Where is your spiritual body?

[melvin]

 

Yes, Prabhupad always said that he was a cowherd boy. He also said that Krishna consciousness is intrinsic, that he (Prabhupad) just came to teach us that which we had forgotten. In one sense, whether we came from tathasta-sakti or fell from Goloka isn't really the issue; the issue is where are we headed, not where have we come from. Yes, our souls in their fullness of spiritual consciousness will blossom into our siddha-deha, eternal identity. Right now they are shrivelled up and unrecognizable, although within our hearts, but as we make advancement, our real identity will fully manifest. Some of you may even have a clue already as to your real identity. What part of Krishna lila or Ram lila or Vishnu lila or Chaitanya lila are you most attracted to ?

Pranams, jeffster/AMdas

 

In other words, if this were Hollywood, some would love to play the villain, Kamsa while others would love to play Krsna, the cowherd boy-hero of Vrndavan.

-----

[jeffster]

Melvin, I don't quite understand your response. This isn't Hollywood, no one plays Krishna except Krishna. His part is taken eternally because He is whollly transcendental, never forgetful. He is Krishna-tattva, not jiva tattva like us. And no one really plays us except us, we just need to enter the play (lila). My point was only that we don't yet know our siddha-deha, eternal identity. Perhaps the relevant question is what part of Krishna, Ram or Vishnu lila are you attracted to, Melvin ? Krishna is equal to all, even enemies he gives liberation to, although I believe, mostly impersonal liberation. We should attempt to be attracted to Krishna lila in a positive way, not as a demon.

Regards, Jeffster/AMdas

[melvin]

 

Melvin, I don't quite understand your response. This isn't Hollywood, no one plays Krishna except Krishna. His part is taken eternally because He is whollly transcendental, never forgetful. He is Krishna-tattva, not jiva tattva like us. And no one really plays us except us, we just need to enter the play (lila). My point was only that we don't yet know our siddha-deha, eternal identity. Perhaps the relevant question is what part of Krishna, Ram or Vishnu lila are you attracted to, Melvin ? Krishna is equal to all, even enemies he gives liberation to, although I believe, mostly impersonal liberation. We should attempt to be attracted to Krishna lila in a positive way, not as a demon.

Regards, Jeffster/AMdas

Jeffster, Krsna is the greatest actor. He plays a lot of roles. Considering most of us here want to play supporting roles rather than playing the role of Krsna himself, there are souls, too, who just love to play the role of Kamsa, a villain in the Krsna-lila story. And yet in the end of the story, Kamsa, too, was liberated. Just like Putana. Even if she played the role of Krsna`s surrogate mother Krsna breastfed on her milk that was poison unharmed while he snuffed the life-air out from her yet in the end Putana also achieved liberation. What I`m trying to say here is that the Krsna-lila story and other related stories if these were produced in Hollywood, the best actors and actresses fit to play the role of Krsna, Kamsa, or Putana are those who are well-versed with the scripts found in Srimad Bhagavatam.

------

[jeffster]

Yes, of course the best actors to play Krishna lila in movies would be devotees. But few if any devotees are Hollywood actors. I recall that a few years ago, some L.A. Iskcon devotees, like Ganga-narayan, were attempting to break into Hollywood, although with little success, as far as I know. To the best of my knowledge, the only fairly well-known actress who is a devotee is Hayley Mills, who long ago was a Disney or some such actress before she became a devotee. Hollywood would never get it right anyway; currently they are botching the Ramayana big time. Apparently, Krishna lila is too confidential for mass public consumption. This is kali yuga after all; they'd rather see fictional stories such as science fiction or bogus romances or action dramas.

Regards, jeffster/AMdas

[melvin]

 

Yes, of course the best actors to play Krishna lila in movies would be devotees. But few if any devotees are Hollywood actors. I recall that a few years ago, some L.A. Iskcon devotees, like Ganga-narayan, were attempting to break into Hollywood, although with little success, as far as I know. To the best of my knowledge, the only fairly well-known actress who is a devotee is Hayley Mills, who long ago was a Disney or some such actress before she became a devotee. Hollywood would never get it right anyway; currently they botching the Ramayana big time. Apparently, Krishna lila is too confidential for mass public consumption. This is kali yuga after all; they'd rather see fictional stories such as science fiction or bogus romances or action dramas.

Regards, jeffster/AMdas

There`s always bollywood if it`s hard to produce a Krsna lila movie in hollywood. What ever happened to the word INTERNATIONAL. If Srila Prabhupada were alive today, I`m sure he would love to produce a hollywood-based Krsna movie. He would hire Leonardo Di Caprio to play the part of Balarama and a well-known Indian actor to play the role of Krsna.

---

[jeffster]

Prabhupad was not a movie producer; he would have entrusted that to some of his disciples, had he felt that any were qualified to do such. Most, if not all, were not and are not qualified to produce a full-on Hollywood epic. We would simply be scoffed at for trying to break into their industry. We are still a street-corner preacher religion, at least here in America, a little like Jehovah's Witnesses, not accepted at all as mainstream. Nothing wrong with street harinam, mind you, but we certainly don't have general acceptance (yet). I believe that Bollywood has already produced numerous versions of both Ramayana and Mahabharata and some Krishna lila scenes appear in other movies, although I am not sure if the entire story of Krishna's wonderful manifestation has ever been produced as a major Bollywood epic. During the filming for the latest version of Mahabharata, being produced currently, the actor playing Arjuna broke down in crying ecstasy of love for Krishna. They had to stop shooting the scene while he recovered. I believe it may have been posted on YouTube, although I am not sure. But I did see it, I am not sure if YouTube or elsewhere, but I think on YouTube. Try searching there.

Regard, jeffster/AMdas

[jeffster]

Yes, I just checked it out. There is a nice scene on YouTube called "Mahabharata, behind the scenes 2-Closing theme song." It shows the actor breaking down, although now I think it must be the actor who played Krishna, not Arjuna, although I am not sure. But quite moving to watch and the ecstasy is quite contagious, watch out !!

Also on YouTube is Peter Brook's Mahabharata, which I had seen years ago but forgotten due to my tiny Kali yuga brain ! Although non-traditional, it is powerful and the actors have a lot of shakti. Best watched for the essence, rather than the form of it.

There is a lot of other Mahabharata stuff posted on YouTube. Check it out.

jeffster/AM das

Goodnight from the west coast of North America. After midnight here.

[melvin]

 

Yes, I just checked it out. There is a nice scene on YouTube called "Mahabharata, behind the scenes 2-Closing theme song." It shows the actor breaking down, although now I think it must be the actor who played Krishna, not Arjuna, although I am not sure. But quite moving to watch and the ecstasy is quite contagious, watch out !!

Also on YouTube is Peter Brook's Mahabharata, which I had seen years ago but forgotten due to my tiny Kali yuga brain ! Although non-traditional, it is powerful and the actors have a lot of shakti. Best watched for the essence, rather than the form of it.

There is a lot of other Mahabharata stuff posted on YouTube. Check it out.

jeffster/AM das

Goodnight from the west coast of North America. After midnight here.

 

Jeffster, now I`m begining to see a glimpse of who I am in Krsna`s lila story. My role may not be this big but I`m happy to have served Krsna as his doctor-friend.

----

[jeffster]

Melvin, who is Krishna's doctor-friend ?

jeffster

[jeffster]

Does Krishna need a doctor? If He has a sac-cid-ananda vigraha body, He doesn't need a doctor, unless it is part of lila. Are you pulling my leg ? Or did I just forget some part of Krishna lila with a family doctor or something?

jeffster/AMd

[melvin]

 

Does Krishna need a doctor? If He has a sac-cid-ananda vigraha body, He doesn't need a doctor, unless it is part of lila. Are you pulling my leg ? Or did I just forget some part of Krishna lila with a family doctor or something?

jeffster/AMd

 

You mean Krsna never got sick all his life? That Krsna never needed the help of a doctor? If that`s that case then there`s no substance to the name Dhanvantari.

-----

[Svarupa]

No–one falls from Goloka, we only 'think' and 'dream' we fall

There is always free will, that’s up to them, but no, they never falldown from that exalted level but it is not impossible for them to fall down, any jiva-tattva can fall down. Prabhupada has told us this but has said they do not come to this dangerous material creation unless it's for lila or pastime

For real love to exist, there must be that choice to be with Krishna or with ones own self centred desires of grandeur. That ability to choose must be there otherwise the gopis and all the other inhabitants of Goloka and Vaikuntha are robots, androids or the Borg (assimilated into the Kingdom of God)

There must be freewill to express love, that means choices

if you count in the 'eternal present' of Goloka that has no past or future, meaning everything and every 'body' is already there, the full eternal position and potential of our tatastha or marginal position is ALWAYS in Goloka.

So if our full potential is already there in Goloka due to the infallible state of the ‘eternal present’, isn't it obvious it is from there we originate even though it is said we are from the position of tatastha. (Simple meaning to choose between the ocean and the land or Krishna and the mahat-tattva)

Do you understand what I am trying to say mataji?

Tatastha is not a place or realm within the universe, it is the natural state of the jiva, ultimately meaning 'having the ability to choose this side or that side, to stay in Goloka or enter the mahat tattva.

We are both correct but are seeing this from different perspectives.

In other words, because of the simultaneous one a different aspect of Lord Caitanya’s teachings, we are always in Goloka (because of the eternal present) and tatastha-sakti simultaneously.

Srila Prabhupada never gave that much emphasis on the word tatastha in his books and preferred to use the word marginal more often in his books, e.g the marginal living entity

 

Srila Prabhupada - ‘We are also expansions of Krishna’s form. These jivas, the living entities… Krishna is expanding in two ways, svamsa and vibhinnamsa. Svamsa means Vishnu. One extension, expansion, is just directly He Himself. And another expansion (vibhinnamsa) is separated from Him. That separated from Him (marginal) we are’. Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture 1.3.1-3 — San Francisco, March 28, 1968

It is intense love due to separation. Therefore it is very common in this circumstance that one or even many of the gopis may pretend to be Krishna in order to remember Him and ease the pangs of separation for other gopis as well.

This kind of love felt in separation is the highest love because it is love expressed due to dominant missed association as Prabhupada’s Nectar of Devotion teaches.

The dreaded selfish sub-conscious fall down from Goloka, where the living entity is actually not only imitating Krishna but trying to be Krishna, IS due to envy.

How can this happen even in Goloka?

The answer is free will and the ability is choose. Without that choice, we would be mindless androids or slaves.

Choice allows us to FOREVER increase our love for Krishna in our unique individual way that makes us the marginal living entity we eternally are. Or if we choose, we can forget Krishna and the body we serve Krishna as and ‘do our own thing’ in the mahat-tattva (material creation)

In this way, unlike the gopis who most NEVER fall down, even though they have the free will to choose so if they desire, we have foolishly chosen to try and imitate Krishna in Goloka selfishly and not out of love as the gopis do. It is important to understand 90% of the inhabitants in Goloka and Vaikuntha never ever fall down because it is simply their choice to never ‘sub-consciously’ stop ‘thinking’ and ‘dreaming’ of serving Krishna and his dear pure devotees.

