Does time exist in the Spititual World?

[theist]

Very nice Sarva. Thank you.

[Beggar]

 

“How it is possible to understand, that in the spiritual world there is no past and the future? For example, if I have drunk a glass of water, it means, that process of drinking has remained in the past!

 

 

This is like saying because there is no "duality" in the spiritual world there is no up and down or demarcation between where Krsna's body begins or ends. Actually there is no material duality, but there is certainly a spiritual duality, such the Lord and His sevitors. They are one in quality but different in quanitity.

 

 

In the spiritual world, Krsna is continuously present to His parts and parcel living entities.

 

This sounds like a santa rasa conception in jnana bhakti. When Uddhava explained such a concept to gopis in Vraja they told him that they were not phlilosophers but just simple cowherd girls. They explained their plight like this, "we do not care about remembering Krsna, our problem is that we cannot forget Him." Then Uddhava pondered this, and began to realize that the gopis were like a giant tidal wave of bhakti and he felt like he was about one foot tall in their presence.

[ranjeetmore]

 

 

 

tasya va etasya purusasya dve eva sthane

 

 

 

bhavata idan ca paraloka-sthanan ca

 

 

 

sandhyam trtiyam svapna-sthanam

 

 

 

tasmin sandhye sthane tisthann ete ubhe

 

 

 

sthane pasyatidan ca paraloka-sthanan ca

 

 

 

Brhad-aranyaka Upanisad (4.3.9)

 

 

 

 

There are two positions about which the jiva-purusa should inquire – the inanimate material world, and the spiritual world. The jiva is situated in a third position, which is a dreamlike condition (svapna-sthana), and is the juncture (tatastha) between the other two. Being situated at the place where the two worlds meet, he sees both the jada-jagat (inert world) and the cid-jagat (spiritual world).

 

 

 

Vrajanatha: What is the tatastha-svabhava (marginal nature)?

Babaji: It is the nature that enables one to be situated between both worlds, and to see both sides. Tatastha-svabhava is the eligibility to come under the control of either of the saktis. Sometimes the shore is submerged in the river because of erosion, and then again it becomes one with the land because the river changes its course. If the jiva looks in the direction of Krsna – that is, towards the spiritual world – he is influenced by Krsna sakti. He then enters the spiritual world, and serves Bhagavan in his pure, conscious, spiritual form. However, if he looks towards maya, he becomes opposed to Krsna and is incarcerated by maya. This dual-faceted nature is called the tatastha-svabhava (marginal nature).

 

 

 

This means Jeeva is situated LITERALLY between Maya and Sri Bhagavan.So much for the non-existence of Tatastha position.

 

***

Please read this carefully :

 

 

babaji:

Innumerable jivas appear from Sri Baladeva Prabhu to serve Vrndavana-vihari Sri Krsna as His eternal associates in Goloka Vrndavana, and others appear from Sri Sankarsana to serve the Lord of Vaikuntha, Sri Narayana, in the spiritual sky. Eternally relishing rasa, engaged in the service of their worshipable Lord, they always remain fixed in their constitutional position. They always strive to please Bhagavan, and are always attentive to Him. Having attained the strength of cit-sakti, they are always strong. They have no connection with the material energy. In fact, they do not know if there is a bewildering energy called maya or not. Since they reside in the spiritual world, MAYA IS VERY FAR AWAY AND DOES NOT AFFECT THEM AT ALL. Always absorbed in the bliss of serving their worshipable Lord, they are eternally liberated and are free from material happiness and distress. Their life is love alone, and they are not even conscious of misery, death or fear.

 

 

“There are also innumerable, atomic, conscious jivas who emanate as rays in Karanodakasayi Maha-Visnu’s glance upon His mayasakti. Since these jivas ARE SITUATED NEXT TO MAYA, they perceive her wonderful workings. Although they have all the qualities of the jivas that I have already described, because of their minute and marginal nature, they sometimes look to the spiritual world, and sometimes to the material world. In this marginal condition, the jiva is very weak because at that time he has not attained spiritual strength from the mercy of the object of his worship (seva-vastu). Among these unlimited jivas, those who want to enjoy maya become engrossed in mundane sense gratification and enter the state of nitya-baddha. On the other hand, the jivas who perform cidanusilanam of Bhagavan receive spiritual sakti (cid-bala) by His mercy, and enter the spiritual world. Baba!(Addressing Vrajanatha) It is our great misfortune that we have forgotten our service to Sri Krsna, and have become bound in the shackles of maya. Only because we have forgotten our constitutional position, are we in this deplorable condition.”

 

Vrajanatha: How can the shackles of maya bind the atomic, conscious

jivas?

Babaji: Objects of this material world cannot touch spiritual objects. However, as soon as the jiva develops the conception that he is an enjoyer of maya, his atomic, spiritual form is covered by the subtle body made of false ego. That is how the shackles of maya bind his legs. The jivas having a sattvika ego reside in the higher planets and are called devatas; their legs are bound by sattvika shackles made of gold. The rajasika-jivas have a mixture of the propensities of the devatas and of the human beings, and they are confined in rajasika shackles made of silver. And the tamasika jivas, who are mad to taste jadananda (bliss derived from dull matter), are bound in tamasika iron shackles. Once the jivas are bound in these shackles, they cannot leave the prison. Even though they suffer various types of miseries, they remain in captivity.

Thus there is NO SUCH THING as a 'subconscious projection' and a 'dream-like state'.It is all just what you people have invented.I'm sorry but you need to really be alert and not do something like this...

[theist]

 

This means Jeeva is situated LITERALLY between Maya and Sri Bhagavan.So much for the non-existence of Tatastha position.

 

Never heard anyone claim this before. I think you are mistaken. If not then tell us who?

