondingly with a body suitable to what were thinking at the time of death.

If by chance we remember to chant God`s name Krsna at the time of death, then that spiritual body He will give us shall be our true form in the next life.

Narada Muni was Upabarhana in his past sinful life but in the next life he became a great sage because as Upabarhana, he was able to chant the name Krsna prior to his death even if he was cursed by the Prajapatis to become a sudra in the next life.

[bija]

Some thoughts...

 

Jiva and spiritual form:

 

Form saturated in rasa is dependant upon hladini shakti. Sri Krsna (Rasa Raja) without Srimate Radharani does not exist (such has never been - that is why Srila Prabhupada requested all paintings of Sri Krsna not exclude Srimate Radharani), as she is always in his heart. Similarly the liberated jiva (marginal soul) attains a spiritual form (in Goloka) upon accepting service to hladhini shakti. The pure devotee always residing in Sri Krsna's heart.

 

Spiritual love is inconceivable in that, how can someone reside in anothers heart. In the gross (material bodily conscious) form of love one wishes to gratify and have all things claimed in his/her heart, thus attempting to control the environment (our fallen situation presently). (Remember Srila Bhaktisiddhanta said 'dont try to see the Deity, try to get the Deity to see you'.)

 

In the spiritual concept the lover chooses to live in the others heart. Sri Krsna solely has claim to possess all things within his heart! The supreme spiritual autocrat! And Sri Radha is the personifaction of Maha-bhava - the seen. Srimate Radharani is described as having entered complete divine madness loosing herself fully in Sri Krsna. Jaya Gauranga!

 

Why in Gaudiya philsophy is Sri Krsna considered the Original source? Rasa Raja!

...One should be captivated by this information.... Srila Prabhupada

 

 

Being of marginal potency is no loss! Love is much more magnanimous. I remember when I first read Srila Prabhupada's books finding that I was jiva, marginal energy, I was deeply saddened. With a feeling of incompleteness. Little did I know the depth of love of Sri Krsna! Maybe our initial falldown had to do with envy...envy of a deeper reality...so instead we decided to make our own reality and claim, and try to be Lords. Looking externally...

 

What a blunder! When infact a deeper reality was never to be feared, but instead, that deeper being was our inheritance from the Supreme Love - a being saturated in Love. Hladini shakti!

 

Material existence has always been full of fear. The hurdle now is to realize fear is a temporary illusion of maya. Acceptance, surrender, and humility being three major keys...

 

Jaya Srimate Radharani!

 

[bija]

 

However, if they care to read Prabhupada’s books, they will find this material world is ALL the living entities dream, ONLY EXPERIENCED by sub-consciously leaving their real perpetual body in Goloka and then 'entering' the unlimited dream identities or vessels within the dreams of Maha Vishnu...

 

One can only enter it as a bodiless consciousness after being the living entity sub-consciously leaves Goloka or is projected from their real bodily form in Goloka.. posted by Sarva

I am sorry Sarva, I do not wish to disturb you, but this idea of residents of Goloka having a subconscious (with interest other than Krsna) is wrong, and has never been supported by sastra.

 

The spiritual potency is fully that, spiritual and fully cognizent. There is no unconscious or subconscious psychology or levels. The concepts of unconscious and subconscious realities are related to the psychology and make of the material mind (subtle body) and material reality.

 

Such states (or mind) do not exist in Goloka and have nothing to do with the Lord's internal energy (spiritual transcendence). They are related to maya or external energy - mind, intelligence and false ego. And are of this relative world.

 

 

Nothing is lost or gained in Goloka Vrndavana or the perpetual Kingdom of God because everything is always fully perfect in the mood of loving selfless devotional relationships with Krishna. In actual fact,we are always there but some of us are 'thinking' or 'dreaming we are not there but live in a world made up of our own imagination. posted by Sarva

Spiritual forms of Goloka are complete spiritual substance, parts of the superior energy:

This inconceivable energy is called the superior energy, para sakti. Though one, this intrinsic energy takes three forms: jnana (samvit), bala (sandhini) and kriya (hladini).

Surely any dreaming in that land would be about Krsna?? And be of the superior energy (spiritual jnana - cognizence) (spiritual bala - structure) and (spiritual hladhini - devotional service).

 

I am sorry Sarva, I cannot accept your philosophy. But ofcourse I accept your sincere service mood.

[RamanaDasi]

Quote:

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>.

However, if they care to read Prabhupada’s books, they will find this material world is ALL the living entities dream, ONLY EXPERIENCED by sub-consciously leaving their real perpetual body in Goloka and then 'entering' the unlimited dream identities or vessels within the dreams of Maha Vishnu...

 

One can only enter it as a bodiless consciousness after being the living entity sub-consciously leaves Goloka or is projected from their real bodily form in Goloka.. posted by Sarva

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

 

 

You think Gopis in Goloka are dreaming they are enjoying eating bacon and eggs?

 

And beefsteak?

 

With a bottle of wine on the side?

 

Gopis are subconsciously thinking about other things besides Krishna. That is what you say.

 

Maybe for a spot of relaxation the Gopis are coming into material life so they can be watching Oprah on TV? Is it so?

 

You also forgot to give your explanation about why the Gopis who were saying "I am Krishna" must fall down into material life. Your Iskcon idea is that those Gopis become dogs, hogs, camels. It is so, isn't it?

 

You Iskcon people are nuts.

[chandu_69]

 

Quote:

 

 

Gopis are subconsciously thinking about other things besides Krishna. That is what you say.

 

 

No reference whatsoever about gopis in the original post.

 

No need to get worked up about a minor thing.Obviously gopis are on a different plane compared to ordinary people.

 

An ordinary bhaktha is not interested in semantics.No need to fight over semantics.That is my opinion for sure.

Peace.

[ranjeetmore]

I Think bija sums it up quite precisely.

 

No ONE FALLS down from the spiritual world.

 

I'm beginning to think...some pple actually manipulate Srila Prabhupad's lectures.

[Amlesh]

 

No ONE FALLS down from the spiritual world.

 

Exactly, they come to serve Hari.

[Sarva gattah]

Srila Prabhupada- "There are many energies, but they have been divided into three principal ones: the external energy, the internal energy, and the marginal energy. We living entities are the marginal energy. Marginal means that we may remain under the influence of the external energy or we may remain under the influence of the internal energy, as we like". From "The Journey of Self Discovery - His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

In other words, the marginal living entities secondary conscious projection is known as the baddha-jiva soul within the mahat-tattva.

The marginal living entity actually has two aspects of consciousness; one is 'eternal form' of sat, cit, ananda, Vigraha or ones perpetual Krishna Conscious bodily form known as nitya-siddha, while the other is a non-Krishna conscious dreaming bodiless state called the nitya-baddha

The nitya siddha body is imperishable and never fades away, due to being eternally established within the 'eternal present' of Goloka, while the other is a dreaming bodiless state that enters the mahat tattva and is given form according to desires of self interest.

