Lord Krishna

[gokulkr]

 

 

Lord Krishna

 

 

Although Lord Krishna is often considered the 8th Avatar of Lord Vishnu He(Lord Krishna) is actually the Supreme personality of Godhead. He is actually the source of all avatars and is the cause of all causes. This is confirmed in various vedic sastras and is the conclusion of vedic uttama siddhanta which is the Srimad Bhagavatam.

 

The main objective of Gita is to help people struggling in the darkness of ignorance cross the ocean of transmigration and reach the spiritual shore of liberation while living and working in the society. The central understanding of the Bhagavad Gita is to not only do your duty but ultimatly surrender unto the Supreme personality of Godhead. Sri Krishna. By doing your duty in the thought of Lord Krishna and ultimatly offering everything unto him.

The congregational chanting of the maha-mantra, Hare Krishna, Hare Krishna, Krishna Krishna, Hare Hare, Hare Rama, Hare Rama, Rama Rama, Hare Hare, is accepted by the Vedas as the most effective means of self-purification in this age.

 

When one realizes Him by His grace, the knots of ignorance are loosened, all doubts and confusion are dispelled, and all Karma is exhausted.

 

 

 

Early life:

Shri Krishna, according to belief based on ancient scriptures and astrological estimations was born on either the 18th of July or 21st July 3228 B.C.

 

Krishna was the 8th son born to princess Devaki of Mathura and her husband Vasudeva. The then king Kansa, who was Devaki's brother, had forcefully acquired the kingdom by imprisoning his father Ugrasena. He had been told that he'll be killed by the eighth son of Devaki, fearing which, he imprisoned the couple. Not willing to take a risk, he killed Devaki and Vasudev's first six children. Upon Lord Krishna's appearance(birth) Vasudev had transported Lord Krishna to the house of Maharaj Nanda and Mother Yashoda in exchange for the female child born there.

 

Krishna was raised in Gokul by his foster parents Yasoda and Nand. He had two other siblings - Balarama and Subhadra. Balarama was Devaki's seventh child who was transferred to the womb of Rohini, Vasudev's first wife. Subhadra was born to Rohini and Vasudev much after the birth of Krishna and Balarama.

 

In Gokul, Nand was the head of the family and of all cow-herders. Nand, along with Yasoda settled in Vrindavan. That is where hundreds of Krishna's childhood stories are based. Folk tales of Krishna as a "maakhan chor" (butter thief), "bansi wala" (flautist), savior of villagers from demons like Kaaliya Naag (A vicious, multi hooded gigantic cobra that poisoned the waters of river Yamuna), Pootna (Demon sent by Kansa to kill Krishna), all originate from Vrindavan. This is also where Krishna lifted a hill called Govardhan parvat on his little finger and defeated God Indra (the king of devs and the God of rain) to protect land and people of Vrindavan.

 

In Krishna's youth, his romance with local girls called Gopis has been called "raas leela" and was later source of inspiration to poets for centuries and continues to be till date.

 

 

 

Middle Life:

When Krishna grew up, he returned to his kingdom in Mathura. He participated in a wrestling competition and on beating all other participants, challenged his uncle Kansa to fight. Kansa was killed in this battle. Krishna then reinstated his grandfather Ugrasena as the rightful king of Yadavas and was celebrated as a popular prince.

 

At this time, he got to know the Pandav princes from the Kuru kingdom and became very good friends with Arjuna (one of the 5 Pandav prices) and other princes.

 

Later, he along with his Yadava subjects, moved to the city of Dwaraka (modern day Gujarat) and established his kingdom there.

 

During his time as king in Dwarka, he married the princess of Vidarbha named Rukmini, after abducting her from her marriage ceremony. Krishna supposedly had sixteen thousand one hundred and eight wives, of which the chief were Rukmini, Jambavati and Satyabhama. He had married sixteen thousand maidens, held captive with a demon named Narakasura. He had to do that to save their dignity and allow them a respectable status in society.

