Can one fall from the brahmajyoti?

[theist]

No because that state is already a fallen state.

 

Letter to: Revatinandana

—

Los Angeles

13 June, 1970

70-06-13

 

 

Santa Barbara

My Dear Revatinandana,

Please accept my blessings. I am in due receipt ofyour letter dated 6th June, 1970, along with a check for $100, andthank you very much.

Regarding your question whether you may go toRathayatra festival, yes, you may go because in your present temple theDeities are not regularly installed. So you can close the temple for afew days keeping in front of the Deities some dried fruits and atumbler of water. <jd:"lt-deity worship-cleanliness="" 11=""> <jd:"lt-deity worship-installation="" 07="">When the Deity is installed it is called niyama seva. That means the routine seva prescribed after installation you cannot stop.</jd:"lt-deity>But Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu is very kind to the fallen souls of theKali Yuga and He is satisfied with chanting of Hare Krsna mantra. Andfor chanting the Hare Krsna mantra there is nohard and fast rules and regulations, so if you are absent for chantingHare Krsna mantra somewhere else, it is as good as to chant the HareKrsna mantra in the temple. Your chanting may not be stopped; it doesnot matter where you chant.</jd:"lt-deity>

The next question, about the living entitiesfalling down in this material world are not from the impersonalbrahman. Existence in the impersonal brahma is also within the categoryof non-Krsna consciousness. Those who are in the brahman effulgencethey are also in the fallen condition, so there is no question of falling down from a fallen condition. When fall takes place, it means falling down from the non-fallen condition.

The non-fallen condition is Krsna consciousness. Solong one can maintain pure Krsna consciousness he is not fallen down.As soon as he becomes out of Krsna consciousness immediately he isfallen down. It does not matter where a living entity stays. In thematerial world also there are different stages of living conditions,and to remain in the brahman effulgence is also another phase of thatfallen condition. Just like in the Bhagavad-gita it is stated thatconditioned souls by their pious activities are elevated to the higherplanetary system, but as soon as the stock of pious activities isfinished he again comes down on the earthly planet. Similarly those whoare elevated beyond the planetary system to the brahma effulgence, theyare also prone to fall down as much as a living entity from the higher planetary system.

As such those who are thinking that they areliberated by being situated in brahman effulgence are described in theSrimad-Bhagavatam as impurely intelligent. In other words, they areactually not liberated, and because they are not actually liberatedthey again come down to the material world as much as a living entityelevated to the higher planetary system comes down to this earthlyplanet. So we do not accept anyone elevated to the brahman effulgenceas actually liberated.

I hope this will clarify the matter for you.

Hope this will meet you in good health.

Your ever well-wisher,

A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami

ACBS:db

[RamanaDasi]

This is contrary to the teaching of the Upanishads

 

And a person liberated in brahman is called, in Chaitanyadev's philsophy, a mukta

 

Now you want to convince us a mukta has not attained mukti

 

You are deceiving yourself and also attempting to deceive others. Shame on you.

[bija]

 

Existence in the impersonal brahma is also within the categoryof non-Krsna consciousness. Those who are in the brahman effulgence they are also in the fallen condition, so there is no question of falling down from a fallen condition. When fall takes place, it means falling down from the non-fallen condition. Prabhupada

 

Quote:

<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(102, 102, 102); padding-left: 3ex; padding-right: 3ex;" bgcolor="#e0e0e0"> Brahmajyoti is the effulgence from Lord Gaura Krishna's divine body so it's source is directly from Goloka. So Brahmajyoti also pervades the space in which the spiritual planets are floating. The tatashtha (marginal) line which is the original place of all the non-nitya-siddha souls, is the part of the Brahmajyoti between the material and spiritual worlds which mostly does not contain any spiritual planets. Srila Gurudeva. </td> </tr> </tbody></table>

How close is our heart to Radha? That will clarify our potential for fall. (we must remember Prabhupada speaks from the viewpoint of Gaudiya philosophy) :

So we do not accept anyone elevated to the brahman effulgence as actually liberated.

 

Bhaktivinoda in Sri Krsna Samhita talks about the sun, and various planets, and satellites. You see if we are on the further outreach of the centre of our field, we need to hold tight to mercy potency - then we will not fall. Each jiva has relation - some great, some small. Smallness magnifies mercy. We are fortunate because we are redeemed by mercy potency and have potential for residence in Navadwipa-Goloka Vrindavan.

