Can one fall from the brahmajyoti?

[bija]

 

can one fall from the brahmajyoti? by theist

No.

 

Can the particles (situated in the marginal line) within the sun rays (of Sri Krsna's body -Goloka) attain ever-new and expanding bliss (love of God)?

 

Yes, by taking shelter of Hladhini (internal potency).

 

 

If I did consider myself a nitya-siddha in that realm sleeping (and dreaming this ghastly dream), my bhajan would be tainted with two flaws. One, the siddha-deha would be colored with maya. Two, the unique esoteric bhava would be lost as I would be identifying myself as the worshipable object (nitya-siddha) (and that object would hence be corruptible). This is a fine nuance and secret of bhajan in the lineage I follow. by bija

 

 

....Bhakti is a function of the Lord’s internal potency (svarupa-sakti).

Suddha-sattva is the essence of the combination of the

hladhini and samvit aspects of the internal potency. When

suddha-sattva is obtained, bhakti is also present. By executing

the various practices of sadhana-bhakti, such as hearing, chanting

and so on, suddha-sattva arises in the heart. Suddha-sattva is

eternally existing in the hearts of the Lord’s eternal associates.

By performing bhakti under their guidance, suddha-sattva manifests

in the heart.

This suddha-sattva is also known as rati or bhava. By further

execution of bhakti in the stage of rati, bhava-bhakti is transformed

into prema-bhakti. The essence of prema-bhakti is bhava

[not to be confused with bhava-bhakti, but rather a stage that

comes in the systematic development of prema, i.e. rati, sneha,

mana, pranaya, raga, anuraga, bhava, mahabhava] and the

essence of bhava is mahabhava. This mahabhava is the very form

of Srîmatî Radhika, or otherwise stated, Srîmati Radhika is the

embodiment of mahabhava. Therefore, where mahabhava is

present, the form of Radhika is present.

Srimati Radhika is eternally the hladini aspect of Sri Krsna's

internal potency. Sri Krsna is the possessor of potency and

Srimati Radhika is His potency. Consequently They are one in

Their identity. For the purpose of sportive transcendental

pastimes (lila-vilasa), They manifest as two personalities.

Srimati Radhika further manifests as all the gopîs. Bhakti, as

the essential function of the internal potency, is always present

within the hearts of the gopîs. In particular, Srimati Radhika is

the personification of the svarupa-sakti and, consequently, the

personification of bhakti. Therefore the svarupa-sakti, as well as

bhakti, have been compared to the beloved consort of Sri Krsna

 

http://www.purebhakti.com/resources/ebooks-a-magazines-mainmenu-63/doc_download/69-siksastaka.html

It is stated very clearly that suddha-sattva will arise once we take shelter of nitya-siddha's, because suddha-sattva resides within the hearts of these eternal associates.

 

Therefore we surrender to Guru Tattva and prepare (in full humility) in this human birth, to go to Gokula. There in Gokula we have the association of Sri Krsna and associates, and under the guidance of our guide (nitya-siddha) we attain final purification. Then we enter Goloka.

 

This is the process mentioned by Srila Prabhupada in Caitanya Caritamrta purports, quoting his spiritual master.

[jeffster]

Hello Theist,

Hari Bol !! The main problem with using an analogy, like where are you when dreaming at night ?, is that an analogy is only meant to point to the reality, it isn't necessarily the reality itself. But to keep this simple and answer your question, "Are you really in the material world right now?" my answer is an unequivocal YES, I am. I am but a tiny spirit soul which has somehow arrived in this plane of misconception, and I am currently suffering the pangs of samsara. I am a nitya-baddha, but I am attempting to become purified and find the self and God (Krishna) simultaneously. In other words, self-realization and God-realization go hand in hand in the Gaudiya Vaishnava tradition. Right now my siddha-deha is for the most part unknown to me, although in actuality I have a clue of its identity. Although my real identity as soul may still be somewhat hazy, nonetheless it IS my soul, right here, right now, in this material world, that is powering my physical organism, that allows me to perceive sensory input, that is behind all my mental apparatus, that grants whatever intelligence or lack thereof that I may have, and that is more subtle than ahankara, the primary misconception that the self is a lord of matter rather than a servant of Krishna. Right now I am here in the material world, I am definitely NOT in the spiritual kingdom.

 

Bija, your posts # 24-26 make good sense, and I can generally understand and agree with them. I will certainly have to study this entire subject in more depth.

 

One thing I would add about the dream analogy is that although the material world is dreamlike, and ultimately insubstantial, it is still real, although temporary, and our experience here is real, also. To say otherwise starts to sound insane. We simply need to transfer our allegiance from the misconceptions (self as enjoyer, doer, controller, etc) of the temporal realm to the reality of being a servant in Krishna's plane. Hare Krishna.

Regards and pranams, jeffster/AMdas

[bija]

Yes Jeffster, I was thinking the same after reading Theist's suggestion. This world is not false, it is temporary. Nothing is false in the kingdom of God (summum bonum), but some things are of temporary nature and not eternal, orginating in external energy.

 

This sleeping philosophy is so subtle that it enters the heart very easily, and subtly changes the whole Gaudiya vision on a fundamental and esoteric level. This can be seen now at work in its hearers.

 

I would suggest it is so easily accepted because it explains away the gross sinful nature as a phantasmagoria, and in a subtle way psychologically removes the accountability and consequence of sin from the psyche. By placing the fallen sinful nature within the realm of Goloka lila.

 

Infact suggesting that eternal residents of Goloka have subconscious ghastly dreams, generated by Mahat-tattva is mayavada philosophy. Mayavada simply means that knowledge which is extracted from maya. How can the eternal residents (who we are to take shelter of) and who are expansions of Srimati Radha's bliss - come under the influence of maya? According to Gaudiya siddhanta it is impossible. Nitya-baddha jiva's can be swayed by the huge and vast external energy, but if they seek svarupa-shakti (internal energy) - made up of sandhini, samvit and hladhini - they are safe and have entered a positive and progressive immortality. If they do not, then they are considered eternally fallen.

[theist]

 

"Are you really in the material worldright now?" my answer is an unequivocal YES, I am. I am but a tinyspirit soul which has somehow arrived in this plane of misconception,and I am currently suffering the pangs of samsara.

