Does time exist in the Spititual World?

[Narasingh]

Theist, please don't take offense. I am not juggling words. Please acknowledge the ambiguity and redundancy of this idea: a parent waking their child from a nightmare to tell them it is a nightmare.

As a parent, I know there is no need to do this. They will simply wake up, and upon waking, they will learn that it was a dream.

 

For some, this idea is enough to take up activities conducive to the pleasure of Sri Krsna, for others, it becomes a logical redundancy. There are many on this forum, as well as outside this forum, who will see these logical redundancies and ambiguities and may form a negative opinion of the whole process.

 

There are many initiates of Srila Prabhupada who heard and continue to hear and understand what he says differently than you and Sarvah. Sarvah posts, over and over again, transcriptions of Srila Prabhupada's personal discussions. They aren't inclusive of the whole discussion and when the discussion is taken into consideration along with the contexts there are clearly different ways to interpret them.

 

For a disciple to consider their spiritual master as part of the parampara they must harmonize their spiritual master's teachings with their parampara, not polarize the teachings. Srila Prabhupada wanted for his disciples to understand the philosophies and encouraged them to seek guidance from qualified philosophical representatives. He also respected his Guru to the umpteenth degree, so much so, that he was reduced to tears nearly every time he discussed the mercy which had been given to him by his spiritual master.

 

In this subject, I fear we will remain at odds and although I have no hope of changing your position, I would also like to serve others by being a proponent of the position that I have been posting.

[primate]

A lucid dream is a dream in which the person is aware that they are dreaming while the dream is in progress, also known as a conscious dream. When the dreamer is lucid, they can actively participate in and often manipulate the imaginary experiences in the dream environment. Lucid dreams can be extremely real and vivid depending on a person's level of self-awareness during the lucid dream.

 

A lucid dream can begin in one of two ways. A dream-initiated lucid dream (DILD) starts as a normal dream, and the dreamer eventually concludes that they are dreaming, while a wake-initiated lucid dream (WILD) occurs when the dreamer goes from a normal waking state directly into a dream state with no apparent lapse in consciousness. Lucid dreaming has been researched scientifically, and its existence is well established.

 

There is a strong tendency to forget what one has dreamt. The ability to recall dreams is often described as the first step towards lucid dreaming. Better dream recall increases awareness of dreams in general; so any lucid dreams one has are also less likely to be forgotten entirely.

 

There are key times at which this state is best entered; while success at normal bedtime after having been awake all day is very difficult, it is relatively easy after sleeping for 3–7 hours or in the afternoon during a nap. Techniques for inducing WILDs abound. Dreamers may count, envision themselves climbing or descending stairs, chant to themselves, control their breathing, count their breaths to keep their thoughts from drifting, concentrate on relaxing their body from their toes to their head, or allow images to flow through their "mind's eye" and envision themselves jumping into the image to maintain concentration and keep their mind awake, while still being calm enough to let their body sleep.

 

Reality testing (or reality checking) is a common method used by people to determine whether or not they are dreaming. It involves performing an action with results that will be different if the tester is dreaming. By practicing these tests during waking life, one may eventually decide to perform such a test while dreaming, which may fail and let the dreamer realize that they are dreaming.

 

Common reality tests include:

 

- The pinch reality check: Pinch any part of your body and if you feel no pain (or if it feels "different" or "obstructed" compared to waking life) then it is a dream.

- The nose reality check: Pinch your nose and if you are able to breathe without using your mouth, it is a dream.

- Looking at one's digital watch (remembering the time), looking away, and looking back. As with text, the time will probably have changed randomly and radically at the second glance or contain strange letters and characters. (Analog watches do not usually change in dreams, while digital watches and clocks have great tendency to do so.)

- Flipping a light switch. Light levels rarely change as a result of the switch flipping in dreams.

- Looking into a mirror; in dreams, reflections from a mirror often appear to be blurred, distorted, incorrect, or frightening.

- Looking at the ground beneath one's feet or at one's hands. If one does this within a dream the difference in appearance of the ground or one's hands from the normal waking state is often enough to alert the conscious to the dream state.

- Pick up a book and look inside. Often, the pages will be blank, or change after the second look.

- Look at your surroundings. If the placement of the buildings is different from what it ought to be, you are in a dream (for example, the Great Pyramids next to your house).

 

Given the frequent bizarreness, illogic and dislocation of dreams, some researchers have questioned why dreamers are not lucid all of the time. How can our dreaming selves accept as real so many settings, images and events that in waking life, we assume, would immediately jolt us into disbelief? The answer to this has been approached in three categories of investigation. Depth psychology suggests that the unconscious “dream-work” is repressing or inhibiting critical evaluation of the dream in order to perform its salutary function. “Belief” in the dream symbols and experience is required for healing, personality integration or catharsis to take place. Lucidity can only arise if a person is relatively free of un-reconciled conflicts which form barriers.