 

 

Bhagavad Gita and War of Kurukshetra

 

Krishna was a cousin of Pandavas and Kauravas. When the war between Pandavas and Kauravas seemed inevitable, Krishna made an equal offer to both Pandavas and Kauravas - either himself alone (with a condition that he won't lift a weapon) or his entire army. Duryodhana (the prince of Kauravas) chose the mighty Dwaraka army and Arjuna (the Pandav prince) chose Krishna himself. Krishna offered to be his charioteer as that role didn't involve him lifting a weapon.

 

The battle broke off. Arjuna, on the battlefront, saw massive armies on both sides. He saw people that he loved like his teachers Dronacharya, Bhishma Pitamah and others standing opposite him. He realised that he'll soon be fighting against the same people. "How can I do that?" he thought. "How can I kill the people I owe so much to?". Krishna at this point, talked to Arjuna and explained the concept of "aatma", the soul and how the soul can neither be created nor destroyed.He exhorts Arjun to fight valiantly regardless of consequences. What Krishna said to Arjuna on the battlefield of the Kurukshetra war formed the Bhagwat Geeta.

 

With the help of Lord krishna,the Pandavas won the battle with Kauravas.

 

 

 

Later Life:

After the Kurukshetra war, Krishna lived at Dwarka for the next 36 years of his life. At a local festival, a fight broke out amongst the subjects of his kingdom - Yadavas. The fight was so brutal, that it resulted in the extermination of thousands of Yadavas. Krishna's elder brother Balaram then went into eternal yoga and left his body.

 

Krishna quit all worldly desires and started living in the forests, meditating. One day, a hunter looking for a prey, mistook Krishna's left foot for a deer and fired and arrow, injuring Krishna fatally and ultimately resulting in his demise.

 

According to the scriptures of Mahabharata, Krishna's demise occurred because of a "shraap" (curse) given to him by mother of Kauravas - Gandhaari. She couldn't bear the death of her sons after the battle of Kurukshetra (Mahabharata) and held Krishna responsible for not doing enough to stop the war when he could have. Krishna had acknowledged the "shraap" stating that his responsibility was not to stop the war, but to assist the righteous people.

 

After executing His mission on earth i.e after removing the burden of earth from unrighteous kings and installing Yudhistar as King of whole world, He ended His past times on this mortal world and returned to His own spiritual planet Goloka Vrindhavan.

 

GEETA SAAR (The Bhagwat Gita summarised)

 

Bhagwan (Lord) Shri Krishna (Shri or Shree used for respect in Hindi and Sanskrit languages) talks to Arjuna, the warrior who stands in front of his cousin Duryodhan's army. The Kurukshetra war is about to begin and Arjuna stands to fight and kill his teachers, family and friends. He feels saddened by the thought of war against his loved ones and loses will to fight. That's when Shri Krishna, Arjuna's charioteer recites the Bhagwat Geeta to him, explaining to him the concept of God, Aatma (the soul) and matirialism.

 

* Krishna says to a distressed Arjuna: Why do you worry unnecessarily oh great warrior? What are you scared of? Who can kill or destroy you? A soul is never born, so it never dies. Your soul can neither be created nor destroyed and there's nothing more temporary than your body.

 

* Whatever happened in the past, happened for the best; whatever is happening, is happening for the best; whatever will happen in future, will happen for the best. Do not repent the past, do not worry for future, concentrate on your present.

 

* What or who did you own, that makes you shed tears? What did you bring with you, that you fear losing? What did you give birth to, that you fear destruction of? You didn't bring anything. Whatever one takes, one must return to God. Everyone came empty handed and will therefore die, empty handed.

 

* Whatever belongs to you today, belonged to someone else yesterday and it will belong to some one else tomorrow. Don't be illusioned by maya (the material substance). Maya is the root cause of all pain and misery.

 

* Change is the rule of nature. What one understands to be death is actually life itself. One moment you are the owner of millions and in the very next moment you become a pauper.

 

* Your body doesn't belong to you and neither do you belong to this body. Body is composed of five elements- Fire, Water, Air, Earth and Sky; one day it will dissolve in these elements.