 

But what is the material world? If you or I were Krishna conscious we would see everything is spiritual. The material world is a state of forgetfullness of Krishna. To say I am in the material world is the same as saying I am forgetful of Krishna.

 

You are transcendental to birth and death at ALL phases of your existence. "For the soul there is never birth nor does he ever die." We are not in samsara really but because we misidentify with the material body under the influence of ahankara we think we are and feel pains and pleasures. Just like in a dream we have pleasurable feelings and the next night we may feel great fear if we have a nightmare because we identify with the current dream character in the dream.

 

 

Anyway the only way we may come to understand this subject is by going there ourselves and perceive it in what Bhaktivinode calls sahaj-samadhi and not by internet discussions.

 

Hare Krishna

[theist]

 

It is stated very clearly thatsuddha-sattva will arise once we take shelter of nitya-siddha's,because suddha-sattva resides within the hearts of these eternalassociates.

 

Well here is another point of difference. I say suddha sattva resides within everyones heart and only needs to be reawakened by associating with a REALIZED nitya-siddha by the principle of resonace.

 

Anyway this is all too wordy for me these days. Too much thinking and too many words. Intellectual plane is not that satisfying.

 

I need something simpler to open my heart.

[bija]

I fully agree with you Theist. The spiritual realm is in the heart...so are our most Beloved's. Definately resonance.

[jeffster]

Yes, I agree, the spiritual realm is within the heart. However, as Gaudiya Vaishnavas we must have not only religious & spiritual sentiment, but we must have a comprehensive, cohesive and complete philosophy in order to clearly delineate these feelings of the heart. Remember, Prabhupad said that religion without philosophy is sentiment and philosophy without religion is speculation. This is undoubtedly difficult, but we must attempt it in order that we don't appear as just sentimental religionists to others.

 

One last comment - Theist, I would certainly agree that I am "transcendental to birth and death at ALL phases of your existence," but I have not yet REALIZED it, as I am only a practicising devotee, still encumbered by many misconceptions, not a fully realized maha-bhagavata. Yes, I am forgetful of Krishna. Practically speaking I cannot remember Him at all (smaranam) and I cannot even follow all the instructions that my guru maharaj gave his disciples. I am faulty and low-minded, but I want to get out of the muck, that is why I am associating here on this forum, hopefully in good faith. I hope that Ramana dasi weighs in on this thread.

Regards, jeffster/AMdas

[bija]

 

I am faulty and low-minded, but I want to get out of the muck, that is why I am associating here on this forum, hopefully in good faith. jeffster

Hopefully in good faith for me to Jeffster (in need of association, and reading material from others to grow). I never want to tear down anyone's faith by my contribution- therefore am really hesitant about entering this debate. And continually questioning myself if I am doing the right thing (in regards to this topic).

 

All that I am asking listeners, is to use great discernment when considering this 'subconscious nitya-siddha dreaming philosophy'. And always use discernment when reading my posts. As you say Jeff, I am not fully realized either and prone to make error.

 

Sorry. Every move I make commits offence (even if just on a subtle level). The most important thing is the other, and to never hurt them. That is a sadhana that must be cultivated more.

[jeffster]

Yes, Bija, we need considered and reasoned faith, not blind faith. Everything should be backed up by shastra and the teachings of our predecessor acharyas and finally validated through our own personal experience and the experience of others on the bhakti marg. No concoctions. If we find discrepancies, it is our duty to prompt each other until we reach the correct siddhanta.

jeffster/AM das

[Sarva gattah]

 

 

The impersonal Brahmajyoti is already a terrible fallen state worse than hell as far as a REAL Vaishnava is concerned!!

 

 

Srila Prabhupada – “Existence in the impersonal Brahman is also within the category of non-Krishna consciousness.

 

Those who are in the Brahman effulgence they are also in the fallen condition, so there is no question of falling down from a fallen condition.

When fall takes place, it means falling down from the non-fallen condition.

The non-fallen condition is Krishna consciousness.

 

to remain in the Brahman effulgence is also another phase of that fallen condition.

 

Just like in the Bhagavad-Gita it is stated that conditioned souls by their pious activities are elevated to the higher planetary system, but as soon as the stock of pious activities is finished he again comes down on the earthly planet.

 

Similarly those who are elevated beyond the planetary system to the Brahman effulgence, they are also prone to fall down as much as a living entity from the higher planetary system.

 

As such those who are thinking that they are liberated by being situated in Brahman effulgence are described in the Srimad-Bhagavatam as impurely intelligent.

 

In other words, they are actually not liberated, and because they are not actually liberated they again come down to the material world”

 

 

Special thanks to Theist prabhu for his devotional research that has clearly answered this thread.

 

We are already fallen being in the material creation and we become even further fallen if we perform severe penances to foolishly, selfishly and fearfully enter the Impersonal Brahmajyoti by yogic austerities, jnan and philosophical speculative analysis of the universe, because we become so pissed off with everything becoming so frustratingly temporary, and always ending in old age, disease, fear, pain, lonliness and death, then rebirth to again go through the same crap again.

To a devotee of Krishna, the impersonal Brahmajyoti 'liberation' is far worse than the HELLISH Worlds.

 

And some fools think we originate from the Impersonal Brahmajyoti or some clear sheet of dormant consciousness:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

 

[Sarva gattah]

 

Jeffster, my understanding is this:

 

Personally I will not accept that I am a nitya-siddha sleeping in some grove in Goloka dreaming of this ghastly horror. The siddha-deha is incorruptible in my opinion and the subconscious dream states are from mahat-tattva which is manifest for the corruptible.

 

Firstly, no-one lays down and sleeps and dreams they are in the mahat-tattva, its not like that, its all to do with ones consciousness, Krishna conscious or self centred consciousness?

And it’s also about the ‘eternal present’ in relation to the mahat-tattva’s past, present and future caused by ones own selfish DREAMS desires that expels one ‘sub-consciously from ‘Goloka’ our nitya-siddha body is always there because of the imperishable nature of Goloka – every living entity has their eternal ‘svarupa’ body there perpetually.

If one is Krishna conscious, they stay in sync with the ‘eternal present’ where not only does one stay lovingly serving Krishna, but also remain aware of their eternal ‘svarupa’ or ‘nitya-siddha’ body they serve Krishna as – this is an important realization that many find hard to realize

Actually there is absolutely no life in the mahat-tattva even though it is a real but temporary phenomenon (even in the mundane material heavenly planets, THOUGHT IS REALITY, this point many do not understand when the dream explanation is given, this is also why an actual jiva enters the mahat-tattva, its all real.

