Does time exist in the Spititual World?

[theist]

 

Sarva thinks that when the Vrajavasis are dreaming they are "in maya", that is, dreaming they are in connection with the material existence, no time passes in Goloka.

 

 

He is right.

 

 

 

But from the story of Brahma stealing the cows and gopals it is clear that the dreams of the Vrajavasis do last for a duration of time in the material world. Brahma's one moment of material time in Brahmaloka was one year of time for the dreaming cowherd boys.

 

 

This example has no relation to the topic.

 

 

 

I think this puts to rest the entire fallacious theory that Time in the spiritual world is not synchronous with time in the material world.

 

 

You have got to be kidding. Yes definetly and you sure are funny.

[RamanaDasi]

 

He is right.

This example has no relation to the topic.

 

I understand your thinking now

[theist]

Even in the material world time is not synchronistic from one planet to another or from one species to another.

[bija]

 

Quote:

<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(102, 102, 102); padding-left: 3ex; padding-right: 3ex;" bgcolor="#e0e0e0"> But from the story of Brahma stealing the cows and gopals it is clear that the dreams of the Vrajavasis do last for a duration of time in the material world. Brahma's one moment of material time in Brahmaloka was one year of time for the dreaming cowherd boys. </td> </tr> </tbody></table>

 

This example has no relation to the topic. by Theist

 

Ramana dasi's realization should not be cast aside so quickly, maybe she has vijnana. Think about it, where did this pastime take place? It was not in Goloka, it was in Gokula - in another universe this pastime is taking place right now. We can go there in Naam bhajana, and we can go there next birth to enact with Lord Brahma to be purified (as he was), to be able to enter Goloka Vrindavana after full purification.

 

The concept is that the growth of the bhakti creeper within the heart penetrates all realms and is not confined by material laws and time. That is why in Naam bhajana we can experience goings on in another universe without the limit of time or material travel. Look at it this way, if we were to fly in a spaceship to that universe where the pastime is happening it would take years and the body would deterioate, but instantly through bhakti yoga there is an easy journey to other planets.

 

So she is right, while we are in this body we are under the effect of two laws - spiritual and material. In due course the finer potency totally purifies the other - and then the non-dual absolute truth appears in the heart (vijnana). Then yoga-maya and Bhakti devi arrange all things. Even utilizing the time factor for our purification.

 

So these conflicting ideas that energy is not interconnected is only due to illusion. Brahma was bewildered when yoga-maya lifted the veil - he received vijnana - but he was purified of his offence. He surrendered and realized Krsna was the supreme mystic!

 

 

This example has no relation to the topic. by Theist

A very esoteric subject, how it is related? Gokula - the appearance of Krsna in the heart. This is the door way Theist - a wonderful grace of Sri Krsna.

[RamanaDasi]

my realization today is that blind faith is an evil thing. from that evil many other evil things come into existence.

 

I saw sarva on another thread saying how Jayapataka says only Iskcon gurus should have the right to initiate outside of India. I realized today Iskcon has no value except for a certain class of people. The distortion of Chaitanyadev's philosophy by Iskcon and its by-product-philosophers is extreme. To the point where I now feel quite certain "they are not real followers of Sri Chaitanyadev at all".

 

bija you are a gentleman. I hope they never influence you or disturb you with their self-deceiving Babylon of distorted "Prabhupada-said" beliefs

 

 

Hare Krishna

[bija]

The only evil thing I see Mataji is when the offensive souls rip flesh from the body of Haridas Thakura:crazy:. Everytime my heart sends out negative to another soul I am doing that ripping (and yes it does hurt). And believe me Dasi, time or distance does not limit them bad vibes travelling:eek4: - because I live in non-ordinary states of consciousness constantly now. When a jibe is sent that I am only an intellectual with no bhakti I have to consider that I have hurt another and am receiving due.

 

Maybe the realization of mercy is the only hope - in this world full of offence. That is why I take shelter of Nityananda Gauranga Naam - and do not pride myself further.

 

Or maybe detachment, a light heart and realization of how foolish false ego is - is the real panacea. Let the body die...

 

That is why I read Stainslav Grof (in self therapy along with Naam), because I want to die to live. And I know my madness:eek3:.

 

It hurts.