 

* Offer yourself to the Almighty Lord. One who offers him/herself unconditionally to me, gains freedom from fear, worry and despair.

 

Names of Krishna

 

The word krsna in language Sanskrit means "black", "dark" or "dark-blue",which in the modern day Hindi is Kala and was used to describe someone with a dark skin. Shri Krishna is portrayed in dark blue colour in most paintings and idols.

 

Krishna also means the "all attractive one".

 

Lord Krishna is known by many other names and titles, which reflect his many qualities, phases in life and forms.

 

There are 108 names and titles of Krishna from the Gaudiya Vaishnavism tradition. They can be found at: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...mes_of_Krishna . It is believed that Krishna has well over 1000 names. Some of the more popular names are:

 

1. Krishna - The Supereme all-attractive form of Godhead.

2. Parthasarathi - The chariteer of Arjuna.

3. Vasudeva - The son of Vasudeva.

4. Devakinanadana - The son of Mother Devaki.

5. Nandanandana - The son of Nanda Maharaja.

6. Yashodanandana - The son of Mother Yashoda.

7. Madhusudhana - The of the demon Madhu.

8. Narayana - The shelter of all human beings.

9. Govinda - The giver of pleasure to cows and senses.

10. Keshava - The killer of kesi demon.

11. Madhava - The husband of the Goddess of Fortune.

12. Ranchor - The one who flied from fighting.

13. Janardhana - The maintainer of all living entities.

14. Lakshmipathi - The husband of Goddess Lakshmi.

15. Hrishikesa - The owner of all senses.

16. Mukunda - The Giver of liberation.

17. Damodara - One who was bound by ropes through His belly.

18. Hari - He takes away all distress.

19. Acyuta - One who never falls down.

20. Ajita - The unconquerable.

21. Yogeshwara - master of mystic powers.

22. Jagatpati - The master of the cosmic manifestation.

23. Yadunandana - The son of Yadu dynasty.

24. Brahmanaya-deva - He is worshipped by all brahmins.

25. Jananivasa - He is present in everyone's heart.

26. Vamana - The drawf-incarination, who taught a lesson to King Bali.

27. Trinayana - The seer of the three worlds.

28. Shripati - The husband of the Goddess of Fortune Laksmi.

29. Sankarshan - The Supreme shelter and attractor all living entities.

[o.s.subramanian]

Can you tell me what language Krishna spoke?

 

O.S.Subramanian.

[Tirisilex]

Sanskrit.. He spoke sanskrit

[kaisersose]

 

Can you tell me what language Krishna spoke?

 

O.S.Subramanian.

 

Sanskrit was one of main literary languages of ancient India - especially the North. However, spoken languages in the North/NorthWest region belonged to the family of Prakrit languages. These vernaculars were widely spoken by Kshatriyas and other non- Brahmana classes. A form of Proto-Dravidian language was spoken too, but mostly in East, Central and South India.

 

These Prakrit languages evoled into ApaBrahmsha dialects which eventually formed the modern day North Indian languages - Hindi, Urdu, Gujarathi, etc.

 

And as is the case now, many people would have been familiar with more than one language.

 

Cheers

[raghu]

 

Although Lord Krishna is often considered the 8th Avatar of Lord Vishnu He(Lord Krishna) is actually the Supreme personality of Godhead. He is actually the source of all avatars and is the cause of all causes. This is confirmed in various vedic sastras and is the conclusion of vedic uttama siddhanta which is the Srimad Bhagavatam.

 

There is only one shloka in the bhagavata which appears at face value to say that - the ete chamsha kalAH pumsaH verse 1.3.28. What other "various vedic sastras" unambiguously support the assertion that Krishna "is actually the source of all avatars?"

[raghu]

In response to:

Although Lord Krishna is often considered the 8th Avatar of Lord Vishnu He(Lord Krishna) is actually the Supreme personality of Godhead. He is actually the source of all avatars and is the cause of all causes. This is confirmed in various vedic sastras and is the conclusion of vedic uttama siddhanta which is the Srimad Bhagavatam.

