Does time exist in the Spititual World?

[theist]

Does one experience linear time, as in past present and future, in the Spiritual World?

[Lotusflower]

Time Exsists for the following reasons:

Birth, Death, Old Age and Disease.

 

In the Spiritual World the above are non-exsistant. So you asked is it linear? As in is it 'conceived ' for us? Is everything the same monotonous daily trifle we have like in this World?:

 

Working, sleeping, eating, enjoying

 

Computer Games are often refered to as Linear, as in you are controlled more so in the game and don't have much indepedance to 'do what you want'.

 

So I feel you are asking are we free to do what we want in the spiritual world?

[RamanaDasi]

 

Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 3.26.17

 

My dear mother, O daughter of Svāyambhuva Manu, the time factor, as I have explained, is the Supreme Personality of Godhead, from whom the creation begins as a result of the agitation of the neutral, unmanifested nature.

 

PURPORT

 

The unmanifested state of material nature, pradhāna, is being explained. The Lord says that when the unmanifested material nature is agitated by the glance of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, it begins to manifest itself in different ways. Before this agitation, it remains in the neutral state, without interaction by the three modes of material nature. In other words, material nature cannot produce any variety of manifestations without the contact of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. This is very nicely explained in Bhagavad-gītā. The Supreme Personality of Godhead is the cause of the products of material nature. Without His contact, material nature cannot produce anything.

 

============

 

Bhagavad Gita 10. 33

 

aksaranam akaro 'smi dvandvah samasikasya ca

aham evaksayah kalo dhataham visvato-mukhah

 

Of letters I am the letter A, and among compounds I am the dual word. I am also inexhaustible time, and of creators I am Brahma, whose manifold faces turn everywhere.

 

============

 

Sri Radha, speaking through the mouth of Sri Gauranga, says She wants to worship the special moments of time when She was with Krishna:

 

CC Madhya 2.37: "Whenever I had the chance to see Lord Kṛṣṇa's face and His flute, even in a dream, two enemies would appear before Me. They were pleasure and Cupid, and since they took away My mind, I was not able to see the face of Kṛṣṇa to the full satisfaction of My eyes.

 

CC Madhya 2.38: "If by chance such a moment comes when I can once again see Kṛṣṇa, then I shall worship those seconds, moments and hours with flower garlands and pulp of sandalwood and decorate them with all kinds of jewels and ornaments."

 

 

Sri Radha worships those separate moments of time that she was with Krishna. She is not always standing together with Krishna, for sometimes she is in the mood of separation, vipralambha.

 

How can the Gopis experience separation from Krishna if there is neverending union? Krishna sometimes comes and sometimes goes. He is not motionless or static.

 

Also, during the astakaliya lila, the divine couples daily pastimes, they move from place to place and enjoy different lilas. Time passes....

[bija]

Richard L Thompson mentions that Boehm had the holograph theory of time. The psychiatrist Stanislav Grof has written a very interesting book called the Holotropic mind. Grof uses different language, but is aware of vedic thought...from what I have read he is pointing to Mahat-tattva and Pradhana type phenomena.

 

Most of these scientists have impersonal vision, but are moving into the realms of deeper consciousness with matter, which is actually defined as consciousness in Bhagavad Gita (material element). As Ramana dasi has pointed out in the Bhagavatam purport...the Lord's touch or glance one may say.

 

So really we must define what is the material world and what is the spiritual world when asking does time exist. I say this for several reasons. One is that there is basic material time that a conditioned soul experiences. Now, there is a deeper aspect to experience of time in the psyche - we have all had dejavu or visions of furure events maybe. You see there we are beginning to tap into the wonder of Maha-tattva and even to the fundamentals of pradhana in some ways. We could call these fundamentals set patterns maybe - foundational blocks.

 

So I intuit that there is tanscendence beyond the Mahat-tattva, as is also spoken about in sastra - Krsna and the planets. So there must be a dividing line, I guess that is called Viraja. I would speculate that spiritual time is even more advanced in make-up than the presently known theories of holo-tropic experience in connection with the vast hologram (that was theorized by Boehm) or that Mahat-tattva. Richard L Thompson was moving in this direction I presume, basing his studies on Spirtual Personality and transcendence from a vaisnava perspective.