[Sarva gattah]

Yasomatinandana: Is the original body of the spirit soul a human form?

Madhudvisa: The question is that whether the eternal form of the spirit soul is a human form or is it…

Prabhupada: Yes, human form. God is also human form. “Man is made after the shape of God.” I think there is in the Bible. Is it not? So God is also like human form. Here you see Krsna, two hands, two legs.

Hari-sauri: How do we understand, then, that there are peacocks and flowers and trees in the spiritual world? Are these not eternal forms?

Prabhupada [decribing material form first]: Yes. They are more covered. Just like if you cover your body with blanket, the hands and legs are invisible. But you are not the blanket. So the trees and plants, they are more covered. They are not in full manifestation. The human form is the full manifestation of the soul.

Hari-sauri: They are covered in the spiritual world?

Madhudvisa: He is asking if they were actually covered in the spiritual world as well.

Prabhupada: Not in the spiritual world. There that is voluntary. Some devotee wants to serve Krsna as flower; they become flower there. If I want that “As a flower I shall lie down at the lotus feet of Krsna,” he becomes flower, voluntarily.

And he can change his…, from flower to human body. That is spiritual life. There is no restriction. If some devotee wants to serve Krsna as cow, he serves Krsna as cow, as calf, as flower, as plant, as water, as ground, field, or as father, as mother, as friend, as beloved, anything.

Ye yatha mam prapadyante tams tathaiva bhajamy aham [bg. 4.11]. That is Krsna’s all-powerfulness, spiritual life.”

[end quote]

The fact is that spiritual form is inconceivable to our present senses. In the material world we try to measure things. But to measure anything, there has to be a reference point and our own bodies are the reference we use to understand the rest of the world around us.

Thus our sense of existence is limited to the actions and existence of our own bodies.

You have given some examples of drinking or jumping in water or sitting on a chair. Once an action is completed, it is gone, it is in the past. As for the future, it is not manifest to us.

We do not know what will come next. We thus have a sense of separation from the action and the object, both in the past and the future.

But in the spiritual world Krsna is the object, and all action is for pleasing Him. There is never any separation from Krsna.

Krsna continuously dominates the consciousness of every living being and action is the eternal flow of service to Krsna. It never stops yet it takes on unlimited variety of performance.

It is inconceivable, yet a fact.

Srimad-Bhagavatam 6.1.1-4 — Melbourne, May 20, 1975

[Beggar]

 

 

This means Jeeva is situated LITERALLY between Maya and Sri Bhagavan.So much for the non-existence of Tatastha position.

 

 

The jiva may be situated literally between Maya and Sri Bhagavan but the use of the word tatastha is in itself figurative. Tatastha literally means that place that is located exactly between the sand on the shore and the sea water. The exact position would be infinitesimally small and therefore unmeasurable with our brains or any scientific instrument including an electron microscope. This is acintya or inconceivable and therefore full of paradoxes to the rational mind. Also right in Jaiva Dharma Srila Bhaktivinoda discusses this concept.

 

 

Thus there is NO SUCH THING as a 'subconscious projection' and a 'dream-like state'.It is all just what you people have invented.I'm sorry but you need to really be alert and not do something like this...

To write that, "there is NO SUCH THING as ... a 'dream-like state'" is to succumb to fanaticism from the extreme opposite viewpoint. The very act of forgetting Krsna and entering into the relm of Mahamaya is to essentially dream that one is a material body full of temporary designations. The over-lay of these designations that I am a deer or a human and a human who is Indian, American etc is often compared by the acaryas to a person dreaming that he is being eaten by a tiger. When he awakens he will see his body is intact and that there is no tiger.

jiv jago, jiv jago, gauracanda bole

kota nidra jao maya-pisacira kole

Lord Gauranga is calling, "Wake up, sleeping souls! Wake up, sleeping souls! How long will you sleep in the lap of the witch called Maya?

At the same time it is not siddhantically correct to say that the jivas are 'subconsciously projecting' from a position of full rasik development in the Goloka portion of Vaikuntha for this implies that the eternal parishads of Sri Krsna are in fact fallen souls such as us.

[Beggar]

whoops

 

 

[theist]

The jiva IS tatashta. We are the marginal energy of the Lord. To think of tatashta being so tiny as to not be measurable gives the wrong idea. The jiva's constitution is not measurable.

[Beggar]

 

The jiva IS tatashta. We are the marginal energy of the Lord. To think of tatashta being so tiny as to not be measurable gives the wrong idea. The jiva's constitution is not measurable.

tatastha is a word.

 

 

Vrajanatha: What is the Vedantic meaning of the word tatastha?

 

Babaji: The space between the ocean and the land is called the shore (tata), but the place that touches the ocean is actually nothing but land, so where is the shore? The marginal tata is the line of distinction separating the ocean and the land, and it is so fine that it cannot be seen with the gross eyes. If we compare the transcendental realm to the ocean, and the material world to the land, then tata is the subtle line that divides the two, and the jiva-sakti is situated at the place where the two meet. The jivas are like the countless atomic particles of light in the rays of the sun. Being

situated in the middle place, the jivas see the spiritual world on one side

and the material universe created by maya on the other. Bhagavan's

spiritual potency on one side is unlimited, and maya's potency on the other

side is also very powerful; and the innumerable subtle (suksma) jivas are

situated between these two. The jivas are marginal by nature, because they

have manifested from Krsna's marginal potency.

[Sarva gattah]

 

The jiva IS tatashta. We are the marginal energy of the Lord. To think of tatashta being so tiny as to not be measurable gives the wrong idea. The jiva's constitution is not measurable.

 

The jiva is the tatastha sakti of the Lord, also called the jiva sakti or marginal potency, the jiva doesn’t go there, it is not a place you can go to, it is what he is.