The living entities, as their nitya-siddha body, are properly situated within the Lord’s internal energy as a perpetual bodily servant that is known as ones perpetual 'Svarupa'.

When the marginal living entity misuses their independence and tries to act as enjoyers or lords; they are transferred to the material energy or mahat-tattva, not as their nitya siddha body, but rather, as a secondary dreaming consciousness called nitya-baddha.

Srila Prabhupada - “The living entity is called marginal energy. But when the falldown has taken place for the conditioned soul is very difficult to ascertain. Therefore, two classes are designated: eternally liberated (NITYA-SIDDHA) and eternally conditioned (NITYA-BADDHA). But for arguments sake, a living entity being marginal energy, he can't be eternally conditioned. The time is so unlimited that the conditioned souls appear to be eternally so, but from the philosophical view he cannot be eternally conditioned. Letter Srila Prabhupada sent to Upendra prabhu

Srila Prabhupada - "The Supreme Lord has TWO energies, material and spiritual. The living entities are marginal energy. As marginal energy, a person may be under the control of the material energy (Maha-maya) or the spiritual energy (Yoga- maya). SB 3.23.10 pp.

Srila Prabhupada - "Because the living being can appear either in matter or in spirit, the jiva is called the marginal potency" CC Adi 5.41 pp.

Srila Prabhupada - "The living entity (jiva-atma) takes different positions - sometimes he merges into the dark material nature and identifies himself with matter, and sometimes he identifies himself with the superior spiritual nature. THEREFORE, he is called the Lords marginal energy. " BG 8.3 pp.

Srila Prabhupada - "The fact is that individual living entities are eternally part and parcel of the Supreme Lord, and both of them are very intimately related as friends. But the living entity has the tendency to reject the sanctions of the Supreme Lord and act independently in an attempt to dominate the supreme nature, and BECAUSE HE HAS THIS TENDENCY; he is called the marginal energy of the Supreme Lord. " BG 13.23 pp.

In the above verses, Srila Prabhupada explains that marginal energy means the TENDENCY of the living entity to reject the sanction of the Lord and act independently.

So, marginal energy, or tatastha-shakti, is NOT a particular place or area in the universal creation where souls drop from, but rather it denotes the NATURE of the jiva-soul.

It refers to a living entity with the nature of independently choosing between the Lord's two energies. Therefore, the living entities DO NOT expand from the marginal energy, but their natures are called marginal. This marginal energy (jiva-soul) is an expansion of Lord Krishna, who is the origin of the living entities.

Srila Prabhupada - "If marginal energy (the living entity with its independent nature) chooses to be in contact with the external energy of the Lord, it still remains marginal. (See CC Adi 2.96)

If the marginal living entity chooses to go back to the internal energy (the spiritual world), it still keeps his marginal independence. It does not change his nature into internal energy and becomes Vishnu-tattva. Although the living entities are equal in quality to the internal potency of Krishna (which is spiritual), they nevertheless keep their marginal independence. Jiva-tattva (the marginal energy) does not turn into Vishnu-tattva (the internal energy), otherwise the living entity would turn into God Himself as in Mayavadi philosophy.

Marginal energy can be situated either in the external or internal energy of the Lord and according to the living beings free will and contact with either the material or spiritual energies, the living being is situated in proportionally higher or lower levels of existence. If marginal energy can freely choose to be situated in either external or internal energy, then marginal energy (because of his free will) can also choose to leave either external or internal energy."

Here are excerpts from two letters the Srila Prabhupada sent to Upendra prabhu regarding our 'original position'. One letter is from 1968 and one from 1969.

Srila Prabhupada - "Regarding your question, in one sense both you and Mahapurusa are right. The fact is that after the dissolution of the Universe the living entities remain in slumber within Maha Visnu, and again when the creation takes place they are impregnated in their original position and they come out in different species of life. By gradual evolutionary process, when they come to the human form there is good chance of getting out of the repeated birth and death, and one can enter into the Spiritual Realm. But if one loses this chance he is again put into the cycle of birth and death. The conditioned souls are always within the Maha Visnu Form, whereas the liberated souls in Vaikuntha, they are engaged in the service of the Lord. Constitutionally every living entity, even if he is in the Vaikuntha Loka, has chance of falling down”.

Srila Prabhupada - "Therefore the living entity is called marginal energy. But when the falldown has taken place for the conditioned soul is very difficult to ascertain. Therefore two classes are designated: eternally liberated and eternally conditioned. But for arguments sake, a living entity being marginal energy, he can't be eternally conditioned. The Time is so unlimited that the conditioned souls appear to be eternally so, but from the philosophical view he cannot be eternally conditioned. Since we cannot trace out when we have become conditioned, there is no use of arguing on this point. Better to take care first how we can get rid of this conditional existence; as much as a patient should take care for treating his disease more, and less waste his time in finding out the cause of his disease".

Please offer my blessings to the others. I hope this will meet you in good health."

A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

 

Tatastha

The Lord has three basic energies: internal, external, and marginal.

The living entities do not only belong to the marginal energy, they ARE the marginal energy or tatastha sakti that is embodied in their original full constitutional foundation, which is expressed as nitya-siddha in their innovative perpetual position.

Tatastha is another name for jiva tattva, marginal living entity, or jiva soul that also incorporates the jiva souls ability to choice the land or Goloka and the mahat-tattva or the ocean. The marginal living entity is therefore known as "tatastha sakti"

The nitya-baddha consciousness is the result of the jiva executing and projecting its free will to ignore Krsna and chase their own plans of existence in the maha-tattva.

When the baddha-jiva becomes frustrated with the mahat-tattva, and still denies their eternal existence with Krsna as nitya-siddha, he enters into a dormant inactive state of his own dreaming consciousness that is known as the impersonal aspect of the Brahmajyoti. This state of dormant consciousness is ONLY achieved after being liberated from the mahat-tattva, which is really and factually the Impersonal aspect of the Spiritual Sky or Brahmajyoti, or their own individual consciousness.

That means, although we are properly situated within the Lord’s internal energy in our ‘svarupa’ body eternally beyond mundane time and space, we always have the propensity to misuse our independence.

This means we may choose to try and act as enjoyers or lords of all we purvey that immediately disqualifies us from being aware of our ‘svarupa’ body, and instead try to lord it over Krishna’s material energy that is under the jurisdiction of the sleeping and dreaming Maha-Vishnu.