Therefore it is our selfish sub-conscious desires that make us unfit to remain aware of Goloka that expel us, that expel our awareness of who we really are from Goloka and the memory of our perpetual Krishna Conscious nitya-siddha body .(who we really are eternally) becomes forgotten due to being lost in our mistaken dreams and thoughts

So only the awareness of who we are is expelled from Goloka and NOT our Spiritual svarupa body.

Therefore always remember that our vigraha, svarupa or nitya-siddha spiritual body can never fall down from Goloka, only our mistaken dreams, thoughts and desires do and take us (our awareness of reality) to the material creation where we can have a shot at being god.

This sub-conscious state of restricted awareness is known as the nitya-baddha-jiva or baddha-jiva that refers to the living entities inferior self or secondary self which is a sub-conscious extension of their full eternal bodily identity and potential in Goloka.

What is explained above is the correct understanding of the origin of the ‘jiva soul’ that is really understood by Krishna’s mercy and never by jnan (knowledge) on its own

Srila Prabhupada - ‘When the living entity, misusing his tiny independence, wants to enjoy himself, he falls down into the material world.’(Srimad-Bhagavatam<?xml:namespace prefix = u1 /><u1:p></u1:p>

4.28.54, purport)<u1:p></u1:p>

So many misunderstand our eternal constitution or eternal devotional ’svarupa’ foundations. <u1:p></u1:p>

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Paramahamsa: So we can come to the spiritual world and return? <u1:p></u1:p>

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Srila Prabhupada: Yes.<u1:p></u1:p>

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Paramahamsa: Fall down?<u1:p></u1:p>

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Srila Prabhupada: Yes. As soon as we try, “Oh, this material world is very nice,” “Yes,” Krsna says, “yes, you go . . . Otherwise what is the meaning of free will?’ Morning Walk, Cheviot Hills Golf Course May 13, 1973 Los Angeles<u1:p></u1:p>

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Ravindra Svarup Prabhu - ‘‘When we “return” to the spiritual world, it will only be to discover that indeed we never left, and there has always been right here".

Ravindra Svarup Prabhu - "We are right now with Krsna, for Krsna consciousness is our svarupa, our eternal identity and perpetual constitutional position. We need only wake up and see where we are". <u1:p></u1:p>

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Ravindra Svarup Prabhu - "All this is known to Srila Prabhupada and to the acaryas. They know how one can fall from a place no one falls from, enter into an ignorance that has always been, and return to a place one never actually left". <u1:p></u1:p>

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Ravindra Svarup Prabhu - "Because such matters are inconceivable to mundane minds, when teachers speak of such things their words may seem contradictory. But in one way or another they all tell the whole truth’ Ravindra Svarup dasa web site<u1:p></u1:p>

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Srila Prabhupada - ‘The original home of the living entity and the Supreme Personality of Godhead is the spiritual world. In the spiritual world both the Lord and the living entities live together very peacefully". (Srimad-Bhagavatam<u1:p></u1:p>

4.28.54, purport)<u1:p></u1:p>

Srila Prabhupada - ‘Since the living entity remains engaged in the service of the Lord, they both share a blissful life in the spiritual world. However, when the living entity, misusing his tiny independence, wants to enjoy himself, he falls down into the material world.’(Srimad-Bhagavatam<u1:p></u1:p>

4.28.54, purport)<u1:p></u1:p>

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Srila Prabhupada - "Therefore the living entity is called marginal energy. But when the falldown has taken place for the conditioned soul is very difficult to ascertain. Therefore two classes are designated: eternally liberated (nitya-siddha) and eternally conditioned (nitya-baddha). But for arguments sake, a living entity being marginal energy, he can't be eternally conditioned (nitya-baddha). Srimad-Bhagavatam 4.28.54, purport)<u1:p></u1:p>

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Srila Prabhupada - "The Time is so unlimited that the conditioned souls appear to be eternally so, but from the philosophical view he cannot be eternally conditioned (nitya-baddha).Srimad-Bhagavatam 4.28.54,purport)<u1:p></u1:p>

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Srila Prabhupada - "Since we cannot trace out when we have become conditioned (baddha-jiva), there is no use of arguing on this point. Better to take care first how we can get rid of this conditional existence; as much as a patient should take care for treating his disease more, and less waste his time in finding out the cause of his disease".

The Spiritual Sky or its other words 'the Brahmajyoti' or the Brahman, is full of Spiritual Vaikuntha planets and eternally embodied nitya-siddhas (which is ALL of us)

However, within that same Spiritual Sky or Brahmajyoti, is the mahat tattva creation of Maha Vishnu, Who provides a 'mahat tattva' or material body to all nitya-baddha-jivas that enter His temporary material creation after they have sub-consciously extended, projected and withdrawn themselves from their their nitya-siddha body in Goloka or Vaikuntha.

Only within the mahat-tattva can the impersonal aspect of the Brahmajyoti (impersonal Brahman) exist.

Technically, the entire mahat-tattva is impersonal.

One can only enter it as a bodiless conscious spark that ORIGINATES from Goloka-Vrndavana. This secondary sub-conscious state (nitya-baddha) is projected and originates from ones real bodily form (nitya-siddha) in Goloka.

So it is very clear here that all living entities originate from Goloka.

The nitya-baddha-jiva is actually a formless individual until Maha Vishnu provides such ‘consciousness’ with a bodily vessel. The Mayavadis or impersonalists cannot understand this.

All they see is the mahat tattva and the formless spark of conscious. This is due to denying the fact there is a Goloka, which is the origin of ALL living entities and their beginingless and endless nitya-siddha body

 

 

 

Try to understand what Prabhupada is telling us.

 

 

 

Srila Prabhupada - "You are already in the spiritual sky, but you are simply covered. Just like the sun is already there. You are also already there…(In Vaikuntha) so actually we are always in the spiritual world. But when you forget Krishna by the cloud of illusion, then that is material”.

Srila Prabhupada – “Try to understand. Actually we are not fallen therefore, at any moment we can revive our Krishna consciousness. As soon as we understand that, "I have nothing to do with (This biological body or vessel and the material creation). I am simply Krishna's servant. Eternal servant. That's all". In a Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture given in London, on July 30, 1971

We do not evolve in 'consciousness' to the Krsnaloka realm, with the foolish idea we have never been to Krsnaloka. Srila Prabhupada also clearly rejected that idea as impersonal because we are actually already there in Krsnaloka and ALWAYS have been.

How is that possible??

It is a fact that we are ALL ALREADY in Krsnaloka in our FULL eternal Krsna Conscious state as our nitya-siddha-svarupa body. However, presently that 'AWARENESS' is covered by our selfish non-Krsna conscious desires. We therefore cannot see and act in that fully eternally developed consciousness of who WE really are because of our choice and free will to forget Krsna (which means we also forget the body we serve Krsna as).

Srila Prabhupada – “Established means re-establish. It is already established. We have got different types of relationship. That is called svarupa-siddhi. Svarupa-siddhi. (Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture, December 7, 1974, Bombay)

This means there is NO evolution of consciousness in regards to our original perpetual bodily identity because that body already eternally exists, we simply have to regain the memory of who we really are.

We simply have to once again regain the 'awareness 'of who we really are.

We do not grow consciously out of a plain sheet of dormant consciousness and evolve to reach Krsnaloka, but rather, are always are in the process of regaining or re-establishing who we are originally.

In the material creation, we are simply in the process of recovering who we really are

Even if we did fall out of the impersonal Brahmajyoti, then long, long, long before that we were ALL in Krsnaloka in full 'awareness' of our reall bodily nitya-siddha identity.

Srila Prabhupada – "When you are perfect in spiritual life, you will understand what is your relationship with Krishna automatically. That is called svarupa-siddhi”. (Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture, December 7, 1974, Bombay)

Srila Prabhupada - "You are liberated. You are liberated. Simply just a cloud has covered you. Drive away the cloud .. You are ever-liberated”

Srila Prabhupada - “Originally everyone is nitya-siddha. nitya-siddha krsna-bhakti ’sadhya’ kabhu naya sravanadi-suddha-citte karaye udaya Every living entity originally nitya-siddha, “. Srimad-Bhagavatam Class 7.9.4– Mayapur, February 18, 1977

Srila Prabhupada – “You have got original relationship with Krishna. Nitya-siddha Krishna-bhakti. . (Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture, December 7, 1974, Bombay)

Srila Prabhupada - “Everyone has got a particular relationship with Krishna in his original constitutional position that is called svarupa-siddhi". (Nectar of Devotion lecture, 20 October 1972, Vrindaban)

Srila Prabhupada - “Because he falls down from Brahma-sayujya (impersonal liberated condition ), he thinks that may be his origin, but he does not remember that long, long, long, long ago before that even, he was with Krishna”. Letter to Australian devotees 1972 under Madhudvisa Swami

A devotee -"Original spiritual form in Vaikuntha" means a form that exists in the "present moment". (You should be happy that we have achieved a meeting of the minds on this point.) But does it mean a form, which we had in the past, then lost and will regain - although we will regain a form that always exists in the "present moment".

Answer – Nothing is lost or gained in Goloka except for our memory and 'awareness' of who we really are. Everything is set eternally there is in a state of the living entities 'full potential originality as a nitya siddha embodied devotee of Krsna or Vishnu', which means ALL living entities or jiva sparks, have a Svarupa body that is eternally unchangeable, eternally youthful, eternally original and eternal a person with bodily form sat, chit, Ananda, VIGRAHA.

In this way, without argument, we should accept Srila Prabhupada’s conclusion and understand without any doubts, that we ALL came down from Goloka long, long, long ago, not as our nitya-siddha-svarupa body, but as a dreaming projection known as the living entities nitya-baddha consciousness.

Srila Prabhupada - “You are already in the spiritual sky, but you are simply covered. Just like the sun is already there. You are also already there…Try to understand. Actually we are not fallen therefore, at any moment we can revive our Krishna consciousness." Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture given in London, on July 30, 1971

Srila Prabhupada - "You are ever-liberated (nitya-siddha). The sky is always spiritual, but it is sometimes overcrowded with cloud, actually, you are NOT conditioned (nitya-baddha). You are thinking. Just like in the dream that tiger is eating you. You were never eaten by tiger. There is no tiger. So we have to get out of this dream". Lecture on Sri Caitanya-Caritamrta, Adi-lila 7.108--San Francisco, February 18, 1967

Srila Prabhupada - "Actually we are not fallen therefore, at any moment we can revive (Regain, re-establish, wake up from the dream, remember who we really are as a body eternally in a state of originality) our Krishna consciousness. As soon as we understand that (my svarupa body is always in Krsnaloka), "I have nothing to do with (the material world and its bodily vessels my sub-conscious fallen nitya-baddha condition is housed in). I am simply Krishna's servant. Eternal servant. That's all". Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture given in London, on July 30, 1971

[Svarupa]

 

 

FALLING TO THE MATERIAL WORLD

 

 

 

It is a fact that no one falls from Vaikuntha" (Bhag. 7.1.35, purp. by Srila A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada)

Yes, that is exactly right as very clearly explained as follows

Srila Prabhupada - 'No one falls from the spiritual world or Vaikuntha planet, for it is the eternal abode”. (Bhag. 3.16.26, purp.) This clearly means our nitya-siddha svarupa body can NEVER leave Krsnaloka or Vaikuntha and that we only dream, think or imagine we leave.