Sri Caitanya Caritamrta Madhya 20.108-109

jivera ’svarupa’ haya — krsnera ‘nitya-dasa’

krsnera ‘tatastha-sakti’ ‘bhedabheda-prakasa’

suryamsa-kirana, yaiche agni-jvala-caya

svabhavika krsnera tina-prakara ’sakti’ haya

SYNONYMS

jivera — of the living entity; svarupa — the constitutional position; haya — is; krsnera — of Lord Krsna; nitya-dasa — eternal servant; krsnera — of Lord Krsna; tatastha — marginal; sakti — potency; bheda-abheda — one and different; prakasa — manifestation; surya-amsa — part and parcel of the sun; kirana — a ray of sunshine; yaiche — as; agni-jvala-caya — molecular particle of fire; svabhavika — naturally; krsnera — of Lord Krsna; tina-prakara — three varieties; sakti — energies; haya — there are.

TRANSLATION

It is the living entity’s constitutional position to be an eternal servant of Krsna because he is the marginal energy of Krsna and a manifestation simultaneously one with and different from the Lord, like a molecular particle of sunshine or fire. Krsna has three varieties of energy.

PURPORT

Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura explains these verses as follows: Sri Sanatana Gosvami asked Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, “Who am I?” In answer, the Lord replied, “You are a pure living entity. You are neither the gross material body nor the subtle body composed of mind and intelligence.

Actually you are a spirit soul, eternally part and parcel of the Supreme Soul, Krsna. Therefore you are His eternal servant. You belong to Krsna’s marginal potency. There are two worlds — the spiritual world and the material world — and you are situated between the material and spiritual potencies. You have a relationship with both the material and the spiritual world; therefore you are called the marginal potency.

You are related with Krsna as one and simultaneously different. Because you are spirit soul, you are one in quality with the Supreme Personality of Godhead, but because you are a very minute particle of spirit soul, you are different from the Supreme Soul.

Therefore your position is simultaneously one with and different from the Supreme Soul. The examples given are those of the sun itself and the small particles of sunshine and of a blazing fire and the small particles of fire.” Another explanation of these verses can be found in Adi-lila, Chapter Two, verse 96.

In his Paramatma Sandarbha Jiva Goswami writes:

evam ekasya purusasya nanatvam upapadya tasya punar amsa vivriyante. atra dvi-vidha amsah svamsa vibhinnamsac ca. vibhinnamsas tatastha-cakty-atmaka jiva iti vaksyate. svamsas tu guna-lila dy-avatara-bhedena vividhah. tatra lila dy-avatarah prasagga-saggatya sri-krsna-sandarbhe vaksyante.

evam thus; ekasya - of one; purusasya - purusa-avatar; nanatvam - variety; upapadya - is explained; tasya - of Him; punar - again; amsa - parts; vivriyante are explained; atra - here; dvi-vidha - two kinds; amsah - parts; svamsa - own parts; vibhinnamsac - separated parts; ca. - also; vibhinnamsas separated parts; tatastha-cakty- atmaka - marginal potency; jiva - individual souls; iti - thus; vaksyate. - will be explained; svamsas own parts; tu - but; guna- lila dy-avatara-bhedena - with differences oif guna and lila avataras; vividhah. - various; tatra - there; lila dy- avatarah beginning with lila avataras; prasagga-saggatya - by contact; sri-krsna-sandarbhe - in Sri Krsna-sandarbha; vaksyante. - will be explained; gunavatara guna avataras; yatha as.

In this way it has been explained that although the purusa- avatara is a single person, He nevertheless expands in many different forms. The Supreme Personality of Godhead has two kinds of expansions: 1. svamsa (personal expansions), and 2. vibhinnamsa (separated expansions). The Lord’s separated expansions are the individual spirit souls, who are all the Lord’s marginal potency (tatastha-sakti).

The Lord’s personal expansions are His many incarnations, such as His guna-avatars and lila-avataras. The Lord’s lila-avataras and other incarnations will be described later in the Sri Krsna-sandarbha.

tad evam ananta eva jivakhyas tatasthah caktayah. tatra tasam varga-dvayam. eko vargo ‘nadita eva bhagavad-unmukhah. anyas tv anadita eva bhagavat-paragmukhah. svabhavatas tadiya- jnana-bhavat tadiya-jnanabhavac ca.

tat - that; evam - thus; ananta - limitless; eva - inded; jivakhyah - called individual souls; tatasthah - marginal; caktayah. - potencies; tatra - there; tasam - of them; varga-dvayam. - two groups; ekah - one; vargah - group; anadita - from time immemorial; eva - indeed; bhagavad-unmukhah. - favorable to the Supreme Personality of Godhead; anyah - others; tv - but; anadita - from time imemmorial; eva - indeed; bhagavat-paragmukhah. - averse to the Supreme Personality of Godhead; svabhavatah - by nature; tadiya - of Him; jana - knowledge; bhavat - because of the nature; tadiya - of Him; jnana - the knowledge; abhavat - because of the absence; ca - also.

