Where is your spiritual body?

[theist]

Nice post bija! Svarupa is the one who has expounded a lot on the dreaming state I just mentioned it.

 

Very fine subject matter. Mental speculation cannot help us. Philosophical speculation can if we know the truth of the matter can only come by the grace of the Lord in the heart.

[bija]

 

Nice post bija! Svarupa is the one who has expounded a lot on the dreaming state I just mentioned it.

 

Thank you Theist...I know each of us has personal realization by the Lord's kindness within.

 

Haribol.

[Sarva gattah]

 

jkghjgjkh

The paramatma just sent me a text message in code to respond

 

 

jkghjgjkh

The paramatma just sent me a text message in code to respond <?xml:namespace prefix = v ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" /><v:shapetype id=_x0000_t75 stroked="f" filled="f" path="m@4@5l@4@11@9@11@9@5xe" o:preferrelative="t" o:spt="75" coordsize="21600,21600"><v:stroke joinstyle="miter"></v:stroke><v:formulas><v:f eqn="if lineDrawn pixelLineWidth 0"></v:f><v:f eqn="sum @0 1 0"></v:f><v:f eqn="sum 0 0 @1"></v:f><v:f eqn="prod @2 1 2"></v:f><v:f eqn="prod @3 21600 pixelWidth"></v:f><v:f eqn="prod @3 21600 pixelHeight"></v:f><v:f eqn="sum @0 0 1"></v:f><v:f eqn="prod @6 1 2"></v:f><v:f eqn="prod @7 21600 pixelWidth"></v:f><v:f eqn="sum @8 21600 0"></v:f><v:f eqn="prod @7 21600 pixelHeight"></v:f><v:f eqn="sum @10 21600 0"></v:f></v:formulas><v:path o:connecttype="rect" gradientshapeok="t" o:extrusionok="f"></v:path><o:lock aspectratio="t" v:ext="edit"></o:lock></v:shapetype><v:shape id=_x0000_i1025 style="WIDTH: 12pt; HEIGHT: 12pt" alt="0" type="#_x0000_t75"><v:imagedata o:href="http://www.indiadivine.org/audarya/images/smilies/biggrin.gif" src="file:///C:/DOCUME~1/Rodney/LOCALS~1/Temp/msoclip1/01/clip_image001.gif"></v:imagedata></v:shape>

To start with Bija, you are already Nitya siddha but have forgotten due to thinking you are the vessel supplied to you by Maha Vishnu.

Secondly everyone on these threads know I respect the teachings of Sridar Maharaj and Narayana Maharaj except when it comes to the point of where we originated - I have sat and listened to both devotee in India and reject their idea of 'tatastha s’akti' way back then in the 70s.

As Hrydayananda Maharaj states, Prabhupada never gave much emphasis on this word tatastha and simply tol us all that we have cone down from Vaikuntha many of millions of years ago, yes, he does put a time limit when we ALL came here.

Srila Prabhupada explains this very clearly - ‘We are also expansions of Krishna’s form. These jivas, the living entities… Krishna is expanding in two ways, svamsa and vibhinnamsa.

Srila Prabhupada “Svamsa means Vishnu. One extension, expansion, is just directly He Himself”.

Srila Prabhupada “And vibhinnamsa is separated from Him. That separated from Him (marginal) we are’. Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture 1.3.1-3 — San Francisco, March 28, 1968

Srila Prabhupada – “This material creation is the spirit soul's dream. Actually all existence in the material world is a dream of Mahā-Viṣṇu, as the Brahma-saḿhitā describes

Srila Bhaktisiddhanta - “This material world is created by the dreaming of Mahā-Viṣṇu. The real, factual platform is the spiritual world, but when the spirit soul wants to imitate the Supreme Personality of Godhead, he is put into this dreamland of material creation”.

4.29.83.http://vedabase.net/sb/4/29/83/en

Srila Prabhupada - “Everything happening within time, which consists of past, present and future, is merely a dream. This is the secret in understanding in all the Vedic literature.” SB. 4.29.2b.

my response was "I don't know what they think in Iskcon but it is obvious that you have no idea of what Prabhupada meant by "fall".

 

I am not talking about Iskcon I am talking about Srila Prabhupada. I don't listen to Iskcon. There is a common misunderstanding that present day Iskcon represents Srila Prabhupada. I don't accept that.

And again I will say that no one can understand what Srila Prabhupada taught on the issue unless they divorce themselves intellectually at least from the concepts of past and future.

No one leaves the spiritual world and then comes back. This idea is contaminated by mundane time.