Srila Prabhupada – “This material creation is the spirit soul's dream. Actually all existence in the material world is a dream of Mahā-Viṣṇu, as the Brahma-saḿhitā describes –

Srila Prabhupada – “This material world is created by the dreaming of Mahā-Viṣṇu. The real, factual platform is the spiritual world, but when the spirit soul wants to imitate the Supreme Personality of Godhead, he is put into this dreamland of material creation”. 4.29.83.http://vedabase.net/sb/4/29/83/en

Srila Prabhupada- "There are many energies, but they have been divided into three principal ones: the external energy, the internal energy, and the marginal energy. We living entities are the marginal energy. Marginal means that we may remain under the influence of the external energy or we may remain under the influence of the internal energy, as we like". From "The Journey of Self Discovery - His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

In other words, the marginal living entities secondary conscious projection is known as the baddha-jiva soul within the mahat-tattva.

The marginal living entity actually has two aspects of consciousness; one is 'eternal form' of sat, cit, ananda, Vigraha or ones perpetual Krishna Conscious bodily form known as nitya-siddha, while the other is a non-Krishna conscious dreaming bodiless state called the nitya-baddha

The nitya siddha body is imperishable and never fades away, due to being eternally established within the 'eternal present' of Goloka, while the other is a dreaming bodiless state that enters the mahat tattva and is given form according to desires of self interest.

The living entities, as their nitya-siddha body, are properly situated within the Lord’s internal energy as a perpetual bodily servant that is known as ones perpetual 'Svarupa'.

When the marginal living entity misuses their independence and tries to act as enjoyers or lords; they are transferred to the material energy or mahat-tattva, not as their nitya siddha body, but rather, as a secondary dreaming consciousness called nitya-baddha.

Srila Prabhupada - “The living entity is called marginal energy. But when the falldown has taken place for the conditioned soul is very difficult to ascertain. Therefore, two classes are designated: eternally liberated (NITYA-SIDDHA) and eternally conditioned (NITYA-BADDHA). But for arguments sake, a living entity being marginal energy, he can't be eternally conditioned. The time is so unlimited that the conditioned souls appear to be eternally so, but from the philosophical view he cannot be eternally conditioned. Letter Srila Prabhupada sent to Upendra prabhu

Srila Prabhupada - "The Supreme Lord has TWO energies, material and spiritual. The living entities are marginal energy. As marginal energy, a person may be under the control of the material energy (Maha-maya) or the spiritual energy (Yoga- maya). SB 3.23.10 pp.

Srila Prabhupada - "Because the living being can appear either in matter or in spirit, the jiva is called the marginal potency" CC Adi 5.41 pp.

Srila Prabhupada - "The living entity (jiva-atma) takes different positions - sometimes he merges into the dark material nature and identifies himself with matter, and sometimes he identifies himself with the superior spiritual nature. THEREFORE, he is called the Lords marginal energy. " BG 8.3 pp.

Srila Prabhupada - "The fact is that individual living entities are eternally part and parcel of the Supreme Lord, and both of them are very intimately related as friends. But the living entity has the tendency to reject the sanctions of the Supreme Lord and act independently in an attempt to dominate the supreme nature, and BECAUSE HE HAS THIS TENDENCY; he is called the marginal energy of the Supreme Lord. " BG 13.23 pp.

In the above verses, Srila Prabhupada explains that marginal energy means the TENDENCY of the living entity to reject the sanction of the Lord and act independently.

So, marginal energy, or tatastha-shakti, is NOT a particular place or area in the universal creation where souls drop from, but rather it denotes the NATURE of the jiva-soul.

It refers to a living entity with the nature of independently choosing between the Lord's two energies. Therefore, the living entities DO NOT expand from the marginal energy, but their natures are called marginal. This marginal energy (jiva-soul) is an expansion of Lord Krishna, who is the origin of the living entities.

Srila Prabhupada - "If marginal energy (the living entity with its independent nature) chooses to be in contact with the external energy of the Lord, it still remains marginal. (See CC Adi 2.96)

If the marginal living entity chooses to go back to the internal energy (the spiritual world), it still keeps his marginal independence. It does not change his nature into internal energy and becomes Vishnu-tattva. Although the living entities are equal in quality to the internal potency of Krishna (which is spiritual), they nevertheless keep their marginal independence. Jiva-tattva (the marginal energy) does not turn into Vishnu-tattva (the internal energy), otherwise the living entity would turn into God Himself as in Mayavadi philosophy.

Marginal energy can be situated either in the external or internal energy of the Lord and according to the living beings free will and contact with either the material or spiritual energies, the living being is situated in proportionally higher or lower levels of existence. If marginal energy can freely choose to be situated in either external or internal energy, then marginal energy (because of his free will) can also choose to leave either external or internal energy."

Here are excerpts from two letters the Srila Prabhupada sent to Upendra prabhu regarding our 'original position'. One letter is from 1968 and one from 1969.

Srila Prabhupada - "Regarding your question, in one sense both you and Mahapurusa are right. The fact is that after the dissolution of the Universe the living entities remain in slumber within Maha Visnu, and again when the creation takes place they are impregnated in their original position and they come out in different species of life. By gradual evolutionary process, when they come to the human form there is good chance of getting out of the repeated birth and death, and one can enter into the Spiritual Realm. But if one loses this chance he is again put into the cycle of birth and death. The conditioned souls are always within the Maha Visnu Form, whereas the liberated souls in Vaikuntha, they are engaged in the service of the Lord. Constitutionally every living entity, even if he is in the Vaikuntha Loka, has chance of falling down”.

Srila Prabhupada - "Therefore the living entity is called marginal energy. But when the falldown has taken place for the conditioned soul is very difficult to ascertain. Therefore two classes are designated: eternally liberated and eternally conditioned. But for arguments sake, a living entity being marginal energy, he can't be eternally conditioned. The Time is so unlimited that the conditioned souls appear to be eternally so, but from the philosophical view he cannot be eternally conditioned. Since we cannot trace out when we have become conditioned, there is no use of arguing on this point. Better to take care first how we can get rid of this conditional existence; as much as a patient should take care for treating his disease more, and less waste his time in finding out the cause of his disease".

Please offer my blessings to the others. I hope this will meet you in good health."

A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

Tatastha

The Lord has three basic energies: internal, external, and marginal.

The living entities do not only belong to the marginal energy, they ARE the marginal energy or tatastha sakti that is embodied in their original full constitutional foundation, which is expressed as nitya-siddha in their innovative perpetual position.

Tatastha is another name for jiva tattva, marginal living entity, or jiva soul that also incorporates the jiva souls ability to choice the land or Goloka and the mahat-tattva or the ocean. The marginal living entity is therefore known as "tatastha sakti"

The nitya-baddha consciousness is the result of the jiva executing and projecting its free will to ignore Krsna and chase their own plans of existence in the maha-tattva.

When the baddha-jiva becomes frustrated with the mahat-tattva, and still denies their eternal existence with Krsna as nitya-siddha, he enters into a dormant inactive state of his own dreaming consciousness that is known as the impersonal aspect of the Brahmajyoti. This state of dormant consciousness is ONLY achieved after being liberated from the mahat-tattva, which is really and factually the Impersonal aspect of the Spiritual Sky or Brahmajyoti, or their own individual consciousness.

That means, although we are properly situated within the Lord’s internal energy in our ‘svarupa’ body eternally beyond mundane time and space, we always have the propensity to misuse our independence.

This means we may choose to try and act as enjoyers or lords of all we purvey that immediately disqualifies us from being aware of our ‘svarupa’ body, and instead try to lord it over Krishna’s material energy that is under the jurisdiction of the sleeping and dreaming Maha-Vishnu.

Srila Prabhupada- "You are already in the spiritual sky, but you are simply covered. Just like the sun is already there. You are also already there…Try to understand. Actually we are not fallen therefore, at any moment we can revive our Krishna consciousness. ". Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture given in London, on July 30, 1971

Srila Prabhupada - "You are ever-liberated (nitya-siddha). The sky is always spiritual, but it is sometimes overcrowded with cloud, Actually, you are NOT conditioned (nitya-baddha). You are thinking. Just like in the dream that tiger is eating you. You were never eaten by tiger. There is no tiger. So we have to get out of this dream". (Lecture on Sri Caitanya-Caritamrta, Adi-lila 7.108--San Francisco, February 18, 1967)

Srila Prabhupada - "So to go to God or Krishna means you will have to acquire your original, spiritual body. The spiritual body is already there, but we are now covered by this material body". by His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada Homburg, Germany, June 22, 1974”

this is even difficult to understand without realization. Even my local Temple president says now is the present but actually there is no present in the material world, it's always the past, what you reading is always in the past. Wow, the Goloka realm of the eternal present tiime of love and devotion is inconceivable while we are trapped in this material body and mind.

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<TABLE style="MARGIN-LEFT: 13.6pt; WIDTH: 100%; mso-cellspacing: 0cm; mso-padding-alt: 4.5pt 4.5pt 4.5pt 4.5pt" cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 0.75pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 18pt; BORDER-TOP: #666666 0.75pt solid; PADDING-LEFT: 18pt; BACKGROUND: #e0e0e0; PADDING-BOTTOM: 4.5pt; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 0.75pt solid; PADDING-TOP: 4.5pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 0.75pt solid">Originally Posted by Ananta Sesa

But why do then Srila Prabhupada say in his books that there is past, present and future here in the material world?

 

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The way I understand this from reading Srila Prabhupada's books is that the eternal present means exactly that. In Vaikuntha there is no past or future

Where as in the material world the present instantly turns into past. This is the point Gauragopala dasa is trying to make

He is comparing the 'eternal present' of the Krsnaloka with the so called presentof the material world.

In this comparison, there is no present in the material world because the present in the material world is actually the past. Isn't this a fact? What is the NOW, the present is now the past.

Hence, there is only the reality of past and future in the material creation because the present is always slipping into and becoming the past

Srimad Bhagavatam 11.22

"The mind, bound to the reactions of fruitive work, always meditates on the objects of the senses, both those that are seen in this world and those that are heard about from Vedic authority. Consequently, the mind appears to come into being and to suffer annihilation along with its objects of perception, and thus its ability to distinguish past and future is lost".

Notice the missing of the word present. The purport does not explain this

Suchandra's explanation is also correct. There is present but it is instantly the past in the material world.

Srila Bhaktivenode Thakur explains futher

Paramahamsa babaji - "The three divisions of time are: 1. past, 2. present and 3. future. These divisions refer to material time, time within the realm of the illusory potency maya. In the spiritual world the present exists eternally.

In the spiritual world the past and future do not exist.