 

Even if we are residing far far away from Radha Dham, we are the closest of all because we reside in Nitaai-Gaura's heart. And that love of Gaura is the pinnacle of Radha-Krsna tattva. The most exalted kind of love.

 

To take birth in the yuga when Mahaprabhu appeared is ultimately very rare...as his appearnce does not take place in this earth plane in all yugas.

 

We are here Theist, now, in this world - there is no denying that. We are not nitya-siddhas having subconscious dreams - we are nitya-baddha jiva's who are always dependent on mercy of a higher plane. That is our bhajan and that is our greatness (that dependence - servant of the servant of the servant). This subconscious dreaming philosophy is false distortion, and takes away the finer nuance of Gaura's teachings.

<!-- END TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote -->

[theist]

 

This is contrary to the teaching of the Upanishads

 

And a person liberated in brahman is called, in Chaitanyadev's philsophy, a mukta

 

Now you want to convince us a mukta has not attained mukti

 

You are deceiving yourself and also attempting to deceive others. Shame on you.

 

 

It was Prabhupada's letter so you are really calling Prabhupada a shameless deceiver.

 

 

You know Caitanya's philosophy better than Srila Prabhupada. Yeah right.

 

 

 

For myself I will take Prabhupada over you.

[theist]

 

(we must remember Prabhupada speaks from the viewpoint of Gaudiya philosophy) :

 

Oh I do remember and that is why posted his perspective.

 

When you see the brahmajyoti from the Krishna conscious point of view you see it in relationship to Krishna. That is glorious and not a "fallen' perspective.

 

When you see the bramajyoti from the impersonalist viewpoint or have merged within it that is a fallen state because Krishna as a person is not included.

 

This is basic Krishna conscious philosophy.

[Sarva gattah]

 

No because that state is already a fallen state.

 

Letter to: Revatinandana

—

Los Angeles

13 June, 1970

70-06-13

 

 

Santa Barbara

My Dear Revatinandana,

Please accept my blessings. I am in due receipt ofyour letter dated 6th June, 1970, along with a check for $100, andthank you very much.

Regarding your question whether you may go toRathayatra festival, yes, you may go because in your present temple theDeities are not regularly installed. So you can close the temple for afew days keeping in front of the Deities some dried fruits and atumbler of water. <?xml:namespace prefix = jd /><jd:"lt-deity 11="" worship-cleanliness=""><jd:"lt-deity 07="" worship-installation="">When the Deity is installed it is called niyama seva. That means the routine seva prescribed after installation you cannot stop.</jd:"lt-deity>But Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu is very kind to the fallen souls of theKali Yuga and He is satisfied with chanting of Hare Krsna mantra. Andfor chanting the Hare Krsna mantra there is nohard and fast rules and regulations, so if you are absent for chantingHare Krsna mantra somewhere else, it is as good as to chant the HareKrsna mantra in the temple. Your chanting may not be stopped; it doesnot matter where you chant.</jd:"lt-deity>

The next question, about the living entitiesfalling down in this material world are not from the impersonalbrahman. Existence in the impersonal brahma is also within the categoryof non-Krsna consciousness. Those who are in the brahman effulgencethey are also in the fallen condition, so there is no question of falling down from a fallen condition. When fall takes place, it means falling down from the non-fallen condition.

The non-fallen condition is Krsna consciousness. Solong one can maintain pure Krsna consciousness he is not fallen down.As soon as he becomes out of Krsna consciousness immediately he isfallen down. It does not matter where a living entity stays. In thematerial world also there are different stages of living conditions,and to remain in the brahman effulgence is also another phase of thatfallen condition. Just like in the Bhagavad-gita it is stated thatconditioned souls by their pious activities are elevated to the higherplanetary system, but as soon as the stock of pious activities isfinished he again comes down on the earthly planet. Similarly those whoare elevated beyond the planetary system to the brahma effulgence, theyare also prone to fall down as much as a living entity from the higher planetary system.

As such those who are thinking that they areliberated by being situated in brahman effulgence are described in theSrimad-Bhagavatam as impurely intelligent. In other words, they areactually not liberated, and because they are not actually liberatedthey again come down to the material world as much as a living entityelevated to the higher planetary system comes down to this earthlyplanet. So we do not accept anyone elevated to the brahman effulgenceas actually liberated.

I hope this will clarify the matter for you.

Hope this will meet you in good health.

Your ever well-wisher,

A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami

ACBS:db

Yes, very good excellent research theist, anyone like yogis, impersonalists, philosophers coming from the impersonal Brahmajyoti are coming already from a fallen state they entered after going through the mahat-tattva (material creation).