 

 

There is only one shloka in the bhagavata which appears at face value to say that - the ete chamsha kalAH pumsaH verse 1.3.28. What other "various vedic sastras" unambiguously support the assertion that Krishna "is actually the source of all avatars?"

 

No takers? Is this yet another of those factoids we are supposed to just accept because the iskcon people say so?

[melvin]

Narada Muni has declared: That all vedic rituals, mantras etc are summarized into only just 8 words, " Hare Krsna Hare Krsna Krsna Krsna Hare Hare."

 

--

[raghu]

 

Narada Muni has declared: That all vedic rituals, mantras etc are summarized into only just 8 words, " Hare Krsna Hare Krsna Krsna Krsna Hare Hare."

 

--

 

Really? Where did he declare that? Please quote your sources.

[melvin]

 

Really? Where did he declare that? Please quote your sources.

 

 

In the Narada Pancaratra. It`s a statement from Narada Muni found inside the book, Teachings of Lord Chaitanya, Chapter 18, page 203.

 

------

[bija]

 

...Lord Caitanya then told Prakasananda Sarasvati that because He

received the order from His spiritual master, He was constantly chanting

Hare Krishna, Hare Krishna, Krishna Krishna, Hare Hare/ Hare Rama, Hare

Rama, Rama Rama, Hare Hare. “As a result of this chanting,” the Lord

said, “I sometimes become very impatient and cannot restrain Myself

from dancing and laughing or crying and singing. Indeed, I become just

like a madman. When I first wondered whether I had become mad by

chanting this Hare Krishna, Hare Krishna, Krishna Krishna, Hare Hare/ Hare

Rama, Hare Rama, Rama Rama, Hare Hare, I approached My spiritual

master and informed him that I had gone mad by chanting Hare Krishna,

Hare Krishna, Krishna Krishna, Hare Hare/ Hare Rama, Hare Rama, Rama

Rama, Hare Hare. Thus I asked him what was My actual position.”

In the Narada-pancaratra it is stated:

 

esho vedah shad-angani

chandamsi vividhah surah

sarvam ashtaksharantahstham

yac canyad api vanmayam

sarva-vedanta-sararthah

samsararnava-taranah

 

“All Vedic rituals, mantras and understanding are compressed into eight

words: Hare Krishna, Hare Krishna, Krishna Krishna, Hare Hare.” Similarly, in

the Kalisantarana Upanishad it is stated:

 

hare krishna hare krishna

krishna krishna hare hare

 

hare rama hare rama

rama rama hare hare

iti shodasakam namnam

kali-kalmasha-nasanam

natah parataropayah

sarva-vedeshu drisyate

 

“The sixteen words—Hare Krishna, Hare Krishna, Krishna Krishna, Hare Hare/

Hare Rama, Hare Rama, Rama Rama, Hare Hare—are especially meant

for counteracting the contaminations of Kali. To save oneself from the

contamination of Kali, there is no alternative but the chanting of these

sixteen words.”... http://www.mybloop.com/go/e75t6L

maybe you can translate the sanskrit for us raghu?

[raghu]

 

maybe you can translate the sanskrit for us raghu?

 

It's a little difficult to translate something when it hasn't even been transliterated properly. Having said that...

 

 

In the Narada-pancaratra it is stated:

 

esho vedah shad-angani

chandamsi vividhah surah

sarvam ashtaksharantahstham

yac canyad api vanmayam

sarva-vedanta-sararthah

samsararnava-taranah

 

“All Vedic rituals, mantras and understanding are compressed into eight

words: Hare Krishna, Hare Krishna, Krishna Krishna, Hare Hare.”

 

Anyone can see that the above is a gross MISTRANSLATION. The words "Hare Krishna, Hare Krishna..." are nowhere in the Sanskrit. Perhaps there might be something in context that leads one to interpret this way, but definitely nothing in the Sanskrit as given to lead one to infer the Hare Krishna mantra.

