Does time exist in the Spititual World?

[Beggar]

 

You cannot take one snippet from a translation of mahaprabhu prayer and construct a doctrine out of it like Lord Caitanya doesn't say we are dreaming.

 

Lord Caitanya did say "Jiv Jago Jiva Jago" Wake up sleeping souls." We are dreaming. Period.

 

First step is to realize we have been dreaming intellectually.

 

Second stage is to realize the "I am" is not the dream body but consciousness which exists beyond the body. In dream palance that would be a lucid dreamer

 

Last step is realize our eternal function which is as parts of Krishna we are His eternal servants.

 

"Jiv Jago"

 

Theist, I understand that this subject has been religiously politicized and that many of us have experienced some of the harshness that goes along with it. Try to understand that I am not giving an opposing view. Sometimes it is said that the Lord manifests the jiva souls and other times it is stated that they are eternal. Both ideas are given by the acaryas and sastra. It is not a question of one or the other being true. They are both true as different aspects of the divine that are being described so that we can understand Krsna to the point of agreeing to attempt to become saranagata or surrendered souls.

[srikanthdk71]

Dear Friends, I feel that the topic has indeed deviated and the original thought seems to be lost ie., whether time applies to the spiritual world.

 

Well, it is sad that all of us are subject to time and not able to explain it. As normaly featuring in this forum, many have taken to quotes from earlier masters. Let me try.

 

As we are aware there is Chaitanya and Jada which are the forms of Consciousness. Chaitanya pertains to Action and Jada symbolizes Inertia. Action and Inertia by itself is not subject to Kala ie., time. So, it means whatever and wherever we see action, it is Chaitanya. The smallest form being the atom where the electon is moving around the nucleus. All the action in our body is due to chaitanya and the body by itself is jada.

 

Time applies wherever there is a fusion of these two. Our body grows from infancy till death due to time. The continues fusion of action with Inertia within the body causes it to change from within. Once the body dies, the Chaitanya that exist outside the body causes it to change and decay.

 

Coming to the point which Theist has raised, the answer is, Kala is non-existant to the original form of creation. It is Kalaateeta or timeless. Time applies wherever and whenever there is a fusion of the Active and the Inert.

 

Now, if again some of you ask, what is the proof in the scriptures of what I say, I can only say that I as a soul-body entity is subject to time and no proof is needed if unless the person thinks otherwise.

[bija]

It is a fair analysis Beggar. Both realities do exist. But when it comes to bhajan (even those who experienced siddha-deha - like Bhaktivinoda) took the position of seperation - and even the humble position of Caitanya's quote you have expressed. This is mercy.

 

As far as I can understand in my own bhajan, this world is very conducive for cultivation of love in seperation. Infact, even when one can intuit the kingdom of God everywhere (even in this world) that sense of seperation is deepened. Love seems to be that way, even in its more undeveloped stages. And liberation, even amidst the greatest suffering, takes back stage. In love, lack and falleness becomes very prominent!

 

Therefore as it matures that subtle nuance remains, to enhance the various emotions. And in that lower position, all items of life can be applied in service and application. Every thought. Even for the developing neophyte.

 

I would even go further and say, that raganuga bhakti is our present lot (if we are qualified in due course). To follow the ragatmika devotees (nitya-siddhas) - not to be exactly like them, but to learn their mood. I feel as raganuga's we take the position of followers of Sri Rupa (Caitanya lila) and meditate on Sri Vrindavan Dham (in India - if you know what I mean). And in due course, with that humble bhajan we are taken to Gokula for deeper association with Ragatmika's then home>>>>Goloka. Not that we practice bhajan with the mood that we are already there!

 

I am not against seeing the world as eternally perfect and taking the vision of uttama adhikari, but I am convinced that accepting the madhyama platform and worshipping the sacred from a distance, for this time being, is the safe path of requesting admittance into Sri Sri Radha-Krsna lila.

[melvin]

 

It is a fair analysis Beggar. Both realities do exist. But when it comes to bhajan (even those who experienced siddha-deha - like Bhaktivinoda) took the position of seperation - and even the humble position of Caitanya's quote you have expressed. This is mercy.