 

As I am sure Svarupa has mentioned many times because there is no mundane concepting of time in spiritual consciousness There can be no such thing as

 

"I left the spiritual world in the past and now I am working on returning"

 

We think in this way because we are still illusioned. When we awaken we will find we never left.

 

In other words there is really no fall at all only the appearance of a fall.

 

Srila Prabhupada never taught that one moment a cowherd boy suddenly disappears and then such hundred million years he returns and everyone asks him where he has been. LOL

People think Srila Prabhupada contradicted himself on this point but actually he did not.- (Theist)

 

[Sarva gattah]

 

We Have Also Come Down from Vaikuntha

 

BY: GAURAGOPALA DASA <CENTER>

 

Bhaktivedanta Book Trust.

</CENTER>

 

 

Sep 16, USA (SUN) — We have also come down from Vaikuntha some millions and millions of years ago, try and understand.

 

 

 

Srila Prabhupada - “We have also come down from Vaikuntha

some millions and millions of years ago." -

Lecture on Bhagavad-gita on August 6, 1973

 

 

 

In the Spiritual Sky exists Krsna’s Supreme Planet Goloka Vrndavana surrounded by the Vaikuntha Planets established in the ‘eternal present’ where there is no past or future that has the side effect of permeance and eternal youth where nothing perishes and reality is permanent

 

 

<CENTER>

 

Bhaktivedanta Book Trust.

</CENTER>

 

 

 

Also existing sometimes in the Spiritual Sky, taking up 25% of ‘eternity’ is the mahat tattva or material creation where there is no ‘present’, only past and future that has the side effect of decay and impermanent where ‘reality’ is only temporary.

 

 

 

The following gives details

and the final proof

, as clearly explained by His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada, that all jiva/souls or marginal living entities are originally (

Which means eternally when referring to the Kingdom of God

), are actually serving Krishna perpetually, as their full devotional bodily form, right at this very moment.

 

 

 

However, presently, due to the free will and choice all marginal living entities have,

some

have chosen to forget their real eternal vigraha (form) svarupa (devotional body) that is

always

present in Krsnaloka,

just like one forgets their present biological body while dreaming

.

 

 

 

This means all living entities have an imperishable bodily form called ‘svarupa’ which is the full potential and expression of their character eternal present in Goloka even if they are ‘dreaming or thinking’ they are in the material creation (mahat tattva).

 

 

 

Many have laughed when told their existence in the material world is just the dream state they have created.

 

 

 

However, if they care to read Prabhupada’s books, they will find it is ALL their dream ONLY EXPERIENCED by 'entering' unlimited dream identities or vessels within the dreams of Maha Vishnu -

 

 

 

Srila Prabhupada

- “This material creation is the spirit soul's dream. Actually all existence in the material world is a dream of Maha-Vis?n?u, as the Brahma-samhita describes -

 

 

 

Srila Bhaktisiddhanta

- “This material world is created by the dreaming of Mah?-Vis?n?u. The real, factual platform is the spiritual world, but when the spirit soul wants to imitate the Supreme Personality of Godhead, he is put into this dreamland of material creation”. 4.29.83.

http://vedabase.net/sb/4/29/83/en

 

 

 

Srila Prabhupada

- “Everything happening within time, which consists of past, present and future, is merely a dream. This is the secret in understanding in all the Vedic literature.” SB. 4.29.2b.

 

 

Srila Prabhupada

- “Of course, everyone has a particular relationship with the Lord, and that relationship is evoked by the perfection of devotional service. But in the present status of our life, we have not only forgotten the Supreme Lord, but we have forgotten our eternal relationship with the Lord”.

Bhagavad-Gita, Introduction

 

 

 

Srila Prabhupada

- “Every living being. has a particular relationship with the Lord eternally, That is called svarupa. By the process of devotional service, one can revive that svarupa, and that stage is called svarupa-siddhi-

perfection of one’s constitutional position

.

Bhagavad-Gita, Introduction.

 

 

 

Srila Prabhupada

- “We have an intimate relationship with the Lord, and because we are all qualitatively one . . . the whole purpose of Bhagavad-gita is to revive our sanatana occupation, or sanatana dharma, which is the eternal occupation of the living entity “.

Bhagavad-Gita, Introduction.

 

 

 

Srila Prabhupada

- “The Lord descends to reclaim all of these fallen, conditioned souls to call them back to the sanatana eternal sky so that the sanatana living entities may regain their eternal sanatana positions of eternal association with the Lord.”

Bhagavad-Gita, Introduction.

 

 

 

Srila Prabhupada

- “In his original state, there is no doubt of enjoyment; therefore, that is his real state.” Bhagavad-gita, 13.21, purport.