 

 

Similarly, in

the Kalisantarana Upanishad it is stated:

 

hare krishna hare krishna

krishna krishna hare hare

 

hare rama hare rama

rama rama hare hare

iti shodasakam namnam

kali-kalmasha-nasanam

natah parataropayah

sarva-vedeshu drisyate

 

“The sixteen words—Hare Krishna, Hare Krishna, Krishna Krishna, Hare Hare/

Hare Rama, Hare Rama, Rama Rama, Hare Hare—are especially meant

for counteracting the contaminations of Kali. To save oneself from the

contamination of Kali, there is no alternative but the chanting of these

sixteen words.”

 

Several points here:

 

1) the KU as quoted here gives the Sanskrit as hare rAma hare rAma... hare kR^iShNa hare kR^iShNa... the translation, which reverses the order of the names, is therefore incorrect. One cannot simply change the mantras at whim and still call them vedic mantras.

 

2) the KU's authenticity is not beyond dispute; it belongs to a group of upaniShad-s that are considered later in origin compared to the shrutis. Most Vaishnavas do not quote from them. Ironically, mayavadis do accept this upanishad, which gives them something in common with the gauDIyas.

 

3) My original request was for gokul to substantiate his view that Krishna "is the source of all the avatArs." Nothing you quoted has actually supported that in any way.

[Kyros]

Brahma Samhita, Garga Samhita, not to mention Bhagavad Gita, specifically chapter 10 verse 8 point out Krishna to be the source of everything.

 

There are two translations of the Kali-Santarana Upanisad, one where the mantra starts with Hare Krishna, and another where it starts with Hare Rama. Both can be found on the internet somewhere, just use google.

 

Obviously someone has corrupted the text. I personally go with the Hare Krishna starting since it's the one that gained the most popularity, and still growing

[melvin]

:deal:

There is truth to the statement that all vedic rituals, mantras and understanding are compressed into only 8 words: Hare Krsna Hare Krsna Krsna Hare Hare. For how come Lord Chaitanya have gone crazy just chanting the Hare Krsna maha mantra?

--------------------------

[sambya]

 

...........sarvam ashtaksharantahstham.............

 

 

one can see the words ashta ( eight ) , akshara (letters) antah ( inside ) , sthitam (situated) in the sloka.

 

that would mean eight letters not eight words . akshara means letters . moreover hare krishna mahamantra is composed neither of eight words nor eight letters. ancient texts while describing mantras use terms like dwaadash-akshar manta(twelve lettered mantra) , ashtakshar mantra( eight lettered mantra) etc .

 

for example " om namo bhagavate vasudevaya" is a twelve lettered mantra(dwadash akshar). om-na-mo-bha-ga-va-te-va-su-de-va-ya . before and during chaitanya mahaprabhu these mantras were more poular than mahamantra itself . thats why we find mahaprabhu getting initiated with a similar mantra instead of mahamantra wich is the usual norm today.

 

i think in this sloka such a mantra is suggested .

[bija]

 

“All Vedic rituals, mantras and understanding are compressed into eight

words: Hare Krishna, Hare Krishna, Krishna Krishna, Hare Hare.”

 

Yes Sambya. Here Srila Prabhupada, from Teaching of Lord Caitanya book, is talking in context from Caitanya's teachings to Prakasananda (if I recall correctly). You are right he was initiated into a certain mantra followingng the tradition of the sect he took inititation from.

 

Caitanya is expressing, what the Goswami's expressed later...that all is contained in the realization of Krsna (krsna consciousness). Yes, he received diksha from his initiating Guru, but he also took siksha. This concept of the importance of siksha has since been handed down in the tradition stemming from him.

 

Thanks Sambya.

[sambya]

 

“All Vedic rituals, mantras and understanding are compressed into eight

words: Hare Krishna, Hare Krishna, Krishna Krishna, Hare Hare.”

 

 

that is an abstract statement made in numerous occasion .just as vaishnavs say that bhagavatam or sikashtak or mahamantra is the extract of vedic teachings , the tantrics declare that tantra shastra is the perfection of vedic knowledge , so on and so forth .