 

Merging into the Brahmajyoti (attempting to escape from the suffering and temporary nature of the material world) is also temporary and eventually ALLl from there as well.

 

To a Vaishnava, merging into the impersonal Brahmajyoti is considered spiritual suicide because one is attempting to eradicate their individuality.

Some foolishly say we originate from the impersonal Brahmajyoti or some plain sheet of inactive consciousness but long, long, long before that we were originally with Krishna in Goloka.

[melvin]

 

Oh I do remember and that is why posted his perspective.

 

When you see the brahmajyoti from the Krishna conscious point of view you see it in relationship to Krishna. That is glorious and not a "fallen' perspective.

 

When you see the bramajyoti from the impersonalist viewpoint or have merged within it that is a fallen state because Krishna as a person is not included.

 

This is basic Krishna conscious philosophy.

 

Theist, in other words, there are two brahmajyotis, one coming from Brahman( impersonalist point of view) and the other coming from Krsna(in relation to Krsna)? One for the fallen and one for the victorious? There is indeed two sides of a coin.

[RamanaDasi]

 

Some foolishly say we originate from the impersonal Brahmajyoti or some plain sheet of inactive consciousness but long, long, long before that we were originally with Krishna in Goloka.

 

 

 

The souls are also compared with separate atomic emanations of the burning fire. Each soul has drawn from its Fountainhead a proportionate share of the attributes and consequently a small proportion of the free will. These souls are naturally located between the chit jagat, and mayik jagat. Those who chose to serve their God were protected from fall by the interference of the hladini attribute of the Supreme chit sakti. They have been admitted as eternal servants of the Deity in various ways. They know not the troubles of maya and the karma-chakra or the rotative principles of mayik action and its result. Those who wanted to enjoy were grasped by maya from the other side. They are in maya’s karma-chakra, ending only when they again see their original position as servants of the Deity. These souls, whether liberated from maya or enthralled by her, are separate responsible beings depending on the Deity. Hari is the Lord of maya, who serves Him at His pleasure. The soul or jiva is so constructed as to be liable to be enthralled by maya in consequence of want of power when unassisted by the hladini-sakti of the Deity.

 

- Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu, his life and precepts

 

 

This is not a translated text, rather these are the direct words in English of Bhaktivinoda Thakura who says some souls who chose to serve the Lord were admitted into the spiritual world (from the "burning fire" of Brahman) and some other souls went into Maya.

 

No matter how you wriggle, it is absolutely clear that in this English language book written by Bhaktivinoda Thakura he states EXPLICITELY that souls started off from a neutral position (Brahman).

 

 

First event:

some souls chose to serve their God

 

Second event:

those souls were protected from fall by the interference of the hladini attribute of the Supreme chit sakti.

 

Third event:

They have been admitted as eternal servants of the Deity in various ways.

 

This is the sequence of events Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura said occurs and this is totally the opposite of the idea that souls start off in the lila of Krishna and come down into illusion. Either Bhaktivinoda Thakura is wrong or the people on the other side of this debate are wrong. Believe what you like, but this statement of Bhaktivinoda Thakura is perfectly clear: souls start off in a state where the souls may be "compared with separate atomic emanations of the burning fire".

 

 

And for souls who emerged from samadhi and desired to be lords of maya:

Those who wanted to enjoy were grasped by maya from the other side.

 

This is the teaching of Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura

 

Foolish? Who are you calling foolish?

[bija]

 

Each soul has drawn from its Fountainhead a proportionate share of the attributes and consequently a small proportion of the free will. These souls are naturally located between the chit jagat, and mayik jagat. thakura

The jiva in the tatashta line is potent due to its being of cit (spiritual) substance. Therefore due to that consciousness, its tendency to expand outwardly. But due to its minuteness it can become bewildered by maya.

 

 

The soul or jiva is so constructed as to be liable to be enthralled by maya in consequence of want of power when unassisted by the hladini-sakti of the Deity. thakura

Whereas once its moves toward the internal aspect of cit-spirtual energy its becomes stable - one could say its true nature, stayi-bhava. When the jiva becomes stabilised it is said to be fixed.

 

The marginal jiva which is prone to fall has always had a dim reflection of bliss, therefore it desired to seek brighter bliss. Not realizing that its well being was actually internal. We can see the truth of this in this world, the jiva is always looking outward to satisfy its needs, due to a feeling of incompleteness. But once it discovers its real benefit hankering ceases.

