Where is your spiritual body?

[Svarupa]

 

What is Visnu's dreaming? What is jiva's illusion?

 

Srila Prabhupada – “This material creation is the spirit soul's dream. Actually all existence in the material world is a dream of Mahā-Viṣṇu, as the Brahma-saḿhitā describes –

Srila Bhaktisiddhanta - “This material world is created by the dreaming of Mahā-Viṣṇu. The real, factual platform is the spiritual world, but when the spirit soul wants to imitate the Supreme Personality of Godhead, he is put into this dreamland of material creation”.

4.29.83.http://vedabase.net/sb/4/29/83/en

Srila Prabhupada - “Everything happening within time, which consists of past, present and future, is merely a dream. This is the secret in understanding in all the Vedic literature.” SB. 4.29.2b.

[Svarupa]

 

What is jiva's relation to hladhini shakti, to Radha and the gopies?.

 

The jiva tattva's take shelter under hladhini Shakti or the mercy of Radharani, they can never become hladhini Shakti because no jiva tattva can become Vishnu tattva - taking shelter, yes, become hladhini Shakti is not possible

 

Although obviously some Gopis are Vishnu tattva while others are jiva tattva - there is no third catorgory of souls

Srila Prabhupada explains this very clearly - ‘We are also expansions of Krishna’s form. These jivas, the living entities… Krishna is expanding in two ways, svamsa and vibhinnamsa. Svamsa means Vishnu. One extension, expansion, is just directly He Himself. And another expansion (vibhinnamsa) is separated from Him. That separated from Him (marginal) we are’. Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture 1.3.1-3 — San Francisco, March 28, 1968

In Prabhupada’s 1969 lecture on Radhastami, which he gave in London, he said, “Radharani is the pleasure potency, hladhini Shakti.”

 

Srila Prabhupada - “Without Radha, there is no meaning to Krishna, and without Krishna there is no meaning to Radha”

 

Srila Prabhupada - ‘We are also expansions of Krishna’s form. These jivas, the living entities… Krishna is expanding in two ways, svamsa and vibhinnamsa. Svamsa means Vishnu. One extension, expansion, is just directly He Himself. And another expansion (vibhinnamsa) is separated from Him. That separated from Him (marginal) we are’. Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture 1.3.1-3 — San Francisco, March 28, 1968

Srila Prabhupada - ‘“Radharani is the pleasure potency, hladhini Shakti"

There are also many many expansions of Radharani also in the catorgory of hladhini Shakti however they are not jiva tattva they are Vishnu tattva.

The jiva tattva's take shelter under hladhini Shakti or the mercy of Radharani, they can never become hladhini Shakti because no jiva tattva can become Vishnu tattva - taking shelter, yes, become hladhini Shakti is not possible

Prabhupada taught from the very beginning and always re-emphasized—that just as we have a desire to love and have pleasure, so that desire exists in the Supreme Person, Krishna. But when He wants to desire, He doesn’t desire pleasure from an ordinary person. He expands into the pleasure potency and that is Radharani.

So actually Radharani is not different from Krishna. As Prabhupada puts it in the introduction to Teachings of Lord Caitanya, “Without Radha, there is no meaning to Krishna, and without Krishna there is no meaning to Radha. Because of this, the Vaisnava philosophy first of all pays obeisance’s to and worships the internal pleasure potency of the Supreme Lord. Thus the Lord and His potency are always referred to as Radha Krishna.”

In that ‘69 Radhastami lecture Prabhupada began to sing the mantra, “Tapta kancana gaurangi radhe vrndavanesvari” He also mentioned that we should approach Radharani and then we can get Krishna’s favour.

“If we approach Krishna through Radharani, through Her mercy, then it become very easy. If Radharani recommend, “This devotee is very nice” then Krishna immediately accepts, however a fool I may be. Because Radharani recommends it, Krishna accepts.

 

Therefore in Vrndavana you will find all the devotees, they are chanting more Radha’s name than Krishna’s. Wherever you go, you will find the devotees are addressing “Jaya Radhe”.

 

You still will find in Vrndavana. They are glorifying Radharani. They are more interested in worshipping Radharani. Because however fallen I may be, if somewhere or another I can please Radharani then it’s very easy for me to understand Krishna.”

Prabhupada criticized people who didn’t understand Radharani even if they did live in Vrndavana. But somehow he was favourably moved by the simple chanting of Radhe Radhe even by seemingly ordinary people in Vrndavana.

 

I (Satsvarupa Maharaj) remember going on many morning walks with Prabhupada on Bhaktivedanta Swami Marga and sometimes rikshaw wallas would stop their rikshaw, get down, take off their shoes, make obeisance’s, and say “Jaya Radhe”.