 

I would say we can look at this subject matter in one simple way - considering that the sages have said that this world is shadow, therefore I would suggest that all things have a more subtle and finer principe - in a more refined perfect manner. Therefore if we were scientifically minded we could suggest that time does exist in a spiritual reality, in an inconceivable way.

 

The self realized soul, while still in the body, is free and in no way inhibited by grosser laws...even death cannot hold spirit.

 

 

finer - not linear - fully present now

The holo-experience is indescribable, but definately inconceivably one yet different - and perfectly whole. We must remember the founder of such thought was of the highest and finest theistic intellect (Sri Gauranga).

 

 

How can the Gopis experience separation from Krishna if there is neverending union? Krishna sometimes comes and sometimes goes. He is not motionless or static. posted by Ramana dasi

This is the perfect answer...the realm of lila...one yet different...there is no distance in love (because it burns in the heart and transforms into divine madness). A principle even more profound than the hologram...but as jiva we have this holographic encounter to utilize and dovetail (by God's grace).

[bhaktajan]

By Bija Prabhu:

" ... I would speculate that spiritual time is even more advanced in make-up than the presently known theories of holo-tropic experience in connection with the vast hologram

... in a more refined perfect manner.

... free and in no way inhibited by grosser laws

... definately inconceivably one yet different - and perfectly whole.

... of the highest and finest theistic intellect

... to utilize and dovetail (by God's grace)."

 

This is so superb!

 

:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

There is a different 'CASH CURRENCY' paradymn in Vaikuntha.

Rather than, "Time = Money", or

WORKMANSHIP = "MAN HOURS", or

ASSEMBLY LINE WORK = MIND NUMBING,

there is a 'spiritual-karma' that which is the status quo of thee supra-conscious athmosphere where individual liberty is preformed with endless incalculable "mellow" [i cant think of a alt word!!].

 

............................................................

When one is totally fatigued, a moments rest seems so ambrosial.

 

But such, 'ambrosial' or 'comfy-cozy-warm-feeling-all-over sort of [non-narcotic induced] reposing comfort' is not usually felt during regular waking hours --except supposedly by renunciants in repose; and maybe dutifull/selfless workers during lunch breaks; and maybe half-awake seated commuters; and maybe an exhuasted sunday night lorry driver in heavy traffic --all these states of phycho-physical 'satiation' are overlooked by toiling in the material world.

 

Sensual experience as we know it is STUNTED and limited.

The varieties of "eating, sleeping, mating, & defending" experienced in each and every single individual conscious sentient/living entity, along with their related cousin-species, from amoeba microbes to Lord Brahma --all have a common denominator as the inspiration to work & act.

 

All their choices of types of work will yield karma ---along each 'doer' is stunted in the extent to enjoy.

Stunted in the extent to enjoy or feel or 'sense' ---"thought of the highest and finest theistic intellect".

 

The heart beats and so many microscopic acts occur within the body--that we do not preceive --functions that keep us alive, while we engage in 'phantasmagoric pastimes' of our contemporaneous times.

 

shravanam, Smaranam, kirtanam vishno ... etc

[kaisersose]

Our thought process, imaginations and perceptions are only possible through our mind and senses which requires physical organs like the brain and sense organs.

 

If there is a such a realm beyond the world we know, a realm where we exist without these essential physical organs - then that existence is inconceivable by the mind. This is where the word transcendental truly applies.

 

Anything you can imagine, cannot be it.

 

Cheers

[bija]

good stuff kaisersose.

 

i have heard people theorize that all is in the dna...the shaman in vision has always spoken of serpent. the shaman is not the only one to use such symbols (words) to convey... words are of a grosser principle therefore symbol is necessary. the psyche can move toward symbol in visionary experience...but the symbol only exists because we see from a lower field (ascending)... the descending will also use word and symbol to convey.

 

bhaktivinoda thakura knew this, as do many swanlike vaisnava's. and he did not deny form (spiritual) - the intelligence that is evident and fully pervading on so many levels has captured the heart of man.

[RamanaDasi]

 

Our thought process, imaginations and perceptions are only possible through our mind and senses which requires physical organs like the brain and sense organs.