 

 

 

Srila Prabhupada

- “Originally everyone (all marginal living entities) is nitya-siddha (eternally liberated)”

Srimad-Bhagavatam Class 7.9.4- Mayapur, February 18, 1977

 

 

 

Srila Prabhupada

- “Originally everyone is nitya-siddha. nitya-siddha krsna-bhakti ’sadhya’ kabhu naya sravanadi-suddha-citte karaye udaya. Every living entity originally nitya-siddha".

Srimad-Bhagavatam Class 7.9.4- Mayapur, February 18, 1977

 

 

 

Srila Prabhupada

- "So to go to Krishna means you will have to acquire your

original

, spiritual body.

The spiritual body is already there

, but we are now covered by this material body".

His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada Germany, June 22, 1974

 

 

 

Srila Prabhupada

- "As living spiritual souls we are all originally Krsna conscious entities, but due to our association with matter from time immemorial, our consciousness has now become polluted by the material atmosphere." (Original Hare Krsna album)

 

 

 

Srila Bhaktivinoda Takura

- “However, because of contact with matter, the imprisoned soul loses the memory of his

original spiritual form in Vaikuntha. . .

material rasas are perverted reflections of the soul's

original spiritual rasas

.”

Prema-pradipa, p. 83

 

 

 

Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Prabhupada

- “It is the jivas who are the attendants in His Sports. They become attached to matter, having deviated from their own essential nature as the result of their desire for enjoyment. But when again the soul . . . gains true wisdom of the transcendental region of God . . . he begins to get back his pure essential nature”

Sri Caitanya's Teachings, p. 323.

 

 

 

Srila Prabhupada

- “Existence in the impersonal Brahman is also within the category of non-Krsna consciousness. Those who are in the Brahman effulgence, they are also in the fallen condition. So there is no question of falling down from a fallen condition”. -

Letter, June 13, 1970.

 

 

 

Srila Prabhupada

said to me in the Sydney Temple room in early 1973, when he came in while I was cleaning. Srila Prabhupada had started ecstatically laughing when he saw I had put paintings of the Pancha tattva and Krsna and Balarama on the step of his Vyasa chair - “That’s not where the Lord goes”.

 

 

 

Then after a short silence he added,

 

 

 

Srila Prabhupada

- “Soon you will understand, try to understand also YOUR real bodily form is ALWAYS in Vaikuntha”

 

 

Then Srila Prabhupada continued laughing at where I put these paintings while I cleaned the walls. At the time I realized the importance at what he said. It was many, many years later when the ‘origin of the jiva’ debate AGAIN started (

Actually that debate started in 1972 and ended with Prabhupada’s words to me,

at least as far as I was concerned on this subject, in 1973

).

 

 

 

During the 1990s, I wondered what everyone was arguing about because Prabhupada has made it very clear that ALL marginal living entities have come down from Vaikuntha to the material world,

not as their Svarupa body

, but rather as a jiva baddha dream protrusion.

 

 

The misleading book ‘

Not even the leaves fall from Vaikuntha

’ plus the teachings of both Srila Narayana Maharaj and Srila Sridar Maharaj, who I have heard both speak on this subject, are, with all due respect, NOT the teachings that Srila Prabhupada gave us on this subject.

 

 

 

This why I am so strongly convinced that presently we are only dreaming while our real bodily self actually NEVER leaves Goloka. Frankly, I do not care what anyone says on this subject, as I have already proven on so many threads on the Internet.

 

 

 

Many people, including several sannyasis and guru’s, have called me all kinds of names like ‘sleep avadi’ to ‘dream avadi’

however, due to that personal intimate wonderful personal association with my Spiritual Master His Divine Grace Srila Prabhupada in 1973,

with all humility

, no one can ever take away from me what he said or convince me otherwise

.

 

 

 

Srila Prabhupada

- “Because he falls down from Brahma-sayujya (impersonal liberated condition), he thinks that may be his origin, but he does not remember that long, long, long, long ago before that even, he was with Krishna”. Letter to Australian devotees 1972 under Madhudvisa Swami

 

 

 

Actually we are all pure devotees, eternal associates of Krishna but we have forgotten that long, long, long, long, long ago. We have foolishly allowed ourselves to be covered, due to free will, by the cloud of selfish desires, thoughts and dreams that blocks out our memory of who we really are. Such desires place us in dream vessels within the mahat-tattva dream creation of Maha Vishnu.

 

 

 

Try to understand what Prabhupada is telling us.