[bija]

 

...it is absolutely clear that in this English language book written by Bhaktivinoda Thakura he states EXPLICITELY that souls started off from a neutral position (Brahman). dasi

This neutral position is santa rasa. Krsna is so attractive that even those great souls in santa rasa feel even more bliss perceiving madhurya rasa. As far as I have read Brhad Bhagavatamrta explains this...therefore the four kumaras etc mentioned in Srimad Bhagavatam.

 

But saying that I am not sure how it is that the original stayi-bhava is inherent. Maybe that is due to the mercy of hladhini potency. I honestly have not read that yet (explicitly yet - but it is mentioned below)... so I dont know whether your statement is right or wrong Dasi. But considering the brahman effulgence is the glow of Goloka the stayi-bhava must be inherent due to hladhini's potency - because we are servants of the highest rasa (Sri Sri Radha-Krsna). I do know that each souls particular stayi-bhava is eternal. And I do know for example, that parental rasa gains deep satisfaction in watching madhurya ras etc. That is revealed in Naam bhajan.

 

And I do know if we are fully fixed in that potency we will never fall. Guru's etc who have fallen in the past were not yet fixed.

 

 

...2. The process of conquering illusion

 

The living entity, bewildered by maya, is crushed again and

again by the miseries of material existence. Becoming exasperated

with these miseries, he may obtain the service of saintly

persons by some great fortune. At that time his faith awakens

towards devotion unto the Supreme Lord as being the exclusive

goal of the scriptures. Alternatively, he may awaken

intense longing for the unparalleled ***sweetness*** of Bhagavan.

At that time, he attains eligibility for bhakti, which is predominated by the pleasuregiving

aspect (hladinî) of the Lord’s internal potency.

Upon the awakening of faith, he first of all takes shelter of

the lotus feet of a spiritual master by accepting harinama initiation

from him. Thereafter, in the association of the spiritual

master and pure Vaisnavas, he obtains an excellent opportunity

to hear the truths of the scriptures. When he begins to perform

kîrtana of the holy names (nama), form (rupa), qualities (guna)

and pastimes (lila of Krsna, the process of conquering maya

begins. This means that his ignorance and the impediments

that obstruct his spiritual progress (anarthas) begin to vanish.

Simultaneously, the pure form of the jîva starts to become clear.

This is the process by which hari-kirtana becomes victorious

within the phenomenal world of matter. By this process, harikîrtana

makes its descent into this illusory world. By performing

hari-kîrtana according to this system, one obtains seven excellent

results. These seven kinds of results are spoken of in Verse

One by the words ceto-darpana-marjanam and so on. Each of

these will now be separately discussed....

http://www.purebhakti.com/resources/ebooks-a-magazines-mainmenu-63/doc_download/69-siksastaka.html

 

[Lotusflower]

i though you asked have we fallen from tatatsa shakti, i was about to slap you around your face,

[Sarva gattah]

The full potential of what is REAL, of what is REALITY is that it is imperishable, and never fades away, which means it is always in the perpetual state of originality.

So how are we to understand that our dreams on the absolute level are also real and transmitted as the nitya-baddha conscious state to the material creation? Now we cannot compare the dreams we have in our material body that are illusion, with the dreams we have in our pure state initiated by free will and choice.

Nitya-siddha is when we are in our natural pure state of REALITY, eternally liberated in Goloka, serving God or Krishna.

Nitya-baddha state is when we are in our unnatural impure state of TRANSITORY REALITY eternally conditioned in the mahat tattva, serving one's selfish interests, unaware of their PERMANENTLY REAL nitya-siddha authentic self in Goloka.

The original and eternal position of all living individuals, known as the marginal living entities, is their perpetual rasa (devotional mood) nitya-siddha-svarupa body that is eternally serving Krishna in the ‘eternal present’ where there is no past or future, as previously explained.

This means there is also no decay, impermanence birth, disease, old age, death and forgetfulness in the perpetual REALITY Kingdom of God known as Goloka-Vrndavana and the Vaikuntha planets.

Therefore, it is not due to forgetfulness we ‘sub-conscious’ project our awareness from our perpetual body in Goloka and enter the virtual world of the mahat tattva, it is initiated due to choice.

If we are to correctly understand that we all originate from Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha, such realizations are only possible by the mercy of Srila Prabhupada, and without his mercy one will never understand. Everything Srila Prabhupada said and wrote must be understood in the context of His books, lectures, morning walks, and classes.

This is the correct way to appreciate the criteria of guru, sadhu, and shastra. All interpretations of his teachings that fail these criteria of guru, sadu and shastra are to be considered bogus; therefore everything in this book is based very clearly on the teachings of His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami.