Lord Krsna and the individual spirit soul exist in that eternal present. In this way the individual soul is eternal and his original nature, which is his pure love for Lord Krsna, is also eternal.

Talk of the individual soul's being 'created' or 'fashioned' is a misconception, mistakenly imposing the time patterns of the inanimate material world on a spiritual entity.

The atomic individual soul is spiritual and eternal. He existed before his entrance into the material world. Because in the spiritual world there is no past or future, whatever exists there exists in an eternal present.

Therefore the soul and its nature are both eternal. They exist in that eternal present.

I am only describing this in words. Your understanding will depend on your ability to understand the pure spiritual world. I can only give a hint here.

In spiritual trance you will be able to see all this directly. The logic and argument of this material world will not help you to understand it. Your ability to directly perceive the spiritual world beyond the realm of matter will depend on how much you can loosen the shackles of material bondage.

In the beginning you will see your own pure spiritual form. By again and again chanting the spiritual and holy names of Lord Hari, you will come to understand the nature of the soul.

By practicing astanga-yoga or following the path of the impersonalists you will not be able to see the pure spiritual nature. By directly serving Lord Krsna you will be able to understand the eternal nature of the soul.

Therefore you should chant the holy names of Lord Hari always and with enthusiasm. Only by chanting the names of Lord Hari will you make advancement in spiritual life". From Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura's Sri Jaiva-dharma Chapter Two The Soul's Eternal Nature is Pure and Everlasting

What is the nature of material time?

The material world is forever changing, so which events are future, which present, and which past?

Future events become present, present events become past, and past events sink further and further into the past

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<TABLE style="MARGIN-LEFT: 13.6pt; WIDTH: 100%; mso-cellspacing: 0cm; mso-padding-alt: 4.5pt 4.5pt 4.5pt 4.5pt" cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 0.75pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 18pt; BORDER-TOP: #666666 0.75pt solid; PADDING-LEFT: 18pt; BACKGROUND: #e0e0e0; PADDING-BOTTOM: 4.5pt; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 0.75pt solid; PADDING-TOP: 4.5pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 0.75pt solid">Originally Posted by suchandra

past, present and future is only transcendental activity.

 

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>Which means there is no past or future in Vaikuntha because that transcendental service is eternally present. This is a paradox to our materially conditioned mind

Quote:

<TABLE style="WIDTH: 100%; mso-cellspacing: 0cm; mso-padding-alt: 4.5pt 4.5pt 4.5pt 4.5pt" cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 0.75pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 18pt; BORDER-TOP: #666666 0.75pt solid; PADDING-LEFT: 18pt; BACKGROUND: #e0e0e0; PADDING-BOTTOM: 4.5pt; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 0.75pt solid; PADDING-TOP: 4.5pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 0.75pt solid">The way I understand this from reading Srila Prabhupada's books is that the eternal present means exactly that. In Vaikuntha there is no past or future

Where as in the material world the present instantly turns into past. This is the point

 

He is comparing the 'eternal present' of the Krsnaloka with the so called present of the material world.

 

In this comparison, there is no present in the material world because the present in the material world is actually the past. Isn't this a fact? What is the NOW, the present, is now the past.

 

Hence, there is only the reality of past and future in the material creation because the present is always slipping into and becoming the past

 

What is the nature of material time?

 

The material world is forever changing, so which events are future, which present, and which past?

 

Future events become present, present events become past, and past events sink further and further into the past.

 

Hare Krishna

 

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Srila Bhaktivenode Thakur "Because in the spiritual world there is no past or future, whatever exists there exists in an eternal present". Jaiva-dharma

That eternal present does not exist in the material world because what ever we experience at present immediately becomes the past therefore, technically, on one hand, there is no present in the material world. Whatever act we perform now is immediately a past event. However, theoretically on the other hand, for us to perform self-centred actions, be it good or bad, there is that flickering passing moment of the present. Hence on this platform in the Jaiva-dharma, material time is explained as past present and future

Srila Prabhupada - "Established means re-establish. It is already established. That is called svarupa-siddhi. When one becomes perfectly spiritually realised, then he understands what is his relationship is. This relationship is eternal".

Srila Prabhupada - "We all have come down from Vaikuntha some millions of years ago” Lecture August 6, 1973

[Svarupa]

The fact is, our real bodily form is eternally with Krishna in Goloka, but sometimes, due to our ability to choose and practise free will, we simply make the wrong choice and ‘dream’ of an existence without Krishna. We only think or dream we fall down when actually there is never a fall down of our Spiritual body from Goloka

The material world is not an illusion; it is very real but temporary

Srila Prabhupada has said that those polluted by Mayavadis teachings foolishly believe we came from the impersonal Brahmajyoti or born from a plain sheet of consciousness, foolishly saying the jiva springs from a plain sheet of consciousness and not Goloka Vrndavana.

Prabhupada, ISKCON's founder rejected such impersonal nonsense that unfortunately pollute other Gaudiya traditions

In this way, our memory and 'awareness' of who we really are, becomes forgotten or covered by our own self centred desires to please ourselves in our imaginary material ethereal and biological bodies and no longer recognise Krishna as our eternal master from the correct viewpoint of our permanent and always existing Spiritual body.

What does it really mean to be situated in Gods Kingdom and what is, or where is our true eternal bodily form and identity?

Nothing is lost or gained in Goloka Vrndavana or the perpetual Kingdom of God because everything is always fully perfect in the mood of loving selfless devotional relationships with Krishna. In actual fact, we are always there but some of us are 'thinking' or 'dreaming we are not there but live in a world made up of our own imagination.

The fact is, our real bodily form is eternally with Krishna in Goloka but sometimes, due to our ability to choose and practise free will, our memory and 'awareness' of who we really are becomes forgotten or covered by our own self centred desires to please ourselves and not Krishna.

So leaving Goloka is NOT a physical fall down, it is a sub-conscious one. Everything in Krsnaloka is set eternally in the present, meaning Gods eternal blissful Kingdom has no experience or concept of past or future.

So what’s there is forever there. This means every living entity is represented there by the bodily form they eternally are.

This eternal presents that has no beginning or end in Goloka, is a place of selfless loving devotion. This is Gods or Krishna’s eternal Kingdom where the living entities awareness is meant to always be however, some choose to forget and enter another world called the material creation or mahat-tattva.

Only found in Goloka is who we really are, everlastingly serving Krsna and his devotees and expansions in a blissful body that ultimately out shines all the dream material identities our forgetful mind has created over so many life times.

It is therefore; only in Goloka we will find that our perpetual devotional bodily form, endlessly exists living out the living entities 'full potential originality as a nitya siddha embodied devotee of Krsna or Vishnu'.

This means ALL living entities or jiva sparks, have an Svarupa body that is eternally unchangeable, eternally youthful, eternally original and eternal a person with bodily form sat, chit, ananda, VIGRAHA.

If there is no past or future and only the present, then we are all in a perpetual state of originality there. Remember, the living entity leaves Goloka not as ones eternal Svarupa body, but via their sub-conscious dream, thought, mistaken desires and imagination.

So, just as ones material body never changes while one is dreaming they are a King, ones ‘Svarupa’ body never changes while one is living out their self centred dreams in the material world.

We must remember that our nitya-siddha-Svarupa body is forever locked and secured perpetually within the ‘eternal present, which is an eternal state of originality’ that has no past and future.

This means when one finishes their dreams within the material world and again become ‘aware’ of their full potential ‘Svarupa body, it is like waking up from a dream and finding themselves as the body they always were and always have been.

The Spiritual Sky or it's other word 'the Brahmajyoti' is full of Spiritual Vaikuntha planets however, within that same Spiritual Sky or Brahmajyoti, is the mahat tattva creation of Maha Vishnu. Only on the outer edges of the mahat-tattva can the impersonal aspect of the Brahmajyoti exist. Technically, the entire mahat-tattva is impersonal. One can only enter it as a bodiless consciousness after being the living entity sub-consciously leaves Goloka or is projected from their real bodily form in Goloka

The nitya-baddha-jiva is actually a formless individual until Maha Vishnu provides such ‘consciousness’ with a bodily vessel. the Mayavadis or impersonalists cannot understand this.

All they see is the mahat tattva amd the formles spark of conscious. This is due to denying the fct there is Goloka and is the origin of ALL nitya-siddha living entities - This iscalled PERSONALISM

Also I have not added anything, it is all coming from Prabhupada.

Therefore, other than my personal association with Prabhupada from 1972 to 1976, I have intensly searched Prabhupada's Books, letters, lectures and morning walks and found statements others were not aware of about how we came down from Vaikuntha, not as our Spiritual body, but rather as a sub-conscious projection called the baddha-jiva.

Srila Prabhupada: You are already in the spiritual sky, but you are simply covered. Just like the sun is already there. You are also already there…so actually we are always in the spiritual world. But when you forget Krishna by the cloud of illusion that is material. Try to understand”. From a Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture given in London, on July 30, 1971

Srila Prabhupada - “Actually we are not fallen therefore, at any moment we can revive our Krishna consciousness. As soon as we understand that, “I have nothing to do with. I am simply Krishna’s servant. Eternal servant. That’s all.lecture Tokyo Japan 1972: Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 2.9.1

Srila Prabhupada - “You are eternally liberated (nitya-siddha) but since we have become conditioned on account of our desire to enjoy materialistic way of life, from time immemorial, therefore it appears that we are eternally conditioned (nitya-baddha)” Letter to Aniruddha, dated November 14, 1966

Srila Prabhupada explains it this way –“There is nothing to be gained in Goloka, only regained”

How can we leave a place of such exquisite loveliness? Once we go to Goloka we do not leave. We cannot leave. (Out of everlasting forever happiness and bliss) I do not see how we were there in the first place.

Devotee: Srila Prabhupada, you say in your books so many times that somehow or other we have fallen into this material world due to our enviousness or our independence.

Srila Prabhupada: Many. There are many reasons.

Devotee: I can't seem to get a grasp on this at all. If we, in our original constitutional position as part and parcel of Krishna--and in that position, that, original position of full knowledge and full bliss--and being in our eternal nature . . . Now I have some experience of how strong this material energy is and how Maya works, somewhat. But, if I had known this and had this full knowledge, then I would have had this knowledge of how Maya works and . . . How I might fall?

Srila Prabhupada: You read the life of Jaya, Vijaya, Hiranyakasipu, Hiranyaksa? They were Krishna's Doorkeepers. How they fell down? Did you read it? Did you read the life of Hiranyakasipu or Hiranyaksa?

Devotee: Yes, Srila Prabhupada.

Srila Prabhupada: So how they did fall? They are from Vaikuntha. They are Krishna's personal associates, keeping . . . the Doorkeepers. How did they fell down? Anyway, there is chance of falling down at any moment.

Devotee: Well, in His family, they wanted to enjoy the material world?