 

If there is a such a realm beyond the world we know, a realm where we exist without these essential physical organs - then that existence is inconceivable by the mind. This is where the word transcendental truly applies.

 

Anything you can imagine, cannot be it.

 

Cheers

 

 

Because God is unlimited he has the ability to appear within our limited field of perception. God makes the laws of nature, he is not subordinate to them.

[bija]

thats correct dasi...

 

and, god's energies are fully spiritual (all of them)...even the leaves of the trees that made your bhagavatam copy. spiritual substance in a way - if we can see. therefore i suggest that krsna is.

 

and that vision is not just a faith crutch - it is life>>>>>>>

 

 

Firm, ceaseless, and unshakable love of God which surpasses every other form of affection or attachment, and which is based on and inspired by a full knowledge of His transcendent majesty, is called bhakti; by that alone does one attain liberation-by no other means.

 

(Sripada Madhvacarya)

[theist]

 

Time Exsists for the following reasons:

Birth, Death, Old Age and Disease.

 

In the Spiritual World the above are non-exsistant. So you asked is it linear? As in is it 'conceived ' for us? Is everything the same monotonous daily trifle we have like in this World?:

 

Working, sleeping, eating, enjoying

 

Computer Games are often refered to as Linear, as in you are controlled more so in the game and don't have much indepedance to 'do what you want'.

 

So I feel you are asking are we free to do what we want in the spiritual world?

 

 

No I mean by linear the sense of a naturally imposed sense of progression from past to present to future.

 

 

Let's forget the word linear and not let it become a sidetrack.

[theist]

Trying to use our conception of divine lilas with Krishna as some kind of proof is rather misguided IMO considering Krishna was acting as a human being sleeping etc. Do you expect sunsets in the spiritual world causing darkness etc.

 

When non-liberated persons like us try to imagine our way into transcendence happenings inject our own anthropormorphic conceptions onto reality.

 

This is the same thing that happens when we try to conceive of actions taking place beyond the limitations of past present a future. We cannot so we imagine it must be like here.

 

Afteral how can everything in the spiritual world be happening in the Present simultaneously? The mundane mind cannot conceive of it so therefore it cannot be we think.

 

It is just like the idea of our being eternal which means no beginning and no ending. "Never was there a time that I did not exist or you or all this kings nor in the future shall any of us cease to be.

 

For those that insist there must be a past present and future in the spiritual world please try to show how that stacks up with our eternality.

 

The limit of our intellectual capacity in this matter is to know that somehow or other it is a fact that lies beyond our comprehension. And that is it without true realization.

 

 

It is like the example we all give of Krishna being the Sun and the jivas are the photons of light which have come from. This is true but where this breaks down is the Sun has a beginning and thus the photons that emanate from it have a beginning but the Sun Krishna has no beginning and neither do the sparks of light (jivas) have a beginning.

 

 

Or do you imagine that sometime Krishna was alone in darkness and then one day He decided He was tired of being alone in darkness and decided to create us. LOL

 

 

Yeah I know, things eternal are inconceivable for us but remember we are taking about God!!!!

[theist]

Originally Posted by kaisersose

Ourthought process, imaginations and perceptions are only possible throughour mind and senses which requires physical organs like the brain andsense organs.

If there is a such a realm beyond the world we know, a realm where weexist without these essential physical organs - then that existence isinconceivable by the mind. This is where the word transcendental trulyapplies.

Anything you can imagine, cannot be it.

Cheers

 

 

 

Exactly!!!!!!!!!

 

Krishna-lila as shown to us on Earth is a bridge to the actual lila in trancendence. That lila is inconceivable and not conveyable by human words or thought.

 

This is NOT to say it is a product of some imaginative author who made up a good story. The narrative of Krishna descended from the Lord Himself and is given to us in such a way that we may get a hint of the divine rasa's.

 

I will try to find the words of Bhaktivinode on this point and post it. But as kaisorsose says what we think it is is not really it.

[bija]

Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Maharaja shares his insights of the flaws of anthropomorphism in his speech Relative Worlds click here. As you know he is coming from a school of thought that is interested in the purely transcendental - so his article speaks toward the end about Goloka, and the relevance to us of that Realm.