All life is projected from Vaikuntha or Goloka via a network of Vishnu-tattvas and empowered jiva-tattvas (demigods, 33,000000 to be precise).

Maha-Vishnu is the general manager of the mahat-tattva or material world who provides vessels to ALL the in-coming sub-conscious souls (baddha-jivas) who have originally been projected from their real eternal bodies in Vaikuntha etc.

The paradox is, on return it will be as if they never left because of that ‘eternal present’ You see, no-one falls asleep and dreams their material existence, that idea is a great mistake in understating this vet deep philosophy that is ultimately understood vis service and lovind devotion and never bt knowledge alone.

The mahat-tattva also is technically lifeless, it is simply a place created by Maha-Vishnu for the sub-conscious dreams of the living entities in who have CHOSEN to use their free will to forget Krishna and the body they serve Krishna as.

The living entity therefore, forgets their nitya-siddha body by choice and transmits their mistaken dreams of grandeur to the mahat-tattva where they are given a costume or vessel to live out their dreams by Maha-Vishnu and receive the sweet and bitter fruits of those dreams (karma) that traps them in His mahat-tattva creation.

 

The mahat-tattva is built for the rebellious souls just as the Government builds the prision house. Frankly we are really not advanced enough to comprehend thr very deep realizations of a universe that has no beginning or end, let alone understand

 

That’s why Prabhupada gave us the simple basics of chanting Hare Krishna to go Back Home Back to Godhead:pray:

[Beggar]

 

And some fools think we originate from the Impersonal Brahmajyoti or some clear sheet of dormant consciousness:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

The brahma-jyoti, the non-differentiated marginal plane, is the source of infinite jiva souls, atomic spiritual particles of non-differentiated character. The rays of the Lord's transcendental body are known as the brahma-jyoti, and a pencil of a ray of the brahma-jyoti is the jiva. The jiva soul is an atom in that effulgence, and the brahma-jyoti is a product of an infinite number of jiva atoms.

Generally, souls emanate from the brahma-jyoti which is living and growing. Within the brahma-jyoti, their equilibrium is somehow disturbed and movement begins. From non-differentiation, differentiation begins. From a plain sheet of uniform consciousness, individual conscious units grow. And because the jiva is conscious it is endowed with free will. So, from the marginal position they choose either the side of exploitation or the side of dedication.

 

 

...who is the most highly competent of all my godbrothers. This is B. R. Sridhara Maharaja, whom I consider to be even my siksa guru . If you are serious about the advancement of your spiritual life, I advise you to go to Sridhara Maharaja and I will feel that you are safe.You can also make arrangements for your other godbrothers to go there in the future. ( Ltr. Hrsikesa, January 1, 1969)

 

 

 

These souls are naturally located between the chit jagat, and mayik jagat. Those who chose to serve their God were protected from fall by the interference of the hladini attribute of the Supreme chit sakti. They have been admitted as eternal servants of the Deity in various ways.

 

===

- direct quote of words written IN ENGLISH by Thakura Bhaktivinoda in his book Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu, His Life and Precepts

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

nija-siddha-deha, nija-siddha-nama, nija-rupa sva-vasana

 

 

radha-krpa-bale, labhiba va kabe, krsna-prema-prakarana (3)

 

 

When will I obtain, by the power of Radha’s mercy, my own eternal spiritual body,

 

 

my own realized name and dress embellishing my real form? And when will I receive

 

 

initiation into the techniques of expressing divine love for Krsna?

 

 

I understand that I am using an English translation but it brings up the question: Is it something to be obtained (we were never there) or something to be realized (we are always there)? This illustrates that the argument over the origin of the soul is only over semantics. Yet our acaryas use semantics in a particular way and we should follow. When we become egrossed in such a fight, as over the origin of the soul (what came first the tal fruit falling or the crow landing) we are like dogs chasing our own tails. That is just foolishness. But how foolish is it to engage in Vaisnava aparadha over such an un-necessary thing?

[Sarva gattah]

Welcome back Beggar, I've missed you, Yeah good point, I certainly was not referring to Srila Sridar Maharaj and I think I will drop that 'plain sheet of consciousness' in the future. Instead I will just write we DO NOT originate from the impersonal Brahmajyoti as you already know I believe even though we have been there many times

 

Didn't mean to offend you or anyone else:pray:

[Beggar]

 

Welcome back Beggar, I've missed you, Yeah good point, I certainly was not referring to Srila Sridar Maharaj and I think I will drop that 'plain sheet of consciousness' in the future. Instead I will just write we DO NOT originate from the impersonal Brahmajyoti as you already know I believe even though we have been there many times

 

Didn't mean to offend you or anyone else:pray:

 

Yes, I am currently writing a screen play for a sitcom pilot called, Welcome back Beggar. How did you know?

As for offenses, if someone offends someone like myself they stand a 10% chance of being bitten by a mosquito. But if someone offends a great devotee, they may become a mosquito. So please be careful, you would not want to join me in mosquito land.

[Sarva gattah]

 

Firstly, no-one lays down and sleeps and dreams they are in the mahat-tattva, its not like that, its all to do with ones consciousness, Krishna conscious or self centred consciousness?

And it’s also about the ‘eternal present’ in relation to the mahat-tattva’s past, present and future caused by ones own selfish DREAMS desires that expels one ‘sub-consciously from ‘Goloka’ our nitya-siddha body is always there because of the imperishable nature of Goloka – every living entity has their eternal ‘svarupa’ body there perpetually.

If one is Krishna conscious, they stay in sync with the ‘eternal present’ where not only does one stay lovingly serving Krishna, but also remain aware of their eternal ‘svarupa’ or ‘nitya-siddha’ body they serve Krishna as – this is an important realization that many find hard to realize

Actually there is absolutely no life in the mahat-tattva even though it is a real but temporary phenomenon (even in the mundane material heavenly planets, THOUGHT IS REALITY, this point many do not understand when the dream explanation is given, this is also why an actual jiva enters the mahat-tattva, its all real.