 

Physiology suggests that “seeing is believing” to the brain during any mental state. Even waking consciousness is liable to accept discontinuous or illogical experience as real if presented as such to the brain. Dream consciousness is similar to that of a hallucinating awake subject. Dream or hallucinatory images triggered by the brain stem are considered to be real, even if fantastic. The impulse to accept the evident is so strong the dreamer will often invent a memory or story to cover up an incongruous or unrealistic event in the dream. “That man has two heads!” is usually followed not with “I must be dreaming!” but with “Yes, I read in the paper about these famous Siamese twins.”

 

Developmental psychology suggests that the dream world is not bizarre at all when viewed developmentally, since we were dreaming as children before we learned all of the physical and social laws that train the mind to a “reality.” Fluid imaginative constructions may have preceded the more rigid, logical waking rules and continue on as a normative lifeworld alongside the acquired, waking life world. Dreaming and waking consciousness differ only in their respective level of expectations, the waking “I” expecting a stricter set of “reality rules” as the child matures. The experience of “waking up” normally establishes the boundary between the two lifeworlds and cues the consciousness to adapt to waking “I” expectations. At times, however, this cue is false—a false awakening. Here the waking “I” (with its level of expectations) is activated even though the experience is still hallucinatory. Incongruous images or illogical events during this type of dream can result in lucidity as the dream is being judged by waking “standards.”

[theist]

Narasinha,

 

I must post again to assure you that I am in no way offended by anyone here. I have just done this too many times as it comes up often. I have also been around a while and I know that when Prabhupada was here there was no such major disagreement amongst his disciples. The fact that the material world is a dreamlike condition was commonly understood.

 

And I am not really sure what your position is anyway all I have seen is that you oppose the dreaming idea. I am sure you would agree that the material world is maya and illusion so why do you disagree that it is a dream? Makes no sense to me but in no am I offended.

[theist]

 

Theist, please don't take offense. I amnot juggling words. Please acknowledge the ambiguity and redundancy ofthis idea: a parent waking their child from a nightmare to tell them itis a nightmare.

As a parent, I know there is no need to do this. They will simply wakeup, and upon waking, they will learn that it was a dream.

 

Well this is the attitude of the babaji and not a preacher like Srila Prabhupada. Most parents when they hear their child screaming and crying run to their room and try to awaken them. I have never heard of a parent who could refrain from trying to comfort their child by saying "no need they will awaken soon anyway".

 

BTW no one wakes up automatically from maya. There is also an intervention on the part of the Krishna either through the heart or through the devotee.

[Beggar]

I am dreaming of the solar system although last night I dreamed I was abducted by aliens who were disguised as ordinary dogs.

<table style="font-family: arial,helvetica; font-size: small; font-weight: bold;" width="90%" border="0"><tbody><tr valign="top" align="center"><td>

Introduction

 

</td> <td>

Sun</td> <td>

Mercury</td> <td>

Venus</td> <td>

Earth</td></tr> <tr valign="top" align="center"> <td>

Mars

 

</td> <td>

Jupiter</td> <td>

Saturn</td> <td>

Uranus</td> <td>

Neptune</td></tr> <tr valign="top" align="center"> <td>

Pluto</td> <td>

Asteroids

 

</td> <td>

Comets</td> <td> </td></tr></tbody></table>

[Beggar]

 

The fact that the material world is a dreamlike condition was commonly understood.

 

The idea that the material world is a dreamlike condition is accepted by all previous acaryas, the Gaudiya Math and its derivatives and the babajis.

It has nothing to do with the origin debate.

[primate]

 

It has nothing to do with the origin debate.

But it does: (real) time doesn't seem to exist in dream-like states.

[Sonic Yogi]

So, Prabhupada only dreamed there was planet that needed Krishna consciousness and he only dreamed that he spread the Sankirtan movement of Mahaprabhu all over the world?

If the world is just a dream, then why do so many incarnations come here to deliver living entities?

 

The material world is real.

The dream is that we are the enjoyers and the lords of the material world.

 

Pradhana is real.

Prakriti is real.

Maya is real.

 

The dream is our false ego.

The false ego is the dream.

The material energy is eternal.(as Pradhan)

It is not anyone's dream.

 

The dream of God is real.

It is not false.

 

If Vishnu dreams the material world it is still real, because the dream of Vishnu is reality.

[Beggar]

Dreamlike means dreamlike, it doesn't mean exactly the same thing as going to sleep at night and dreaming that you're being eaten by a tiger. But our mundane existence is similar to a dream. One of the reasons for this is that we are really only the observer or ksetrajna, knower of the field of the body.

The experience of the observer, ksetrajna is to observe the imput of the active senses to the mind and then the mind's concoctions based on these imputs and desire. The jiva soul is neither a material gross or subtle body but identifies with these through the concept of I and mind which is related to designations such as I am this body and this body is American, Indian or dog or cat etc. These designations are called upadhis or foreign things.

 

Chapter 19: Lord Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu Instructs Śrīla Rūpa GosvāmīBhaktivedanta VedaBase: Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta Madhya 19.170

sarvopādhi-vinirmuktaḿ

tat-paratvena nirmalam

hṛṣīkeṇa hṛṣīkeśa-

sevanaḿ bhaktir ucyate

SYNONYMS

sarva-upādhi-vinirmuktam — free from all kinds of material designations, or free from all desires except the desire to render service to the Supreme Personality of Godhead; tat-paratvena — by the sole purpose of serving the Supreme Personality of Godhead; nirmalam — uncontaminated by the effects of speculative philosophical research or fruitive activity; hṛṣīkeṇa — by purified senses freed from all designations; hṛṣīka-īśa — of the master of the senses; sevanam — the service to satisfy the senses; bhaktiḥ — devotional service; ucyate — is called.