Srila Prabhupada- "You are already in the spiritual sky, but you are simply covered. Just like the sun is already there. You are also already there…Try to understand. Actually we are not fallen therefore, at any moment we can revive our Krishna consciousness. ". Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture given in London, on July 30, 1971

Srila Prabhupada - "You are ever-liberated (nitya-siddha). The sky is always spiritual, but it is sometimes overcrowded with cloud, Actually, you are NOT conditioned (nitya-baddha). You are thinking. Just like in the dream that tiger is eating you. You were never eaten by tiger. There is no tiger. So we have to get out of this dream". (Lecture on Sri Caitanya-Caritamrta, Adi-lila 7.108--San Francisco, February 18, 1967)

Srila Prabhupada - "So to go to God or Krishna means you will have to acquire your original, spiritual body. The spiritual body is already there, but we are now covered by this material body". by His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada Homburg, Germany, June 22, 1974”

this is even difficult to understand without realization. Even my local Temple president says now is the present but actually there is no present in the material world, it's always the past, what you reading is always in the past. Wow, the Goloka realm of the eternal present tiime of love and devotion is inconceivable while we are trapped in this material body and mind.

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<TABLE style="MARGIN-LEFT: 13.6pt; WIDTH: 100%; mso-cellspacing: 0cm; mso-padding-alt: 4.5pt 4.5pt 4.5pt 4.5pt" cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 0.75pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 18pt; BORDER-TOP: #666666 0.75pt solid; PADDING-LEFT: 18pt; BACKGROUND: #e0e0e0; PADDING-BOTTOM: 4.5pt; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 0.75pt solid; PADDING-TOP: 4.5pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 0.75pt solid">Originally Posted by Ananta Sesa

But why do then Srila Prabhupada say in his books that there is past, present and future here in the material world?

 

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

The way I understand this from reading Srila Prabhupada's books is that the eternal present means exactly that. In Vaikuntha there is no past or future

Where as in the material world the present instantly turns into past. This is the point Gauragopala dasa is trying to make

He is comparing the 'eternal present' of the Krsnaloka with the so called presentof the material world.

In this comparison, there is no present in the material world because the present in the material world is actually the past. Isn't this a fact? What is the NOW, the present is now the past.

Hence, there is only the reality of past and future in the material creation because the present is always slipping into and becoming the past

Srimad Bhagavatam 11.22

"The mind, bound to the reactions of fruitive work, always meditates on the objects of the senses, both those that are seen in this world and those that are heard about from Vedic authority. Consequently, the mind appears to come into being and to suffer annihilation along with its objects of perception, and thus its ability to distinguish past and future is lost".

Notice the missing of the word present. The purport does not explain this

Suchandra's explanation is also correct. There is present but it is instantly the past in the material world.

Srila Bhaktivenode Thakur explains futher

Paramahamsa babaji - "The three divisions of time are: 1. past, 2. present and 3. future. These divisions refer to material time, time within the realm of the illusory potency maya. In the spiritual world the present exists eternally.

In the spiritual world the past and future do not exist.

Lord Krsna and the individual spirit soul exist in that eternal present. In this way the individual soul is eternal and his original nature, which is his pure love for Lord Krsna, is also eternal.

Talk of the individual soul's being 'created' or 'fashioned' is a misconception, mistakenly imposing the time patterns of the inanimate material world on a spiritual entity.

The atomic individual soul is spiritual and eternal. He existed before his entrance into the material world. Because in the spiritual world there is no past or future, whatever exists there exists in an eternal present.

Therefore the soul and its nature are both eternal. They exist in that eternal present.

I am only describing this in words. Your understanding will depend on your ability to understand the pure spiritual world. I can only give a hint here.

In spiritual trance you will be able to see all this directly. The logic and argument of this material world will not help you to understand it. Your ability to directly perceive the spiritual world beyond the realm of matter will depend on how much you can loosen the shackles of material bondage.

In the beginning you will see your own pure spiritual form. By again and again chanting the spiritual and holy names of Lord Hari, you will come to understand the nature of the soul.

By practicing astanga-yoga or following the path of the impersonalists you will not be able to see the pure spiritual nature. By directly serving Lord Krsna you will be able to understand the eternal nature of the soul.

Therefore you should chant the holy names of Lord Hari always and with enthusiasm. Only by chanting the names of Lord Hari will you make advancement in spiritual life". From Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura's Sri Jaiva-dharma Chapter Two The Soul's Eternal Nature is Pure and Everlasting

What is the nature of material time?

The material world is forever changing, so which events are future, which present, and which past?

Future events become present, present events become past, and past events sink further and further into the past

Quote:

<TABLE style="MARGIN-LEFT: 13.6pt; WIDTH: 100%; mso-cellspacing: 0cm; mso-padding-alt: 4.5pt 4.5pt 4.5pt 4.5pt" cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 0.75pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 18pt; BORDER-TOP: #666666 0.75pt solid; PADDING-LEFT: 18pt; BACKGROUND: #e0e0e0; PADDING-BOTTOM: 4.5pt; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 0.75pt solid; PADDING-TOP: 4.5pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 0.75pt solid">Originally Posted by suchandra

past, present and future is only transcendental activity.

 

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>Which means there is no past or future in Vaikuntha because that transcendental service is eternally present. This is a paradox to our materially conditioned mind

Quote:

<TABLE style="WIDTH: 100%; mso-cellspacing: 0cm; mso-padding-alt: 4.5pt 4.5pt 4.5pt 4.5pt" cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 0.75pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 18pt; BORDER-TOP: #666666 0.75pt solid; PADDING-LEFT: 18pt; BACKGROUND: #e0e0e0; PADDING-BOTTOM: 4.5pt; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 0.75pt solid; PADDING-TOP: 4.5pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 0.75pt solid">The way I understand this from reading Srila Prabhupada's books is that the eternal present means exactly that. In Vaikuntha there is no past or future

Where as in the material world the present instantly turns into past. This is the point Gauragopala dasa is trying to make

 

He is comparing the 'eternal present' of the Krsnaloka with the so called present of the material world.

 

In this comparison, there is no present in the material world because the present in the material world is actually the past. Isn't this a fact? What is the NOW, the present, is now the past.

 

Hence, there is only the reality of past and future in the material creation because the present is always slipping into and becoming the past

 

What is the nature of material time?

 

The material world is forever changing, so which events are future, which present, and which past?

 

Future events become present, present events become past, and past events sink further and further into the past.

 

Hare Krishna

 

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Srila Bhaktivenode Thakur "Because in the spiritual world there is no past or future, whatever exists there exists in an eternal present". Jaiva-dharma

That eternal present does not exist in the material world because what ever we experience at present immediately becomes the past therefore, technically, on one hand, there is no present in the material world. Whatever act we perform now is immediately a past event. However, theoretically on the other hand, for us to perform self-centred actions, be it good or bad, there is that flickering passing moment of the present. Hence on this platform in the Jaiva-dharma, material time is explained as past present and future

Srila Prabhupada - "Established means re-establish. It is already established. That is called svarupa-siddhi. When one becomes perfectly spiritually realised, then he understands what is his relationship is. This relationship is eternal".