Thus the Lord’s marginal [tatasthah] potencies, who are called the individual spirit souls are limitless in number. Still, they may be divided into two groups: 1. the souls who, from time immemorial, are favorable to the Supreme Lord, and 2. the rebellious souls who, from time immemorial, are averse to the Supreme Lord. This is because one group is aware of the Lord’s glories and the other group is not aware of them.

tatra prathamo ‘ntaragga-sakti-vilasanugrhito nitya- bhagavat-parikara-rupo garudadikah. yathoktam padmottara-khande tri-pad-vibhuter lokas tu ity adau bhagavat-sandarbhodahrte. asya ca tatasthatvam jivatva-prasiddher isvaratva-kotav apravecat.

tatra - there; prathamah - first; antaragga-sakti - internal potency; vilasa - pastimes; anugrhitah - attained the mercy; nitya - eternal; bhagavat - of the Supreme Personality of Godhead; parikara-rupah - the form of associates; garudadikah. - beginning with Garuda; yatha - as; uktam - said; padmottara-khande - in thje Padma Purana, Uttara-khanda; tri-pad-vibhuteh - of three fourths of the Lord’s potencies; lokah - the world; tu - indeed; iti - thus; adau - beginning; bhagavat-sandarbhodahrte - dessribed in the Bhagavat-sandarbha; asya - of this; ca - also; tatasthatvam - the state of ebing the marginal potency; jivatva-prasiddheh - of the proof of being the individual spirit souls; isvaratva - of the status of the Supreme Personality of Godhead; kotau - on the edge; apravecat - because of not entering.

The first group consists of Garuda and the other eternal associates of the Lord, These devotees take shelter of the Lord’s internal potency and enjoy pastimes with Him. They reside in the spiritual world, which will be described in the Bhagavat- sandarbha (anuccheda 78) where the following words of Padma Purana, Uttara-khanda are quoted:

“Countless blissful spiritual planets are in the spiritual sky, which is three fourths of the entire creation.”

Thus, although the nature of the individual souls is on the borderline of the nature of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, the individual souls do not enter that nature. Thus they remain different from the Lord.

tad evam paramatmanas tatasthakhya saktir vivrta. antaraggakhya tu purvavad eva jYeya. atha bahiraggakhya vivriyate

tat - that; evam - thus; paramatmanah - of the Supreme Personality of Godhead; tatasthakhya - called the marginal potency; saktih - potency; vivrta. - revealed; antaraggakhya - called the internal potency; tu - indeed; purvavat - as before; eva - indeed; jYeya - should be known; atha - now; bahiraggakhya - called the external potency; vivriyate - is revealed.

In this way we have described the Lord’s marginal potency. we have already described the Lord’s internal potency.

This is from Srila Prabhupada’s “Teachings of Lord Caitanya”

The supreme knowledge of Krsna is exhibited in three different energies - internal, marginal and external.

By virtue of His internal energy, He exists in Himself with His spiritual paraphernalia; by means of His marginal energy (tatastha sakti), He exhibits Himself as the living entities, and by means of His external energy He exhibits Himself as material energy. Behind each and every energetic exhibition there is the background of eternity, pleasure, potency and full cognizance.

This is from “Sri Caitanya’s Teachings” by Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura

Vishnu has three energies, one of them is meant for manifestation of His eternal Abode, another potency is for creating all human souls who are emanation from His Tatastha-sakti found between the temporal and eternal worlds. By this potency He creates human souls. The human souls has two different predilections. If he desires to serve God-head he is allowed into the eternal Region. If he desires to lord it over this world he comes down for enjoying in different capacities the products of the Deluding potency.

This position, which is like a geometrical line, is designated tatastha-sakti, the fountain-head of all human souls. Tatastha-sakti is located between the two potencies of Vishnu one of which maintains this transforming world and the other is the source of the manifestation of the eternal world that does not change like this world. These potencies belong to the Personality of God-head Vishnu

Tathastha does not refer to a place, it does not possess a locatice meaning in the sense of being in a particular spot. Tatastha has an ontological meaning. The jiva is a sakti of the Lord, it exists as neither Cit Sakti nor as Maya Sakti, we exist in between these two categories of saktis, therefore we are called Tatastha. The place where water, as in a river an ocean or lake, where it meets the land, that is called tata.

The Cit Sakti is represented by the water and the Maya Sakti us represented by the land. Since we are neither the Maya Sakti nor the Cit Sakti, neither the water or the land, we are called tatastha, or the inbetween the water and the land. The tide can cause us to be submerged in water or the tide can retreat and we can become left on the land. The jiva can be influenced and come under the dominion of the Cit Sakti or of the Maya Sakti. Either was the constitutional position of the jiva is tatastha sakti, the marginal potency, on the margin or border between 2 other potencies.

Sri Caitanya Caritamrta Madhya 20.108-109

jivera ’svarupa’ haya — krsnera ‘nitya-dasa’

krsnera ‘tatastha-sakti’ ‘bhedabheda-prakasa’

suryamsa-kirana, yaiche agni-jvala-caya

svabhavika krsnera tina-prakara ’sakti’ haya

SYNONYMS

jivera — of the living entity; svarupa — the constitutional position; haya — is; krsnera — of Lord Krsna; nitya-dasa — eternal servant; krsnera — of Lord Krsna; tatastha — marginal; sakti — potency; bheda-abheda — one and different; prakasa — manifestation; surya-amsa — part and parcel of the sun; kirana — a ray of sunshine; yaiche — as; agni-jvala-caya — molecular particle of fire; svabhavika — naturally; krsnera — of Lord Krsna; tina-prakara — three varieties; sakti — energies; haya — there are.

TRANSLATION

It is the living entity’s constitutional position to be an eternal servant of Krsna because he is the marginal energy of Krsna and a manifestation simultaneously one with and different from the Lord, like a molecular particle of sunshine or fire. Krsna has three varieties of energy.

 

The marginal individual living entity is called tatastha sakti because one can be influenced by their own ability to choose and come under the dominion of the Cit Sakti, or of the Maya Sakti. Tatastha is also another name for marginal describing the status of the living entity that refers to FREEWILL

 

However, regardless of this fact, the living entities full potential expression is perpetually found within the eternal presents of Goloka as their endless body serving Krishna.

 

We, the living entities, express ourselves there in our full potential in Krishna's service eternally.