 

He also points to flaws in gnosticism. I found something very interesting though, in his words - he speaks of the 'beautiful gnosticism'.

 

So I feel he is teaching us the rule of dovetailing, and at the same time upholding Goloka. Sharing with us the way of application, which will lead us to the goal, without getting lost.

[RamanaDasi]

 

Or do you imagine that sometime Krishna was alone in darkness and then one day He decided He was tired of being alone in darkness and decided to create us. LOL

 

 

Sri Chaitanya taught Srila Sanatan Goswami that the Lord's antaranga shakti (internal potency) that manifests the Dham, parikars (eternal associates) etc has always existed. Sri Radha, Nanda Gopa, Yashodamoyee etc have always been with Krishna. You people should read what Sri Chaitanya taught - he said to Sanatan "mukta api lilaya vigraham krtva bhagavantam bhajante". Find out what that really means if you want to know what Sri Chaitanya's teachings really are. It is all explained in Vedanta Sutra pada 4.4.1-18. Take a look. Open your eyes and see that the Vedas explain where our spiritual body is right now, and how Time is inexhaustible.

[melvin]

 

Does one experience linear time, as in past present and future, in the Spiritual World?

Time, a 25th element is under Lord Krsna`s control. There was one time Krsna was playing with his cowherd friends in the forest of Vrndavan. While passing by, Lord Brahma stole Krsna`s cowherd friends. Aware what Lord Brahma did(so that the parents of his cowherd friends would not worry why they`ve gone missing) Lord Krsna expanded himself as his cowherd friends( who went missing for 1 year). When Lord Brahma came back to return Krsna`s cowherd friends, the creator of the universe was so surprised to see that what he stole were still playing with Lord Krsna as if the incident never happened.

 

In other words, my answer to Theist`s question: Does one experience linear time, as in past present and future, in the spiritual world? It`s neither yes or no as proven by this story.

[bija]

Good one detective Melvin...so in Gokula the residents experience time (as in the cow stealing story), but when yoga-maya came into effect and the veil was lifted a wee bit, Visnu forms appeared. So yoga-maya is where it is at...

 

Jolly good Melvin, no doubt a senior member.

[melvin]

 

Good one detective Melvin...so in Gokula the residents experience time (as in the cow stealing story), but when yoga-maya came into effect and the veil was lifted a wee bit, Visnu forms appeared. So yoga-maya is where it is at...

 

Jolly good Melvin, no doubt a senior member.

 

Bija, as a senior member, can I moderate this forum now?

[Lotusflower]

 

No I mean by linear the sense of a naturally imposed sense of progression from past to present to future.

 

 

You know very well its impossible to understand eternal time with the mind;)

[Sarva gattah]

 

Does one experience linear time, as in past present and future, in the Spiritual World?

 

Obviously, every moment is eternal devoid of past and future in Goloka, but how are we idiot souls to understand such elevated mellows? It is not mundane time of the material impermanent world, and frankly if we are not pure, we will NEVER understand the 'eternal present ' concept of transcendental past, present and future TIME, that DOES AND must exist as part pf Krishna’s personal devotional Kingdom of activity, Lila pr pastime.

 

Deep question by the great theist but only realized and experienced by purification and loving service to the pure devotees of Krishna’s devotees, and Never by jnan.

[theist]

 

You know very well its impossible to understand eternal time with the mind;)

 

 

Yes I have made that point. My point is however that even the term eternal time is misleading. What is operating in the spiritual world is the ever present Now and not time the 25th element in the material world as melvin reminded us.

[Lotusflower]

 

Yes I have made that point. My point is however that even the term eternal time is misleading. What is operating in the spiritual world is the ever present Now and not time the 25th element in the material world as melvin reminded us.

 

 

So your saying basically 'what is eternal time?'.

 

I did once think if I was in Goloka looking at the cloud of the material world, and watching it everyday appearing and dissapearing what would I feel?. Imagine it. Being in the eternal world looking at the small cloud. That's one way I understand eternal time.

[melvin]

If we find it hard to understand eternal time, we must pray to Lord Kalpataru to enlighten us on the subject.