 

In his lectures in other parts of the world Prabhupada would talk about it. And through Prabhupada’s eyes we Western disciples come to think that this was the essence of Vrndavana where even ordinary people chant Jaya Radhe. Nowhere else in the whole world, even in India, do you find that. So even if their chanting is not with full understanding Prabhupada liked it.

Another indication of Prabhupada’s deep affection for Srimati Radharani was that he would always begin his lecture by singing “Jaya Radha Madhava”. We don’t find that other Gaudiya Vaishnavas begin their lectures by singing this song as a regulative principle. But Prabhupada always did it and sometimes he would fall into deep ecstasies and not be able to speak.

We also know that Prabhupada’s father prayed that he could please become a devotee of Srimati Radharani.

Also, when Prabhupada was on the boat to America he wrote a poem in which he said, “My dear brothers, you cannot get success in Krishna consciousness unless you worship Srimati Radharani.”

Another important point is that as Radharani worshipped Krishna in the mood of separation, after Krishna left Vrndavana, so Lord Caitanya was in this mood. And the six Gosvamis took up Lord Caitanya’s demonstration of separation. Prabhupada indicates that all sincere and serious devotees in this line should also take this up. There are a few examples of his saying that.

Here is one from the 1969 Radhastami lecture. Prabhupada quoted “He radhe vrajadevike ca lalite, he nanda suno kutah”.

“Where, Radharani, where are You? Where are Your associates? Where are You, Nanda Suno, the son of Nanda Maharaja, Krishna? Where are you all? They were searching after. They never said, “I have seen Krishna dancing with the gopis. Last night I saw.” This is sahajiya.

 

They take everything very cheap. They take Krishna very cheap and Radharani very cheap as if they can see every night. No. The gosvamis don’t teach us like that. They are searching after.

 

“So we have to follow the footprints of the Gosvamis how to search out Krishna and Radharani. (We may do this in Vrndavana) or within our heart....This process of devotional service is taught by Caitanya Mahaprabhu.

 

Don’t say that very easily we have seen Krishna or seen Radharani in Rasa Lila. No not like that. Feel the separation. The more you feel separation from Krishna you should understand that you are advancing.”

Prabhupada told us, If you engage your tongue in the service of the Lord He will reveal Himself to you, “Here I am.” We should feel separation of Krishna just like Radharani, as Lord Caitanya teaches, and engage our tongues in the service of the Lord, then one day when we are mature we will see Krishna eye to eye.

This same point is described in Antya Lila Chapter 14 of Caitanya-caritamrta. Krishna dasa Kaviraja tells us that Radharani’s emotions after seeing Uddhava exactly corresponded to those of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu.

 

Then in the purport Prabhupada says that some theosophists declare, “because Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu is the Supreme Personality of Godhead, such cultivation of separation is easy for Him but difficult for the living entity. And so we can approach Krishna in any way we like.

 

To nullify this idea, Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu demonstrated practically how one can achieve love of Krishna by adopting Srimati Radharani’s mood in separation from Krishna.” (Antya lila 14 14)

Although these confidential matters are not to be cheaply taken up, yet such an esoteric doctrine as separation from Krishna in the mood of Radharani, is something Prabhupada recommends.

Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu lamented, “I found Krishna in Vrndavana, and now I have again lost Him and come to Kuruksetra. Unless one is a very highly advanced devotee, he cannot understand these intricate feelings. The author of Caitanya-caritamrta, however, has tried to explain this divyon mada as far as possible, and it is our duty simply to appreciate it as far as possible.

 

Therefore the author has made the following request, “My dear readers, simply try to hear this description with faith and love. That will help you to understand transcendental ecstasy and at last you will achieve love of God very easily.” (Antya 14.37 purport)

In the Krishna Book Prabhupada also recommend to all devotees the mood of Radharani in separation. He says that the six Gosvamis were in this mood and so was Lord Caitanya.

“He was in the role of Radharani, feeling separation of Krishna. Those who are in the disciplic succession of Madhva Gaudiya sampradaya should also feel the separation of Krishna, worshipping His transcendental form and discussing His transcendental teachings, His pastimes, His qualities entourage and association.

 

The spiritual masters should enrich the devotees to the highest devotional perfection. Feeling constant separation while engaged in the service of the Lord is the perfection of Krishna consciousness.” (Krishna Book, Chapter 34)

There are just two more short quotes that I have chosen because of Prabhupada’s personal use of words in describing Radharani. This give us another glimpse into the fact that although he didn’t indulge in talking so much about Radharani, his feelings are very great within.

One statement occurs in the first canto of Srimad Bhagavatam where he is discussing the feelings of separation felt by the members of the Yadu dynasty for Krishna:

“The feelings of separation cannot be described, but it can simply be imagined by devotees only. After His separation from Vrndavana and the innocent rural cowherd boys, girls, ladies and others, hey all felt shock through their lives, and the separation of Radharani, the most beloved cowherd girl, is beyond expression.