[melvin]

 

The only evil thing I see Mataji is when the offensive souls rip flesh from the body of Haridas Thakura:crazy:. Everytime my heart sends out negative to another soul I am doing that ripping (and yes it does hurt). And believe me Dasi, time or distance does not limit them bad vibes travelling:eek4: - because I live in non-ordinary states of consciousness constantly now. When a jibe is sent that I am only an intellectual with no bhakti I have to consider that I have hurt another and am receiving due.

 

Maybe the realization of mercy is the only hope - in this world full of offence. That is why I take shelter of Nityananda Gauranga Naam - and do not pride myself further.

 

Or maybe detachment, a light heart and realization of how foolish false ego is - is the real panacea. Let the body die...

 

That is why I read Stainslav Grof (in self therapy along with Naam), because I want to die to live. And I know my madness:eek3:.

 

It hurts.

Bija, you know, when I suffered a heart attack on September 11, 2007 I thought I`d die. & yet to this day I`m still alive. Maybe I`m already dead and the reason why I`m still alive is because I`m living on borrowed time.

[bija]

Years ago Melvin after an NDE things changed for me. Somedays I feel as if I am dead, that I really did die then (in 1994), and this world presently is my own illusion (because I could not let go)....one foot in the door, one foot out...hey;).

 

Borrowed time for sure mate. The weird thing is, years ago I went back down the tunnel (when it said not my time), and due to not living in conventional time now, I am still going down that freakin' thing. Die to live...

 

Its a holo (hollow) world:eek3: when all have halos;).

 

dict.

hollow: 4/ deliberately deceptive

[theist]

 

Ramana dasi's realization should not be cast aside so quickly, maybe she has vijnana. Think about it, where did this pastime take place? It was not in Goloka, it was in Gokula - in another universe this pastime is taking place right now. We can go there in Naam bhajana, and we can go there next birth to enact with Lord Brahma to be purified (as he was), to be able to enter Goloka Vrindavana after full purification.

 

The concept is that the growth of the bhakti creeper within the heart penetrates all realms and is not confined by material laws and time. That is why in Naam bhajana we can experience goings on in another universe without the limit of time or material travel. Look at it this way, if we were to fly in a spaceship to that universe where the pastime is happening it would take years and the body would deterioate, but instantly through bhakti yoga there is an easy journey to other planets.

 

So she is right, while we are in this body we are under the effect of two laws - spiritual and material. In due course the finer potency totally purifies the other - and then the non-dual absolute truth appears in the heart (vijnana). Then yoga-maya and Bhakti devi arrange all things. Even utilizing the time factor for our purification.

 

So these conflicting ideas that energy is not interconnected is only due to illusion. Brahma was bewildered when yoga-maya lifted the veil - he received vijnana - but he was purified of his offence. He surrendered and realized Krsna was the supreme mystic!

 

 

A very esoteric subject, how it is related? Gokula - the appearance of Krsna in the heart. This is the door way Theist - a wonderful grace of Sri Krsna.

 

 

Sorry bija, I fail to see how your post relates to the subject matter of the thread also.

[theist]

Looks like this is another thread that has wandered away from the topic so far it appears to be irretrievable.

 

No problem

[bija]

No worries Theist, I am probably just speaking jibble anyway. I have plenty of jibble to spare... (sorry to divert the course of the river again)..

 

http://www.jibble.org/jibblemeaning.php

 

It seems to be compulsive tendency of mine (jibble).

[theist]

Not just you we all do it. Why don't you address the question directly in as few words as possible.

[melvin]

Living on borrowed time, Bija, is like a loan your bank gave you which diminished gradually as you spent it buying medicines, clothing, food, and drink in order to maintain your body for quite sometime. And yet the only way you could redeem this debt so you could secure a new loan from your lender bank is to get a loan from another bank. This borrowing and paying never ends. And when we finally die, it`s probably our children/wife/relatives who pay these debts.

[melvin]

 

No worries Theist, I am probably just speaking jibble anyway. I have plenty of jibble to spare... (sorry to divert the course of the river again)..

 

http://www.jibble.org/jibblemeaning.php

 

It seems to be compulsive tendency of mine (jibble).

 

Bija, maybe jibbling is a way of increasing the number of messages we post on the board in making it past a thousand messages in just a matter of time to qualify for senior membership.