Srila Prabhupada: Whatever it may be, the falldown is there. So, because we are living entities, we are not as powerful as Krishna. Therefore, we may fall down from Vaikuntha at any moment. Iccha-dvesa samutthena sarge yanti parantapa. Find out this verse

Pusta Krishna Swami: iccha-dvesa samutthena dvandva-mohena bharata sarva-bhutani sammoham sarge yanti parantapa: "O scion of Bharata, O conqueror of the foe, all living entities are born into delusion, overcome by the dualities of desire and hate."

Srila Prabhupada: Purport?

Pusta Krishna Swami: "The real constitutional position of the living entity is that of subordination to the Supreme Lord, Who is pure knowledge. When one is deluded into separation from this pure knowledge, he becomes controlled by illusory energy and cannot understand the Supreme Personality of Godhead. The illusory energy is manifested in the duality of desire and hate. Due to desire and hate, the ignorant person wants to become one with the Supreme Lord and envies Krishna as the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Pure devotees, who are not so deluded or contaminated by desire and hate, can understand that Lord Sri Krishna appears by His internal potencies. But those who are deluded by duality and nescience think that the Supreme Personality of Godhead is created by material energies. This is their misfortune. Such deluded persons symptomatically dwell in dualities of dishonor and honor, misery and happiness, woman and man, good and bad, pleasure and pain, etc., thinking 'This is my wife, this is my house; I am the master of this house, I am the husband of this wife.' These are the dualities of delusion. Those who are so deluded by dualities are completely foolish and cannot understand the Supreme Personality of Godhead."

Srila Prabhupada: So, even in the Vaikuntha, if I desire that--"Why shall I serve Krishna? Why not become Krishna?"--I immediately fall down. That is natural. A servant is serving the master, (but) sometimes he may think that, "If I could become the master." They are thinking like that; they are trying to become God. That is delusion. You cannot become God. That is not possible. But he's wrongly thinking.

Vipina Purandara prabhu: Why doesn't Krishna protect us from that desire?

Srila Prabhupada: He's protecting. He says, "You rascal, don't desire. Surrender unto Me." But you are rascal; you do not do this.

Vipina Purandara prabhu: Why doesn't He save me from thinking like that?

Srila Prabhupada: That means you lose your independence.

Vipina Purandara: And no love.

Srila Prabhupada: That is force . . . In Bengali it is said, "If you catch one girl or boy, 'You love me, you love me, you love me.' " Is it love? "You love me, otherwise I will kill you!" Is that love? So Krishna does not want to become a lover like that, on the point of revolver--"You love me, otherwise I shall kill you!" That is not love; that is threatening. Love is reciprocal, voluntary, good exchange of feeling. Then there is love. Not by force; that is rape. . . Why one is called lover, another is called rape?

Vipina Purandara prabhu: But isn't it by force anyway? If we don't love Krishna, we suffer.

Srila Prabhupada: That is your business. You'll suffer. But that Krishna does not force you. He says the real, "You love me, you'll be happy. If you don't love, you suffer." But that is your business.

Vipina Purandara prabhu: So, what is the choice?

Srila Prabhupada: Choice is yours. If you are rascal, you don't make the choice, the best choice. You suffer. The rascals, they suffer. And intelligent men, they do not suffer. If you are intelligent, then Krishna says that, "You surrender to Me." Uou surrender, then you are intelligent. If you are rascal, then you reject and you suffer. When a father says to his rascal son, "My dear son, you just hear me, do like this, you'll be happy." If he does not do it, he'll suffer. There is no other alternative.

Guest: Srila Srila Prabhupada, why is the material world made on the level of a jailhouse? It's made on the level of a jailhouse, that, I've been told, the attitude of a jail, instead of the attitude . . .

Srila Prabhupada: Yes, because there will be so many criminals. Therefore, government has to construct a jailhouse. It is not government's desire. It is expensive, unnecessary. But because there are rascals who will become criminal, the government has jailhouse. So one who wants to remain independent of Krishna, for them there is material world, "All right, you remain here."

Vipina Purandara prabhu: We also say that Krishna is fulfilling the desires of every living entity. So if we want to enjoy independent of Krishna, why doesn't He let us really enjoy independent of Him?

Srila Prabhupada: That is not possible. That is Maya; it is called (Maya). You are not enjoyer, you are servant. Because you are willing to become enjoyer, you suffer, that's all. You are not enjoyer.

Vipina Purandara prabhu: Then He's not fulfilling the desire.

Srila Prabhupada: No, you wanted to enjoy--enjoy at your risk. Sometimes you'll become the king of heaven, and sometimes you become the germs in the stool.

Vipina Purandara prabhu: Hmmm, enjoy at your risk.

Srila Prabhupada: Yes.

Vipina Purandara prabhu: Instead of under His protection, you enjoy at your risk.

Srila Prabhupada: Therefore He advises, "Rascal, you give up all this enjoying spirit. You just surrender to Me. You'll be happy." But we don't accept it. Therefore, sometimes we are in the heavenly kingdom, sometimes as a worm in the stool. That is going on. That is your risk. Excerpt from an Evening Darsana on July 8, 1976 in Washington, D.C.

His Divine Grace Srila Prabhupada, the shaktyavesh-avatar of bhakti-shakti and the current or most recent Sampradaya Acharya in our line of the parampara, is answering the origination question . He is making a very self-evident, forceful presentation:

“So, even in the Vaikuntha, if I desire that--"Why shall I serve Krishna? Why not become Krishna?"--I immediately fall down.”

“ . . . we may fall down from Vaikuntha at any moment.”

So leaving Goloka is NOT a physical fall down in our nitya siddha body, it is a sub-conscious one where we manifest as our nitya baddha projected sub-conscious state that is compared to a dream state of being, which is the lower self of ones individuality and personality.

This artificial dreaming conscious state is then radiated, televised and projected by the living entity as their dream intensifies by desiring to experience existence on their own terms, governed by desires centred around the secondary self that has completely forgotten the perpetual nitya siddha Krsna conscious bodily form they really are eternally.

The fact is, our real bodily form is eternally with Krishna in Goloka, but sometimes, due to our ability to choose and practise free will, we simply make the wrong choice and ‘dream’ of an existence without Krishna. In this way, our memory and 'awareness' of who we really are, becomes forgotten or covered by our own self centred desires to please ourselves in our imaginary material ethereal and biological bodies and no longer recognise Krishna as our eternal master from the correct viewpoint of our permanent and always existing Spiritual body.

So leaving Goloka is NOT a physical fall down in our nitya siddha body, it is a sub-conscious one where we manifest as our nitya baddha projected sub-conscious state that is compared to a dream state of being. which is the lower self of radiated by the living entity when they forget their perpetual nitya siddha Krishna conscious bodily form.

Everything in Krsnaloka is set eternally in the present, meaning Gods eternal blissful Kingdom has no experience or concept of past or future. So what’s there is forever there. This means every living entity is represented there by the bodily form they eternally are.

This eternal presents that has no beginning or end in Goloka, is a place of selfless loving devotion. This is Gods or Krishna’s eternal Kingdom where the living entities awareness is meant to always be seeing Krishna in one of the many devotional lilas however, there are some who choose to forget Krishna, his Kingdom, as well as the bodily identity one has there and enter another world called the material creation or mahat-tattva.

Only found in Goloka is who we really are, everlastingly serving Krsna and his devotees and expansions in a blissful body that ultimately out shines all the dream material identities our forgetful mind has created over so many life times.

It is therefore; only in Goloka we will find that our perpetual devotional bodily form, endlessly exists living out the living entities 'full potential originality as a nitya siddha embodied devotee of Krsna or Vishnu'.

This means ALL living entities or jiva sparks, have an Svarupa body that is eternally unchangeable, eternally youthful, eternally original and eternal a person with bodily form sat, chit, ananda, VIGRAHA.

If there is no past or future and only the present, then we are all in a perpetual state of originality there. Remember, the living entity leaves Goloka not as ones eternal Svarupa body, but via their sub-conscious dream, thought, mistaken desires and imagination.

[Svarupa]

So, just as ones material body never changes while one is dreaming they are a King, ones ‘Svarupa’ body never changes while one is living out their self centred dreams in the material world.

We must remember that our nitya-siddha-Svarupa body is forever locked and secured perpetually within the ‘eternal present, which is an eternal state of originality’ that has no past and future.

This means when one finishes their dreams within the material world and again become ‘aware’ of their full potential ‘Svarupa body, it is like waking up from a dream and finding themselves as the body they always were and always have been.

Srila Prabhupada explains it this way –“There is nothing to be gained in Goloka, only regained”

What does the word "MARGINAL" mean when referring to the living enttity"

Srila Prabhupada - “The living entity is called marginal energy. But when the falldown has taken place for the conditioned soul is very difficult to ascertain. Therefore, two classes are designated: eternally liberated (NITYA-SIDDHA) and eternally conditioned (NITYA-BADDHA). But for arguments sake, a living entity being marginal energy, he can't be eternally conditioned. The time is so unlimited that the conditioned souls appear to be eternally so, but from the philosophical view he cannot be eternally conditioned. Letter Srila Prabhupada sent to Upendra prabhu

Srila Prabhupada - "The Supreme Lord has TWO energies, material and spiritual. The living entities are marginal energy. As marginal energy, a person may be under the control of the material energy (Maha-maya) or the spiritual energy (Yoga- maya). SB 3.23.10 pp.

Srila Prabhupada - "Because the living being can appear either in matter or in spirit, the jiva is called the marginal potency" CC Adi 5.41 pp.

Srila Prabhupada - "The living entity (jiva-atma) takes different positions - sometimes he merges into the dark material nature and identifies himself with matter, and sometimes he identifies himself with the superior spiritual nature. THEREFORE, he is called the Lords marginal energy. " BG 8.3 pp.

Srila Prabhupada - "The fact is that individual living entities are eternally part and parcel of the Supreme Lord, and both of them are very intimately related as friends. But the living entity has the tendency to reject the sanctions of the Supreme Lord and act independently in an attempt to dominate the supreme nature, and BECAUSE HE HAS THIS TENDENCY; he is called the marginal energy of the Supreme Lord. " BG 13.23 pp.

In the above verses, Srila Prabhupada explains that marginal energy means the TENDENCY of the living entity to reject the sanction of the Lord and act independently.

So, marginal energy, or tatastha-shakti, is NOT a particular place or area in outer space where souls drop from, but it denotes the NATURE of the jiva-soul.

It refers to a living entity with the nature of independently choosing between the Lord's two energies. Therefore, the living entities DO NOT expand from the marginal energy, but their natures are called marginal. This marginal energy (jiva-soul) is an expansion of Lord Krishna, who is the origin of the living entities.

Srila Prabhupada - "If marginal energy (the living entity with its independent nature) chooses to be in contact with the external energy of the Lord, it still remains marginal. (See CC Adi 2.96)

If the marginal living entity chooses to go back to the internal energy (the spiritual world), it still keeps his marginal independence. It does not change his nature into internal energy and becomes Vishnu-tattva. Although the living entities are equal in quality to the internal potency of Krishna (which is spiritual), they nevertheless keep their marginal independence. Jiva-tattva (the marginal energy) does not turn into Vishnu-tattva (the internal energy), otherwise the living entity would turn into God Himself as in Mayavadi philosophy.