All life is projected from Vaikuntha or Goloka via a network of Vishnu-tattvas and empowered jiva-tattvas (demigods, 33,000000 to be precise).

Maha-Vishnu is the general manager of the mahat-tattva or material world who provides vessels to ALL the in-coming sub-conscious souls (baddha-jivas) who have originally been projected from their real eternal bodies in Vaikuntha etc.

The paradox is, on return it will be as if they never left because of that ‘eternal present’ You see, no-one falls asleep and dreams their material existence, that idea is a great mistake in understating this vet deep philosophy that is ultimately understood vis service and lovind devotion and never bt knowledge alone.

The mahat-tattva also is technically lifeless, it is simply a place created by Maha-Vishnu for the sub-conscious dreams of the living entities in who have CHOSEN to use their free will to forget Krishna and the body they serve Krishna as.

The living entity therefore, forgets their nitya-siddha body by choice and transmits their mistaken dreams of grandeur to the mahat-tattva where they are given a costume or vessel to live out their dreams by Maha-Vishnu and receive the sweet and bitter fruits of those dreams (karma) that traps them in His mahat-tattva creation.

 

The mahat-tattva is built for the rebellious souls just as the Government builds the prision house. Frankly we are really not advanced enough to comprehend thr very deep realizations of a universe that has no beginning or end, let alone understand

 

That’s why Prabhupada gave us the simple basics of chanting Hare Krishna to go Back Home Back to Godhead:pray:

 

Quote:

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Srila Prabhupada – “Existence in the impersonal Brahman is also within the category of non-Krishna consciousness.

 

Those who are in the Brahman effulgence they are also in the fallen condition, so there is no question of falling down from a fallen condition.

When fall takes place, it means falling down from the non-fallen condition.

The non-fallen condition is Krishna consciousness.

 

to remain in the Brahman effulgence is also another phase of that fallen condition.

 

Just like in the Bhagavad-Gita it is stated that conditioned souls by their pious activities are elevated to the higher planetary system, but as soon as the stock of pious activities is finished he again comes down on the earthly planet.

 

Similarly those who are elevated beyond the planetary system to the Brahman effulgence, they are also prone to fall down as much as a living entity from the higher planetary system.

 

As such those who are thinking that they are liberated by being situated in Brahman effulgence are described in the Srimad-Bhagavatam as impurely intelligent.

 

In other words, they are actually not liberated, and because they are not actually liberated they again come down to the material world”

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We are already fallen being in the material creation and we become even further fallen if we perform severe penances to foolishly, selfishly and fearfully enter the Impersonal Brahmajyoti by yogic austerities, jnan and philosophical speculative analysis of the universe, because we become so pissed off with everything becoming so frustratingly temporary, and always ending in old age, disease, fear, pain, lonliness and death, then rebirth to again go through the same crap again.

 

To a devotee of Krishna, the impersonal Brahmajyoti 'liberation' is far worse than the HELLISH Worlds.

 

[Sarva gattah]

In Srimad Bhagavatam, purport of 3.26.7 Srila Prabhupada states -

Srila Prabhupada – “Whatever the material energy dictates, the conditioned soul does. He has no responsibility. He is simply the witness of the actions, he is forced to act that way due to his offence in his eternal relationship with Krsna.”

And what is that original offence?

The answer is giving up the Lord’s service.

In Srimad Bhagavatam, 5.14.1, Prabhupada states in the purport -

Srila Prabhupada – “When the pure soul wants to give up the Lord’s service to enjoy the material world, Krsna certainly gives him a chance to enter the material world.”

In Tokyo on April 20, 1972 Prabhupada stated –

Srila Prabhupada – “He has fallen means he has given up the service of Krsna.”

Giving up the service to Sri Krsna is due to freewill which leads to more forgetfulness due to the choices one makes due to that free will.

There are other aspects of freewill, but giving up service means giving up our love to Krsna, or we want to serve in another way that is not compatible in the spiritual world.

Krsna does not force you to love Him. You have to desire it willingly and that is the topmost use of freewill, this is what freewill means, to voluntarily serve Krsna. The living entity is given that ‘choice’ because without it, there is no meaning to individuality or being a marginal living being.

The other angle is that by misusing our freewill we make the wrong decision and Maya immediately covers us AFTER the living entity chooses to manufacture their existence without Krishna.

Freewill is perfect and imperfect and yes it is an inconceivable truth (Acintya Tattva) It is perfect in the aspect of allowing one to freely choose to endlessly increasingly serve and it is imperfect and not suitable for Goloka when we choose to ignore Krsna. This is one reason why the Lord creates the Mahat-tattva (material creation)

The perfect aspect of this imperfection of the jiva is that you can go back to serve Krsna again. Srimad Bhagavatam 6.11.25 confirms this -

“Oh my Lord, O Supreme Personality of Godhead, will I again be able to be a servant of Your eternal servants who find shelter at Your lotus feet? Oh Lord of my life, may I again become their servant so that my mind may always engage in the loving service of Your Lordship.”

Twice Srila Prabhupada uses the word bhuyah (again), stressing the point.

When the jivas misuse freewill in Goloka, Vaikuntha it is not like a case of newly transformed envious jivas hanging around. They are instantly covered and ousted from the Lord’s realm.

Bhaktisiddhanta Thakura’s purport to text 44 of Brahma Samhita states –

“When he forgets his service of Krsna he is at once deflected by the attracting power of Maya in this world.”

On a morning walk in Vrndavana, 9-13-75 Prabhupada said: “He has given you little freedom’ you can use it. Yathecchasi tathaa kuru, Krsna says in Gita (18.63), ‘Whatever you like you do.”

Some devotees seem to think that this discussion of the “Fall, no fall of the Jiva” started after Prabhupada’s disappearance but that is not a fact.

In the early 1972, Madhudvisa had to deal with the issue in Australia while travelling around preaching on a Double Decker travelling Temple that I was also personally on and the Crow and Tal Fruit Logic letter is a result of that exchange with devotees who thought we came from the Brahmajyoti. The letter has typed parts, Prabhupada also added his own handwritten notes, and he signed the letter by hand. Madhudvisa has the letter.

In the early 1970’s, Siddhasvarupananda Swami was preaching that the jivas came from the Brahmajyoti and Srila Prabhupada told him not to preach that in his temples.