 

As far as I can understand in my own bhajan, this world is very conducive for cultivation of love in seperation. Infact, even when one can intuit the kingdom of God everywhere (even in this world) that sense of seperation is deepened. Love seems to be that way, even in its more undeveloped stages. And liberation, even amidst the greatest suffering, takes back stage. In love, lack and falleness becomes very prominent!

 

Therefore as it matures that subtle nuance remains, to enhance the various emotions. And in that lower position, all items of life can be applied in service and application. Every thought. Even for the developing neophyte.

 

I would even go further and say, that raganuga bhakti is our present lot (if we are qualified in due course). To follow the ragatmika devotees (nitya-siddhas) - not to be exactly like them, but to learn their mood. I feel as raganuga's we take the position of followers of Sri Rupa (Caitanya lila) and meditate on Sri Vrindavan Dham (in India - if you know what I mean). And in due course, with that humble bhajan we are taken to Gokula for deeper association with Ragatmika's then home>>>>Goloka. Not that we practice bhajan with the mood that we are already there!

 

I am not against seeing the world as eternally perfect and taking the vision of uttama adhikari, but I am convinced that accepting the madhyama platform and worshipping the sacred from a distance, for this time being, is the safe path of requesting admittance into Sri Sri Radha-Krsna lila.

[/quote]

 

* The Sri Sri Radha-Krsna lila is only for men&women devotees not for boy&girl devotees because it`s a conjugal rasa. When played here on earth it`s called romance.

[theist]

 

Theist, I understand that this subject has been religiously politicized and that many of us have experienced some of the harshness that goes along with it.

[bija]

 

* The Sri Sri Radha-Krsna lila is only for men&women devotees not for boy&girl devotees because it`s a conjugal rasa. When played here on earth it`s called romance. by melvin

 

Maybe Melvin. I can only speak personally, but the best place for me at the moment is terra-firma. God has given that (place and body) in wisdom. Then oneday, one birth, I may know what love is...

 

Time exists here, and I am glad it does. I do not see much benefit in abstraction (in my bhajan), but great benefit in application. Here now, there is time to learn and purify (vaidhi-bhakti) one's mind. Then the mind will be spiritually prepared to seek rasika devotees association - and taste that conjugal rasa in its purity.

 

 

They are both true as different aspects of the divine that are being described so that we can understand Krsna to the point of agreeing to attempt to become saranagata or surrendered souls. by beggar

Accepting of where we are each at, that is a key to surrender, as Beggar is sharing (I presume).

 

 

Sri Manah Siksha by Srila Raghunatha dasa Goswami

 

Sloka Three

My dear mind! Please hear me. If you are eager to gain residence in Vraj on the platform of ragatmika-bhakti, and if you desire to obtain the direct service of nava Yugala-kisora, Sri Radha-Krsna, then birth after birth always distinctly remember and bow down with great love to Svarupa Damodara Goswami, Sri Rupa Goswami, and all other associates of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, who are the recipients of His mercy.

 

Anuvritti (translation of Bhajan-darpan of Srila Bhaktivinoda):

...The word pratijanu means life after life....therefore the devotees do not want to stop the cycle of birth and death until their bhakti reaches its final perfection of full maturity. Until then, they are prepared to take thousands of births, live in Vraj, and try to perform bhajan with love and devotion.

 

...The devotees neither want to merge in Brahman nor to accept any other type of liberation. He wants to take birth in Vraj and to attain the association of rasika Vaisnavas....

 

Bhajan-darpan can be read online here

 

 

 

[primate]

 

Time, a 25th element is under Lord Krsna`s control. There was one time Krsna was playing with his cowherd friends in the forest of Vrndavan. While passing by, Lord Brahma stole Krsna`s cowherd friends. Aware what Lord Brahma did(so that the parents of his cowherd friends would not worry why they`ve gone missing) Lord Krsna expanded himself as his cowherd friends( who went missing for 1 year). When Lord Brahma came back to return Krsna`s cowherd friends, the creator of the universe was so surprised to see that what he stole were still playing with Lord Krsna as if the incident never happened.