 

Once they met at Kuruksetra during a solar eclipse, and the feeling which was expressed by them is heart rending.” (SB 1.10. verses 9 & 10 purport)

A final quote is from Caitanya-caritamrta about the Supreme position of Radharani even in relationship to Krishna. This is spoken by Lord Caitanya while dancing at the Ratha Yatra and speaking about Radha and Krishna:

Sri Krishna continued, all the inhabitants of Vrndavana dhama—my mother, father, cowherd boyfriends and everything else—are like my life and soul. And among all the inhabitants of Vrndavana, the gopis are my very life and soul. Among the gopis, You Srimati Radharani, are the chief. Therefore you are the very life of My life.

In the purport Prabhupada says:

Srimati Radharani is the center of all Vrndavana’s activities. In Vrndavana, Krishna is the instrument of Srimati Radharani; therefore all the inhabitants of Vrndavana still chant “Jaya Radhe”.

 

From Krishna’s own statement given herein, it appears that Radharani is the Queen of Vrndavana and that Krishna is simply Her decoration. Krishna is known as Madana Mohana, the enchanter of Cupid, but Srimati Radharani is the enchanter of Krishna. (Madhya lila 13.150 verse and purport)

 

So we like to hear of Srimati Radharani from Srila Prabhupada. It is the safe and most expert way. Because, as Srila Prabhupada writes, “The spiritual master is always considered one of the confidential associates of Srimati Radharani or a manifested representative of Sri Nityananda prabhu.” (CC Adi 1.46)

note, some reseach here is from Satsvarupa Maharaj

[suchandra]

 

And for the last time, there is NO MAYA in the spiritual world. It was not maya that brought you to the material world. It was your own desire to explore the dark bank of the Viraja River.

Since there's no sastrical reference/backup for this, it is an assumption based upon logic and reason of a material brain. With the same logic and reason you can say, if it was your own desire like stated above, there must be also this option - to desire to be in Vaikuntha.

 

In other words, Kulapavana suggests, no, all the jivas desire to explore the dark bank of the Viraja River? Since this is rather a stupid assumption the question arises, if a jiva can also desire to go to Vaikuntha and be eternally situated in devotional service, there must be full knowledge of both options.

 

Without full knowledge of both options your decision to go to the material world is not a deliberate decision but an error, a misstep out of ignorance. We came here because we guessed the wrong answer. These are the kind of statements that make the whole Vaishnavism look like featherbrained.

 

God casts his children into the material prisonhouse because they made a misstep out of ignorance, chosing the wrong lot.

Somehow you lost me here.

[RamanaDasi]

With all respect, Suchandra

 

Please study the teachings of Sri Chaitanya to Srila Sanatana Goswami described in great detail in Chaitanya Charitamrta

 

The whole of this topic is dealt with in great detail in that part of CC.

 

You people may feel an allegiance to follow your Srila Prabhupada's teachings and that is good. I appreciate your devotion.

 

But it doesn't change the fact that previous Acharyas never suggested or wrote that a soul in Goloka can come out of Krishna consciousness and feel they have become embodied in a material body, say for instance in the body of a gay man. The fall from Goloka theory states that associates of Krishna become fallen souls. Such as certain gay men who have been Gurus in Iskcon. To think these characters were PREVIOUSLY in Goloka but then decided to come down to earth and be gay is sinful. This type of reasoning leads to the thinking expressed below by writer who contributes to the Sampadaya Sun web site

 

 

Pretending to be celibate when you are sexually active (whatever type) is just wrong. Further, you can be gay and be a guru: I cite Amara das ACBSP as evidence of this. However, I don't think that you can be dishonest and be a guru, at least not a very good one.

[theist]

This question cannot be properly concieved off while under the misconception of the time factor.

[RamanaDasi]

Do you followers of Iskcon think every cockroach and every grub in every smelly drain is a person engaged in nitya-lila?

 

Is every gay man cruising bars in San Francisco actually a resident of Vaikuntha taking a holiday on earth?

[theist]

 

Do you followers of Iskcon think every cockroach and every grub in every smelly drain is a person engaged in nitya-lila?

 

Is every gay man cruising bars in San Francisco actually a resident of Vaikuntha taking a holiday on earth?

 

 

I don't know what they think in Iskcon but it is obvious that you have no idea of what Prabhupada meant by "fall".

[RamanaDasi]

How is that?

 

Iskcon people say everyone here in this world used to be in the spiritual planets of Krishna - Goloka or Vaikuntha

 

My question is very reasonable. Are the grubs in a drain all souls who are really living in the spiritual world but who are dreaming they are having an excursion in the material world?