In a letter to Caturbhuja Dasa, L.A., 5-9-73, Prabhupada wrote him -

Srila Prabhupada – “Your last question ‘How is the soul degraded (by lust, anger and greed) when it is transcendental to the body?

Srila Prabhupada – “Doesn’t that imply that the soul has changed? ‘No. The soul never changes, but due to his tinyness, he may become forgetful of his relationship with Krsna”.

Srila Prabhupada – “The spiritual quality of the spiritual spark has not changed but he has forgotten his spiritual nature, bewildered by the imperfect desire to become equal or greater than Krsna.”

Most of the verses from Brahma Vaivarta Purana are showing how a jiva can go to Vaikuntha or Goloka but unless one’s devotion is FULLY developed he will fall back to this material world due to lack of chit (knowledge) strength.

Nevertheless, eventually he/she will return and stay permanently in Vaikuntha/Goloka, regaining his/hers authentic svarupa bodily identity that is actually permanently there in Goloka even if one forgets this fact.

Such comments seem inconceivable, but are they? Actually they are easily understood when one ‘realizes, by dent of bhakti, what the eternal present actually means’. In other words, our perpetual body is permanently locked, protected, and secured in the eternal present because there is no portal of past or future for it to ever leave. Therefore if there id fall down, it is only consciously via ones thoughts, imaginings and dreams, never as ones original body.

Now that wasn’t too difficult to understand was it?

Those verses in shastra that state that one does not fall from Vaikuntha are referring either to jivas who fell originally and are now reinstated, and generally won’t fall again or to those jivas who never fell to begin with.

Bhaktisiddhanta Thakur clarifies the point in Sri Caitanya’s Teachings, p. 101

“The position of the jiva IS a part of the tatastha-sakti that can enjoy, cease to enjoy, and go back to his original position”.

And Srila Prabhupada says in a similar vein on a morning walk:

Paramahamsa - So we can come to the spiritual world and return?

Prabhupada - Yes.

Paramahamsa - Falldown?

Prabhupada - Yes…. He goes out of his free will; again comes out, again goes. Like that. (Cheviot Hills Golf Course-5-13-73, L.A.)

Srila Prabhupada stressed the verse: Mahaajano yena gatah sa panthaa - one must follow in the footsteps of the Mahajanas

Mahabhaarata, Vana Parva, 313.117. And who is speaking these verses from Brahma Vaivarta Purana?

They happen to be Mahajanas.

Narayana Rsi is talking to Narada Rsi about what Yamaraj spoke to Savitri (Mother of the vedas). Brahma also joins in later. So, their statements carry weight.

So, for our Brahma-Vadi friends (no fall avedis) what will they do now? Maybe demonise these verses as Apa siddhantic or of the Kuyogi Sampradaya?

Or belittle the slokas as simply words to encourage the pious to do Punyas?

Or try to emphasize that these verses are fanciful imagination? Then better yet they may try to minimize these verses as secondary evidence or not authentic or as interpolations? Any way you want to cut it, there is disagreement on this point and the Patanam Slokas, will stand their ground, and support Srila Prabhupada that jivas can fall (patanam) from Vaikuntha/Goloka.

So how can apparently contradictory statements be reconciled? Jiva Goswami explains in his Krsna Sandarbha 152.9 that Vedanta Sutra states –

“If there are two contradictory statements in scripture, the first statement should be interpreted so that it does not contradict the later statement.”

So the way to employ this understanding of Jiva Goswami means that for us, the Fallvadis (as the Brahmavadis call us) we accept both ideas i.e. coming from Brahman and coming from Vaikuntha/Goloka.

The jivas coming from Brahman are those jivas who did not get liberated in Brahma’s lifetime and entered the body of Maha-Vishnu. So, when they reappear when Maha-Vishnu begins to expand universes again that occurrence is an origin because it is over a time period of trillions and trillions of years, which is like eternity.

That origin is what the Upanishads describe.

We accept the understanding that the jivas that have left their service in Vaikuntha/Goloka, due to free will, come here to the material world.

In all of this discussion one important point to understand is that to Krsna, in Krsna’s transcendental time, or reckoning, we are here in this material world for one or two seconds (NOT EVEN THAT BECAUSE NOTHING IS SEEN AS MISSING WITHIN THE ‘ETERNAL PRESENT)’.

How is this?

Again, in Brahma Vaivarta Purana, Krsna Janma Khanda, chapter 25, verse 98-99 it is stated that

“ Brahma dies when Krsna winks”.

So, if a jiva stays in a universe for the life of Lord Brahma, which is trillions of years, and then goes back to Goloka, then in Goloka, it is only an insignificant moment.

So, in real Transcendental Time (The eternal present that has no past and future as we understand it in the material perishable world) we are here for a very, very short time.

And to put the icing on the cake we will let Srila Prabhupada have the last word on the topic quoting Srimad Bhagavatam.

According to Jiva Goswami in the Tattva Sandarbha the Srimad Bhagavatam is the highest sastra and the most perfect of all evidence.

So, lets hear the verse, as a pure devotee understands it.

In Bhagavad Gita 6.47 Srila Prabhupada states in the purport:

Srila Prabhupada – “Every living entity is of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and thus every living entity is intended to serve the Supreme Lord by his own constitution. Failing to do this, he falls down.

The Bhagavatam (11.5.3) confirms this as follows:

Srila Prabhupada – “Anyone who does not render service and neglects his duty unto the primeval lord, who is the source of all living entities will certainly fall down from his constitutional position.”

A Bhagavad-Gita lecture that was given by Srila Prabhupada on 2-21-69, in L.A. (Collected Lectures on Bhagavad-Gita As It Is, Volume 5, pp. 6-7),

Srila Prabhupada quotes the same Bhagavatam verse 11.5.3. He then gives this commentary, which throws even more light on it making it clearer –

Srila Prabhupada – “The Bhagavat says that we are all parts and parcels of the Supreme. If we do not serve the Supreme, then we fall down from our specified place. What is that?

Srila Prabhupada – “If the part and parcel cannot render service regularly, that means it is painful. So any person who is not rendering service to the Supreme Lord, he’s simply giving pain to the Supreme Lord.

Srila Prabhupada – “He’s simply giving trouble. Therefore, he has to suffer…. The same example, Sthanad bhrastah patanty adhah. And as soon as one thing is very painful, just like the government keeps all these painful citizens into a prison house. Collect together. ‘You live here, you are nonsense, you criminals live here. Don’t live in the open state.’