 

In other words, my answer to Theist`s question: Does one experience linear time, as in past present and future, in the spiritual world? It`s neither yes or no as proven by this story.

 

Linear time (as in past present and future) may not exist in reality. It seems to be just a theoretical concept we use to describe the continuous changes in our perceived world with. However, a fundamental sequential ordering of events may exist in reality. Maybe the question should be: Does one experience change/order in the spiritual world?

[ranjeetmore]

I'm sorry but isn't 99% of this discussion based on personal opinions and speculations?

 

If yes,we all know how wrong it is.

 

If you still think it is not,then please tell me how am i wrong.

 

 

Someone above said that being in the Mahat tattva is a state of experience.

This is complete sampradayic homicide.

 

Not only does it oppose the established fact that Jeevatma is ATOMIC and that the Material Manifestation emanates from the Supreme Purusha,

it basically implies that Mayavaad and Achintya bheda abheda are hardly different.

 

If you may be so kind as to provide QUOTES of any of the 6 gosvamis,Srila Bhaktivinoda,Srila Bhakti siddhanta,there can be some point of discussion but otherwise I'm sorry to say that you'll are massively misleading.

[ranjeetmore]

 

 

Srila Prabhupada: You are already in the spiritual sky, but you are simply covered. Just like the sun is already there. You are also already there…so actually we are always in the spiritual world. But when you forget Krishna by the cloud of illusion that is material. Try to understand”. From a Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture given in London, on July 30, 1971

 

TECHINICALLY,even the Mahat tattva lies within the Spiritual sky.SO ?

 

 

<O></O>

Srila Prabhupada - “Actually we are not fallen therefore, at any moment we can revive our Krishna consciousness. As soon as we understand that, “I have nothing to do with. I am simply Krishna’s servant. Eternal servant. That’s all.lecture Tokyo Japan 1972: Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 2.9.1

 

This is in exact confirmation what so many rasiks have confirmed,"Paramatma sits behind jeevatma.The jeevatma just has to turn around.He has to turn around from Maya to Bhagavan.Done.From Surrender to Maya,surrender to Bhagavan."

 

 

<O></O>

Srila Prabhupada - “You are eternally liberated (nitya-siddha) but since we have become conditioned on account of our desire to enjoy materialistic way of life, from time immemorial, therefore it appears that we are eternally conditioned (nitya-baddha)” Letter to Aniruddha, dated November 14, 1966

 

How does this mean that you are DREAMING?

That the atomic jeeva is a mere 'subconscious' projection ?

 

Does SP say that directly ?

 

This is really BAD....I'm sorry but this the last straw....Iskcon HAS FAILED.

[primate]

 

... This is really BAD....I'm sorry but this the last straw....Iskcon HAS FAILED.

 

Please explain.. I don't understand..

[melvin]

 

Please explain.. I don't understand..

 

Dear primate, maybe ranjeetmore belongs to Gaudiya Math not ISKCON

[primate]

Ah, well, that’s settled then..

[Vigraha]

 

Rasa body - brahmanjyoti - three modes of nature dream bodies

is the "progression" downward i.e. the fall.

 

And the reverse is the progressive spiritual path that takes us back home to our original consciousness.

 

This is the order how I see it

 

1 - Rasa, nitya siddha or eternal vigraha body

2 - To the baddha-jiva dream state that possesses ethereal material vessels or bodies in the mahat-tattva or the material creation of three modes of nature (dream bodies including the ethereal body being covered by many biological types of bodies.)

3 - Impersonal Brahmajyoti or Brahma sayujya achieved after the great effort to 'free the mind' from active thoughts of self centred enjoying

4 - Falling down from that already fallen state is inevitable because the nature of the soul is activity.

5 - Another attempt is given in the mahat-tattva to meet a pure devotee of Krsna and 'regain' the memory of ones eternal rasa or nitya siddha body, from which the dream state nitya-baddha consciousness originates

[theist]

Sarva,

 

Yes we have a slight difference. We on now on a level of philosophical speculation so I am keeping the door open for adjustments in my understanding.