 

Like I said about the gay men cruising bars. Are the gay men in this world all souls who have come from Goloka so they can go to Miami, San Francisco and other 5 star destinations?

[theist]

 

How is that?

 

Iskcon people say everyone here in this world used to be in the spiritual planets of Krishna - Goloka or Vaikuntha

 

My question is very reasonable. Are the grubs in a drain all souls who are really living in the spiritual world but who are dreaming they are having an excursion in the material world?

 

Like I said about the gay men cruising bars. Are the gay men in this world all souls who have come from Goloka so they can go to Miami, San Francisco and other 5 star destinations?

 

 

And my response was "I don't know what they think in Iskcon but it is obvious that you have no idea of what Prabhupada meant by "fall".

 

I am not talking about Iskcon I am talking about Srila Prabhupada. I don't listen to Iskcon. There is a common misunderstanding that present day Iskcon represents Srila Prabhupada. I don't accept that.

 

And again I will say that no one can understand what Srila Prabhupada taught on the issue unless they divorce themselves intellectually at least from the concepts of past and future.

 

No one leaves the spiritual world and then comes back. This idea is contaminated by mundane time. As I am sure Svarupa has mentioned many times because there is no mundane concepting of time in spiritual consciousness There can be no such thing as "I left the spiritual world in the past and now I am working on returning" We think in this way because we are still illusioned. When we awaken we will find we never left.

 

 

In other words there is really no fall at all only the appearance of a fall.

 

 

Srila Prabhupada never taught that one moment a cowherd boy suddenly disappears and then such hundred million years he returns and everyone asks him where he has been. LOL

 

People think Srila Prabhupada contradicted himself on this point but actually he did not.

[bija]

 

....unless they divorce themselves intellectually at least from the concepts of past and future.

Fair comment this one. Sometimes I think we forget the word 'inconceivable', which is odd really considering how tiny we are and how big It is.

 

 

....People think Srila Prabhupada contradicted himself on this point but actually he did not.

 

Exactly Theist, he gave his undertstandings in accord with siddhanta on an inconceivable subject.

 

But still, I accept Ramanadasi's views that Gopies are not dreaming about drinking in bars and so on...

 

 

Brahmajyoti is the effulgence from Lord Gaura Krishna's divine body so it's source is directly from Goloka. So Brahmajyoti also pervades the space in which the spiritual planets are floating. The tatashtha (marginal) line which is the original place of all the non-nitya-siddha souls, is the part of the Brahmajyoti between the material and spiritual worlds which mostly does not contain any spiritual planets. Srila Gurudeva.

 

We need to be humble and not think we are nitya-siddhas. Instead we need to take Srila Prabhupada's and the other Acarya's advice that we are presently nitya-baddha. Then with that attitude we are able to take shelter of a higher plane. And in due course admittance into Sri Sri Radha-Krsna lila.

 

And if we were sleepy gopies (or other nitya siddha's ) dreaming about all sorts of woe...then we definately need to take shelter of a higher plane, and wake up:eek3:. (we are not nitya-siddha's and by the way this subconscious dreaming philosophy is not even Iskcon policy, as far as I know. The subconscious and unconscious realms are a part of mahat-tattva, the shadow of the brahmajyoti)

 

The siddhanta for Gaudiya's is 'humility' and not barging into a higher field (Radha-Krsna lila) but instead taking shelter of Gaura-Nitaai (panca tattva).

 

 

 

 

http://vedabase.net/cc/adi/8/31/en

 

TRANSLATION

But if one only chants, with some slight faith, the holy names of Lord Caitanya and Nityānanda, very quickly he is cleansed of all offenses. Thus as soon as he chants the Hare Kṛṣṇa mahā-mantra, he feels the ecstasy of love for God.

 

 

Śrīla Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī Ṭhākura remarks in this connection that if one takes shelter of Lord Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu and Nityānanda, follows Their instructions to become more tolerant than the tree and humbler than the grass, and in this way chants the holy name of the Lord, very soon he achieves the platform of transcendental loving service to the Lord, and tears appear in his eyes. There are offenses to be considered in chanting the Hare Kṛṣṇa mahā-mantra, but there are no such considerations in chanting the names of Gaura-Nityānanda. Therefore, if one chants the Hare Kṛṣṇa mahā-mantra but his life is still full of sinful activities, it will be very difficult for him to achieve the platform of loving service to the Lord. But if in spite of being an offender one chants the holy names of Gaura-Nityānanda, he is very quickly freed from the reactions to his offenses. Therefore, one should first approach Lord Caitanya and Nityānanda, or worship Guru-Gaurāńga, and then come to the stage of worshiping Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa. In our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, our students are first advised to worship Guru-Gaurāńga, and then, when they are somewhat advanced, the Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa Deity is installed, and they are engaged in the worship of the Lord.....