Lord Krishna or the Supreme Personality of Godhead is always the absolute truth with an all-attractive Vigraha or Bodily Form yet is also simultaneously everywhere personally and impersonally within His creation.

Krishna is always as His beautiful Syamasundara form that never vacates from His Goloka-Vrndavana central abode, yet is simultaneously manifested as unlimited four-armed Vishnu Forms throughout the Vaikuntha planets. Both these abodes are the perpetual Kingdom of Krishna that exists in the eternal present devoid of past and future, as the Brahma Samhita tells us.

Vishnu and Lakshmi in the Vaikunthas where their devotees are in the mood of servitorship, and Radha Krishna in Goloka-Vrndavana where Krishnas mood is more intimate with His devotees in the disposition of friendship and conjugal love.

Even though Krishna is eternally in His central Goloka-Vrndavana Planet that resembles a lotus flower as shown above, He also resides as Vishnu in the surrounding Vaikuntha Planets.

Krishna further expands Himself from His Sankarsana or Balarama bodily form to the sleeping Maha-Vishnu form who builds His own abode in one corner of the Spiritual Sky, as shown above that is called the mahat-tattva or material creation.

Maha-Vishnu is never affected by this dark cloud OF TEMPORARY OR FADING REALITY He has constructed in His corner of the Spiritual Sky (shown above) that exists in a completely different dimensional phenomenon of time and space than the Vaikuntha planets.

In His mahat-tattva (jada-jagat- lifeless world) there is also eternal time however, it is divided by past, present and future which has the by-product phenomenon of impermanence, decay birth and death that does not exist in the perpetual ‘present’ in Goloka-Vrndavana or Vaikuntha (cid-jagat) which makes up the majority of the Spiritual Sky or Brahmajyoti.

The original and eternal position of all living individuals, known as the marginal living entities is their perpetual rasa (devotional mood) nitya-siddha-svarupa body, that is eternally serving Krishna in the ‘eternal present’ where there is no past or future, as previously explained. The jiva in its natural state serves in the ‘eternal present’ in Goloka Vrndavana or Vaikuntha worlds that, not only have no past or future as we trapped in the material world experience, but also has no beginning or end, birth or death, decay, pain or suffering. The eternal presents of Goloka with Krishna and His living entities is imperishable and therefore has always existed. The jivas were never created, we have always been.

The Vedas mention creation because they are referring to the mahat tattva that is created and eventually destroyed. The Vaikunthas on the other hand, were NEVER created because the Kingdom of God has always been as you have mentioned in your quote of the Brahma Samhita

It is very hard trying to understand no beginning nor end then hear the paradox that Krishna created everything.

There is no creation except for the mahat tattva or material 'creation' Vaikuntha has always been, will always be, and will never cease to be.

Its all coming from within your heart, pray to Krishna and Guru to guide you, only then will you understand

The jiva in its natural state serves in the ‘eternal present’ in Goloka Vrndavana or Vaikuntha worlds that, not only have no past or future as we trapped in the material world experience, but also has no beginning or end, birth or death, decay, pain or suffering. The eternal presents of Goloka with Krishna and His living entities is imperishable and therefore has always existed. The jivas were never created, we have always been.

The Vedas mention creation because they are referring to the mahat tattva that is created and eventually destroyed. The Vaikunthas on the other hand, were NEVER created because the Kingdom of God has always been as you have mentioned in your quote of the Brahma Samhita

It is very hard trying to understand no beginning nor end then hear the paradox that Krishna created everything.

There is no creation except for the mahat tattva or material 'creation' Vaikuntha has always been, will always be, and will never cease to be.

Its all coming from within your heart, pray to Krishna and Guru to guide you, only then will you understand

[bija]

Your arguments are very intelligent Sarva because you permeate your philosophy with eternal truths. And the readers take to that becuase it is intuited by us all (even if unconsciously) .

 

But, we are not nitya-siddha sarva...we are servants of such. That is the humble postition. If you water down that key truth, you then water down the subtle nuances of Gaudiya siddhanta. And those subtle nuances are only known through realization - as you well know.

[theist]

 

Theist, in other words, there are two brahmajyotis, one coming from Brahman( impersonalist point of view) and the other coming from Krsna(in relation to Krsna)? One for the fallen and one for the victorious? There is indeed two sides of a coin.

 

 

No, brahmajyoti is one but seen from different perspectives. Just like at dawn we first see the sunshine and not the source of the sunshine the sun globe.