 

It is there in Goloka or Vaikuntha, the individual living entity is who they really are in their full potential within the perpetual ‘present’, as ‘their’ endless nitya siddha identity, personality, individuality serving in Krishna's Lila's.

 

The living entity is the marginal potency of the Lord known as the jiva-tattva who is 'eternally established' in their full potential as nitya siddha in an eternal loving relationship with Krishna in Goloka, or in a perpetual loving servitor relationship with His Vishnu-tattva expansions in the Vaikunthas.

 

However, being the individual living entities, or marginal potencies of the Lord, also means they all have a choice, and can also enter the material creation or mahat-tattva if they choose, as their nitya-baddha secondary conscious condition.

 

It is there in the material creation, the living entities are covered by the mahat-tattva's material energy however, the living entities are not a product of matter, they only are covered by matter in the form of ethereal and biological bodily containers provided by Maha-Vishnu

 

The living entities can therefore use their free will to choose and remain under the dominion of the Cit Sakti, as the endless servant of Krishna they are eternally, always being aware of their nitya siddha eternal identity, or the living entities can come under the influence of the Maya Sakti as their temporary non Krishna conscious nitya baddha dreaming condition.

 

The living entity in this nitya-baddha condition can only be covered by Maya's s'akti or material vessels within the mahat-tattva.

 

All material bodies are provided by the wife of Maha-Vishnu in order for the living entity to seek out their mistaken desires that are part of Maya's s'akti's or her control over the material energy.

 

No individual living entity can originate from the lifeless mahat-tattva.

 

The living entities can only visit the material creation and be covered by material bodies, provided and facilitated by Maha-Vishnu.

 

The living entities eternal nitya-siddha bodily personality, has different names in different pastimes due to the fact that they never fall down.

 

In fact most the living entities NEVER allow their awareness of being nitya-siddha to be covered by the non Krishna conscious 'dream state' or the living entities nitya-baddha consciousness.

 

The nitya-siddhas never leave Goloka or Vaikuntha, some living entities however, 'imagine', 'think' or 'dream' they, do while most never enter the nitya baddha world of imagination and therefore never experience the shackles of Maya.

 

There are only two types of living entities, Visnu tattva and Jiva Tattva.

 

Srila Prabhupada - "The supreme knowledge of Krsna is exhibited in three different energies - internal, marginal and external. By virtue of His internal energy, He exists in Himself with His spiritual paraphernalia; by means of His marginal energy (tatastha sakti), He exhibits Himself as the living entities, and by means of His external energy He exhibits Himself as material energy. Behind each and every energetic exhibition there is the background of eternity, pleasure, potency and full cognizance". Teachings of Lord Caitanya

 

Srila Prabhupada - "It is the living entity’s constitutional position to be an eternal servant of Krsna because he is the marginal energy of Krsna and a manifestation simultaneously one with and different from the Lord, like a molecular particle of sunshine or fire. Krsna has three varieties of energy" Sri Caitanya Caritamrta Madhya 20.108-109

[Beggar]

Gaudiya Vaisnavism is not dogmatic in the way of Western Religions which are fully dualistic without any modification. The idea of simultaneous oneness and difference beautifully harmonizes polarities in angles of vision especially on this topic. Where does all this rancor (: bitter deep-seated ill will) come from over the concepts of the origin of the soul?

[Sonic Yogi]

As far as the topic of this thread is concerned, yes there is time in the spiritual world according to Srila Prabhupada.

It is spiritual time, not material time.

Material time is a perverted reflection of time in the spiritual world.

 

Srimad Bhagavatam 3.11.38 purport.

 

"Eternal time is never lost along with the life of Brahma. It continues, but it has no ability to control the Supreme Personality of Godhead because the Lord is the controller of time. In the spiritual world there is undoubtedly time, but it has no control over activities. Time is unlimited, and the spiritual world is also unlimited, since everything there exists on the absolute plane".

[Sarva gattah]

 

As far as the topic of this thread is concerned, yes there is time in the spiritual world according to Srila Prabhupada.

It is spiritual time, not material time.

Material time is a perverted reflection of time in the spiritual world.

 

.

 

"Eternal time is never lost along with the life of Brahma. It continues, but it has no ability to control the Supreme Personality of Godhead because the Lord is the controller of time. In the spiritual world there is undoubtedly time, but it has no control over activities. Time is unlimited, and the spiritual world is also unlimited, since everything there exists on the absolute plane".

 

Yes, good research, Krsna lila time has no effect of decay and impermanance so there is no birth, disease, old age or death. Material time however, is controlled by those things that give the illusion of past, present and future in the way we conditioned souls experience it.

 

Actually while we are conditioned in the material world, it is inconcievable for us to understand how Krsna performs his beautiful pastimes free from what we experience as past and future.

 

Srila Prabhupada - "In the spiritual world there is undoubtedly time, but it has no control over activities. Time is unlimited, and the spiritual world is also unlimited, since everything there exists on the absolute" Srimad Bhagavatam 3.11.38 purport

[Sonic Yogi]

Even Lord Brahma and other great sages and demigods are unaffected by time.

 

 

 

Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 3.15.3

 

devā ūcuḥ

 

tama etad vibho vettha

 

saḿvignā yad vayaḿ bhṛśam

 

na hy avyaktaḿ bhagavataḥ

 

kālenāspṛṣṭa-vartmanaḥ

 

 

SYNONYMS

 

devāḥ ūcuḥ — the demigods said; tamaḥ — darkness; etat — this; vibho — O great one; vettha — you know; saḿvignāḥ — very anxious; yat — because; vayam — we; bhṛśam — very much; na — not; hi — because; avyaktam — unmanifest; bhagavataḥ — of You (the Supreme Personality of Godhead); kālena — by time; aspṛṣṭa — untouched; vartmanaḥ — whose way.