 

...One should first take shelter of Gaura-Nityānanda in order to reach, ultimately, Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa. Śrīla Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura sings in this connection:

gaurāńga balite ha'be pulaka śarīra

hari hari balite nayane ba'be nīra

āra kabe nitāi-cāńdera karuṇā karibe

saḿsāra-vāsanā mora kabe tuccha habe

viṣaya chāḍiyā kabe śuddha habe mana

kabe hāma heraba śrī-vṛndāvana

In the beginning one should very regularly chant Śrī Gaurasundara's holy name and then chant the holy name of Lord Nityānanda. Thus one's heart will be cleansed of impure desires for material enjoyment. Then one can approach Vṛndāvana-dhāma to worship Lord Kṛṣṇa. Unless one is favored by Lord Caitanya and Nityānanda, there is no need to go to Vṛndāvana, for unless one's mind is purified, he cannot see Vṛndāvana, even if he goes there. ...

 

 

Jiva Jago!

[bija]

 

Shrila B.R. Shridhara Swami: Gaura Haribol, Gaura Haribol, Gaura Haribol, ...

Devotee: Lord Nityananda Prabhu recommended that we chant Gauranga, Gauranga, Gauranga, Gauranga, Gauranga as the

proper internal ... (inaudible)

Shrila B.R. Shridhara Swami: If we have faith in that we will be more gainer then taking Krishna Naam, because there is the consideration called offenses - Krishna Naam kare aparadhera vicara, and less offense in Gaura Naam. But faith in Gauranga that is rare. To have faith in Gauranga, that is costly. But if you anyhow can gather that, then it will be more beneficial than you negotiate direct with Krishna. Direct negotiate... The offense is more possible that side and less offense here. More forgiveness. But Krishna Naam has got some universal characteristics accepted by majority of persons and Gaura Naam is not accepted in such a wider circle. So it is difficult to put faith there. But if one can have his faith, then he will be gainer, because less consideration of aparadha, offense. He has particularily come for the fallen souls. So grace is more there. But to put faith in Him that will be ...(inaudible) difficult. Until we can understand Him ontologically we cannot go by the help of our experience. Not accepted by greater circle as Krishna is accepted. So many higher scriptures are also in favor of Krishna avatara, then the wide circle they accept Krishna as Lord, but minor circle accept Gauranga as God and there are not so many scriptures supporting Him. So it is difficult to have faith in Him. But if anyhow one can come nearer, He will be more gainer.

Gauranga, Gauranga, Gauranga, Gauranga, ...

[bija]

 

And if we were sleepy gopies (or other nitya siddha's ) dreaming about all sorts of woe...then we definately need to take shelter of a higher plane, and wake up:eek3:. (we are not nitya-siddha's and by the way this subconscious dreaming philosophy is not even Iskcon policy, as far as I know. The subconscious and unconscious realms of psyche are a generated part of mahat-tattva, these archetypal realms have appearance of pure consciousness but in perverted way - hence the suffering) by bija

 

http://www.vedic-academy.com/articles/science/cosmology.htm

 

A vedic model of the multidimensional universe based on consciousness

By Marcus Schmieke, Schloß Weißenstein 1997

In vedic philosophy consciousness is considered to be the underlying reality. Inert unconscious matter is not considered to be an independent substance but a form of covered consciousness. Mind and matter are two poles of the basic polarity in this world. They are both generated by the influence of time from the underlying field of consciousness, which is called mahat-tattva in sanskrt. The mahat-tattva is on the one hand the unmanifested form of matter and on the other hand pure consciousness by nature. Therefor we will call it the matter-consciousness-field. It is a dynamic combination of the two basic energies of the supreme: the unconscious seperated energy of material space (pradhana) and the conscious energy (cit-sakti) which includes the individual spiritual souls as well as the universal conciousness of the supreme person (god). Under the influence of eternal time they interact which each other and create a dynamic surfacestructure with new qualities. This dynamic sufacestructure is the mahat-tattva which manifests it‘s internal aspect as mind and it‘s external aspect as matter. Therefor the material enegry which evolves from the mahat-tattva is a complex hierachical strucutre of internal (conscious) and external spaces which interact with each other within the etheric space or field.

This etheric space evolves from the mahat-tattva if the dynamic processes and vibrations of this matter-consciousness-field are limited. The principle of limitation, which creates borders and divides the one filed into different areas with different qualities is called ahankara in sanskrt and refers to the principle of the material ego. Under the influence of time it transforms the original field into an unlimited set of vibrations, which are geomterically orderd. This vibration-space condenses into the etherical field. Further this field is transformed step by step into a sequence of the five elements, which make up gross matter. This process of densification first transforms the element ether into the element air, then air into fire, fire into water and finally water into earth, which is the most dense form of matter. Parallely to this densification-process of external matter, the mind evolves as the internal space of consciousness. From a higher perspective both matter and mind are internal conscious space which refers to consciousness. The individual mind refers to the individual consciousness of the spiritual soul, whereas the external matter refers to the universal consiousness of the supreme being.