 

I could be wrong in thinking the jiva goes through the bramajyoti after forgetting the rasa body but her is my reasoning. Remembering that there is no time in the material world I think it reasonable that on the way to the material world the jiva passes through the brahman,that is on forgetting the rasa body the jiva becomes a dot of consciousness and then continues on to the mahat-tattva.

 

Once there the jiva may regain the Brahman, and then drop again until finally realizing the goal is rasa and not sayuja he accepts a vaisnava appropriate liberation.

 

But even on the bhakti path does not one normally first realize aham brahmasmi, himself as spirit before rediscovering his rasa body.

 

This view harmonizes the view that the jiva comes into the material world from the brahman. He does "but before that he was with Krishna.."

 

Again I am not saying this is how it is I am only saying this is my present thinking.

[ranjeetmore]

 

Please explain.. I don't understand..

 

 

The Ritvik controversy...

 

The minor minor deviations from Revealed scriptural teachings that are inevitably going to snowball into major aparadhas and nonsense...

 

The glaring absense of a prema bhakta,who can actually say like SP,when he is confronted by an athiest(who challenges that if God exists why don't i see Him ?),"I Have seen Him !"...

[ranjeetmore]

I am from no sampradaya.

[ranjeetmore]

The vedanta is saying that the jeevatma is not Infinite ,but neither is he of the form of the body.

Srila Vedavyasa made 3 sutras for clearing this out.

 

If there was more to it(jeevatma) than it's atomic nature,it would have been specified in the Vedanta.

 

 

So WHAT is going on here ?

[Sarva gattah]

 

Sarva,

 

Yes we have a slight difference. We on now on a level of philosophical speculation so I am keeping the door open for adjustments in my understanding.

 

I could be wrong in thinking the jiva goes through the bramajyoti after forgetting the rasa body but her is my reasoning. Remembering that there is no time in the Spiritual world I think it reasonable that on the way to the material world the jiva passes through the brahman,that is on forgetting the rasa body the jiva becomes a dot of consciousness and then continues on to the mahat-tattva.

 

Once there the jiva may regain the Brahman, and then drop again until finally realizing the goal is rasa and not sayuja he accepts a vaisnava appropriate liberation.

 

But even on the bhakti path does not one normally first realize aham brahmasmi, himself as spirit before rediscovering his rasa body.

 

This view harmonizes the view that the jiva comes into the material world from the brahman. He does "but before that he was with Krishna.."

 

Again I am not saying this is how it is I am only saying this is my present thinking.

 

Interesting points that I am writing an essay about but first I must search Prabhupadas books and letters etc

 

 

This is the order how I see it

 

1 - Rasa, nitya siddha or eternal vigraha body

2 - To the baddha-jiva dream state that possesses ethereal material vessels or bodies in the mahat-tattva or the material creation of three modes of nature (dream bodies including the ethereal body being covered by many biological types of bodies.)

3 - Impersonal Brahmajyoti or Brahma sayujya achieved after the great effort to 'free the mind' from active thoughts of self centred enjoying

4 - Falling down from that already fallen state is inevitable because the nature of the soul is activity.

5 - Another attempt is given in the mahat-tattva to meet a pure devotee of Krsna and 'regain' the memory of ones eternal rasa or nitya siddha body, from which the dream state nitya-baddha consciousness originates

 

[Sarva gattah]

 

Obviously' date=' every moment is eternal devoid of past and future in Goloka, but how are we idiot souls to understand such elevated mellows? It is not mundane time of the material impermanent world, and frankly if we are not pure, we will NEVER understand the [b']'eternal present ' concept of transcendental past, present and future TIME, that DOES AND must exist as part of Krishna’s personal devotional Kingdom of activity, Lila pastime.

 

Deep question by the great theist but only realized and experienced by purification and loving service to the pure devotees of Krishna’s devotees, and Never by jnan.

[Beggar]

Yes, it is very difficult to understand how the jiva is manifested by the Lord since the jiva is eternal.