 

you have to understand the inner meaning of this satement.

 

the essence of hindu thought lies in self realization and seeing god personally. all other things are considered subordinate to this. and ultimately all shastras proclaim realization to be the highest .

 

even in the famed kama sutra , vatsayan mentions that artha is better than kama and dharma is better than artha .but in the end moksha rules.

 

so it automatically follows that the purpose of all shastras is realizing god . this mahamantra is actually a practical way of realising god , so it is the doorway to god . and being doorway to god it is verily the essence and condensed form of all shastras.

[bija]

 

Yes Sambya. Here Srila Prabhupada, from Teaching of Lord Caitanya book, is talking in context from Caitanya's teachings to Prakasananda (if I recall correctly). You are right he was initiated into a certain mantra followingng the tradition of the sect he took inititation from.

 

Caitanya is expressing, what the Goswami's expressed later...that all is contained in the realization of Krsna (krsna consciousness). Yes, he received diksha from his initiating Guru, but he also took siksha. This concept of the importance of siksha has since been handed down in the tradition stemming from him. bija

 

 

...Then, to instruct everyone, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Sri

Narayana, the supreme instructing spiritual master of everyone, accepted

initiation from Sripada Puri, with an initiation mantra of ten syllables.

The Lord circumambulated Sripada Puri, and said, "I have surrendered My life

to You, please always look upon Me with a merciful glance, so I may always

float in an ocean of love of Krsna."...

 

http://www.indiadivine.org/audarya/iskcon-internal/363699-sri-caitanya-mahaprabhu-accepts-initiation-sri-isvaracandra-puri.html

[bija]

 

you have to understand the inner meaning of this satement.

 

the essence of hindu thought lies in self realization and seeing god personally.

I agree, actually I have been contemplating these concepts alot lately, during my soul searching. I appreciate what you are trying to express...

 

 

this mahamantra is actually a practical way of realising god , so it is the doorway to god . and being doorway to god it is verily the essence and condensed form of all shastras.

Indeed it is the door way of God and the essence of man (krsna). Some may see the door as seperate from the end game...but as you know the Gaudiya's say Naam is both the goal and the means.

 

I was listening to Joseph Campbell lecture on myth today and he explained metaphor very well...

 

One skeptic said, 'oh, metaphor and myth is a lie'.

 

Campbell said 'no!'

 

He explained it like this, 'In shamanic culture the shaman sees himself as a deer'. Campbell asked, 'is he really the deer?'

 

The skeptic said 'ofcourse not!'

 

Campbell said, 'you are wrong!' 'The shaman is the deer....that is what metaphor really means.'

 

********************************************************

 

In the Holy Name of Gauranga (Hare Krsna/Radha Krsna)...is all shakti. Gopies...everything! The bhakta serves these gopies...

 

Is the realized bhakta really a gopi when he chants the Name. Most likely yes (if madhurya is the stayi-bhava).

 

This is what Prabhupada and Caitanya are pointing to in the above verses.

 

********************************************************

 

Sambya, studying Joseph Campbell and Myth is helping me to see, many new things...without watering down my faith. Even though it is testing, for me personally it is necessary to expand vision...to be able to accomodate diversity.

 

I have been following on and off (not fully) the discussions lately about Durga etc. We need to follow our hearts and centre of bliss...

 

Om Shanti (Non-Dual Supreme Truth).

[bija]

 

3) My original request was for gokul to substantiate his view that Krishna "is the source of all the avatArs." Nothing you quoted has actually supported that in any way. by raghu

Thanks for replying to my question Raghu...

 

I guess Raghu the area of ones heart and higher self does not need substantiation from an outward source (in due course of one's personal journey). Unless ofcourse one chooses to enter philisophical debate to convince another, then the use of sastric quotes comes into play.

 

To be honest that way is right out of my league.

 

I would rather find my heart more and share from there. Ofcourse, that may not convince anyone else.

 

I know you know (your way)...cheers.