Srila Prabhupada – “Similarly, all these criminals who have violated the laws of God, who have simply given pain to the Lord, they are put in this material world.

Srila Prabhupada – “And, sthanad bhrastah, he falls down from the specified place….So we have fallen down. Being against the principles of God consciousness, we are fallen down. So if we want to revive our original position, we must be placed again in that service attitude.

Srila Prabhupada – “The best thing is to revive our original Krsna consciousness and be engaged in the service of the Lord. That is the natural life and that is possible in the spiritual sky or the Goloka Vrndavana.”

At the end of the lecture a question was asked: “Why are you teaching about Krsna Consciousness?

Srila Prabhupada – “Because you have forgotten the service of Radha and Krsna, therefore you have become the servant of Maya.’”

So, in conclusion the Mahajanas have talked about agatya patanam, falling from Vaikuntha/Goloka. Vyasadeva, who compiled the Puranas, has presented slokas about patanam (falldown)

So has Bhaktivinode Thakura and Bhaktisiddhanta Thakura mentioned fall and no fall of the jiva. Srila Prabhupada has quoted Srimad Bhagavatam to stress the point about freewill causing the jiva to fall, so one cannot say that ISKCON devotees are the only ones who have spoken of the fall of the jiva from Vaikuntha and Goloka.

[bija]

What I find kinda gross in these conversations is when the word brahmajyoti is used in a subtle derogatory way to express some views. Srila BR Sridhara Maharaja never spoke of the brahmajyoti in such gross ways because he knew that the jyoti was the beautiful glowing effulgence of Goloka (Krsna's body).

 

You are right Beggar, it is just semantics, and not worth stamping on even the little jiva's over.

 

Sorry Sarva!

 

I was sitting up last night and thinking about this conversation. And I thought deeply.. Maybe Sarva your own encounter with God is valid, maybe mine is too. And maybe that is a very personal encounter and grace of God...that will be explained to all in due course. The Lord has brought us together for a reason...and for those who love him all good things work together.

 

Are we going up, are we going down, are we going here, are we going there. These things are a great mystery in the process of awakening and self realization (if one knows the depth of his mind).

 

So please forgive me for my insensitivity (toward your spiritual life)...the heart is the field of love.

 

I think aparadha occurs when we stamp on that sacred field. So I will end posting on this subject here. Thanks for your patience.

 

Cheers.

[Sarva gattah]

 

What I find kinda gross in these conversations is when the word brahmajyoti is used in a subtle derogatory way to express some views. Srila BR Sridhara Maharaja never spoke of the brahmajyoti in such gross ways because he knew that the jyoti was the beautiful glowing effulgence of Goloka (Krsna's body)..

 

Yes true, but the trees and the grass and the animal kingdom is also beautiful it seems , but how did all those souls attain the 'beauty' of nature? Do you get my point, it is beauty but under it all is a violent struggle for existance

 

The IMPERSONAL Brahmajyoti is the same, very beautiful but also vibrating with dormant inactive lost souls

Quote:

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>Srila Prabhupada – “Those who are elevated beyond the planetary system to the Brahman effulgence, they are also prone to fall down as much as a living entity from the higher planetary system.Letter to Revatinandana dasa Los Angeles 13 June, 1970

70-06-13

 

Srila Prabhupada – “As such those who are thinking that they are liberated by being situated in Brahman effulgence are described in the Srimad-Bhagavatam as impurely intelligent. In other words, they are actually not liberated, and because they are not actually liberated they again come down to the material world”Letter to Revatinandana dasa Los Angeles 13 June, 1970</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

[bija]

 

Srila Prabhupada – “Those who are elevated beyond the planetary system to the Brahman effulgence, they are also prone to fall down as much as a living entity from the higher planetary system.Letter to Revatinandana dasa Los Angeles 13 June, 1970

70-06-13

Yes Sarva, the plain facts though are that we Gaudiya's do not have such an aspiration as impersonal merging...because we relish the souls potency and potential to manifest spiritual lila (from a vaisnava transcendent view-point, rather than anthropomorphic vision).

 

And that is great and true, even if we do consider the instruction of Srila BR Sridhara Maharaja as having much benefit for sadhana and bhajan (internal vision). Siksa is really for bhajan, and bhajan is the way of manifesting that lila in the heart.

 

And yes, I do understand your point. You see we are not identifying as impersonal, we have moved to super-soul realization and further>>> to Bhagavan realization. All these three aspects make up a complete Person.

 

If the pencil ray (spark) was fully satisfied in a neutral state, it would never have chosen to move outward. But the potency of spirit craves deep rasa founded in bhava. In an indirect way that is how me mistakenly came to this world (of nescience), because of that potency inherent. Now we are here we have learnt that hladhini is the shelter.

 

 

 

All Glories, supreme victory and all-prevailing triumph to Shri Krishna Sankirtana, the ecstatic and loud chanting of the supreme glories of the Holy Names (Hare, Krishna, Radha, Gauranga, Nityananda etc.), Forms, Pastimes, Qualities, Abodes and Associates of the Supreme Absolute Truth Lord Shri Krishna performed by following in the footsteps of the great Associates of the Lord. Shri Krishna Sankirtana is the summit of all spiritual practices and is characteristized by the attainment of the following seven superexcellent and matchless results:

 

 

...(2) Bhava maha davagni nirvapana: The great ambrosial shower of Shri Krishna Sankirtana snuffs out, quenches, extinguishes and fully terminates forever the blazing, searing and all-immolating gigantic forest fire of Bhava (nescience) which occurs due to the most terrorizing, horrifying and infinitely painful embodiment and transmigration of the spirit soul in the 8.4 million bodily species of life via the ghastly and repeated cycle of birth, old age, disease and death in this material creation. This forest fire of material existence which leads to the unlimited suffering of the souls for trillions of lives in this material creation but which is ended by Shri Krishna Sankirtana, was willingly ignited by the souls themselves from time immemorial due to misuse of their minute independence given to them by the Lord. This is the stage or anartha nivritti (or kleshaghni) or destruction of the unwanted things in the heart by the sheer and exclusive potency and power of Shri Krishna Sankirtana...