Dictionary.com:

man·i·fest - adj. <!--EOF_HEAD--> <!--BOF_DEF--> Clearly apparent to the sight or understanding; obvious. Or - To show or demonstrate plainly; reveal.

 

So the jiva is shown or revealed because it's existence is eternal. That is why it is said that the jiva is in the tatastha position before he is manifest. But if the jiva is eternal and beyond time, then how is there a before? Actually there isn't really but because one says manifest then there must be said that there is an unmanifest postion (to be consistent and logical) and that is the tatastha. It is compared to where the sand meets the water on the seashore. So the tatastha is the place on the seashore that is not really sand and not really water. Go down to the beach and find such a place! It doesn't really exist at all, for it is just a construct of language to try to convey an idea which is a complete paradox or acintya, inconceivable. Beyond this the Eternal Present where we are in our relationship with Krsna and His internal energy and associates. But despite all this, it is still not proper to say that, "the jivas originate in Goloka Vrndavana" or that "the jivas are presently in Goloka and dreaming that they are in the material world". It's against siddhanta to say such things because it implies that our eternal worshipable masters, the parishad devotees can fall down to a positon like ours. And to even imply such a thing is an aparadha or offense - not bhakti. And this is not my speculation. This is what I heard directly from Srila Narayana Maharaja on a morning walk in Badger last June and I am just paraphrasing. This means that to argue over the origin of the jiva is far more absurd than we first thought. Far, far more absurd. Its one thing to say that if one's house is burning, just get out, and later you can find the cause. Its another thing to feel the blazing fire coming towards you. Look what recourse those poor people took at the World Trade Center. But we are so foolish that we are trying to enjoy this holocoust, kamala-dala-jala, jīvana ṭalamala bhajahū hari-pada nīti re. Govinda das prays, "This life is tottering like a drop of water on a lotus petal; therefore you should always serve and worship the divine feet of Lord Hari."

The Crow and Tal Fruit logic given by Srila Prabhupada and what the previous acaryas have explained is enough. The different factions in this illusory quarrel on the internet are like the different blind persons who feel different parts of the elephant and then say the elephant is like this... They are all correct, but they are just not seeing the total picture.

Download: 2008-01-01 - 08 - Mukunda Datta das - Bhaja Hure Mana.mp3

[bija]

 

But despite all this, it is still not proper to say that, "the jivas originate in Goloka Vrndavana" or that "the jivas are presently in Goloka and dreaming that they are in the material world". It's against siddhanta to say such things because it implies that our eternal worshipable masters, the parishad devotees can fall down to a positon like ours. And to even imply such a thing is an aparadha or offense - not bhakti. And this is not my speculation. by beggar

There is a subtle nuance in bhajan, and yes Beggar, that would be lost...that is why siddhanta has not supported such concepts. But, this is bhajan...each to their own. It depends what siksha we follow. I will not be practicing the bhajan that Sarva is offering (siksha in), even if he continues to imply that other processes are mayavada etc.

 

As far as offence is implied..shelter of Nitai-Gaura would help...rather than rushing in... (as you know beggar, that has been the siksha all along). Worship from a distance is the bhaktisiddhanta...

[Beggar]

Good points bija. Yet why does one faction represented by Sarva, Swarupa (all Gauragopal) insists on raising the spectre of Mayavada? One could chalk it up to paranoia although I don't believe that's the full explanation. Perhaps it has to do with something like this: For instance Srila Prabhupada usually gave the angle of vision that the Holy Name is non-different than Krsna but that we are covered due to our offenses to Krsna's Name (nama-aparadhas). From the angle of vision I have heard from say Srila Sridhar Maharaja, the problem is that we are chanting nama aparadha. In other words the same idea is being expressed differently. One can describe it either way with sastric citations. So by using one explanation or the other different nuances are implied.