 

Srila Prabhupada - "We all have come down from Vaikuntha some millions of years ago” Lecture August 6, 1973

[ranjeetmore]

But Sri Gauranga Prabhu has categorised as Nitya baddha and He used the termed

'anaadi kala bahirmukha'.

 

The eternal relationship is irrelevant in this context.Your incessant quotes about it is frankly not helping matters.(no offense)

[Sarva gattah]

 

 

Try to understand what Prabhupada is telling us.

 

Srila Prabhupada - "You are already in the spiritual sky, but you are simply covered. Just like the sun is already there. You are also already there…(In Vaikuntha) so actually we are always in the spiritual world. But when you forget Krishna by the cloud of illusion, then that is material”.

Srila Prabhupada – “Try to understand. Actually we are not fallen therefore, at any moment we can revive our Krishna consciousness. As soon as we understand that, "I have nothing to do with (This biological body or vessel and the material creation). I am simply Krishna's servant. Eternal servant. That's all". In a Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture given in London, on July 30, 1971

We do not evolve in 'consciousness' to the Krsnaloka realm, with the foolish idea we have never been to Krsnaloka. Srila Prabhupada also clearly rejected that idea as impersonal because we are actually already there in Krsnaloka and ALWAYS have been.

How is that possible??

It is a fact that we are ALL ALREADY in Krsnaloka in our FULL eternal Krsna Conscious state as our nitya-siddha-svarupa body. However, presently that 'AWARENESS' is covered by our selfish non-Krsna conscious desires. We therefore cannot see and act in that fully eternally developed consciousness of who WE really are because of our choice and free will to forget Krsna (which means we also forget the body we serve Krsna as).

Srila Prabhupada – “Established means re-establish. It is already established. We have got different types of relationship. That is called svarupa-siddhi. Svarupa-siddhi. (Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture, December 7, 1974, Bombay)

This means there is NO evolution of consciousness in regards to our original perpetual bodily identity because that body already eternally exists, we simply have to regain the memory of who we really are.

We simply have to once again regain the 'awareness 'of who we really are.

We do not grow consciously out of a plain sheet of dormant consciousness and evolve to reach Krsnaloka, but rather, are always are in the process of regaining or re-establishing who we are originally.

In the material creation, we are simply in the process of recovering who we really are

Even if we did fall out of the impersonal Brahmajyoti, then long, long, long before that we were ALL in Krsnaloka in full 'awareness' of our reall bodily nitya-siddha identity.

Srila Prabhupada – "When you are perfect in spiritual life, you will understand what is your relationship with Krishna automatically. That is called svarupa-siddhi”. (Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture, December 7, 1974, Bombay)

Srila Prabhupada - "You are liberated. You are liberated. Simply just a cloud has covered you. Drive away the cloud .. You are ever-liberated”

Srila Prabhupada - “Originally everyone is nitya-siddha. nitya-siddha krsna-bhakti ’sadhya’ kabhu naya sravanadi-suddha-citte karaye udaya Every living entity originally nitya-siddha, “. Srimad-Bhagavatam Class 7.9.4– Mayapur, February 18, 1977

Srila Prabhupada – “You have got original relationship with Krishna. Nitya-siddha Krishna-bhakti. . (Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture, December 7, 1974, Bombay)

Srila Prabhupada - “Everyone has got a particular relationship with Krishna in his original constitutional position that is called svarupa-siddhi". (Nectar of Devotion lecture, 20 October 1972, Vrindaban)

Srila Prabhupada - “Because he falls down from Brahma-sayujya (impersonal liberated condition ), he thinks that may be his origin, but he does not remember that long, long, long, long ago before that even, he was with Krishna”. Letter to Australian devotees 1972 under Madhudvisa Swami

A devotee -"Original spiritual form in Vaikuntha" means a form that exists in the "present moment". (You should be happy that we have achieved a meeting of the minds on this point.) But does it mean a form, which we had in the past, then lost and will regain - although we will regain a form that always exists in the "present moment".

Answer – Nothing is lost or gained in Goloka except for our memory and 'awareness' of who we really are. Everything is set eternally there is in a state of the living entities 'full potential originality as a nitya siddha embodied devotee of Krsna or Vishnu', which means ALL living entities or jiva sparks, have a Svarupa body that is eternally unchangeable, eternally youthful, eternally original and eternal a person with bodily form sat, chit, Ananda, VIGRAHA.

In this way, without argument, we should accept Srila Prabhupada’s conclusion and understand without any doubts, that we ALL came down from Goloka long, long, long ago, not as our nitya-siddha-svarupa body, but as a dreaming projection known as the living entities nitya-baddha consciousness.

Srila Prabhupada - “You are already in the spiritual sky, but you are simply covered. Just like the sun is already there. You are also already there…Try to understand. Actually we are not fallen therefore, at any moment we can revive our Krishna consciousness." Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture given in London, on July 30, 1971

Srila Prabhupada - "You are ever-liberated (nitya-siddha). The sky is always spiritual, but it is sometimes overcrowded with cloud, actually, you are NOT conditioned (nitya-baddha). You are thinking. Just like in the dream that tiger is eating you. You were never eaten by tiger. There is no tiger. So we have to get out of this dream". Lecture on Sri Caitanya-Caritamrta, Adi-lila 7.108--San Francisco, February 18, 1967

Srila Prabhupada - "Actually we are not fallen therefore, at any moment we can revive (Regain, re-establish, wake up from the dream, remember who we really are as a body eternally in a state of originality) our Krishna consciousness. As soon as we understand that (my svarupa body is always in Krsnaloka), "I have nothing to do with (the material world and its bodily vessels my sub-conscious fallen nitya-baddha condition is housed in). I am simply Krishna's servant. Eternal servant. That's all". Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture given in London, on July 30, 1971

 

 

FALLING TO THE MATERIAL WORLD

 

It is a fact that no one falls from Vaikuntha" (Bhag. 7.1.35, purp. by Srila A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada)

Yes, that is exactly right as very clearly explained as follows

Srila Prabhupada - 'No one falls from the spiritual world or Vaikuntha planet, for it is the eternal abode”. (Bhag. 3.16.26, purp.) This clearly means our nitya-siddha svarupa body can NEVER leave Krsnaloka or Vaikuntha and that we only dream, think or imagine we leave.