Marginal energy can be situated either in the external or internal energy of the Lord and according to the living beings free will and contact with either the material or spiritual energies, the living being is situated in proportionally higher or lower levels of existence. If marginal energy can freely choose to be situated in either external or internal energy, then marginal energy (because of his free will) can also choose to leave either external or internal energy."

Here are excerpts from two letters the Srila Prabhupada sent to Upendra prabhu regarding our 'original position'. One letter is from 1968 and one from 1969.

Srila Prabhupada - "Regarding your question, in one sense both you and Mahapurusa are right. The fact is that after the dissolution of the Universe the living entities remain in slumber within Maha Visnu, and again when the creation takes place they are impregnated in their original position and they come out in different species of life. By gradual evolutionary process, when they come to the human form there is good chance of getting out of the repeated birth and death, and one can enter into the Spiritual Realm. But if one loses this chance he is again put into the cycle of birth and death. The conditioned souls are always within the Maha Visnu Form, whereas the liberated souls in Vaikuntha, they are engaged in the service of the Lord. Constitutionally every living entity, even if he is in the Vaikuntha Loka, has chance of falling down”.

Srila Prabhupada - "Therefore the living entity is called marginal energy. But when the falldown has taken place for the conditioned soul is very difficult to ascertain. Therefore two classes are designated: eternally liberated and eternally conditioned. But for arguments sake, a living entity being marginal energy, he can't be eternally conditioned. The Time is so unlimited that the conditioned souls appear to be eternally so, but from the philosophical view he cannot be eternally conditioned. Since we cannot trace out when we have become conditioned, there is no use of arguing on this point. Better to take care first how we can get rid of this conditional existence; as much as a patient should take care for treating his disease more, and less waste his time in finding out the cause of his disease".

Please offer my blessings to the others. I hope this will meet you in good health."

A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada (end of discourse only)

The paradox here is no one never really leaves Goloka, they only dream, think and imagine they do by falling out of sync with the 'eternal present' and enter the dreams of Maha-Vishnu within His mahat-tattva creation.

The only thing that has changed is the ones awareness of 'eternal time' in relation to 'divided time' - hence it is not a division of consciousness, but rather a division of time, just like when the concept of mundane time changes while one is dreaming.

Actually when one again becomes aware of their eternal nitya-siddha body in Goloka and the eternal relationship they have with Krishna, it will be as if their baddha-jiva dream state, that has entered the dreams of the sleeping Maha-Vishnu in His mahat-tattva material creation, taking on a bogus identity of one of His material bodily creations, never existed.

On return to the 'eternal present’, or simply waking up from dreaming in the mahat-tattva, it will be as if they never left because nothing has changed in Goloka.

It is important to REALIZE that Goloka is a pure devotional place where perpetual loving service to Krsna, happens within the 'eternal present', devoid of past, future, decay and bodily absentees – every living entity is represented there by their permanent ‘svarupa’ body (Also known as the Siddha-jiva) of whom is them without beginning or end

It is Srila Prabhupada who clearly states we have created a dream existence in the material creation due to choosing to forget Krishna and the nitya-siddha body we serve Krishna as eternally

Even many present day ISKCON devotees do not understand what Srila Prabhupada has told us about our origin long ago that I was also fortunate to hear.

However, if they care to read Prabhupada’s books, they will find this material world is ALL the living entities dream, ONLY EXPERIENCED by sub-consciously leaving their real perpetual body in Goloka and then 'entering' the unlimited dream identities or vessels within the dreams of Maha Vishnu –

Srila Prabhupada – “This material creation is the spirit soul's dream. Actually all existence in the material world is a dream of Mahā-Viṣṇu, as the Brahma-saḿhitā describes –

Srila Bhaktisiddhanta - “This material world is created by the dreaming of Mahā-Viṣṇu. The real, factual platform is the spiritual world, but when the spirit soul wants to imitate the Supreme Personality of Godhead, he is put into this dreamland of material creation”.

4.29.83.http://vedabase.net/sb/4/29/83/en

Srila Prabhupada - “Everything happening within time, which consists of past, present and future, is merely a dream. This is the secret in understanding in all the Vedic literature.” SB. 4.29.2b.

Srila Prabhupada - “Of course, everyone has a particular relationship with the Lord, and that relationship is evoked by the perfection of devotional service. But in the present status of our life, we have not only forgotten the Supreme Lord, but we have forgotten our eternal relationship with the Lord”. Bhagavad-Gita, Introduction

Srila Prabhupada - “Every living being has a particular relationship with the Lord eternally, that is called svarupa. By the process of devotional service, one can revive that svarupa, and that stage is called svarupa-siddhi—perfection of one’s constitutional position. Bhagavad-Gita, Introduction. .”

Srila Prabhupada - “We have an intimate relationship with the Lord, and because we are all qualitatively one . . . the whole purpose of Bhagavad-gita is to revive our sanatana occupation, or sanatana dharma, which is the eternal occupation of the living entity “. Bhagavad-gita, Introduction. .

Srila Prabhupada - “The Lord descends to reclaim all of these fallen, conditioned souls to call them back to the sanatana eternal sky so that the sanatana living entities may regain their eternal sanatana positions of eternal association with the Lord.” Bhagavad-gita, Introduction.

Srila Prabhupada – “In his original state, there is no doubt of enjoyment; therefore, that is his real state.” Bhagavad-gita, 13.21, purport.

Srila Prabhupada – “Originally everyone (all marginal living entities) is nitya-siddha (eternally liberated)” Srimad-Bhagavatam Class 7.9.4– Mayapur, February 18, 1977

Srila Prabhupada - “Originally everyone is nitya-siddha. nitya-siddha krsna-bhakti ’sadhya’ kabhu naya sravanadi-suddha-citte karaye udaya. Every living entity originally nitya-siddha, ". Srimad-Bhagavatam Class 7.9.4– Mayapur, February 18, 1977

Srila Prabhupada - "So to go to Krishna means you will have to acquire your original, spiritual body. The spiritual body is already there, but we are now covered by this material body". By His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada Germany, June 22, 1974

Srila Prabhupada - "As living spiritual souls we are all originally Krsna conscious entities, but due to our association with matter from time immemorial, our consciousness has now become polluted by the material atmosphere." (Original Hare Krsna album)

Srila Bhaktivinoda Takura - “However, because of contact with matter, the imprisoned soul loses the memory of his original spiritual form in Vaikuntha. . . material rasas are perverted reflections of the soul's original spiritual rasas.” Prema-pradipa, p. 83

Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Prabhupada - “It is the jivas who are the attendants in His Sports. They become attached to matter, having deviated from their own essential nature as the result of their desire for enjoyment. But when again the soul . . . gains true wisdom of the transcendental region of God . . . he begins to get back his pure essential nature” Sri Caitanya's Teachings, p. 323.

Srila Prabhupada – “We have also come down from Vaikuntha some millions and millions of years ago." - Lecture on Bhagavad-gita on August 6, 1973

Srila Prabhupada – “This material creation is the spirit soul's dream. Actually all existence in the material world is a dream of Mahā-Viṣṇu, as the Brahma-saḿhitā describes –

Srila Bhaktisiddhanta - “This material world is created by the dreaming of Mahā-Viṣṇu. The real, factual platform is the spiritual world, but when the spirit soul wants to imitate the Supreme Personality of Godhead, he is put into this dreamland of material creation”. 4.29.83.http://vedabase.net/sb/4/29/83/en

Srila Prabhupada – “Existence in the impersonal Brahman is also within the category of non-Krsna consciousness. Those who are in the Brahman effulgence, they are also in the fallen condition. So there is no question of falling down from a fallen condition”. - Letter, June 13, 1970.

Srila Prabhupada said to me in the Sydney Temple room in early 1973, when he came in while I was cleaning. Srila Prabhupada had started ecstatically laughing when he saw I had put paintings of the Pancha tattva and Krsna and Balarama on the step of his Vyasa chair –

“That’s not where the Lord goes”. Srila Prabhupada said

Then after a short silence he added,

Srila Prabhupada - “Soon you will understand the illusion this temporary material world is, try to understand that YOUR real bodily form is ALWAYS in Vaikuntha” then left it at that and continued laughing at where I put these paintings while I cleaned the walls.

At the time I realized the importance at what he said which was we only dream or think we are in the material world when in perpetual reality, we (our real bodily form) is always in Goloka.

It was many, many years later when the ‘origin of the jiva’ debate AGAIN started (Actually that debate started in 1972 and ended with Prabhupada’s words to me, at least as far as I was concerned on this subject, in 1973).

Srila Prabhupada - "Established means re-establish. It is already established. That is called svarupa-siddhi. When one becomes perfectly spiritually realised, then he understands what is his relationship is. This relationship is eternal".

Srila Prabhupada - "We all have come down from Vaikuntha some millions of years ago” Lecture August 6, 1973

Srila Prabhupada: You are already in the spiritual sky, but you are simply covered. Just like the sun is already there. You are also already there…so actually we are always in the spiritual world. But when you forget Krishna by the cloud of illusion that is material. Try to understand”. From a Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture given in London, on July 30, 1971

Srila Prabhupada - “Actually we are not fallen therefore, at any moment we can revive our Krishna consciousness. As soon as we understand that, “I have nothing to do with. I am simply Krishna’s servant. Eternal servant. That’s all.lecture Tokyo Japan 1972: Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 2.9.1

Srila Prabhupada - “You are eternally liberated (nitya-siddha) but since we have become conditioned on account of our desire to enjoy materialistic way of life, from time immemorial, therefore it appears that we are eternally conditioned (nitya-baddha)” Letter to Aniruddha, dated November 14, 196

Srila Prabhupada - “Our contact with matter is just like dream. Actually we are not fallen. Therefore, because we are not fallen, at any moment we can revive our Krishna consciousness, we break the dream. Similarly, we can break this So this situation” Srila Prabhupada lecture Tokyo Japan 1972: Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 2.9.1

Srila Prabhupada – “We have got an eternal relationship with Krishna, either as father or as lover or as servant, like that. So that is self-realisation. When you will be perfect in love, in loving Krishna, then in what status of life you will love, that you will under–…That will be revealed. That is called svarupa-siddhi”. (Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture, December 7, 1974, Bombay)

Srila Prabhupada - “When the dream is finished, we come to another dream: “Oh, this is my house. This is my family. This is my bank balance.” This is going on. Dream. One dream at night, one dream at daytime. But who is dreaming? That is the living entity. So his business is different. Not dreaming, daytime dreaming and night-time dreaming. He has to come to the actual platform. That is Krsna consciousness. If he takes to Krsna consciousness, that is his actual life. Otherwise, he’s in the dreamland” Bombay, December 27, 1972

Srila Prabhupada - “Our separation from Krishna is like that. We dream this body and so many relationships with other things”. Letter to Madhuvisa Swami

Srila Prabhupada - ‘Actually, you are not conditioned. You are thinking. Just like in the dream you are thinking that tiger is eating you. You were never eaten by tiger. There is no tiger. So we have to get out of this dream. (Lecture on Sri Caitanya-caritamrta, Adi-lila 7.108–San Francisco, February 18, 1967)

Srila Prabhupada - “We cannot say therefore that we are not with Krishna. As soon as we try to become Lord, immediately we are covered by Maya. Formerly we were with Krishna in His Lila or sport” Letter to Madhuvisa Swami

[Svarupa]

Srila Prabhupada - “Just like in a dream we are thinking very long time, but as soon as we awaken we look at our watch and see it has been a moment only”

The full expression and complete potential of ALL marginal living entities is their perpetual ’svarupa’ body that is eternally situated and established within Goloka or Vaikuntha.