When we preach Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu's doctrine, impersonalists will often retort, "the truth is beyond words". So if forces us into the opposite postion, that what our gurus have given in words is reality. But for our own understanding the reality of the situation will be far more subtle. The impersonalist is a monist and in relation to him we are giving a dualistic position, that the soul is the eternal servant of the Supreme Soul. But remember, the jiva is actually simultaneously one and different from the Lord. One (potentially) in quality and different in quantity. (are we now manifesting divine qualities? There is that word again - manifest, see my last post). So Mahaprabhus followers are not really dualists but rather followers of acintya bhedAbheda tattva. Both sides of the duality are correct but with the nuances of an inconcievable reality or the adhoksaja plane. So if we approach Srila Prabhupada's general angle of vision in his description of nama aparpadha with out considering the fact that the Sanskrit word nama aparadha clearly implies something quite opposite - that the chanter is vibrating nama aparadha and not the name proper - we might fanatically, and ignorantly assume that this is some impersonal propaganda designed to discourage the sadhakas in their japa practice! But that is not true, just as it is not true that the concept of a tatastha origin of the jiva is an impersonalist ploy. It is simply and idea to convey other ideas to lead one to surrender to Krsna and engage in sadhana bhakti.

Not all aspects of the philosophy are exactly literal. In other words, the actual experience of being in Krsna lila is not the same as hearing Krsna Book read aloud over milk and bananas after spending the day distributing books. But Iskcon managers drummed such ideas into their charges heads day after day to try to keep the book scores up. The subtle nuances of Gaudiya Vaisnava siddhanta were seen as potential excuses that might neutralize a book distributor or a collector. Thus managerial expediancy depended on simplistic answers to everything and those who saw beyond this were repressed and ousted. This process reached it's apex during the Zonal Acarya era. Eventually many of the ousted and their sympathizers went to the Gaudiya Math derivatives for shelter but carried with them their resentments of Iskcon and then passed on these resentments to a new generation. Thus a backlash developed and now be see some posters being just as rigid in their "anti-fall from Goloka" outlook as are the "fall from Goloka (OOPs) " or "we are just dreaming that we fell" factions. We become a reflection of what we oppose just as we become what we passionately criticize. Better to remain dispassinate about these issues and enthusiastic to accept what is favorable for bhakti and reject what is unfavorable.

[bija]

 

So Mahaprabhus followers are not really dualists but rather followers of acintya bhedAbheda tattva.

yeps

 

 

Better to remain dispassinate about these issues and enthusiastic to accept what is favorable for bhakti and reject what is unfavorable.

yes sir..

[Sarva gattah]

<!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote -->Quote:

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>But despite all this, it is still not proper to say that, "the jivas originate in Goloka Vrndavana" or that "the jivas are presently in Goloka and dreaming that they are in the material world". It's against siddhanta to say such things because it implies that our eternal worshipable masters, the parishad devotees can fall down to a positon like ours. And to even imply such a thing is an aparadha or offense - not bhakti. And this is not my speculation. by beggar </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

<!-- END TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote -->

Well, your ‘speculation’ is wrong, there is always freewill and choice and anyone who is jiva tattva, can fall down however, most do not fall down to the material DREAM but always choose stay as a nitya-siddha serving Krsna.

But even if them, no matter what jiva tattva they are, they have a choice, they can fall down if they choose, but they (90%) choose not to be over come by maya

[theist]

 

<!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote -->Quote:

<table width="100%" border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0"><tbody><tr><td style="border: 1px solid rgb(102, 102, 102); padding-right: 3ex; padding-left: 3ex;" bgcolor="#e0e0e0">Butdespite all this, it is still not proper to say that, "the jivasoriginate in Goloka Vrndavana" or that "the jivas are presently inGoloka and dreaming that they are in the material world". It's againstsiddhanta to say such things because it implies that our eternalworshipable masters, the parishad devotees can fall down to a positonlike ours. And to even imply such a thing is an aparadha or offense -not bhakti. And this is not my speculation. by beggar </td></tr></tbody></table>

 

 

So if you don't think you can reach the same status as your spiritual master then you are certainly speculating.

 

 

This is a very dangerous philosophy. You imply that a conditioned soul once purified is not really purified. He has some eternal taint about him. Also no one can be a spiritual master who did not come from the spiritual world. In this way you limit the purifying potency of Krishna Nama which might just be an offense.