Those that claim that is all there is and that the sunshine has no source are impersonalists.

 

 

The Vaisnavas know that there is a source of the sunshine, the sun globe. They appreciate very much the first light of dawn but they steadfastly wait in anticipation of the rising of the sunglobe in which the sun and sunshine are both appreciated properly in their true relationship to each other.

[Sarva gattah]

 

 

 

The spiritual sky IS the brahmajyoti, 75% is the Vaikuntha planets of perpetual active service that surround Goloka and 25% of the Brahmajyoti is the material world or mahat-tattva.

 

Only in the mahat tattva can the impersonal aspect of the Brahmajyoti exist

 

 

 

[theist]

 

Your arguments are very intelligent Sarva because you permeate your philosophy with eternal truths. And the readers take to that becuase it is intuited by us all (even if unconsciously) .

 

But, we are not nitya-siddha sarva...we are servants of such. That is the humble postition. If you water down that key truth, you then water down the subtle nuances of Gaudiya siddhanta. And those subtle nuances are only known through realization - as you well know.

 

 

I disagree bija. nitya-siddha are themselves servants of the other nitya-siddha's as well as Krsna. They are in a humble position.

 

 

 

Here is a question for you. Suppose you are a resident of the King's palace. One day the prince is found missing and all are sent out to find him. You find him but he is in a drunken state, dressed like a derelic and very dirty looking nothing like a prince.

 

 

Have you found the prince or some drunkard?

[bija]

 

Here is a question for you. Suppose you are a resident of the King's palace. One day the prince is found missing and all are sent out to find him. You find him but he is in a drunken state, dressed like a derelic and very dirty looking nothing like a prince.

 

 

Have you found the prince or some drunkard?

I am sorry Theist I do not understand your analogy. Maybe you can explain a little more for my dull mind.

 

 

I disagree bija. nitya-siddha are themselves servants of the other nitya-siddha's as well as Krsna. They are in a humble position.

Yes ofcourse.

 

When I use the term nitya-baddha I do not mean that we are eternally condemned. What I mean is our constitution within the tatashta is such that we are dependant upon higher principle. This is why we fell, because we were unaware of our constitutional nature. That is our vulnerability..and why we so desperately need to discover the shelter of hladhini.

 

We are definately granted the eternally liberated status, once we realize in humility what we are. Srila BR Sridhara Maharaja has gone into great detail about this siddhanta. This is Gaura Tattva. He suggests if we are unaware of that constitution...we will trample. He learnt this from Srila Bhaktisiddhanta, who I presume learnt it from Srila Bhaktivinoda.

 

We, Theist, are satellites, not planets... please refer to Sri Krsna Samhita. That is the secret of our bhajan in the Brahma-Madhava-Caitanya-Bhaktivinoda-Saraswati lineage. They called it 'keeping a distance'.

[theist]

TRhe question is very simple and you are very intelligent. I think youare feigning not understanding to avoid answering.

[bija]

I am not interested in tricky dealings like that. Its not about ego today mate...its much deeper...

 

 

I am sorry Theist I do not understand your analogy.

I do not understand in relation to the conversation flow.

 

 

I would have found the prince?

 

Can you please explain your analogy in relation to what we are talking about. My dull old brain is the problem. We are on internet Theist, there will be some communication gap.

[suchandra]

 

This is contrary to the teaching of the Upanishads

 

And a person liberated in brahman is called, in Chaitanyadev's philsophy, a mukta

 

Now you want to convince us a mukta has not attained mukti

 

You are deceiving yourself and also attempting to deceive others. Shame on you.

 

Prabhupada's comments are self-explanatory, require no further interpretation.

Interpretation is required when things are not clear. When things are clear, no further analysis leads to a better result.

[theist]

 

I am not interested in tricky dealings like that. Its not about ego today mate...its much deeper...

 

I do not understand in relation to the conversation flow.

 

 

I would have found the prince?

 

Can you please explain your analogy in relation to what we are talking about. My dull old brain is the problem. We are on internet Theist, there will be some communication gap.

 

 

There is no need to understand the anaology just to answer the question.

 

 

Despite the question mark I take your answer as your found the prince.

 

 

 

Here is a question for you. Suppose you are a resident of the King's palace. One day the prince is found missing and all are sent out to find him. You find him but he is in a drunken state, dressed like a derelic and very dirty looking, nothing like a prince.

 

 

Have you found the prince or some drunkard?