 

 

 

Srila Prabhupada - "You are already in the spiritual sky

, but you are simply covered. Just like the sun is already there. You are also already there…So actually we are always in the spiritual world. But when you forget Krishna by the cloud of illusion that is material. Try to understand". In a Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture given in London, on July 30, 1971

 

 

 

Srila Prabhupada

- "Actually we are not fallen therefore,

at any moment we can revive ..

as soon as we understand that I have nothing to do with this material world I am simply Krishna's servant. Eternal servant. That's all". Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture given in London, on July 30, 1971

 

 

 

Revive in English simply means to regain or re-establish

, or in this case, wake up from this material dream and remember who we really are as a eternal nitya siddha servant of Krishna.

 

 

Srila Prabhupada

- "As soon as we understand that our svarupa body is always in Krsnaloka and that we have nothing to do with Maha-Vishnu's material world and His created bodily vessels our sub-conscious baddha-jiva condition is housed in, then we can understand we are simply Krishna's servant. Eternal servant. That's all

 

 

 

Srila Prabhupada

- "You are liberated. You are liberated. Simply just a cloud has covered you. Drive away the cloud. There is no question that you were ever (conditioned as nitya-baddha in the material world)". (

Lecture on Sri Caitanya-Caritamrita, Adi-lila 7.108--San Francisco, February 18, 1967

)

 

 

 

Srila Prabhupada

-"You are ever-liberated (meaning in our original and eternal state, we are all nitya-siddha). The sky is always spiritual but is sometimes overcrowded with cloud (known as the mahat-tattva or material creation that is in one corner of the Spiritual Sky), this is Maya (The cloud is created by Maha-Vishnu and His Wife Maya-Devi, through her powerful s'akti, controls all the bodily vessels occupied by the visiting DREAMING baddha-jivas)". (

Lecture on Sri Caitanya-Caritamrita, Adi-lila 7.108--San Francisco, February 18, 1967

)

 

 

 

Srila Prabhupada

- "Actually, you are not conditioned. You are thinking. Just like in the dream you are thinking that tiger is eating you. You were never eaten by tiger. There is no tiger. So we have to get out of this dream". (

Lecture on Sri Caitanya-Caritamrita, Adi-lila 7.108--San Francisco, February 18, 1967

)

 

 

Hare Krsna

 

 

 

From your fallen servant, Gauragopala dasa

 

 

[suchandra]

Thanks Sarva gattah - yes, that is obviously also the definition of tatastha-sakti. We, the jivas are always tatastha-sakti. Not that we become at one point like Vishnu-tattva because we're in full knowledge. But this seems present peoples' frustrated mentality - always seeking for higher and higher positions.

 

Sometimes because of our marginal nature we forget, this will always be the situation.

Krsna says in Bhagavad-gita, one who understands His transcendental body and activities, after quitting this material body, returns to Him and doesn’t come back again to this miserable world.

Just like anyone released from prison - common sense says, he won't go back to prison. He saw what it is, he has full knowledge now, he's fully enlightened, etc etc. But still - we always remain tatastha-sakti. If this would change, "he's above the option to fall down", we wouldnt be tatastha-sakti anymore but something else.

[Sarva gattah]

 

The jiva tattva's take shelter under hladhini Shakti or the mercy of Radharani, they can never become hladhini Shakti because no jiva tattva can become Vishnu tattva - taking shelter, yes, become hladhini Shakti is not possible

 

Although obviously some Gopis are Vishnu tattva while others are jiva tattva - there is no third catorgory of souls

Srila Prabhupada explains this very clearly - ‘We are also expansions of Krishna’s form. These jivas, the living entities… Krishna is expanding in two ways, svamsa and vibhinnamsa. Svamsa means Vishnu. One extension, expansion, is just directly He Himself. And another expansion (vibhinnamsa) is separated from Him. That separated from Him (marginal) we are’. Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture 1.3.1-3 — San Francisco, March 28, 1968

In Prabhupada’s 1969 lecture on Radhastami, which he gave in London, he said, “Radharani is the pleasure potency, hladhini Shakti.”

 

 

 

The living entities like us, ARE the marginal energy or tatastha sakti that is not some place or region in the universe as some suggest, but is what we are, there is no something else because there are only two types of living entities – Vishnu-tattva and jiva-tattva

The marginal living entity, jiva-tattva or other words that simple mean jiva tattva, like tatastha sakti, is a bodily form in their original full constitutional foundation and potential when they realize their true identity of who they really are and have always been, which is expressed as nitya-siddha in their innovative perpetual position.

So marginal, jiva tattva and tatastha simply means the ability to choose the land and the ocean or Goloka and the mahat-tattva. The marginal is therefore known as "tatastha sakti"

NOTE, THERE ARE 170 DIFFERENT ‘JIVA’ names that all mean jiva-tattva in different spiritual and material pastimes