Srila Prabhupada – “This material creation is the spirit soul's dream. Actually all existence in the material world is a dream of Mahā-Viṣṇu, as the Brahma-saḿhitā describes –

Srila Prabhupada – “This material world is created by the dreaming of Mahā-Viṣṇu. The real, factual platform is the spiritual world, but when the spirit soul wants to imitate the Supreme Personality of Godhead, he is put into this dreamland of material creation”. 4.29.83.http://vedabase.net/sb/4/29/83/en

[melvin]

 

I Think bija sums it up quite precisely.

 

No ONE FALLS down from the spiritual world.

 

I'm beginning to think...some pple actually manipulate Srila Prabhupad's lectures.

 

Yes, it`s true we never fall down from the spiritual world because we are all spiritual beings but being clothe with a material body, we fall down to the material world when we eat say, a fruit or when we go to the bathroom to urinate and defecate. As spiritual beings, we eat and drink with our eyes and see with our hands. But we fall down when we use our eyes to sleep, our mouths to feed, our urethras to urinate and bowels to defecate.

 

[Sarva gattah]

No–one falls from Goloka, we only 'think' and 'dream' we fall

The Spiritual Sky or its other words 'the Brahmajyoti' or the Brahman, is full of Spiritual Vaikuntha planets and eternally embodied nitya-siddhas (which is ALL of us)

However, within that same Spiritual Sky or Brahmajyoti, is the mahat tattva creation of Maha Vishnu, Who provides a 'mahat tattva' or material body to all nitya-baddha-jivas that enter His temporary material creation after they have sub-consciously extended, projected and withdrawn themselves from their their nitya-siddha body in Goloka or Vaikuntha.

Only within the mahat-tattva can the impersonal aspect of the Brahmajyoti (impersonal Brahman) exist.

Technically, the entire mahat-tattva is impersonal.

One can only enter it as a bodiless conscious spark that ORIGINATES from Goloka-Vrndavana. This secondary sub-conscious state (nitya-baddha) is projected and originates from ones real bodily form (nitya-siddha) in Goloka.

So it is very clear here that all living entities originate from Goloka.

The nitya-baddha-jiva is actually a formless individual until Maha Vishnu provides such ‘consciousness’ with a bodily vessel. the Mayavadis or impersonalists cannot understand this.

All they see is the mahat tattva and the formless spark of conscious. This is due to denying the fact there is a Goloka, which is the origin of ALL living entities and their beginingless and endless nitya-siddha body

[Sarva gattah]

 

Sometimes the Gopis think "I am Krishna"

 

But they don't fall down into material life. Not even in their dreams.

Yes, that is true but in this case, it is intense love due to separation. Therefore it is very common on this circumstance that one or even many of the gopis may pretend to be Krishna in order to remember Him and ease the pangs of separation for other gopis as well.

This kind of love felt in separation is the highest love because it is love expressed due to dominant missed association as Prabhupada’s Nectar of Devotion teaches.

The dreaded selfish sub-conscious fall down from Goloka, where the living entity is actually not only imitating Krishna but trying to be Krishna, IS due to envy.

How can this happen even in Goloka?

The answer is free will and the ability is choose. Without that choice, we would be mindless androids or slaves.

Choice allows us to FOREVER increase our love for Krishna in our unique individual way that makes us the marginal living entity we eternally are. Or if we choose, we can forget Krishna and the body we serve Krishna as and ‘do our own thing’ in the mahat-tattva (material creation)

In this way, unlike the gopis who most NEVER fall down, even though they have the free will to choose so if they desire, we have foolishly chosen to try and imitate Krishna in Goloka selfishly and not out of love as the gopis do. It is important to understand 90% of the inhabitants in Goloka and Vaikuntha never ever fall down because it is simply their choice to never ‘sub-consciously’ stop ‘thinking’ and ‘dreaming’ of serving Krishna and his dear pure devotees.

Therefore it is our selfish sub-conscious desires that make us unfit to remain aware of Goloka that expel us, that expell our awareness of who we really are from Goloka and the memory of our perpetual Krishna Conscious nitya-siddha body .(who we really are eternally) becomes forgotten due to being lost in our mistaken dreams and thoughts

So only the awareness of who we are is expelled from Goloka and NOT our Spiritual svarupa body.

Therefore always remember that our vigraha, svarupa or nitya-siddha spiritual body can never fall down from Goloka, only our mistaken dreams, thoughts and desires do and take us (our awareness of reality) to the material creation where we can have a shot at being god.

This sub-conscious state of restricted awareness is known as the nitya-baddha-jiva or baddha-jiva that refers to the living entities inferior self or secondary self which is a sub-conscious extension of their full eternal bodily identity and potential in Goloka.

What is explained above is the correct understanding of the origin of the ‘jiva soul’ that is really understood by Krishna’s mercy and never by jnan (knowledge) on its own

[RamanaDasi]

 

In this way, unlike the gopis who most NEVER fall down even though they have the free will to choose so if they desire, we have foolishly chosen to try and imitate Krishna in Goloka. It is important to understand 90% of the inhabitants in Goloka and Vaikuntha never ever fall down because it is simply their choose to never ‘sub-consciously’ stop ‘thinking’ and ‘dreaming’ of serving Krishna.

 

Do you think some Gopis fall down from Goloka?

 

A simple yes or no is what I want.

[Sarva gattah]

 

Do you think some Gopis fall down from Goloka?

 

A simple yes or no is what I want.

 

There is always free will, thats up to them, but no, they never falldown from that exalted level but it is not impossible for them to fall down, any jiva-tattva can fall down. Prabhupada has told us this but has said they do not come to this dangerous material creation unless it's for lila or pastime

 

For real love to exist, there must be that choice to be with Krishna or with ones own self centred desires of grandur. That ability to choose must be there otherwise the gopis and all the other inhabidants of Goloka and Vaikuntha are robots, androids or the borg (assimulated into the Kingdom of God)

 

There must be freewill to express love, that means choices

[RamanaDasi]

It seems you are saying of the Gopis: "no, they never falldown from that exalted level".

 

By "that exalted level" I understand you to mean to say they never forget Krishna even when they are dreaming.

 

This is true. Only jivas fall.

 

Thakura Bhaktivinoda wrote this about the fall of the jiva from his original position where the jiva was a "atomic portion of that sun's ray".