 

 

 

Your answer is correct you have found the prince. Those that think the man you found is a drunkard are those with external vision only. But you who know and live amongst the royal family can recognize the prince because they have the knowledge that allows them to see beyond the externals.

 

 

The obvious characters are:

 

 

The King - Krishna

 

The palace - vaikuntha sky

The prince - jiva as nitya-siddha

 

The prince as drunkard - the "fallen" jiva or nitya-baddha

 

The one who finds and recognizes the prince and takes him back to the palace is the self realized guru who sees things as they are and knows the true identity of living beings.

 

 

The devotee sees everyone as nitya-siddha. Nitya baddha means they need to be reminded just as the prince needs to clean up from his drunken state.

[jeffster]

Sorry, I am somewhat confused by the apparent discrepancy between what Prabhupad said and what Bhaktivinode Thakur is quoted as saying by Ramana dasi in her post # 8. I want to attempt to reconcile this for my own sake. Is it not entirely possible, since Krishna is ever-expanding, that He is indeed generating souls from the tattashta-sakti ? These souls would, of course, be eternal, coming out essentially from the brahmajyoti, which is eternal. But as Bhaktivinode Thakur said, they would have minute free will, some would choose to serve in the spiritual side, others would be attracted by maya and move to the material conception, thereby becoming entangled in samsara.

What some of you seem to be suggesting is that the jiva can be in 2 places at once, 1.) eternally liberated with Krishna, and 2.) simultaneously having a bad dream of a sojourn in the material world. Is is possible for a jiva, which is anu-atma, miniscule and atomic, to be in 2 places at once ? Please don't tell me that this is inconceivable. Inconceivable it may be, but I am attempting to understand it logically, because that is the only way I can understand this. I don't believe it is possible to be in these 2 places at once. If we are here in the material world, only our physical body and mind are functioning, powered by our soul energy, but our spiritual identity is shrivelled up and unrecognisable; and if we are in Goloka, manifesting our full siddha-deha, then there is obviously no need for a mind or physical body. But to me it seems that they must be mutually exclusive, that is, one event cannot be happening while the other event is happening.

This seems to be corroborated in the statement attributed to Krishna in Loving Search for the Lost Servant by B.R. Srihara Swami, which states " Once, as Krishna and the cows were returning from the Vrndabana forest at the end of the day, a boy had just attained spiritual emancipation and entered Vrndaban as a cowherd boy. Seeing His long lost servant, Krishna embraced him and both of them fainted in ecstasy. "Why did you stay away ? Why have you been living away from home for so long ? How was it possible for you ? How could you bear My separation ? You left Me, and you have been passing lives after lives without Me ? Still, I know what trouble you took to return to Me. You searched for Me everywhere, and went to beg from house to house, and you were chastised by many, ridiculed by many, and you shed tears for Me. I know all these things. I was with you. And now, after great trouble, you have again come back to Me."

I understand that we can never fully grasp this with mundane logic, but there must be a certain logic to it, or it seems wholly specious, especially more to an outsider if we can't explain it somewhat reasonably to them.

I am relatively new here, and not well known. I respect the opinions and positions of all the posters in this post, particularly when they back up what they say by shastra. Frankly, my own opinion, for what its worth, is that ANYTHING IS POSSIBLE. Therefore, some jivas may in fact decide to leave Krishna for a time even after having been in Goloka; and other souls, never having been in Goloka, having descended from the tattashta-sakti, attempt a sojourn here through the material cosmos until such time as they become materially exhausted, then find the path of bhakti and go back home. In the Gita, Krishna says that having once gone to the spiritual side, one does not return to birth and death in the material world. But is there an exception ? Is that exception UNLESS ONE WANTS TO, because we have minute independence, minute free will ?

Regards, jeffster/AMdas

[theist]

jeffster,

 

I won't attempt to answer the many points you brought up. There are many threads on this topic and you can use the search button to find them.

 

I'll try on this one however.

 

What some of you seem to be suggestingis that the jiva can be in 2 places at once, 1.) eternally liberatedwith Krishna, and 2.) simultaneously having a bad dream of a sojourn inthe material world. Is is possible for a jiva, which is anu-atma,miniscule and atomic, to be in 2 places at once ?

 

I will answer with a question if yoiu don't mind (and even if you do;)).

 

When you lay your body down at night and dream and even experience that you are actually in that dream body and scenario are you really in two places at once?

 

It is like that when you consider that the waking state of jeffster is really a dream also. Everything about the material world is dream substance. So another important question to contemplate is, Are you really in the material world at all right now?