[bija]

 

Living on borrowed time, Bija, is like a loan your bank gave you which diminished gradually as you spent it buying medicines, clothing, food, and drink in order to maintain your body for quite sometime. And yet the only way you could redeem this debt so you could secure a new loan from your lender bank is to get a loan from another bank. This borrowing and paying never ends. And when we finally die, it`s probably our children/wife/relatives who pay these debts.

thank you

 

 

Bija, maybe jibbling is a way of increasing the number of messages we post on the board in making it past a thousand messages in just a matter of time to qualify for senior membership.

2,318 posts would have to mean jibble. And not even moderator status...imagine the jibble needed for that:eek2: (just kidding).

 

Do ya do ya do ya (do ya) wanta jibble....>>>>>>

 

if all your multi av's (krsnaraja) reach over a thousand...you will reach the fame status of being called 'the great jibster'. or diploma of accomplished jibbling.

[melvin]

 

 

2,318 posts would have to mean jibble. And not even moderator status...imagine the jibble needed for that:eek2: (just kidding).

 

Do ya do ya do ya (do ya) wanta jibble....>>>>>>

 

if all your multi av's (krsnaraja) reach over a thousand...you will reach the fame status of being called 'the great jibster'. or diploma of accomplished jibbling.

 

Why not a certificate as the Great Jester, bija-my friend?

[Sarva gattah]

 

Looks like this is another thread that has wandered away from the topic so far it appears to be irretrievable.

 

No problem

 

The Spiritual Sky or it's other word 'the Brahmajyoti' is full of Spiritual Vaikuntha planets howver, within that same Spiritual Sky or Brahmajyoti, is the mahat tattva creation of Maha Vishnu.

 

Only on the IN the mahat-tattva can the impersonal aspect of the Brahmajyoti exist.

 

Technically, the entire mahat-tattva is impersonal.

 

One can only enter it as a bodiless consciousness after the living entity sub-consciously leaves THRIR REAL BODY in Goloka and is projected from their that bodily form in Goloka tp their mistaken non-Krishna conscious DREAMS

 

The nitya-baddha-jiva is actually a formless individual until Maha Vishnu provides such ‘consciousness’ a bodily vessel.

 

The Mayavadis or impersonalists cannot understand this. All they see is the mahat tattva amd the formles spark of conscious. This is due to denying the fact THAT there is Goloka and that perpetual IS the origin of ALL nitya-siddha or marginal living entities - This is called PERSONALISM

 

I have intensly searched Prabhupada's Books, letters, lectures and morning walks and found statements others were not aware of about how we came down from Vaikuntha, not as our Spiritual body, but rather as a sub-conscious projection called the baddha-jiva.

 

Srila Prabhupada: You are already in the spiritual sky, but you are simply covered. Just like the sun is already there. You are also already there…so actually we are always in the spiritual world. But when you forget Krishna by the cloud of illusion that is material. Try to understand”. From a Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture given in London, on July 30, 1971

<O></O>

Srila Prabhupada - “Actually we are not fallen therefore, at any moment we can revive our Krishna consciousness. As soon as we understand that, “I have nothing to do with. I am simply Krishna’s servant. Eternal servant. That’s all.lecture Tokyo Japan 1972: Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 2.9.1

<O></O>

Srila Prabhupada - “You are eternally liberated (nitya-siddha) but since we have become conditioned on account of our desire to enjoy materialistic way of life, from time immemorial, therefore it appears that we are eternally conditioned (nitya-baddha)” Letter to Aniruddha, dated November 14, 1966

[theist]

I agree Sarva. But even a pencil point is considered a form. The form that we have forsaken is our rasa body.

 

Now this seen through the concept of material time this appears to be a sequence of events and indeed our lanuage is such that we cannot talk of it any other way.

 

Rasa body - brahmanjyoti - three modes of nature dream bodies

is the "progression" downward i.e. the fall.

 

And the reverse is the progressive spiritual path that takes us back home to our original consciousness.

 

Once there we will not be concerned with questions like "how long have I been gonewhat time is it now" etc. because there is no thought of material time of past present future.

 

IOW we will have be as though we never did fall because we never did. Rasa is indeed eternal and can never be broken.