TRANSLATION

"'Bhakti, or devotional service, means engaging all our senses in the service of the Lord, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, the master of all the senses. When the spirit soul renders service unto the Supreme, there are two side effects. One is freed from all material designations, and one's senses are purified simply by being employed in the service of the Lord.'

PURPORT

This verse quoted from the Nārada-pañcarātra is found in the Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu (1.1.12).

 

 

Srila Narayana Maharaja:

 

Sarvopadhi-vinirmuktam. You have to be free from all material designations, such as, "I am a king,I am a subject,I am the husband of this lady," or "I am a wife." Tat-paratvena nirmalam. There are two principles in this world. One is tat-padartha and another tam-padartha. Tat means Bhagavan, and tam means the jiva. Tat-paratvena. You have to be absorbed completely in the bhajana of Bhagavan, who sad-vastu, the reality. Then your heart will be pure. Tat-paratvena nirmalam / hrsikena hrsikesa-sevanam. After that, being pure hearted, you should serve God with all of your senses. Ambarisa Maharaja has shown us the light of how to serve God with all one's senses. If you do that, then it will be bhakti.

[primate]

 

So, Prabhupada only dreamed there was planet that needed Krishna consciousness and he only dreamed that he spread the Sankirtan movement of Mahaprabhu all over the world? ...

No, the (lucid!) vision of Prabhupada may have been absolutely correct. But the original question of this thread was: "Does time exist in the Spititual World?".

[theist]

 

The idea that the material world is a dreamlike condition is accepted by all previous acaryas, the Gaudiya Math and its derivatives and the babajis.

It has nothing to do with the origin debate.

 

 

That explains why you seem so lost when addressing my posts. I am not talking about the origin of the soul.

[Beggar]

 

That explains why you seem so lost when addressing my posts. I am not talking about the origin of the soul.

But just a few pages back on this thread:

 

Very nice Sarva. Thank you.

And then this:

 

The jiva IS tatashta. We are the marginal energy of the Lord. To think of tatashta being so tiny as to not be measurable gives the wrong idea. The jiva's constitution is not measurable.

The above statement does pertain directly to the origin of the jiva soul.

Then my response which you think is so lost directly pertains to:

 

No point in trying any longer to convince you three. All of you are intiated disciples of Srila Prabhupada and if he can't convince you you are dreaming then who am I to.

 

Hare Krishna

Which seems to imply that those who do not accept that it is proper to say that the jiva is dreaming from a position in Goloka do not accept that the jiva is "dreaming" from any point. I've written before that due to polarization on this subject, some on the tatastha origin side have indeed dropped the concept of the dreamlike quality of material existence. I am pointing out that this is a fault and not indicative of any bonafide current, recent, or past acarya in the Gaudiya Vaisnava line.

[Sonic Yogi]

 

No, the (lucid!) vision of Prabhupada may have been absolutely correct. But the original question of this thread was: "Does time exist in the Spititual World?".

We already quoted the acharya and shastra to show that there is time in the spiritual world.

How many times do we have to prove what has already been proven?

 

In case you are new to forums, threads take all kinds of twists and turns and I haven't found one yet that stays strictly on topic.

 

It's like driving on the highway.

 

You don't always follow the speed limit, you just go with the flow.

[theist]

Seriously beggar you are on some strange trip. I started this thread with the question of time in the spiritual world.

 

 

beggar:The above statement does pertain directly to the origin of the jiva soul.

Then my response which you think is so lost directly pertains to:

 

Quote:

<table width="100%" border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0"><tbody><tr><td style="border: 1px solid rgb(102, 102, 102); padding-left: 3ex; padding-right: 3ex;" bgcolor="#e0e0e0"> Originally Posted by theist

Nopoint in trying any longer to convince you three. All of you areintiated disciples of Srila Prabhupada and if he can't convince you youare dreaming then who am I to.

Hare Krishna

</td></tr></tbody></table>This statement pertains to the fact that the soul in maya is in a dreamlike state. Can't you read?

 

Enough.

[primate]

 

We already quoted the acharya and shastra to show that there is time in the spiritual world.

How many times do we have to prove what has already been proven?

 

In case you are new to forums, threads take all kinds of twists and turns and I haven't found one yet that stays strictly on topic.

 

It's like driving on the highway.

 

You don't always follow the speed limit, you just go with the flow.

Fair enough..

[Beggar]

 

Seriously beggar you are on some strange trip. I started this thread with the question of time in the spiritual world...This statement pertains to the fact that the soul in maya is in a dreamlike state. Can't you read?

 

Enough.

I dare say theist, do be careful what you write. Remember you are still under oath!

[Beggar]

 

 

What we have here is a failure to communicate!

 

 

[Sonic Yogi]

The jiva in maya is simply dreaming!!!