 

 

TRANSLATION

 

The fortunate demigods said: O great one, just see this darkness, which you know very well and which is causing us anxieties. Because the influence of time cannot touch you, there is nothing unmanifest before you.

 

 

PURPORT

 

Brahmā is addressed herein as Vibhu and as the Personality of Godhead. He is the Supreme Personality of Godhead's incarnation of the mode of passion in the material world. He is nondifferent, in the representative sense, from the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and therefore the influence of time cannot affect him. The influence of time, which manifests as past, present and future, cannot touch higher personalities like Brahmā and other demigods. Sometimes demigods and great sages who have attained such perfection are called tri-kāla jña.

[theist]

Yes we can say there is time in the spiritual world. "What time is it" is not a question that ever arises in the minds of the inhabitants because it is always Now the present.

 

It is no good to try to project our ideas on what it may be like while we are conditioned by the time element that rules this creation.

[Beggar]

Sri Brahma Samhita

Chapter V - The HYMNS of LORD BRAHMA

Text 2

TEXT

sahasra-patra-kamalam

gokulakhyam mahat padam

tat-karnikaram tad-dhama

tad-anantamsa-sambhavam

SYNONYMS

sahasra-patra--possessing a thousand petals; kamalam--a lotus; gokula-akhyam--known as Gokula; mahat padam--the superexcellent station; tat--of that (lotus); karnikaram--the whorl; tat--of Him (Krsna); dhama--the abode; tat--that (Gokula); ananta--of His infinitary aspect, Balarama; amsa--from a part; sambhavam--produced.

TRANSLATION by Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur

 

[The spiritual place of transcendental pastimes of Krsna is portrayed in the second verse.] The superexcellent station of Krsna, which is known as Gokula, has thousands of petals and a corolla like that of a lotus sprouted from a part of His infinitary aspect, the whorl of the leaves being the actual abode of Krsna.

PURPORT by Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur

Gokula, like Goloka, is not a created mundane plane--unbounded character forms the display of His unlimited potency and His propagating manifestation. Baladeva is the mainstay of that energy. The transcendental entity of Baladeva has two aspects viz., infinite spiritual manifestation and infinite accommodating space for insentient gross things. The uniquadrantal delineation of material universe will be dealt with in the proper place. The triquadrantal extensions of the transcendental infinitary field of the almighty, unlamenting, nonperishing and nonapprehending unlimited situations of halo which are fully spiritual majestic foliation. This very majestical extension portrays the manifested lofty rich feature of the vaster unlimited region or greater atmosphere which has its resplendent location wholly beyond the realm of mundane nature, on the further shore of Viraja surrounded by the halo of Brahman or indistinguishable entity. This majestical power of unlimited spirit emanates on the upper portion of the luminous sphere into the most charming Gokula or eternally existing Goloka, exceedingly beautified by the assorted display of effulgence. Some designate this region as the abode of the Supreme Narayana, or the original fountainhead. Hence Gokula, which is identical with Goloka, is the supreme plane. The same sphere shines as Goloka and Gokula respectively by its upper or transcendental and lower or mundane situation.

Sri Sanatana Gosvami has told us as follows in his Brhad-bhagavatamrta which embodies the final essence of all the books of instructions: "He displays His pastimes here in this land as He is used to do in Goloka. The difference between the two planes lies only in their locations as high and low; that is, in other words, Krsna plays exactly the same part in Goloka as He exhibits on the mundane plane of Gokula. There is practically no difference between Gokula and Goloka save that this what exists in the shape of Goloka in the upper region is the same as Gokula on the mundane plane when Krsna showed His various activity there. Sri Jiva Gosvami has also inculcated the same in the Bhagavat-sandarbha of his 'Six Treatises.' " To ascertain the plane of Goloka--Vrndavana is the eternal abode of Krsna and Goloka and Vrndavana are identically one, and though both are identical, yet Krsna's inconceivable energy has made Goloka the acme of this spiritual kingdom and Gokula of Mathura province forming a part of the mundane plane which is also a manifestation of triquadrantal vibhuti (conducting majesty). Poor human understanding cannot possibly make out how the extensive triquadrantal, which is beyond human comprehension, can be accommodated in the limited nether material universe of a uniquadrantal disclosure. Gokula is a spiritual plane, hence his condescended position in the region of material space, time, etc., is in no way restricted but unlimitedly manifested with his full boundless propriety. But conditioned souls are apt to assert a material conception in regard to Gokula by their miserable senses so as to bring him below the level of their intellect. Though the eye of an observer is impeded by a cloud when gazing at the sun and though the tiny cloud can never really cover the sun, still the clouded vision apparently observes the sun as covered by the cloud. In just the same way the conditioned souls with their obscured intelligence, senses and decisions, accept Gokula as a piece of measurable land. We can see Gokula from Goloka which is eternal. This is also a mystery. The attainment of final beatitude is the success in attaining one's eternal self. The success in identifying the true self is finally achieved when the screen of gross and subtle coils of conditioned souls is removed by the sweet will of Krsna. However, the idea of Goloka is seen to differ from Gokula till the success in unalloyed devotion is achieved. The transcendental plane of infinite spiritual manifestation having thousands of petals and corolla like those of the lotus, is Gokula, the eternal abode of Krsna.

[Sonic Yogi]

Time as we know it does not exist in the spiritual world. Time includes past, present and future.

There is not even "present" time in the absolute world.

How can there not be a "present" time?

Obviously, it is hard to get our minds around a plane of existence where there is not even a "present" time.

 

It's obviously not an easy concept to grasp and there is not a lot of information in the shastra that deals with the conception of spiritual time.

 

Here is a purport by Srila Prabhupada that explains it as best it can be explained.