 

Therefore it can then be said that the marginal living entities that have miss-used their free will and chose to enter the mahat-tattva, are only temporarily trapped within the material creation, while their undying ‘svarupa’ body is currently laying dormant (hidden from their present awareness) within Goloka or Vaikuntha.

Of course this viewpoint is only from the marginal living entities perspective or standpoint within the material creation. Their conditional existence continues on until the marginal living entity again becomes responsive enough to perceive their true original Krishna Conscious bodily foundation within Goloka or Vaikuntha.

A rudimentary example of this is when someone goes away from watching a movie; they put the dvd player on hold or pause, let me explain -.

It should be noted this example does not mean the spiritual pastimes of Goloka can ever be been put on hold or pause for the benefit of the marginal living entity, such a ridicules proposal is not what I am trying to communicate here. On the other hand, from the perspective of the marginal living entity within the material world, their relationship with Krishna HAS been presently put on hold or ‘pause’ while they ‘consciously’ roam around the temporary material creation trying to enjoy in their own way.

This is only an analogy describing that the jiva soul’s relationship with Krishna CAN AND IS put on hold due to them falling out of sync with their nitya-siddha body in Goloka and ‘sub-consciously’ taking shelter within divided time within the mahat-tattva. In this way the marginal living entity forgets the eternal devotional realm of Krishna’s pastimes going on in Goloka. Such pastimes are perpetually established and founded within the never-ending ‘present’, which is the reality of Goloka and Vaikuntha.

In this way our eternal svarupa body is fully established in Goloka and has always has been there.

Srila Prabhupada -”The original home of the living entity and the Supreme Personality of Godhead is the spiritual world. In the spiritual world both the Lord and the living entities live together very peacefully”(Srimad-Bhagavatam 4.28.54, purport)

Srila Prabhupada - “Everyone has got a particular relationship with Krishna in his original, constitutional position. That will be revealed gradually as you advance in devotional service”(Nectar of Devotion lecture, 20 October 1972, Vrindaban)

Srila Prabhupada - “The living of a miserable life in the material world by dint of the soul’s choice is nicely illustrated by Milton in Paradise Lost. Similarly, by choice the soul can regain paradise and return home, back to Godhead”. Sri Caitanya Caritamrita Adi 5.22

Srila Prabhupada clearly states “Because he falls down from Brahma-sayujya (impersonal liberated condition), he thinks that may be his origin, but he does not remember that long, long, long, long ago before that even, he was with Krishna”. Letter to Australian devotees 1972

Srila Prabhupada – “Established means re-establish. It is already established. We have got different types of relationship. That is called svarupa-siddhi. Svarupa-siddhi. When you are perfect in spiritual life, you will understand what your relationship with Krishna is automatically. That is called svarupa-siddhi”. (Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture, December 7, 1974, Bombay)

Srila Prabhupada – “Similarly, we have got an eternal relationship with Krishna, either as father or as lover or as servant, like that. So that is self-realisation. When you will be perfect in love, in loving Krishna, then in what status of life you will love, that you will under–…That will be revealed. That is called svarupa-siddhi”. (Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture, December 7, 1974, Bombay)

Srila Prabhupada – ‘So svarupa-siddhi is not something artificial. When one becomes perfectly spiritually realised, then he understands what his relationship with Krishna is, and he begins his service in that relationship as father, as friend, as guru or as servant, like that. So this relationship is eternal. (Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture, December 7, 1974, Bombay)

Srila Prabhupada - ‘No one falls from the spiritual world or Vaikuntha planet, for it is the eternal abode. (Bhag. 3.16.26, purp.)

This clearly means our nitya-siddha svarupa body can NEVER leave Goloka or Vaikuntha and that WE ONLY DREAM, THINK OR IMAGINE WE LEAVE. In this way the mahat-tattva is the destination for where such dreams go. It is there they are provided with temporary bodily forms created by Maha-Vishnu who is dreaming the entire mahat-tattva or material creation aspect of the Spiritual Sky.

In this way it is Srila Prabhupada explaining to us in very simple English that we all originate from Goloka.

Tatastha does not refer to a place; it does not possess a locative meaning in the sense of being in a particular spot. Tatastha has an ontological meaning.

The jiva is a sakti of the Lord, it exists as neither Cit Sakti nor as Maya Sakti, we exist in between these two categories of saktis, and therefore we are called Tatastha or marginal. The place where water, as in a river an ocean or lake, where it meets the land, that is called tata.

The Cit Sakti is represented by the water and the Maya Sakti us represented by the land. Since we are neither the Maya Sakti nor the Cit Sakti, neither the water nor the land, we are called tatastha, or the in-between the water and the land.

The tide can cause us to be submerged in water or the tide can retreat and we can become left on the land. The jiva can be influenced and come under the dominion of the Cit Sakti or of the Maya Sakti.

Either was the constitutional position of the jiva is tatastha sakti, the marginal potency, on the margin or border between 2 other potencies.

Sri Caitanya Caritamrta Madhya 20.108-109

TRANSLATION

It is the living entity’s constitutional position to be an eternal servant of Krsna because he is the marginal energy of Krsna and a manifestation simultaneously one with and different from the Lord, like a molecular particle of sunshine or fire. Krsna has three varieties of energy”.

Yes, presently we are all dreaming as our nitya-baddha secondary self within the dreams of Maha-Vishnu while our authentic constitutional eternal self or foundation is perpetually a nitya-siddha devotee in Goloka serving Krishna?

Some interesting quotes are as follows -

Bhaktivinoda Thakura. – “However, because of contact with matter, the imprisoned soul loses the memory of his original spiritual form in Vaikuntha . . . material rasas are perverted reflections of the soul’s original spiritual rasas.’ Prema-pradipa, p. 83

Srila Prabhupada - ‘‘Only the purified soul can attain the perfection of associating with the Personality of Godhead in complete bliss and satisfaction in his constitutional state. Whoever is able to renovate such devotional perfection is never again attracted by this material world, and he never returns.’ Srimad Bhagavatam 2.2.31

Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Maharaj – “It is the jivas who are the attendants in His Sports. They become attached to matter, having deviated from their own essential nature as the result of their desire for enjoyment. But when again the soul . . . gains true wisdom of the transcendental region of God . . . he begins to get back his pure essential nature . . .’ Sri Chaitanya’s Teachings, page 323.

Srila Prabhupada - ‘ ‘By the grace of Krishna, we have complete freedom. Because the Lord is kind to us, we can live anywhere, either in the spiritual sky or in the material sky, upon whichever planet we desire. However, misuse of this freedom causes one to fall down into the material world and suffer the threefold miseries of conditioned life. The living of a miserable life in the material world by dint of the soul’s choice is nicely illustrated by Milton in Paradise Lost. Similarly, by choice, the soul can regain paradise and return home, back to Godhead.’ Caitanya-caritamrita, Adi Lila

5.22, Purport

Srila Prabhupada - ‘The original home of the living entity and the Supreme Personality of Godhead is the spiritual world. In the spiritual world both the Lord and the living entities live together very peacefully. Since the living entity remains engaged in the service of the Lord, they both share a blissful life in the spiritual world. However, when the living entity, misusing his tiny independence, wants to enjoy himself, he falls down into the material world.’ (Srimad-Bhagavatam

4.28.54, purport)

Srila Prabhupada - ‘Every living being, out of many, many billions and trillions of living beings has a particular relationship with the Lord eternally. That is called svarupa. By the process of devotional service, one can revive that svarupa, and that stage is called svarupa-siddhi–perfection of one’s constitutional position’. Introduction to the Bhagavad Gita as it is

Srila Prabhupada - ‘We are also expansions of Krishna’s form. These jivas, the living entities… Krishna is expanding in two ways, svamsa and vibhinnamsa. Svamsa means Vishnu. One extension, expansion, is just directly He Himself. And another expansion is separated from Him. That separated from Him (marginal) we are’. Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture 1.3.1-3 — San Francisco, March 28, 1968

Srila Prabhupada: Anyone, even in this world or spiritual world, he has got the propensity of coming down by misusing his little independence. It is nothing like that, that if you become president, you are secure. (Lecture, Atlanta, March 2,

1975)

So this dreaming condition (in the material creation or mahat-tattva) is called non-liberated life (inferior nitya-baddha bodiless conscious condition), and this is just like a dream. Although in this material calculation it is a long, long period, as soon as we come to Krishna consciousness (remembering our superior nitya-siddha-svarupa perpetual body) then this period is considered as a second”.

So many misunderstand our eternal constitution or eternal devotional ’svarupa’ foundations.

Paramahamsa: So we can come to the spiritual world and return?

Srila Prabhupada: Yes.

Paramahamsa: Fall down?

Srila Prabhupada: Yes. As soon as we try, “Oh, this material world is very nice,” “Yes,” Krsna says, “yes, you go . . . Otherwise what is the meaning of free will?’ Morning Walk, Cheviot Hills Golf Course May 13, 1973 Los Angeles

Ravindra Svarup Prabhu ‘ ‘When we “return” to the spiritual world, it will only be to discover that indeed we never left, and there has always been right here. We are right now with Krsna, for Krsna consciousness is our svarupa, our eternal identity and perpetual constitutional position. We need only wake up and see where we are.

All this is known to Srila Prabhupada and to the acaryas. They know how one can fall from a place no one falls from, enter into an ignorance that has always been, and return to a place one never actually left.

Because such matters are inconceivable to mundane minds, when teachers speak of such things their words may seem contradictory. But in one way or another they all tell the whole truth’ Ravindra Svarup dasa web site

Dhirasanta: Srila Prabhupada was walking in St. James’s Park, tapping his cane on the ice that had formed overnight. At one point he asked,

‘What does this mean?’

We looked at each other and wondered what we should say. Prabhupada asked again,

‘What does this mean?’

We couldn’t fathom what Prabhupada meant. Suddenly he said,

‘Ice is maya. The original constitution of water is liquid, but when it comes in contact with freezing weather it becomes hard ice. And when there is ice, there is the possibility that you may slip.’

Prabhupada may have been breaking the ice because he didn’t want anyone to slip. He continued the analogy, explaining that the heart becomes hard, but just as the sun rises and melts the ice, in the same way the continued chanting of the Hare Krishna maha-mantra softens the heart and reinstates the individual in his natural constitutional position.