Individual consciousness and the consciousness of the supreme being pervade the whole material creation. Through the subtle body individual consciousness is spread all over the material body of the living entity, whereas the universal consciousness is the background of the whole material creation. The notion, that consciousness is spread all over the material body means, that all over the body processes take place, which connect the gross physical processes of the body and the senses with consciousness. According to modern scientific investigations this processes seem to be connected with quantumeffects on different levels of the physical system. Most of this models are quite complicated and can not be discussed in detail here. To give an idea we will just briefly discuss a model of the Serbian Biophysicist Djuro Koruga, which was presented at an international conference abaout cnsciousness in Belgrad 1995. In his paper he distinguishes between subconsciouness, consciousness and selfconsciousness. Alltogehter they make up our conscious experiece, but they are based on different hierachical levels of the physical system. On the deepest level, subconsciousness may be connected with microtuble-water clusters: „On the quantum machanical level of microtuble-water clusters interaction, the interior of the tube may provide electromagnetic-gravity waves coupling. On that level dynamics of equilibrium gravity-electromagnetic state under environmental weak fields influence may change states of subconsciousness and determine ist activities.“

On a more complexe level of neuronal interactions the sub-conscious processes may be condensed to conscious experiences:

„The parallel actions of many microtuble-clathrin interactions on synapses and dendrites by Golden Mean oscillations (molecular wave functions) are organized in many interconnecting networks, giving a new quality of inforrmation processing - consciousness.“

Finally Koruga suggests that „Coherent control of quantum dynamics of microtuble-water clusters inside the tube may be the basis of self-consciousness.“

In Korugas model quantum-processes on three levels (molecular, cellular and brain) create three levels of consciousness (sub-consciousness, consciousness and self-consciousness). This does not mean that cosciousness has to be a product of physical processes, but that the physical and the mental aspect of reality are related to each other through quantumprocesses on different levels. This idea is supported by the quality of quantumprocesses, to have both material and mental characteristics like discussed in a previous chapter.

According to vedic philosophy quantum processes correspond to the element air and its subtle form touch. The physical level of reality corresponds to the three spacial elements earth, water and fire, which make up all continous physical processes and elementary particles. This physical level of reality is connected to the etherical field which is the implicite order behind the material manifestation. The three-dimensional level of earth, water and fire forms the multidimensional structure of the physical universe. Different dimenisonal levels of this structure can be distinguished by their different densities. The density of a certain material substance depends on the curvature of the corresponding energyflow. According to our understanding of the vedic elements fire corresponds to an one-dimensional linear energy flow, water to a two dimensional rotative energyflow and earth to a dubble-rotative three-dimensional energyflow. Together theese three elements form the three-dimensional energyflow which creates all the atoms, elementary particles and photons as stationary systems of flowing energy.

The element air embodies all discontinous influences on this energyflow wich interupt it, change its direction or bifurcate it. This discrete impulses are controlled by the underlying etherical informationstructure, which represents the unmanifested intelligence behind material creation.

The curvature of a certain system of flowing energy has to be related to an observer. Therfore the curvature has to be compared with the size of the observer. What appears to be strongly curved for a big observer, will seem to be quite linear for a very small observer, who ca not perceive the curvature because he only sees a small part of the whole energyflow.

Like this the different dimensions of the multidimensional universe exist parallely and pervade each other. They can be perceived in principal by all living entities according to the abilities and consistence of their own senses and the developement of their consciousness. The higher the consciousness is developed, the more subtle levels of reality can be perceived by a living being.

Picture 13 gives an idea about how systems with different curvature and size can be connected to each other and be part of one universal dynamic process.

This whole system is controlled by various intelligent beings who are situated on different levels of the cosmic hierarchy according to the developement of their consciousness. All theese controllers depend on the supreme being, who gives the power to controll to all the other. He pervades the whole creation by his consciousness and is present in all atoms. Additionally he is situated in the hearts of all living entities and accompanies them on their journey through hundreds and thousands of incarrnations in the material world. Situated in the heart of the living beings, the supersoul supervises their desires and activities, and arranges their karma accordingly. In her different forms she even controlls the functions of the subtle body, like consciousness, ego, intelligence and mind. The supersoul is the origin of all abilities and facilities of the living entities, which completely depend on her guidance and shelter. Being conscious about the presence and guidance of the supersoul the living entity can strive for elevation to the spiritual world and liberate itself from the influence of material nature. Forgetting its relationship with god the living entity considers himself to be independent and tries to lord over the material nature by his own stenght. In this way he entangles himself more and more in the complex reactions on his activities and gets hoplessly lost in material struggle. His only chance for liberation is to realize his dependence on god and to surrrender unto him. This process of bhakti-yoga is described in the Bhagavad-gita as well as in other vedic scriptures, but it is also the essence of all religions on earth. This process can be started by sincerely calling out the names of god, which are revealed in different spiritual cultures around the world. The Vedas especially recommend to recite the maha-mantra, which consists only of names of god:

 

Hare Krishna Hare Krishna Krishna Krishna Hare Hare

Hare Rama Hare Rama Rama Rama Hare Hare

 

This powerful spiritual soundvibration refoms the desires of the living entities, so that they will direct them towards god-realization and devotional service. It transforms the false material ego of the soul into its real spiritual identification as an eternal part and parcel of the Lord, who is meant to be eternally situated in his transcendental loving service. This is the state of pure consciousness, which is characterized by eternal knowledge and divive bliss.

Spiritual soundvibration is identical with the represented spiritual object. On the spiritual level no diffference between an object and its name exists and therefor the name of god and god are nondifferent. By chanting the names of god in a mode of love and surrender one can realize ones eternal relationship with god and finally attain liberation in his own abode.

[bija]

You see, that which is talked about in the above article is possible for each of us. When we move forward in purification of consciousness, all truths begin to reveal in the heart spontaneously. Infact all entities consciousness from a higher plane will unite with our own minute spark (because we have realized 'service mood'), being freed of false domination and illusory seperation (ahankara)...this eventually opens to the full kingdom of God (Goloka) - the source. To use Srila Prabhupada's words - 'freed from sense gratification'. This is the beginning of Gokula (next birth) and lila...

 

 

In this birth (now), we can be graced with Vasudeva conception! Step by step the creeper grows and eventually takes full shelter (complete liberation) under the Divine Couple...

 

This is realized knowledge, far different than intellectual speculation. One does not even have to read books for such knowledge to manifest in the heart - simply because such knowledge is adhokasaja (descending from higher plane). The higher plane will admit us in due course.

 

Jaya Nityanananda! Jaya Gauranga!

 

Now lets begin the process and enter into anartha-nvritti....

 

Hare Krsna Hare Krsna Krsna Krsna Hare Hare....

[RamanaDasi]

 

And again I will say that no one can understand what Srila Prabhupada taught on the issue unless they divorce themselves intellectually at least from the concepts of past and future.

 

No one leaves the spiritual world and then comes back. This idea is contaminated by mundane time. As I am sure Svarupa has mentioned many times because there is no mundane concepting of time in spiritual consciousness There can be no such thing as "I left the spiritual world in the past and now I am working on returning" We think in this way because we are still illusioned. When we awaken we will find we never left.

 

 

The material world is a dream with a duration of 0 seconds for people in Goloka.

 

Brilliant.

 

Nobody is really in maya and everybody is full of bliss. Including the gay men with Aids who never really went cruising bars FOR ANY TIME.

 

The vultures eating dead people at the Tower of Silence at Doongerwadi in Mumbai are not really there either. Brilliant.

[theist]

 

The material world is a dream with a duration of 0 seconds for people in Goloka.

 

Brilliant.

 

Nobody is really in maya and everybody is full of bliss. Including the gay men with Aids who never really went cruising bars FOR ANY TIME.

 

The vultures eating dead people at the Tower of Silence at Doongerwadi in Mumbai are not really there either. Brilliant.

 

 

 

The material world is a dream with a duration of 0 seconds for people in Goloka.

 

 

 

 

This is a true statement but unfortunately you cannot see the truth in your own words.

 

 

 

I am sorry you still don't get it and I am not going to keep trying to explain it to you. No need to waste your brilliant sarcasm skills on me.

[theist]

What is the nature of a dream? One night I dream I am a king until I awaken in the morning. Then I immediately understand that I never was a king,Never lived in a palace, never had a hareem, it was only an illusion , a dream.

 

The next night I may dream I am being chased by a tiger but upon awakening from that dream is exposed as an illusion also.

 

Similarily when we awaken from this material dream of happiness and distress we will see our true self as we are, eternal parts of Krishna.

 

It's not difficult

[bija]

 

The next night I may dream I am being chased by a tiger but upon awakening from that dream is exposed as an illusion also.

Unfortunately (can only speak for one), I am still dreaming:sleep:. And it is a not so nice dream. (excepting the peace of knowing Big Fella, that is very nice)

 

:pray:Jiva Jago!