[theist]

 

Hello Theist,

Hari Bol !! The main problem with using an analogy, like where are youwhen dreaming at night ?, is that an analogy is only meant to point tothe reality, it isn't necessarily the reality itself. But to keep thissimple and answer your question, "Are you really in the material worldright now?" my answer is an unequivocal YES, I am. I am but a tinyspirit soul which has somehow arrived in this plane of misconception,and I am currently suffering the pangs of samsara. I am a nitya-baddha,

 

We understand the limitations of all analogies but we still use them. The thing is an analogy is deemed good when it closely resembles the reality it is pointing to.

 

Why do you think the dream analogy has been so often used by Srila Prabhupada? I think because it is a good one.

 

So you say you are in the material world. And your original question was can a soul be in two places at the same time. So by saying you are now in the material world I take it you consider yourself gone from the spiritual world?

 

You also say "somehow" you are in material world which means you are not sure how.

 

My position is that you are in the material world and also in the spiritual world. This sounds contradictory until you understand that the spiritual world is free from the illusory sense of time namely past present and future.

 

The time in the spiritual world in always Now.

 

We have entered the material world by the same way we enter a false body when day dreaming or night dreaming...by projection of consciousness into that dream identity (ahankara).

 

And what is the material world if not a dream world? And how does one enter a dream world if not by dreaming oneself in?

 

And an important step in the awakening process is to become a lucid dreamer both in the sleeping state and the waking state. That we can gointo later but the first thing is to fully admit that we are dreaming and the dreamer (our true self) exists apart from the dream scenario.

 

Now the only places that are beyond the dream worlds of Maha-vishnu are the impersonal brahman and the Vaikuntha spheres. So we must be dreaming (projecting our consciousness) from one of those two "places".

 

Either are spiritual platforms therefore even though we are in the material world working through our maya bodies we have we are also still base in the spiritual world simulataneously.

 

Again, drop (at least theorhetically) the concept of material time which can't be applied here.

[suchandra]

 

We understand the limitations of all analogies but we still use them. The thing is an analogy is deemed good when it closely resembles the reality it is pointing to.

 

Why do you think the dream analogy has been so often used by Srila Prabhupada? I think because it is a good one.

 

So you say you are in the material world. And your original question was can a soul be in two places at the same time. So by saying you are now in the material world I take it you consider yourself gone from the spiritual world?

 

You also say "somehow" you are in material world which means you are not sure how.

 

My position is that you are in the material world and also in the spiritual world. This sounds contradictory until you understand that the spiritual world is free from the illusory sense of time namely past present and future.

 

The time in the spiritual world in always Now.

 

We have entered the material world by the same way we enter a false body when day dreaming or night dreaming...by projection of consciousness into that dream identity (ahankara).

 

And what is the material world if not a dream world? And how does one enter a dream world if not by dreaming oneself in?

 

And an important step in the awakening process is to become a lucid dreamer both in the sleeping state and the waking state. That we can gointo later but the first thing is to fully admit that we are dreaming and the dreamer (our true self) exists apart from the dream scenario.

 

Now the only places that are beyond the dream worlds of Maha-vishnu are the impersonal brahman and the Vaikuntha spheres. So we must be dreaming (projecting our consciousness) from one of those two "places".

 

Either are spiritual platforms therefore even though we are in the material world working through our maya bodies we have we are also still base in the spiritual world simulataneously.

 

Again, drop (at least theorhetically) the concept of material time which can't be applied here.

Very good points and finally all this makes perfect sense. Evolution of desire - what is not easy to understand is that everything happens due individual desiring, the jivas want to act out their material feelings. But because there are so many lifetimes we lose the context, how someone gradually developed such and such situation? We only see the result but not his 1000 lifetimes before who gradually brought him to that state. This would be an interesting topic for a movie, to depict the evolution of desire during the period of one thousand lifetimes.

[jeffster]

Sorry, theist, I don't buy your argument at all. But I would preface my comments by saying that no amount of semantics can do either of us any good in understanding this. However, yeah verily, I AM in the material world, and all my material sheathes of body, senses, mind, intelligence and false ego are being powered by my soul, which resides somewhere inside of my physical body. The whole package is right here in the material world. When my soul leaves the body, I pass into another body. To say that we are also in the spiritual world at the same time is tantamount to saying that we have two existences, or even two souls. We do not. I am but one soul, therefore I cannot have two existences. If I am in one sphere, I cannot simultaneously be in another. However, at such time that I ever become fully realized and pass away from my material body in full knowledge of and love for the Personality of Godhead, I will be appear in the Godhead in my siddha-deha, just as stated in my post quoting from Srila Sridhara Maharaj's Loving Search for the Lost Servant. We are soul, therefore wherever we sojourn, whether it be within the tripod-vibhuti or ekapod-vibhuti, our soul accompanies us, or rather we accompany our soul. We may be covered over by material sheathes or we may appear in our native glory in our full siddha-deha, but in either case, we are soul, but one soul, anu-atma jiva-tattva. If you like analogies, here is one that I have thought of for years but never told anyone. In my material life, I am somewhat of a motorhead, and I like vehicles with manual transmissions, because I enjoy shifting. This is my big maya !! But anyway, for the analogy: Let's say the entire cosmos, material and spiritual, is represented by a 4 speed transmission. In the material world we use the first three gears: first gear represents tamas, the mode of ignorance; second gear represents rajas, the mode of passion; third gear represents sattva, the mode of goodness. So the best we can do within the entire material cosmos is third gear, the mode of goodness, which may gain us entry to the heavenly planets, which as we know are temporary. Unless we surrender to the Personality of Godhead, we'll be stuck in the lower gears. But if we surrender completely,and traverse the entire bhakti-marg, we shift into overdrive and drive home, back to Godhead. In the material world, we suffer the illusion of suffering or enjoyment while encased here. I said we suffer the illusion, but our suffering of it is real. The suffering drives us to want to get free from it through purification. As Bija and I mentioned earlier, this world is REAL, although temporary, and therefore our sojourn here is real, also, although temporary. Here is another analogy, and again, it is is my own, so take it for what it is worth to you: Let's say that the soul is playing with a balloon. The balloon represents material suffering and enjoyment. The soul has become attached to this balloon, and is carrying it around for countless births. The balloon has become a big burden and the soul finally realizes that he doesn't need it. At first the soul doesn't know how to get rid of the balloon. He tries gymnastics, weight loss diets, hatha yoga, then he becomes a jnani, then a yogi and finally a bhakta. Then he realizes that all he has to do is pop the balloon. He pops it !! Popping it represents getting purified, or at least beginning to renounce his material attachment, while become attached to Krishna. After popping the balloon he begins to make phenomenal spiritual advancement and finally goes back to Godhead !! Well, its just an analogy, so it isn't perfect, is it ? Don't you see that ? No analogy can perfectly represent the conception it is attempting to represent. Furthermore, I would suggest that this is all common sense, not even high siddhanta, but I notice that there is very little common sense left in the modern world. I think that you could safely that say that our internment within the confines of matter is like a dream, but again this is only an analogy and may not 100% accurately represent the entire reality of the subject. Again, our words, by their very nature, are limited. Also, talking about the eternal NOW sounds a little too new agey for my taste, sort of like something Ram Dass would say in his tome Be Here Now, and even in his more recent jibberish. I have read some of it. That man was and still is contaminated with mayavada conception. He has just an inkling of Ram bhakta in him, but he is very contaminated. I don't want to go down his path. As I said in a previous post, it doesn't matter so much where we have been as where we are headed, so I will also refrain from posting further on this subject, as I begin to find it tedious. Plus it is 00:45 here, so time to sign off. Be well. Hare Krishna. I pray that you don't take this as a personal assault; I assure you it is not. I love reading your posts. We just disagree on this issue.