[raghu]

 

Brahma Samhita, Garga Samhita, not to mention Bhagavad Gita, specifically chapter 10 verse 8 point out Krishna to be the source of everything.

 

There are two translations of the Kali-Santarana Upanisad, one where the mantra starts with Hare Krishna, and another where it starts with Hare Rama. Both can be found on the internet somewhere, just use google.

 

Obviously someone has corrupted the text. I personally go with the Hare Krishna starting since it's the one that gained the most popularity, and still growing

 

1. Brahma Samhita and Garga Samhita are obscure smritis acceptable only to gauDIyas.

 

2. gItA does say that Krishna is the source of everything in the same sense that multiple shrutis and smritis say that Vishnu or some form of Vishnu is the source of everything. However, the gItA does NOT say that Krishna is the source of Vishnu or other Vishnu-avatAra-s.

 

3. If the text is corrupted as you claim, then it is ipso facto unreliable as an independent authority for obvious reasons.

[raghu]

 

I guess Raghu the area of ones heart and higher self does not need substantiation from an outward source (in due course of one's personal journey). Unless ofcourse one chooses to enter philisophical debate to convince another, then the use of sastric quotes comes into play.

 

 

Well, it was gokulkr who originally made the claim that:

 

 

Although Lord Krishna is often considered the 8th Avatar of Lord Vishnu He(Lord Krishna) is actually the Supreme personality of Godhead. He is actually the source of all avatars and is the cause of all causes. This is confirmed in various vedic sastras and is the conclusion of vedic uttama siddhanta which is the Srimad Bhagavatam.

 

So, why claim that "Krishna is the source of all avatars" to be a fact that is based on "various vedic sastras" if in reality it is just a matter of the heart and not based on "vedic sastras?"

[bija]

 

So, why claim that "Krishna is the source of all avatars" to be a fact that is based on "various vedic sastras" if in reality it is just a matter of the heart and not based on "vedic sastras?"

In my opinion sastra is simply to confirm what takes place in the heart. Guru external will confirm the heart activity through sastric evidence. So in once sense Gokulkr is simply serving his fellow souls of similar understanding.

 

It is my understanding that realization was first heard in the heart by Lord Brahma. We are in connection with that Lord Brahma, so the heart is not dependant upon any external factor.

 

The Puranas etc are that which is remembered and written down, so the Gaudiya rasa literature etc is an aid to confirm the process, which will eventually manifest in the heart. That bhava of the heart is the ultimate evidence and manifestation of one's true connection with inner Reality/Truth.

 

Remember Raghu we are talking about the core of man, which is centred in bliss. Sat Cit Ananda - then we have Vigraha which also manifest as sastra and complete Vasudeva conception.

 

*************************************************

 

There seems to be two types of devotees. The bhajananandi is potent in that his bhajan vibration can benefit others. The other devotee takes up the work of preaching and contacts others hearts with use of tangible forms. These tangible forms are also potent and contain a certain vibration.

 

The preacher may not necessarily effect the others heart with these tangible items, whereas bhava is not dependant in that same way....but can transfer into the heart of the other directly through shakti (or through bhakti devi who is independant).

 

I dont think there is need to split hairs on this subject, or to claim that one manifestation of the heart is higher than another, as that only leads to offence. In a spiritual sense all is one substance, free of relative consideration. Therefore claims that Visnu or Shiva, Radha or Durga is the highest is best to be avoided - or at least dialogued about in a spirit of discussion and openess with respect. We seem to always get into difficulty with extenal forms (words), even ones that contain spiritual substance and truth.

 

The Gaudiya ultimately must remember that the truth he/she holds is Inconceivable - and simulatenously one yet different.

[Kyros]

 

1. Brahma Samhita and Garga Samhita are obscure smritis acceptable only to gauDIyas.

 

2. gItA does say that Krishna is the source of everything in the same sense that multiple shrutis and smritis say that Vishnu or some form of Vishnu is the source of everything. However, the gItA does NOT say that Krishna is the source of Vishnu or other Vishnu-avatAra-s.