If one is in an imperishable atmosphere then the very meaning of ‘imperishable’ is no one ever leaves as that constitution or foundational Krishna Conscious body they eternally are in Goloka or Vaikuntha. If they choose to reject Krishna however, they can only leave Goloka ’sub-consciously’ like one leaves their present body while dreaming.

The imperishable aspect of the jiva is ones eternal ’svarupa Krishna Conscious body’ or ones perpetual nitya-siddha constitutional position.

Therefore the ‘perishable’ (nitya-baddha consciousness) is nothing other than a dreaming condition emanating from ones imperishable marginal identity while unconscious to their full constitutional nitya-siddha identity, which is everlastingly beyond the mundane decaying effect of time, past, present and future in the material creation (mahat-tattva) and ‘always’ in Goloka due to the 'eternal present'.

Bhaktivinoda Thakura explains this in his Jaiva Dharma, chapter 15 reads as follows, explaining what imperishable means, which is beyond the confines of material time and space:

Babaji: The space and time of the spiritual world are completely different from the space and time you are experiencing in this inert world.

Material time is divided into past, present and future.

But in the spiritual world there is only the one imperishable present time.

Every event in the spiritual world is ever present. Whatever we speak or describe in the material world is under the influence of material space and material time.

Therefore, whenever we make statements such as, ‘the Jivas were created’, ‘thereafter the Jivas became bound by maya’, ‘the spiritual world became manifest’, ‘there is no aspect of maya in the constitution of the Jiva’, material time influences our language. These kinds of statements are unavoidable in our conditioned state.

For this reason, no statement concerning the Jiva and spirit is exempt from the jurisdiction of material time.

Feelings of past present and future naturally creep in. therefore, while experiencing the import of the descriptions of the spiritual world an spiritual objects, people who are devoted to pure thinking experience the changeless nature of present time.

Be very careful in this respect. Giving up the unwanted sense which is unavoidable (due to the influence of material time) try to experience the spirit…….. I know at present you will not be able to digest these subtleties so quickly.

As the spiritual influence will increase in your heart, so the spiritual understanding will easily increase, distinguishing it from the material conception.

You body is inert and so are all the bodily activities, but you are not; you are an atomic conscious being. The more you are able to understand yourself, the more you will experience yourself as superior to the material world.

Therefore, even if I explain it and you listen, you will not able to grasp it. The more you awaken your spiritual consciousness by taking shelter of the holy name, the more you will experience the spiritual world.”

(Bhaktivinoda Thakura. Jaiva Dharma, chapter 15.).

To put it simply, there are only two kinds of living entities, Vishnu tattva and jiva tattva

While some gopis ARE expansions of Radharani, others are jiva-tattva.

Just like the Pancha Tattva, four members are Vishnu tattva while the fifth is jiva tattva

Chaitanya Mahaprabhu is the combination Radha and Krishna Himself, and is the highest manifestation of God in the combined form of the Supreme couple.However Krishna is the original

Nityananda is Krishna's first personal expansion.

Advaita Acharya is a combined incarnation of Lord Vishnu & Lord Shiva (Harihara).

Gadadhara is an incarnation of Krishna's internal energy.

Srivasa is Krishna's pure devotee Narada Muni who is the only jiva tattva in the Pancha tattva.

[jeffster]

Hello Melvin,

Please correct me if I am wrong, but Dhanvantari is not Krishna's doctor; rather, you could see Him as Krishna as doctor, or more accurately, an expansion or avatar of Krishna, if you will, who descended to earth to establish Ayurveda.

Regards, jeffster/AMdas

[melvin]

 

Hello Melvin,

Please correct me if I am wrong, but Dhanvantari is not Krishna's doctor; rather, you could see Him as Krishna as doctor, or more accurately, an expansion or avatar of Krishna, if you will, who descended to earth to establish Ayurveda.

Regards, jeffster/AMdas

 

Jeffster,If Krsna didn`t need a doctor then He wouldn`t have incarnated as Dhanvantari. If Krsna didn`t need a destroyer, He wouldn`t have incarnated as Siva, etc.

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[Svarupa]

 

If one is in an imperishable atmosphere then the very meaning of ‘imperishable’ is no one ever leaves as that constitution or foundational Krishna Conscious body they eternally are in Goloka or Vaikuntha. If they choose to reject Krishna however, they can only leave Goloka ’sub-consciously’ like one leaves their present body while dreaming.

The imperishable aspect of the jiva is ones eternal ’svarupa Krishna Conscious body’ or ones perpetual nitya-siddha constitutional position.

 

:deal: :deal: :deal: :deal: :deal:

[bija]

What is Visnu's dreaming? What is jiva's illusion?

 

What is jiva's relation to hladhini shakti, to Radha and the gopies?

 

We have already proven from sastra that Radha is not jiva shakti. We have also proven from the words of Srila Bhaktivinoda that the jiva's who fell down did not receive the mercy of hladhini shakti.

 

Therefore in that fallen state we are in contact with Visnu's Mahat-tattva. But when we regain contact with spiritual substance, through buddhi yoga (bhakti yoga) - through Guru in the heart - then hladhini takes effect. Servant of the servant of the servant of Radharani.

 

 

Bhaktivinoda Thakura explains this in his Jaiva Dharma, chapter 15 reads as follows, explaining what imperishable means, which is beyond the confines of material time and space:

Babaji: The space and time of the spiritual world are completely different from the space and time you are experiencing in this inert world.

Material time is divided into past, present and future.

But in the spiritual world there is only the one imperishable present time.

Every event in the spiritual world is ever present. Whatever we speak or describe in the material world is under the influence of material space and material time. quoted by svarupa

 

I think we have our meeting point here. Thanks.

[jeffster]

Hello Melvin,

Krishna does NOT need a doctor. Krishna incarnated as Dhanvantari for OUR benefit, not His benefit. Only conditioned jiva souls in physical bodies have physical infirmities, thereby requiring the help of medical science. Krishna in His sac-cid-ananda-vigraha body cannot have physical infirmities because his body is non-physical. The Gita corroborates this when Krishna says that He is the healing herb. The herbs were given by Dhanvantari to man for man's benefit. This is one of the differences between man and God. God is bhukta, the maintainer; man is bhakta, the maintained. Man, with his physical infirmities, was in need of medical science. Dhanvantari, in His mercy, dispensed medical science to man. I understand from your other posts that you have some physical problems, and I hope that you can surmount them or learn to live with them. Be well !!

Regards, Jeffster/AMd

[melvin]

 

Hello Melvin,

Krishna does NOT need a doctor. Krishna incarnated as Dhanvantari for OUR benefit, not His benefit. Only conditioned jiva souls in physical bodies have physical infirmities, thereby requiring the help of medical science. Krishna in His sac-cid-ananda-vigraha body cannot have physical infirmities because his body is non-physical. The Gita corroborates this when Krishna says that He is the healing herb. The herbs were given by Dhanvantari to man for man's benefit. This is one of the differences between man and God. God is bhukta, the maintainer; man is bhakta, the maintained. Man, with his physical infirmities, was in need of medical science. Dhanvantari, in His mercy, dispensed medical science to man. I understand from your other posts that you have some physical problems, and I hope that you can surmount them or learn to live with them. Be well !!

Regards, Jeffster/AMd

 

Jeffster, Yah Krsna doesn`t need a doctor because his body is spiritual. But I think he needs a doctor-friend like me to spread Krsna consciousness in this material world. You see, if Krsna doesn`t need one like me, I think Krsna will make himself appear at this very moment in this material world so that people will be converted immediately to his fold.

-----

[jeffster]

Hello Melvin,

Yes, you are Krishna's loving bhakta, so he would like favorable friends like you to preach KC to the unfortunates here in the material world who do not know the goal of life. Earlier, it sounded to me, since the topic is about our spiritual body, that you meant that in your siddha-deha, eternal form, you were a friend of Krishna. But now I understand how you are thinking about this topic and it makes sense.

Even when Krishna was on the planet, not everyone decided to surrender to Him, as we understand from the Mahabharata. And in Krishna Book, in the chapter depicting the wrestling match, it is explained that everyone there saw Krishna in a different way, according to the depth of their vision. In fact, most of the people there did NOT realize that He was the Personality of Godhead.

I was touring in Vrndaban a few years ago, and as you likely know, most people there say "Hari Bol !" or "Jaya Radhe !" I saw one Brijbasi who looked different than all the others, and I said "Hari Bol !" He apparently could not speak, but he shook his head, as if to say "No." Which meant to me that even in Krishna's dhama, Vrindabana, the holiest of holy places, Krishna still allows the jiva free will, and in this case, even in Vrindaban, that particular soul was not interested in Krishna. My point is that even if Krishna were to return (and He is not scheduled to return until the Kalki avatar at the end of this Kali Yuga) people wouldn't necessarily be "converted to his fold." Only the very fortunate, the few, the humble become bhaktas. "Sa mahatma sudurlabha" - Such a great soul is very rare.

Regards,

jeffster/AMd

[jeffster]

But looking at the issue of being converted to Krishna's fold from another perspective, in Gita Krishna says that all men follow His path in all respects, and that everything rests on Him just as pearls are strung on a thread. Once having realized your siddha-deha, which is the culmination of spiritual consciousness, there is at that point nothing to convert either from or to, since the jiva has then entered full maturity in transcendental consciousness. Which is also to suggest that religions that emphasize conversion perhaps are not able to conceive of this apex of spiritual realization, let alone offer it. In other words, there is nothing really outside of Krishna. But most jivas here in the material world, not realizing this sublime factor, are blinded and lost and overwhelmed by the external energy, and exhibit only partial consciousness, according to the modes of nature which predominate in their psycho-physical make-up. So perhaps the issue is not so much being "converted to his fold," since we are already either knowingly or unknowingly in His fold, but becoming fully conscious of His pre-eminence (sp?) and becoming willing to serve Him favorably. This is apparently a gradual process for most jivas. You can perhaps explain this transcendental science to others, as well, if that is your inclination. Certainly Krishna says that preachers are very dear to Him.

Regards, jeffster/AMdas

[RamanaDasi]

 

But looking at the issue of being converted to Krishna's fold from another perspective, in Gita Krishna says that all men follow His path in all respects, and that everything rests on Him just as pearls are strung on a thread. Once having realized your siddha-deha, which is the culmination of spiritual consciousness, there is at that point nothing to convert either from or to, since the jiva has then entered full maturity in transcendental consciousness.

 

 

The self itself is Brahman:

The Self is Brahman - Brihadaranyaka Upanishad 4.4.5

 

 

But the self can rise to a higher stage of existence that it has never known:

 

upajiyā bāḍe latā 'brahmāṇḍa' bhedi' yāya

'virajā', 'brahma-loka' bhedi' 'para-vyoma' pāya

 

"As one waters the bhakti-latā-bīja, the seed sprouts, and the creeper gradually grows to the point where it penetrates the walls of this universe and goes beyond the Virajā River, lying between the spiritual world and the material world. It attains brahma-loka, the Brahman effulgence, and penetrating through that stratum, it reaches the spiritual sky and the spiritual planet Goloka Vṛndāvana. - Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta Madhya 19.153