Regards, Jeffster/AMdas

[Sarva gattah]

 

Sorry, theist, I don't buy your argument at all. To say that we are also in the spiritual world at the same time is tantamount to saying that we have two existences, or even two souls. We do not. I am but one soul, therefore I cannot have two existences. If I am in one sphere, I cannot simultaneously be in another.

 

You are right, however it is not a division of Consciousness, but rather it is a division of time, it appears you are in two places simultaneously because of the time difference and not your individual consciousness.

 

The eternal present’ is always imperishable, it is always their even if you fall out of sync with Goloka due to self generated desires that immediately puts you in the realm of past, present and future.

The other night I dreamed a war started between India and Pakistan and somehow it went nuclear, I was in Delhi and a bomb airburst above the city and everything was burning including my body, it was so real and I just called out Krishna’s name and woke up in my bed realizing it was just a dream, that seemed so, so real.

 

There I was sleeping in my bed and being vaporized in Delhi at the same time, yes, time. This is a very mundane example to point out you can be in two places simultaneously

 

It is not a division of Consciousness, but rather it is a division of time, it appears you are in two places simultaneously because of the time difference and not your individual consciousness.

[suchandra]

 

Sorry, theist, I don't buy your argument at all.

Let's say you sleep in your bed and you dream while sleeping. Within that dream you act as a driving with your car. Aren't there two of you, one lying on the bed and sleeping, the other busy driving a car within a dream. Sometimes even so busy within a dream that you wake up. What more prove do you need?

[Sarva gattah]

 

We understand the limitations of all analogies but we still use them. The thing is an analogy is deemed good when it closely resembles the reality it is pointing to.

 

Why do you think the dream analogy has been so often used by Srila Prabhupada? I think because it is a good one.

 

So you say you are in the material world. And your original question was can a soul be in two places at the same time. So by saying you are now in the material world I take it you consider yourself gone from the spiritual world?

 

You also say "somehow" you are in material world which means you are not sure how.

 

My position is that you are in the material world and also in the spiritual world. This sounds contradictory until you understand that the spiritual world is free from the illusory sense of time namely past present and future.

 

The time in the spiritual world in always Now.

 

We have entered the material world by the same way we enter a false body when day dreaming or night dreaming...by projection of consciousness into that dream identity (ahankara).

 

And what is the material world if not a dream world? And how does one enter a dream world if not by dreaming oneself in?

 

And an important step in the awakening process is to become a lucid dreamer both in the sleeping state and the waking state. That we can gointo later but the first thing is to fully admit that we are dreaming and the dreamer (our true self) exists apart from the dream scenario.

 

Now the only places that are beyond the dream worlds of Maha-vishnu are the impersonal brahman and the Vaikuntha spheres. So we must be dreaming (projecting our consciousness) from one of those two "places".

 

Either are spiritual platforms therefore even though we are in the material world working through our maya bodies we have we are also still base in the spiritual world simulataneously.

 

Again, drop (at least theorhetically) the concept of material time which can't be applied here.

 

Very well explained theist. Actually all living entities are a pure devotee but have chose to forget that long, long, long, long, long, long ago.

We have allowed ourselves to be covered by the cloud of selfish desires that blocks out our memory of who Krishna is and who we really are as our ‘svarupa’ body".

Jeffster try to understand what Prabhupada is telling us.

Srila Prabhupada- "You are already in the spiritual sky, but you are simply covered. Just like the sun is already there. You are also already there"London July 30, 1971

Srila Prabhupada- "So actually we are always in the spiritual world. But when you forget Krishna by the cloud of illusion, that is material. Try to understand".London July 30, 1971

Srila Prabhupada- "Actually we are not fallen therefore, at any moment we can revive our Krishna consciousness. As soon as we understand that, "I have nothing to do with this mundane world, I am simply Krishna's servant. Eternal servant. That's all". In a Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture given in London, on July 30, 1971

Srila Prabhupada - "You are liberated. You are liberated. Simply just a cloud has covered you. Drive away the cloud. There is no question that you were ever. You are ever-liberated. That, the sky is always spiritual, but it is sometimes overcrowded with cloud, this Maya. This is called Maya"an Francisco, February 18, 1967)

Srila Prabhupada - "Actually, you are not conditioned (nitya-baddha). You are thinking. Just like in the dream you are thinking that tiger is eating you. You were never eaten by tiger. There is no tiger. So we have to get out of this dream". (Lecture on Sri Caitanya-Caritamrita, Adi-lila 7.108--San Francisco, February 18, 1967)

Srila Prabhupada - "This material creation is the spirit soul's dream, all existence in this world is the dream of Mahā-Viṣṇu. The real, factual platform is the spiritual world, but when the spirit soul wants to imitate the Supreme Personality of Godhead, he is put into this dreamland of material creation.4.29.83.