 

3. If the text is corrupted as you claim, then it is ipso facto unreliable as an independent authority for obvious reasons.

The Brahma Samhita and Garga Samhita are acceptable by everybody. Apparently it's convenient for non-believers to reject those scriptures and say only Gaudiyas accept those. Thanks to the British (ironically) the Garga Samhita at least could be found outside of India.

 

Krishna says he's the source of everything, and he further expands that in the same chapter where he mentions stuff like "of the Vedas I am the Sama Veda,of the demigods I am Indra,of the Adityas I am Visnu."

 

The point of that chaper was to point out that Krishna is the best"." <- period

 

The Kali-Santarana Upanisad is only corrupt up to the point that a couple of the lines have been switched around. There's no reason to reject a scripture because of that lame reason.

 

Might I add that it doesn't really matter if Krishna is the source or not. All Visnu-tattva are all plenary (full in all respects) expansions/forms or whatever you want to refer to them. There is no reason to worship Krishna because he is the source. He expands to attract the living entities back to the spiritual realm. Hence why he's referred to as the all-attractive.

 

Even Prabhupada himself said that not everybody will accept Krishna, kind of like how Hanuman won't accept anybody but Lord Ramacandra, or how the Gopi's won't accept anybody but Krishna.

[kaisersose]

 

The Brahma Samhita and Garga Samhita are acceptable by everybody.

 

If by everybody, you mean everyone who is a Gauidya Vaishnava, then you are right.

 

The story I have heard is Chaitanya "discovered" this lost text somewhere in Kerala, bought it home and since then his followers have known it. As a remarkable coincidence, this Kerala Text had striking evidence for the far away Bengali doctrine of Gaudiya Vaishnavism which was independently developed by Chaitanya. Consider this: I develop a brand new doctrine all by myself, travel to a far off place and there exists a lost scriptural text which has full support for my new doctrine! How often does this happen?

 

 

Apparently it's convenient for non-believers to reject those scriptures and say only Gaudiyas accept those.

 

Considering that these "non-Gaudiyas" are exponentially higher in number than the Gaudiyas and also considering the simple fact that no non-Gaudiya reference to the Brahma Samhita exists, it follows the non-believers are right.

 

 

Krishna says he's the source of everything, and he further expands that in the same chapter where he mentions stuff like "of the Vedas I am the Sama Veda,of the demigods I am Indra,of the Adityas I am Visnu."

 

This is what happens when simple concepts are misinterpreted and twisted. What about the 2 dozen or more Avatar lists in the Puranas (including the Bhagavatam) that Krishna is the eight avatar of Vishnu? What about the simple fact that Krishna is absent in any extant Veda? What about the simple fact that Krishna was born on the earth while Vishnu never has?

 

If you will ignore all of this and hold on to the misterpretation of a single verse from the Bhagavatam, you will have a hard time convincing anyone, most of all, yourself! Incidentally, the Bhagavatam itself lists avatars in two locations and both times, Krishna is the avatar of Vishnu and not the other way around.

 

 

Might I add that it doesn't really matter if Krishna is the source or not.

 

You sure had me fooled.

 

Cheers

[raghu]

 

In my opinion sastra is simply to confirm what takes place in the heart. Guru external will confirm the heart activity through sastric evidence. So in once sense Gokulkr is simply serving his fellow souls of similar understanding.

 

Bija, Gokulkr claimed that Krishna is the source of all avataras and then also claimed that this idea is based on "various Vedic sastras."

 

But this is misleading. The idea that Krishna is the "source" of Vishnu and other Vishnu-avatAras is specific to gaudiya Vaishnava doctrine and in fact is NOT found in the Vedas.

 

It is very disturbing the way people in iskcon make unfounded claims as if they are facts, and then rationalize their inability to substantiate their claims by appealing to "matters of the heart."

 

If gokulkr wanted to append a disclaimer to his posting that his ideas represented his own opinion/feeling/etc then he could have done that. But to the best of my knowledge he did not.