 

========

 

 

The soul, according to Sri Chaitanya is an atomic part of the Divine Soul. It is a sort of God's power to produce beings who are spiritual in essence but liable to be enthralled by 'Maya', when they forget their position as eternal servants of the Deity. God here is compared with the sun and the souls are said to be the atomic portions of that sun's rays unable to stand freely, unless they are protected by another competent attribute of God's power. By the word part is not meant to be portions cut out of a piece of stone by the axe, but is meant to be like one lamp lighted from another, or gold produced from an alchemist’s stone as believed by the ancients. The souls are also compared with separate atomic emanations of the burning fire. Each soul has drawn from its Fountainhead a proportionate share of the attributes and consequently a small proportion of the free will. These souls are naturally located between the chit jagat, and mayik jagat. Those who chose to serve their God were protected from fall by the interference of the hladini attribute of the Supreme chit sakti. They have been admitted as eternal servants of the Deity in various ways. They know not the troubles of maya and the karma-chakra or the rotative principles of mayik action and its result. Those who wanted to enjoy were grasped by maya from the other side. They are in maya’s karma-chakra, ending only when they again see their original position as servants of the Deity. These souls, whether liberated from maya or enthralled by her, are separate responsible beings depending on the Deity. Hari is the Lord of maya, who serves Him at His pleasure. The soul or jiva is so constructed as to be liable to be enthralled by maya in consequence of want of power when unassisted by the hladini-sakti of the Deity. Hence, there is a natural and inherent distinction between God and jiva which no pantheistic maneuver can annihilate. P lease avoid this misleading question, "When were these jivas created and enthralled?" The mayik time has no existence in spiritual history, because it has its commencement after the enthrallment of jivas in matter, and you cannot, therefore, employ mayik chronology in matters like these.

 

===

- direct quote of words written IN ENGLISH by Thakura Bhaktivinoda in his book Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu, His Life and Precepts

 

Thakura Bhaktivinoda says souls start out "between the chit jagat and mayik jagat". That is, in a tatastha state where they are "compared with separate atomic emanations of the burning fire".

 

From there, some souls choose to go into Vaikuntha. Bhaktivioda wrote: "Those who chose to serve their God were protected from fall by the interference of the hladini attribute of the Supreme chit sakti. They have been admitted as eternal servants of the Deity in various ways."

 

Those souls enter Vaikuntha as newcomers.

 

"Those who wanted to enjoy were grasped by maya from the other side."

- Bhaktivinoda Thakura.

 

The meaning is very clear. You Iskconions do not accept what Thakura Bhaktivinoda wrote IN ENGLISH in his books. That is your bad decision and choice.

[Sarva gattah]

 

It seems you are saying of the Gopis: "no, they never falldown from that exalted level".

 

By "that exalted level" I understand you to mean to say they never forget Krishna even when they are dreaming.

 

Yes, that’s right.

 

As for the rest of the quote, if you count in the 'eternal present' of Goloka that has no past or future, meaning everything and every 'body' is already there, the full eternal position and potential of our tatastha or marginal position is ALWAYS in Goloka.

So if our full potential is already there in Goloka due to the infallible state of the ‘eternal present’, isn't it obvious it is from there we originate even though it is said we are from the position of tatastha. (Simple meaning to choose between the ocean and the land or Krishna and the mahat-tattva)

Do you understand what I am trying to say mataji?

Tatastha is not a place or realm within the universe, it is the natural state of the jiva, ultimately meaning 'having the ability to choose this side or that side, to stay in Goloka or enter the mahat tattva.

We are both correct but are seeing this from different perspectives.

In other words, because of the simultaneous one a different aspect of Lord Caitanya’s teachings, we are always in Goloka (because of the eternal present) and tatastha-sakti simultaneously.

Srila Prabhupada never gave that much emphasis on the word tatastha in his books and preferred to use the word marginal more often in his books, e.g the marginal living entity

[Sarva gattah]

Tatastha does not refer to a place; it does not possess a locative meaning in the sense of being in a particular spot. Tatastha has an ontological meaning.

The jiva is a sakti of the Lord, it exists as neither Cit Sakti nor as Maya Sakti, we exist in between these two categories of saktis, and therefore we are called Tatastha or marginal. The place where water, as in a river an ocean or lake, where it meets the land, that is called tata.

The Cit Sakti is represented by the water and the Maya Sakti us represented by the land. Since we are neither the Maya Sakti nor the Cit Sakti, neither the water nor the land, we are called tatastha, or the in-between the water and the land.

The tide can cause us to be submerged in water or the tide can retreat and we can become left on the land. The jiva can be influenced and come under the dominion of the Cit Sakti or of the Maya Sakti.

Either was the constitutional position of the jiva is tatastha sakti, the marginal potency, on the margin or border between 2 other potencies.

Sri Caitanya Caritamrta Madhya 20.108-109

TRANSLATION

It is the living entity’s constitutional position to be an eternal servant of Krsna because he is the marginal energy of Krsna and a manifestation simultaneously one with and different from the Lord, like a molecular particle of sunshine or fire. Krsna has three varieties of energy”.

Yes, presently we are all dreaming as our nitya-baddha secondary self within the dreams of Maha-Vishnu while our authentic constitutional eternal self or foundation is perpetually a nitya-siddha devotee in Goloka serving Krishna?

Some interesting quotes are as follows -

Bhaktivinoda Thakura. – “However, because of contact with matter, the imprisoned soul loses the memory of his original spiritual form in Vaikuntha . . . material rasas are perverted reflections of the soul’s original spiritual rasas.’ Prema-pradipa, p. 83

Srila Prabhupada - ‘‘Only the purified soul can attain the perfection of associating with the Personality of Godhead in complete bliss and satisfaction in his constitutional state. Whoever is able to renovate such devotional perfection is never again attracted by this material world, and he never returns.’ Srimad Bhagavatam 2.2.31

Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Maharaj – “It is the jivas who are the attendants in His Sports. They become attached to matter, having deviated from their own essential nature as the result of their desire for enjoyment. But when again the soul . . . gains true wisdom of the transcendental region of God . . . he begins to get back his pure essential nature . . .’ Sri Chaitanya’s Teachings, page 323.

Srila Prabhupada - ‘ ‘By the grace of Krishna, we have complete freedom. Because the Lord is kind to us, we can live anywhere, either in the spiritual sky or in the material sky, upon whichever planet we desire. However, misuse of this freedom causes one to fall down into the material world and suffer the threefold miseries of conditioned life. The living of a miserable life in the material world by dint of the soul’s choice is nicely illustrated by Milton in Paradise Lost. Similarly, by choice, the soul can regain paradise and return home, back to Godhead.’ Caitanya-caritamrita, Adi Lila

5.22, Purport

Srila Prabhupada - ‘The original home of the living entity and the Supreme Personality of Godhead is the spiritual world. In the spiritual world both the Lord and the living entities live together very peacefully. Since the living entity remains engaged in the service of the Lord, they both share a blissful life in the spiritual world. However, when the living entity, misusing his tiny independence, wants to enjoy himself, he falls down into the material world.’ (Srimad-Bhagavatam

4.28.54, purport)

Srila Prabhupada - ‘Every living being, out of many, many billions and trillions of living beings has a particular relationship with the Lord eternally. That is called svarupa. By the process of devotional service, one can revive that svarupa, and that stage is called svarupa-siddhi–perfection of one’s constitutional position’. Introduction to the Bhagavad Gita as it is

Srila Prabhupada - ‘We are also expansions of Krishna’s form. These jivas, the living entities… Krishna is expanding in two ways, svamsa and vibhinnamsa. Svamsa means Vishnu. One extension, expansion, is just directly He Himself. And another expansion is separated from Him. That separated from Him (marginal) we are’. Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture 1.3.1-3 — San Francisco, March 28, 1968

Srila Prabhupada: Anyone, even in this world or spiritual world, he has got the propensity of coming down by misusing his little independence. It is nothing like that, that if you become president, you are secure. (Lecture, Atlanta, March 2,

1975)

So this dreaming condition (in the material creation or mahat-tattva) is called non-liberated life (inferior nitya-baddha bodiless conscious condition), and this is just like a dream. Although in this material calculation it is a long, long period, as soon as we come to Krishna consciousness (remembering our superior nitya-siddha-svarupa perpetual body) then this period is considered as a second”.