 

 

I kmow you know this well as evidenced by so many quotes from Srila Prabhupada in you posts.

[bhaktajan]

Rasa body - brahmanjyoti - three modes of nature dream bodies

is the "progression" downward i.e. the fall.

 

And the reverse is the progressive spiritual path that takes us back ...

as though we never did fall because we never did. Rasa is indeed eternal and can never be broken.

 

:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

By Jove, Jeeves!

Eurekas exponentially!

I do believe this chap Master Theist has broken the code --a sort of mini-rosetta stone. Don't you agree?

[Avinash]

Time in spritual world? Before discussing that, is it not important to know what is time here in this material world?

[Beggar]

 

....is the "progression" downward i.e. the fall.

 

And the reverse is the progressive spiritual path that takes us back ...

as though we never did fall because we never did. Rasa is indeed eternal and can never be broken.

 

Why always insist on that point of view? Srila Prabhupada did not and if we believe that he is accurately translating Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, neither did He:

 

ayi nanda-tanuja kinkaram

patitam mam vishame bhavambudhau

kripaya tava pada-pankaja-

sthita-dhuli-sadrisham vichintaya

O son of Maharaja Nanda (Krsna), I am Your eternal servitor, yet somehow or other I have fallen into the ocean of birth and death. Please pick me up from this ocean of death and place me as one of the atoms at Your lotus feet.

 

We have been told that Krsna is Patita Pavanana or the friend of the fallen. How will we get that mercy if we think of ourselves as perfect beings who are really in the spiritual world?

[riih.qarojamahoamaan]

I think that in the impersonal Brahmajyoti all eternity is one moment only. So there is no time in the impersonal Brahmajyoti. Elsewhere there is time of course.

[theist]

 

We have been told that Krsna is PatitaPavanana or the friend of the fallen. How will we get that mercy if wethink of ourselves as perfect beings who are really in the spiritualworld?

 

 

Sorry, you still don't get it Beggar. As long as we mis-identify with the "identities " offered us by ahankara we are fallen (forgetfull of Krishna). Once we are again Krishna conscious we will remember our true eternal selves. In that land of rememberance there is no time so the fall never really happened.

 

I really can't understand why so many people can't see this. Agree with it or disagree with I don't care but to endlessly misquote us on this point is really frustrating.

[Beggar]

 

Sorry, you still don't get it Beggar. As long as we mis-identify with the "identities " offered us by ahankara we are fallen (forgetfull of Krishna). Once we are again Krishna conscious we will remember our true eternal selves. In that land of rememberance there is no time so the fall never really happened.

 

I really can't understand why so many people can't see this. Agree with it or disagree with I don't care but to endlessly misquote us on this point is really frustrating.

What I am saying is that both viewpoints are correct from the position of bhakti jnana or knowledge in Krsna Consciousness. But this viewpoint, which is part of realization will not be there in the consciousness and substantial sentiment of a suddha bhakti praying like Mahaprabhu:

 

 

ayi nanda-tanuja kinkaram

patitam mam vishame bhavambudhau

kripaya tava pada-pankaja-

sthita-dhuli-sadrisham vichintaya

O son of Maharaja Nanda (Krsna), I am Your eternal servitor, yet somehow or other I have fallen into the ocean of birth and death. Please pick me up from this ocean of death and place me as one of the atoms at Your lotus feet.

Mahaprabhu is not praying, "Oh my Lord, I am not really in the material world but only dreaming, actually I am not really fallen". No, He and the pure devotees like Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura in his songs actually feel fallen. When a suddha Vaisnava feels fallen and prays in that separation mood, they will not consider the jnana or conception that, "we are already there but don't realize it".

[theist]

You cannot take one snippet from a translation of mahaprabhu prayer and construct a doctrine out of it like Lord Caitanya doesn't say we are dreaming.

 

Lord Caitanya did say "Jiv Jago Jiva Jago" Wake up sleeping souls." We are dreaming. Period.

 

First step is to realize we have been dreaming intellectually.

 

Second stage is to realize the "I am" is not the dream body but consciousness which exists beyond the body. In dream palance that would be a lucid dreamer

 

Last step is realize our eternal function which is as parts of Krishna we are His eternal servants.

 

"Jiv Jago"