Dhruva Maharaj, a pure devotee of Krsna, who was only a four year old boy was frantically looking all over place for a lost piece of glass but when he couldn`t find it, he held his breath and started closing all the holes he could find in his body. This created a stir among the inhabitants of the world. The earth shook from under their feet as a result of what Dhruva Maharaj was doing. With Lord Brahma`s assistance, they asked Lord Vishnu from afar to pacify Dhruva Maharaj. At that instance, Lord Vishnu appeared before Dhruva Maharaj as Father Time, Lord Kalpataru.

When Dhruva Maharaj saw Father Time, he immediately stopped what he was doing and said, " Dear Lord, I was searching for my lost watch because I wanted to know exactly what the time is. But since I couldn`t find it, I got mad, held my breath and started closing all the holes I could find in my body. Now that I saw You, I`m no longer interested to know."

[suchandra]

 

Yes I have made that point. My point is however that even the term eternal time is misleading. What is operating in the spiritual world is the ever present Now and not time the 25th element in the material world as melvin reminded us.

It says, "Lord Brahma, a human being and an ant all live for one hundred years, but their lifetimes of one hundred years are different from one another. This world is a relative world, and its relative moments of time are different. Thus the one hundred years of Brahma are not the same as the one hundred years of a human being."

This explains the illusion of time - it is like a script that runs on a server and no one except the admin can change it.

 

 

Therefore what is one hundred years for me, it may be one second for you. It is relative, all relative truth. In your calculation it is one hundred years. In my calculation it is one second. Therefore Brahmā’s duration of life is described in the Bhagavad-gītā, sahasra-yuga-paryantam ahar yad brahmaṇo viduḥ [bg. 8.17]. Brahmaṇe, Here also divyam. Sahasrābdam. Now divyaṁ sahasrābdam. Brahmā’s one day, one twelve hours, daytime, we cannot calculate. Our, according to our calculation it is… Sahasra-yuga. Sahasra-yuga. Yuga. Yugas means these Satya, Tretā, Dvāpara, Kali. That means forty three hundred thousands of years. And thousand times, forty three hundred thousands of years, that makes Brahmā’s one day of twelve hours.

[melvin]

 

If we find it hard to understand eternal time, we must pray to Lord Kalpataru to enlighten us on the subject.

Dhruva Maharaj, a pure devotee of Krsna, who was only a four year old boy was frantically looking all over place for a lost piece of glass but when he couldn`t find it, he held his breath and started closing all the holes he could find in his body. This created a stir among the inhabitants of the world. The earth shook from under their feet as a result of what Dhruva Maharaj was doing. With Lord Brahma`s assistance, they asked Lord Vishnu from afar to pacify Dhruva Maharaj. At that instance, Lord Vishnu appeared before Dhruva Maharaj as Father Time, Lord Kalpataru.

When Dhruva Maharaj saw Father Time, he immediately stopped what he was doing and said, " Dear Lord, I was searching for my lost watch because I wanted to know exactly what the time is. But since I couldn`t find it, I got mad, held my breath and started closing all the holes I could find in my body. Now that I saw You, I`m no longer interested to know."

[RamanaDasi]

 

Time, a 25th element is under Lord Krsna`s control. There was one time Krsna was playing with his cowherd friends in the forest of Vrndavan. While passing by, Lord Brahma stole Krsna`s cowherd friends. Aware what Lord Brahma did(so that the parents of his cowherd friends would not worry why they`ve gone missing) Lord Krsna expanded himself as his cowherd friends( who went missing for 1 year). When Lord Brahma came back to return Krsna`s cowherd friends, the creator of the universe was so surprised to see that what he stole were still playing with Lord Krsna as if the incident never happened.

 

In other words, my answer to Theist`s question: Does one experience linear time, as in past present and future, in the spiritual world? It`s neither yes or no as proven by this story.

 

Sarva thinks that when the Vrajavasis are dreaming they are "in maya", that is, dreaming they are in connection with the material existence, no time passes in Goloka.

 

But from the story of Brahma stealing the cows and gopals it is clear that the dreams of the Vrajavasis do last for a duration of time in the material world. Brahma's one moment of material time in Brahmaloka was one year of time for the dreaming cowherd boys.

 

I think this puts to rest the entire fallacious theory that Time in the spiritual world is not synchronous with time in the material world.