So many misunderstand our eternal constitution or eternal devotional ’svarupa’ foundations.

Paramahamsa: So we can come to the spiritual world and return?

Srila Prabhupada: Yes.

Paramahamsa: Fall down?

Srila Prabhupada: Yes. As soon as we try, “Oh, this material world is very nice,” “Yes,” Krsna says, “yes, you go . . . Otherwise what is the meaning of free will?’ Morning Walk, Cheviot Hills Golf Course May 13, 1973 Los Angeles

Ravindra Svarup Prabhu ‘ ‘When we “return” to the spiritual world, it will only be to discover that indeed we never left, and there has always been right here. We are right now with Krsna, for Krsna consciousness is our svarupa, our eternal identity and perpetual constitutional position. We need only wake up and see where we are.

All this is known to Srila Prabhupada and to the acaryas. They know how one can fall from a place no one falls from, enter into an ignorance that has always been, and return to a place one never actually left.

Because such matters are inconceivable to mundane minds, when teachers speak of such things their words may seem contradictory. But in one way or another they all tell the whole truth’ Ravindra Svarup dasa web site

Dhirasanta: Srila Prabhupada was walking in St. James’s Park, tapping his cane on the ice that had formed overnight. At one point he asked,

‘What does this mean?’

We looked at each other and wondered what we should say. Prabhupada asked again,

‘What does this mean?’

We couldn’t fathom what Prabhupada meant. Suddenly he said,

‘Ice is maya. The original constitution of water is liquid, but when it comes in contact with freezing weather it becomes hard ice. And when there is ice, there is the possibility that you may slip.’

Prabhupada may have been breaking the ice because he didn’t want anyone to slip. He continued the analogy, explaining that the heart becomes hard, but just as the sun rises and melts the ice, in the same way the continued chanting of the Hare Krishna maha-mantra softens the heart and reinstates the individual in his natural constitutional position.

If one is in an imperishable atmosphere then the very meaning of ‘imperishable’ is no one ever leaves as that constitution or foundational Krishna Conscious body they eternally are in Goloka or Vaikuntha. If they choose to reject Krishna however, they can only leave Goloka ’sub-consciously’ like one leaves their present body while dreaming.

The imperishable aspect of the jiva is ones eternal ’svarupa Krishna Conscious body’ or ones perpetual nitya-siddha constitutional position.

 

Therefore the ‘perishable’ (nitya-baddha consciousness) is nothing other than a dreaming condition emanating from ones imperishable marginal identity while unconscious to their full constitutional nitya-siddha identity, which is everlastingly beyond the mundane decaying effect of time, past, present and future in the material creation (mahat-tattva) and ‘always’ in Goloka due to the 'eternal present'.

Bhaktivinoda Thakura explains this in his Jaiva Dharma, chapter 15 reads as follows, explaining what imperishable means, which is beyond the confines of material time and space:

Babaji: The space and time of the spiritual world are completely different from the space and time you are experiencing in this inert world.

 

Material time is divided into past, present and future.

But in the spiritual world there is only the one imperishable present time.

Every event in the spiritual world is ever present. Whatever we speak or describe in the material world is under the influence of material space and material time.

Therefore, whenever we make statements such as, ‘the Jivas were created’, ‘thereafter the Jivas became bound by maya’, ‘the spiritual world became manifest’, ‘there is no aspect of maya in the constitution of the Jiva’, material time influences our language. These kinds of statements are unavoidable in our conditioned state.

For this reason, no statement concerning the Jiva and spirit is exempt from the jurisdiction of material time.

Feelings of past present and future naturally creep in. therefore, while experiencing the import of the descriptions of the spiritual world an spiritual objects, people who are devoted to pure thinking experience the changeless nature of present time.

Be very careful in this respect. Giving up the unwanted sense which is unavoidable (due to the influence of material time) try to experience the spirit…….. I know at present you will not be able to digest these subtleties so quickly.

As the spiritual influence will increase in your heart, so the spiritual understanding will easily increase, distinguishing it from the material conception.

You body is inert and so are all the bodily activities, but you are not; you are an atomic conscious being. The more you are able to understand yourself, the more you will experience yourself as superior to the material world.

Therefore, even if I explain it and you listen, you will not able to grasp it. The more you awaken your spiritual consciousness by taking shelter of the holy name, the more you will experience the spiritual world.”

(Bhaktivinoda Thakura. Jaiva Dharma, chapter 15.).

[RamanaDasi]

I understand what you say:

 

Sophistry

[bija]

 

These souls are naturally located between the chit jagat, and mayik jagat. Those who chose to serve their God were protected from fall by the interference of the hladini attribute of the Supreme chit sakti. quoted by Ramana dasi

 

 

This inconceivable energy is called the superior energy, para sakti. Though one, this intrinsic energy takes three forms: jnana (samvit), bala (sandhini) and kriya (hladini).

 

Thank you Ramana Dasi. Through one's self realization in bhakti yoga such knowledge will be known. The Lord's spiritual energy is one...made up of samvit, sandhini, and hladhini. Sandhini being described as bala, and the vessel of kriya, for example the Lord's cushion etc. Cit and hladhini being the intrinsic knowledge of what is (complete knowledge)...of service to bliss (the highest bliss). Once again given by Sri Sri Nityananda-Caitanya. Who knew well why Srimate Radharanis' eternal expansions never fall. What to say of the jiva souls who took shelter of Nityananda Balarama! We (in this prison house) did not! Therefore we will receive greatest benefit of first talking shleter of Nityananda Naam.

 

Srila Bhaktisiddhanta has said if one even once hears the name of Nityananda his liberation is sure! Now we know why. This jumping into Radha-Krsna tattva without understanding the tattva has never been recommended...not even by Srila Prabhupada.