 

SB 2.9.10 purport>

 

 

Since there is no deterioration, there is no past, present and future in the estimation of time. It is clearly stated in this verse that the influence of time is conspicuous by its absence. The whole material existence is manifested by actions and reactions of elements which make the influence of time prominent in the matter of past, present and future. There are no such actions and reactions of cause and effects there, so the cycle of birth, growth, existence, transformations, deterioration and annihilation — the six material changes — are not existent there.

[Beggar]

The Hidden Treasure of the Bhagavad-gita, The Sweet Absolute

 

Catur-sloki Commentary by Srila Bhakti Raksaka Sridhara Maharaja

from:

Bhagavad-gita 10.11 Commentary

 

 

In the planets known as Vaikuntha, the nature of worship of Lord Visnu is gorgeous, majestic, reverential, and awe-inspiring. But above that, the highest conception of Godhead is just like a human form and nature. It is stated in Sri Caitanya-caritamrta in the teachings to Sanatana Goswami:

 

krsnera yateka khela sarvottama nara-lila

nara-vapu tahara svarupa

gopa-vesa venukara nava-kisora natavara

nara-lila haya anurupa

krsnera madhura-rupa suna sanatana

ye rupera eka kana dubaya saba tribhuvana

sarva-prani kare akarsana

 

 

"The most supreme form of Godhead is Krsna, who plays in His eternal divine pastimes just like a human being. An ever youthful cowherd boy of Vrndavana, He enacts His pastimes, always playing His flute. His beauty is so charming and sweet, that the whole universe is flooded by an atom of it, and all beings are drawn irresistibly to Him."

"He is approachable by all. We can find God nearest of all - in a human feature. It has been explained how Krsna's nature of human feature is the highest nature of the Absolute, according to the calculation of ecstasy (rasa), which is the common standard of measurement of the whole scope of the Infinite. By the development of santa-, dasya-, sakhya-, vatsalya-, and madhura-rasa, and then parakiya (peacefulness, servitude, friendship, parenthood, and consorthood, and then paramour relationship), this is scientifically proved, without whimsical or blind faith. If we follow the line of Rupanuga-bhajana (devotion following the standard of Srila Rupa Goswami) which originates from Sri Caitanyadeva, the scientific basis can be appreciated. The previous acaryas have left for us, step by step, how we can follow, conceive, and attain all things.

[Beggar]

If in His highest lila, Krsna plays just like a human being then it would follow that spiritual time in that relm of Goloka or Gokula would appear just like time on Earth. The difference would be that such "time" would be under the control of the internal Yoga Maya potency of the Lord and could be altered for the enactment of His lila by His divine will.

[theist]

 

If in His highest lila, Krsna plays just like a human being then it would follow that spiritual time in that relm of Goloka or Gokula would appear just like time on Earth. The difference would be that such "time" would be under the control of the internal Yoga Maya potency of the Lord and could be altered for the enactment of His lila by His divine will.

 

 

An interesting philosophical speculation.

 

 

So what about Vaikuntha?

[Beggar]

 

 

So what about Vaikuntha?

Some philosopher-scientists say that if a rock falls in a mountain desert and no one is there to witness the event then on some level it never happened (they don't know about Paramatma). Next they say that if a human being witnesses this event then by such witnessing they actually transform the event, such is the power of consciousness. Now this is just speculation on their part but it does at least raise interesting questions. In a way is this like the idea that God, Bhagavan is never alone? After all He enjoys through pastimes but their must be devotees there to participate and witsness them otherwise what satisfaction would there be in it for the Lord? So this is the first duality, that there is the Lord and that He has expanded Himself into His associates who are one in quality with Him but different in quanitity. Now in all Vaikunthas the Lord has body of sac-cit-ananda which is non-different from his very Self. Although from one viewpoint He is everything, the bhaktas there do not experience Him like that but rather in a personal way. So His body in Vaikuntha has a place whrere it begins at His feet and ends at His head. The Vaikuntha ground which is below his feet may be divine but it is not personally Narayana. So this is the next duality.

Then pastimes or interactions between the Lord and His devotees and amongst devotees take place on the plane of lila. When the Lord speaks in His sweet voice, there is the beginning of a sentence and then the end of the sentence. So there is a beginning and end to the sentence and in fact all lilas, although they will repeat in a cyclical manner. Nitya or eternal in this sense means to unfold in a cycle which never ends. Since that cycle is infinite in dimensons then it is more like a globe, a spiritual globe which is called a Vaikuntha planet which exists in the Spiritual Sky. So even in Vaikuntha there is something that appears like time in this world but is really quite different. The mundane time within this world is like a perverted reflection of that time. But since Vaikuntha time exists within the Spiritual Sky which is really the Brahmajyoti or spiritual effulgence, then Vakuntha with all its aspects including Spiritual time exists within the eternal present.

The only eternal present that a soul would experience is within the brahmajyoti. But this position is still ultimately not satisfying to the jiva soul. In the Vaikuntha planets that substance, brahman takes on form and qualities and on that basis the lilas of the personal aspect, Bhagavan and his servitor bhaktas unfold.

[primate]

According to Einstein, time is like space. So what we perceive as ‘time’ may be only our brain’s interpretation of a 4th spatial dimension of reality. Imagine that everything that existed in the past and everything that will exist in the future, is in fact simultaneously present in a 4 dimensional space without time. Such a 4 dimensional spatial reality may be so vast that we can only consciously perceive tiny parts of it at once when we 'travel' through it. Hence, the construct/perception of time..

[Sarva gattah]

 

 

How it is possible to understand, that in the spiritual world there is no past and future?

 

 

 

When the life force is withdrawn, the forms simply dissolve. The souls remain, the material elements remain. Since these forms do not remain permanently, they are simply an illusion.