[bija]

Jeffster, my understanding is this:

 

Personally I will not accept that I am a nitya-siddha sleeping in some grove in Goloka dreaming of this ghastly horror. The siddha-deha is incorruptible in my opinion and the subconscious dream states are from mahat-tattva which is manifest for the corruptible.

 

I do accept that all souls here on earth are brahman. Therefore pure spirit souls in connection with super-soul (moving toward home). I do accept that nitya-siddha's souls come to this earth plane to deliver the fallen.

 

I accept my position as a nitya-baddha soul (as suggested by Srila Bhaktivinoda) for one esoteric reason in relation to bhajan: The nitya-siddha realm (Goloka and all that it entails) is my worshipable object (even the trees and grass). I follow the teaching of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta and worship from a distance that perfect land. Not rushing in and trampling. Not considering myself nitya-siddha (but instead a follower of a nitya-siddha ). This is the fine nuance of Gaura Tattva that mercy has given the nitya-baddha souls of the the tatashta shakti. Such a position of worship is glorious for the nitya-baddha jiva, and will raise such to the fulfillment of her pure heart.

 

Why, because from such a position we can feel the intense ecstatcy of Sri Radha and her maidens. We can receive that grace because we have taken the correct position of deep humility. Servant of the servant of the servant of the servant....

 

If I did consider myself a nitya-siddha in that realm sleeping (and dreaming this ghastly dream), my bhajan would be tainted with two flaws. One, the siddha-deha would be colored with maya. Two, the unique esoteric bhava would be lost as I would be identifying myself as the worshipable object (nitya-siddha) (and that object would hence be corruptible). This is a fine nuance and secret of bhajan in the lineage I follow.

 

* On a side note I have only entered firmly into this debate for one reason. To show that this sleeping-jiva philosophy (taught by Sarva) uses quotes from Srila Prabhupada and is infact his (sarva's) philosophy, not fully Iskcons - other devotees (such as realist) who use the same list of Prabhupada quotes are his alt. avatars at Audarya. The dreaming hypothesis seems to be an evolution in thought from the fall from Goloka theory. And I have spoken out against Sarva's philosophy for one reason of good intent: that such a kind of bhajan may possibly remove the fine nuances of worshipping from a distance, and thus minimize spiritual growth.

 

Sarva continually presses this dogma, which then enters the hearts of listeners, and so on.

 

Instead I choose to aspire for the raganuga path, and oneday follow a nitya-siddha (in Gokula) and to worship such a soul as my dearest friend and well-wisher. Following this instruction of Sri Krsna (super-soul): yathecchasi tatha kuru 'As you like you may act' BG 18.63

[bija]

 

Bhaktivedanta VedaBase: Bhagavad-gītā As It Is 18.63

 

 

iti te jñānam ākhyātaḿ

guhyād guhyataraḿ mayā

vimṛśyaitad aśeṣeṇa

yathecchasi tathā kuru

 

SYNONYMS

iti — thus; te — unto you; jñānam — knowledge; ākhyātam — described; guhyāt — than confidential; guhya-taram — still more confidential; mayā — by Me; vimṛśya — deliberating; etat — on this; aśeṣeṇa — fully; yathā — as; icchasi — you like; tathā — that; kuru — perform.

 

 

TRANSLATION

Thus I have explained to you knowledge still more confidential. Deliberate on this fully, and then do what you wish to do.

 

 

PURPORT

The Lord has already explained to Arjuna the knowledge of brahma-bhūta. One who is in the brahma-bhūta condition is joyful; he never laments, nor does he desire anything. That is due to confidential knowledge. Kṛṣṇa also discloses knowledge of the Supersoul. This is also Brahman knowledge, knowledge of Brahman, but it is superior.

Here the words yathecchasi tathā kuru — "As you like, you may act" — indicate that God does not interfere with the little independence of the living entity. In Bhagavad-gītā, the Lord has explained in all respects how one can elevate his living condition. The best advice imparted to Arjuna is to surrender unto the Supersoul seated within his heart. By right discrimination, one should agree to act according to the order of the Supersoul. That will help one become situated constantly in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, the highest perfectional stage of human life. Arjuna is being directly ordered by the Personality of Godhead to fight. Surrender to the Supreme Personality of Godhead is in the best interest of the living entities. It is not for the interest of the Supreme. Before surrendering, one is free to deliberate on this subject as far as the intelligence goes; that is the best way to accept the instruction of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Such instruction comes also through the spiritual master, the bona fide representative of Kṛṣṇa.