 

 

 

Quote:

<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(102, 102, 102); padding-left: 3ex; padding-right: 3ex;" bgcolor="#e0e0e0"> Originally Posted by RamanaDasi

Do you think some Gopis fall down from Goloka?

A simple yes or no is what I want.

</td> </tr> </tbody></table>

There is always free will, thats up to them, but no, they never falldown from that exalted level but it is not impossible for them to fall down, any jiva-tattva can fall down. Prabhupada has told us this but has said they do not come to this dangerous material creation unless it's for lila or pastime. posted by Sarva

 

 

 

Gopies are expansions of Sri Radha (hladini shakti)...they are not jiva shakti like us. Guru tattva will descend outside of Gokula, due to mercy, being an expansion of Nityananda-Balarama...from whom all creation flows. The exalted saviour.

 

It is essential to understand this crucial point if one claims to be a follower of Sri Caitanya.

 

In another thread the question was put forward, what is our original body, where is it? We must be careful using material words to describe the inconceivable cit potency. Anyhow here we go... The jiva intrinsically is complete, being a part of the supreme complete. There for all is within that minute spark. The realization of that complete potency is called self realization. As we progress in humility (by not degrading hladhini (gopies) as jiva shakti, but instead become servants of cita (svarupa) shakti in total)...then and only then will we discover the supreme beauty of jiva shakti of Godhead. This beauty being simple...the nature of servant of the servants. This being the fundamental of Sri Caitanya's grace a and mercy given to us jiva shakti particles.

 

Jiva Jago!

 

 

God here is compared with the sun and the souls are said to be the atomic portions of that sun's rays unable to stand freely, unless they are protected by another competent attribute of God's power. By the word part is not meant to be portions cut out of a piece of stone by the axe, but is meant to be like one lamp lighted from another, or gold produced from an alchemist’s stone as believed by the ancients. The souls are also compared with separate atomic emanations of the burning fire. Each soul has drawn from its Fountainhead a proportionate share of the attributes and consequently a small proportion of the free will. These souls are naturally located between the chit jagat, and mayik jagat. Those who chose to serve their God were protected from fall by the interference of the hladini attribute of the Supreme chit sakti. They have been admitted as eternal servants of the Deity in various ways. (bhaktivinoda thakura) quoted by ramana dasi

A term to describe the word mayavada in gaudiya understandings is that which is taken from maya. These subconscious dreaming philosophies are simply that....maya.

[Sarva gattah]

 

Gopies are expansions of Sri Radha (hladini shakti)...they are not jiva shakti like us.

 

It is essential to understand this crucial point if one claims to be a follower of Sri Caitanya.

 

That's not exactly correct. To put it simply, there are only two kinds of living entities, Vishnu tattva and jiva tattva

 

While some gopis ARE expansions of Radharani, others are jiva-tattva.

 

Just like the Pancha Tattva, four members are Vishnu tattva while the fifth is jiva tattva

 

Chaitanya Mahaprabhu is the combination Radha and Krishna Himself, and is the highest manifestation of God in the combined form of the Supreme couple.However Krishna is the original

 

Nityananda is Krishna's first personal expansion.

 

Advaita Acharya is a combined incarnation of Lord Vishnu & Lord Shiva (Harihara).

 

Gadadhara is an incarnation of Krishna's internal energy.

 

Srivasa is Krishna's pure devotee Narada Muni who is the only jiva tattva in the Pancha tattva.

[bija]

Panca Tattva - five complete truths. CC Ādi 7: Lord Caitanya in Five Features

 

Sarva we connect in (complete ever-new realization) in due course when our sthayi-bhava becomes manifest to us, through the buddhi given by gurudeva or super-soul.

 

It is a great mystery and grace how the pure devotee (through the grace of the complete panca tattva) can manifest eternal service to Sri Radha. Panca tattva is the pinnacle of theistic devotional science.

 

I will finish now...because I have not realized the exquisite service of Srimate Radharani yet. Siddha-deha and sthayi-bhava....

 

Thanks for allowing me to share without offence. Please forgive me if I have.

 

CC Ādi 7.1: Let me first offer my respectful obeisances unto Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu, who is the ultimate goal of life for one bereft of all possessions in this material world and is the only meaning for one advancing in spiritual life. Thus let me write about His magnanimous contribution of devotional service in love of God.

CC Ādi 7.2: Let me offer glorification to the Supreme Lord Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu. One who has taken shelter of His lotus feet is the most glorified person.

CC Ādi 7.3: In the beginning I have discussed the truth about the spiritual master. Now I shall try to explain the Pañca-tattva.

CC Ādi 7.4: These five tattvas incarnate with Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu, and thus the Lord executes His sańkīrtana movement with great pleasure.

CC Ādi 7.5: Spiritually there are no differences between these five tattvas, for on the transcendental platform everything is absolute. Yet there are also varieties in the spiritual world, and in order to taste these spiritual varieties one should distinguish between them.....

http://vedabase.net/cc/adi/7/en

[bija]

Bhaktivedanta VedaBase: Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta Ādi 7.15

ei tina tattva, — 'sarvārādhya' kari māni

caturtha ye bhakta-tattva, — 'ārādhaka' jāni

SYNONYMS

ei tina tattva — all three of these truths; sarva-ārādhya — worshipable by all living entities; kari māni — accepting such; caturtha — fourth; ye — who is; bhakta-tattva — in the category of devotees; ārādhaka — worshiper; jāni — I understand.

TRANSLATION

The three predominators [Caitanya Mahāprabhu, Nityānanda Prabhu and Advaita Prabhu] are worshipable by all living entities, and the fourth principle [Śrī Gadādhara Prabhu] is to be understood as Their worshiper.

PURPORT

In his Anubhāṣya, Śrī Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī Ṭhākura, describing the truth about the Pañca-tattva, explains that we should understand that Lord Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu is the supreme predominator and that Nityānanda Prabhu and Advaita Prabhu are His subordinates but are also predominators. Lord Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu is the Supreme Lord, and Nityānanda Prabhu and Advaita Prabhu are manifestations of the Supreme Lord. All of Them are viṣṇu-tattva, the Supreme, and are therefore worshipable by the living entities. Although the other two tattvas within the category of Pañca-tattva — namely, śakti-tattva and jīva-tattva, represented by Gadādhara and Śrīvāsa — are worshipers of the Supreme Lord, they are in the same category because they eternally engage in the transcendental loving service of the Lord.

[Sarva gattah]

Srila Prabhupada - ‘We are also expansions of Krishna’s form. These jivas, the living entities… Krishna is expanding in two ways, svamsa and vibhinnamsa. Svamsa means Vishnu. One extension, expansion, is just directly He Himself. And another expansion (vibhinnamsa) is separated from Him. That separated from Him (marginal) we are’. Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture 1.3.1-3 — San Francisco, March 28, 1968