Thus there is no past, nor is there a future. There is only the continuous presence of the souls, and the material elements.

 

 

 

Question - "How it is possible to understand, that in the spiritual world there is no past and future? For example, if I have drunk a glass of water, it means, that process of drinking has remained in the past!

This process cannot be all time in present time?!… Even if this process will occur in the spiritual world, if I have jumped in water or I sit down on a chair, this action has already come to pass, that is remains in the past. How these actions can be all time in present time? Please, explain to me it is in the detailed image!”

Answer - "Understanding time is very difficult. This is a big topic and we cannot answer all the aspects in a short blog entry.

However, here are a few observations that may help you to get a better understanding.

Time is the force by which everything in the material world changes. It is the ultimate master of all living beings. It moves everything, and when there is no influence of time, there is no movement, nor variety:

SB 3.26.10

The Supreme Personality of Godhead said: The unmanifested eternal combination of the three modes is the cause of the manifest state and is called pradhana. It is called prakrti when in the manifested stage of existence.

PURPORT by Srila Prabhupada

The Lord points out material nature in its subtle stage, which is called pradhana, and He analyzes this pradhana.

The explanation of pradhana and prakrti is that pradhana is the subtle, undifferentiated sum total of all material elements. Although they are undifferentiated, one can understand that the total material elements are contained therein.

When the total material elements are manifested by the interaction of the three modes of material nature, the manifestation is called prakrti. …

The actual explanation of pradhana, however, is given here: when the cause and effect are not clearly manifested (avyakta), the reaction of the total elements does not take place, and that stage of material nature is called pradhana.

Pradhana is not the time element because in the time element there are actions and reactions, creation and annihilation. Nor is it the jiva, or marginal potency of living entities, or designated, conditioned living entities, because the designations of the living entities are not eternal.

One adjective used in this connection is nitya, which indicates eternality. Therefore the condition of material nature immediately previous to its manifestation is called pradhana.”

“In the Third Canto of Srimad-Bhagavatam Lord Kapiladeva teaches that the material nature originally exists in an inert state of equilibrium called pradhana.

When Lord Visnu casts His potent glance in the form of kala, or time, material interactions take place, culminating in the variegated creation of the material cosmos.

“In this verse it is stated that at the end of universal time the same kala that originally incited the female nature into manifestation again withdraws the cosmos into its original state of inert nonmanifestation.

According to Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura, the time potency itself, kala, is then withdrawn, and it merges into the Supreme Soul, who manifests Himself as the original cause of material nature (anadir adir govindah sarva-karana-karanam [bs. 5.1]).”

[end quote]

What we understand as time is really a figment of our imagination in the sense of there being a past, present and future.

We tend to ‘measure’ time by observing the changes that it causes to our bodies and the surrounding environment. However, the soul is fixed and immutable and does not change, so for the soul there is no past or future, only the present, or rather his own presence.

Material elements also do not change.

Different states of energy cannot be either created or destroyed and in their fundamental states they remain the same.

Material elements are the energy of the Supreme Lord and are therefore eternal. The only thing that does change are the combinations of material elements into various forms.

These combinations are provided so that the individual living beings can fulfill their various desires.

It is the presence of a living force within these combinations of matter give them the appearance of life.

When the life force is withdrawn, the forms simply dissolve. The souls remain, the material elements remain. Since these forms do not remain permanently, they are simply an illusion.

Thus there is no past, nor is there a future. There is only the continuous presence of the souls, and the material elements.

Time in the material world is the force that moves the individual soul from one situation to another in search of fulfillment of his desires.

Time is the supreme regulator. Time is Krsna. What we call time is simply the influence of Krsna without realization of His person. Srila Prabhupada describes time as the impersonal energy of the Supreme Lord.

In the spiritual world, Krsna is continuously present to His parts and parcel living entities.

He dominates everything, He is everything. Time, or the sense of being, is therefore simply the sense of Krsna’s personal presence and one’s relationship with Him, and nothing more.

Since Krsna is eternal and the soul is eternal, there is no past nor any future but simply the loving exchanges between Krsna and His devotees which are endless in their variety.

The forms in the spiritual world are all spiritual. They are eternal, and yet they can change. How they can change was described by Srila Prabhupada in a talk given in Melbourne on May 20, 1975:

 

BY HARI SAURI DASA

[theist]

According to Einstein, time is like space. So what we perceive as ‘time’ may be only our brain’s interpretation of a 4th spatial dimension of reality. Imagine that everything that existed in the past and everything that will exist in the future, is in fact simultaneously present in a 4 dimensional space without time. Such a 4 dimensional spatial reality may be so vast that we can only consciously perceive tiny parts of it at once when we 'travel' through it. Hence, the construct/perception of time..

[Beggar]

 

According to Einstein, time is like space. So what we perceive as ‘time’ may be only our brain’s interpretation of a 4th spatial dimension of reality. Imagine that everything that existed in the past and everything that will exist in the future, is in fact simultaneously present in a 4 dimensional space without time. Such a 4 dimensional spatial reality may be so vast that we can only consciously perceive tiny parts of it at once when we 'travel' through it. Hence, the construct/perception of time..

 

Combine this idea with the concept of the Akashic Record, that all previous, present and future thoughts within consciousness therefore exist or "are simultaneously present in a 4 dimensional space without time" and can therefore be accessed by those who either have the power or are receptive like mystic yogis and now you really have something close to or even identical with brahman realization. Yet within brahman which Srila Sridhar Maharaja calls, "all accomadating" there exists both the levels of paramatma and bhagavan realization. On the level of bhagavan there is transcendental form and motion where, "every word is a song, every gait is a dance". But still although we have experience of material form, we at present have no experience of spiritual form.