 

...a merry wanderer thought things was fine, a heart of refined pure gold

then he came into the light, and his dreams were not so bold

 

then the man became a child, taking little steps

he took hold of the hand that loved and judged him not

onward he did roam.... with a melted heart

[melvin]

:sleep:

What we dream when we are sleeping is for real. We maybe a king, chased by a tiger, swimming in the sea, etc. These dreaming are not illusions. We change from one body to another, appear in one scene to another. If by chance we dream we are in Goloka Vrndavana playing with Krsna`s cowherd boys, then maybe it`s time to leave the material body and go home, never to come back again to this material world. That`s why there are a number of people who die in their sleep. Because their souls want to stay permanently in those vivid dreams.

[theist]

 

:sleep:

What we dream when we are sleeping is for real. We maybe a king, chased by a tiger, swimming in the sea, etc. These dreaming are not illusions. We change from one body to another, appear in one scene to another. If by chance we dream we are in Goloka Vrndavana playing with Krsna`s cowherd boys, then maybe it`s time to leave the material body and go home, never to come back again to this material world. That`s why there are a number of people who die in their sleep. Because their souls want to stay permanently in those vivid dreams.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Not exactly melvin

[melvin]

 

Not exactly melvin

 

In other words, the self-realized soul while in the material world doesn`t know whether he is dreaming or that his waking up state is a dream or that his dreaming state is an illusion. Being fully surrendered to God, it`s Krsna who takes over the faculties of the self-realized soul.

[bija]

That's right Melvin (in a higher sense), there is God. As Paul the Apostle said, 'death has lost its sting.' That which carried the mark is cast away forever - the spiritual body is and always has been.

 

nigh nigh...

[RamanaDasi]

 

The material world is a dream with a duration of 0 seconds for people in Goloka.

 

 

This is a true statement but unfortunately you cannot see the truth in your own words.

 

I am sorry you still don't get it and I am not going to keep trying to explain it to you. No need to waste your brilliant sarcasm skills on me.

 

When Sri Krishna Chaitanya came to earth and played out his lila the time passed by just as it does in the region of transcendence. It takes time for Gurahari to eat a mango. Both here and in the transcendental world. Time didn't stop on earth because Sri Chaitanya was present, and it doesn't stop in Vaikuntha either. Only the process of decay stop. But the processes of life never stop.

 

Your whole FALL philosophy is built on mistaken presumptions.

[theist]

 

In other words, the self-realized soul while in the material world doesn`t know whether he is dreaming or that his waking up state is a dream or that his dreaming state is an illusion. Being fully surrendered to God, it`s Krsna who takes overNot exactly Melvin the faculties of the self-realized soul.

 

 

 

 

Not exactly Melvin. The self-realized soul knows he is not the dream body either subtle or gross. They are understood to both be dream bodies.

 

 

 

And yes he fully understands that Krishna is in control.

[bija]

 

Being fully surrendered to God, it`s Krsna who takes over the faculties of the self-realized soul.

 

It really depends where your level of consciousness is at. For a sadhaka who is somewhat advanced in yoga, he/she will perceive very subtle levels of existence.

 

It is like this: matter is made up of stuff, some gross and some fine - on a scale you could say relatively speaking. The more developed the person is in consciousness, then the more finer principles will be realized. Siddhis is an example, whereas someone in gross bodily consciousness really only see gross matter and some elements of the afflictive mind.

 

So the advanced sadhaka of yoga will be in connection with super-soul. Knowing very well she/he is not the mind, intelligence, and false ego. But instead (in connection with super-soul) the observer of these fine elements of the mahat-tattva. Inter-connection and mystical yoga begins there - non-ordinary states of consciousness.

 

These things need to be realized, in the human form in my opinion, to enter deeper into harmony. Prabhupada has said that bhakti yoga is the top most yoga, because it will bring one through all levels quickly, without having to stay on lower steps of the ladder.

 

Deeper than the sadhaka is the siddha (perfected one). He/she is deeply self-realized in Vasudeva conception - or also called Krsna consciousness. In that state the mind, intelligence, and ego are in beatitude (fully spiritualized) - in harmony with the full non-dual truth. For the Gaudiya Vaisnava such a state will involve raganuga bhakti and the siddha deha.

 

Melvin, it is not so uncommon for human beings to have siddhis, one just need to purify consciousness to a finer principle - then all things are known by super-souls mercy. But if one is attached to these mysteries, like some new age energy folk for example, then bondage is sure. Knowledge of finer principle can entail more suffering (especially if material desire is still prevalent - I see an example of this in american materialistic new age spiritualities and people I encounter in the game Second Life - which extract a little vedanta here and there for some subtle material happiness):

 

That is why it is said in the Veda, that the demigods are always harrased by the demons.

 

When we enter more divine nature, the safest path is devotion. Krsna says in Gita that surrender entails his full shelter. That is Vasudeva conception - as you say Melvin, Krsna takes charge.

 

Please read the big article I posted above on this page, it talks about knowlege of the Mahat-tattva and the dreaming of Visnu, as Theist is alluding to.

[ganeshiva]

interesting