Can one fall from the brahmajyoti?

[Beggar]

 

Why do you think the dream analogy has been so often used by Srila Prabhupada? I think because it is a good one.

 

Srila Prabhupada also uses this analogy because it has been given by all the previous acaryas. In fact if you do the research we will find that it is accepted by all acaryas including those in the impersonal branch of Vedantic thought. One may say that this "dreaming" of the jiva soul is only an analogy and that is true. But it is not that "dreaming" of the jiva soul is less powerful than the human jivas sleeping experience. It is actually much, much more powerful. The problem with the "the jivas fall from Goloka" and the "the jivas are always in Goloka" constructs is not that there is a lack of truth behind them. There is plenty of truth there, but the problem lies in the construction of the presentation. The previous acaryas simply do not present these ideas in the manner in which it is presently being given both in the mainstream Iskcon and those who follow Gaura Gopal (Sarva Gattah). If we do not consider that ALL sides of the apparent duality in this issue of the origin of the jiva soul can have logical holes poked in their aguments, then we are hiding our heads in the sand of our own provincial sectareanism of false pride. This is why there is so much contentiousness over this issue. Tarko pratisthanat, ultimately these things cannot be established by logic. Of course if we delight in going around in endless circles, so be it. The higher truth is that all these ideas such, as, 'the soul originates" or "is eternal and has no origin" which appear contradictory are harmonized in Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu's conception of acintya bheda (a)bheda tattva, simultaneous oneness and difference.

[Sarva gattah]

Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Thakur-“The position of the jiva IS a part of the tatastha-sakti that can enjoy, cease to enjoy, and go back to his original position”. Sri Caitanya’s Teachings, p. 101

Srila Prabhupada –“Every living entity is of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and thus every living entity is intended to serve the Supreme Lord by his own constitution. Failing to do this, he falls down. Bhagavad Gita 6.47

 

Srila Prabhupada – “Anyone who does not render service and neglects his duty unto the primeval lord, who is the source of all living entities will certainly fall down from his constitutional position.” Bhagavatam (11.5.3)

 

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And Srila Prabhupada says in a similar vein on a morning walk:

 

Paramahamsa - So we can come to the spiritual world and return?

Prabhupada - Yes.

Paramahamsa - Falldown?

Prabhupada - Yes…. He goes out of his free will; again comes out, again goes. Like that. (Cheviot Hills Golf Course-5-13-73, L.A.)

Srila Prabhupada stressed the verse: Mahaajano yena gatah sa panthaa - one must follow in the footsteps of the Mahajanas

Mahabhaarata, Vana Parva, 313.117. And who is speaking these verses from Brahma Vaivarta Purana?

They happen to be Mahajanas.

So, in conclusion the Mahajanas have talked about agatya patanam, falling from Vaikuntha/Goloka. Vyasadeva, who compiled the Puranas, has presented slokas about patanam (falldown)

So has Bhaktivinode Thakura and Bhaktisiddhanta Thakura mentioned fall and no fall of the jiva.

Srila Prabhupada has quoted Srimad Bhagavatam to stress the point about freewill causing the jiva to fall, so one cannot say that ISKCON devotees are the only ones who have spoken of the fall of the jiva from Vaikuntha and Goloka.

 

[jeffster]

I said I was not going to post, but I must have what Beggar is calling "provincial sectarianism of false pride." Yes, all these logical arguments are limited because ultimately logic cannot carry the day, only our heartfelt devotion can do so. So it is ultimately useless to keep at this.

But I can't restrain myself from another shot at this. As I mentioned, it is fair to say that material misconception is like a dream. As Beggar pointed out, all the predecessor acharyas and even the impersonalists use this analogy. But, as I have already pointed out, analogies only hint at truth, they are not directly the truth of the issue itself. They are meant only to be representational, not directly tangible. I fully understand this dream analogy, and it is fine as far as it goes, so you good folk don't have to keep attempting to explain it to me. My point is only that material misconception is LIKE a dream, but that is as far as the analogy can go. In actuality, material misconception is not exactly a dream, it is a temporary reality, if I may take the liberty of calling it that. It is ultimately an illusion, but as we know, illusions are taken as reality by those who are illusioned.

In my post # 22, I quoted from Srila Sridhara Maharaj's Loving Search for the Lost Servant. Please re-read that section of the post. There Krishna says "You left me..." He doesn't say "I found you in the grove having a nightmare, so I woke you up." That's good enough for me. Hare Krishna.

jeffster/AM das

[Sarva gattah]

 

I said I was not going to post, but I must have what Beggar is calling "provincial sectarianism of false pride." Yes, all these logical arguments are limited because ultimately logic cannot carry the day, only our heartfelt devotion can do so. So it is ultimately useless to keep at this.

 

When Prabhupada came to the West (America) in 1965, he was also told by some Godbrothers that it was useless preaching to the meathead Americans, but Prabhupada never gave up because he new the Westerners would gradually understand.

Yes to some Prabhupada’s teachings was useless because they never really wanted to know the truth in the first place however, enough followed Prabhupada to open a Temple in every major city on the planet - jai SRILA PRABHUPADA who initiated only 4,400 disciples in the short 11 years he was with us.

[theist]

 

It is not a division ofConsciousness, but rather it is a division of time, it appears you arein two places simultaneously because of the time difference and notyour individual consciousness.

 

 

Exactly!!!

[jeffster]

Yes, Sarva, I followed Prabhupad, also, and I consider that I still do. But that doesn't prevent me from attempting to discern to an ever higher degree the truth that Prabhupad and other acharyas like Srila Sridhara Maharaj taught us. I didn't even suggest that Prabhupad's teachings are useless, as your post # 54 is suggesting; I suggested only that it is useless arguing about this. Reasoned faith, not blind faith. With all due respect to your good self, sir, you seem to be bordering on taking personal affront and making subtle personal attacks if your posts aren't accepted completely. I like to debate, but I like to debate unemotionally. If we let our mundane emotions come into play, it demonstrates that we have some attachment to the positions we have taken, and that we are becoming defensive. "You take the high road and I'll take the low road, and I'll meet you back in Killarney." - old Irish song.

Regards, Jeffster/AM das

[Sarva gattah]

 

Yes, Sarva, I followed Prabhupad, also, and I consider that I still do. But that doesn't prevent me from attempting to discern to an ever higher degree the truth that Prabhupad and other acharyas like Srila Sridhara Maharaj taught us.

 

I didn't even suggest that Prabhupad's teachings are useless, as your post # 54 is suggesting; I suggested only that it is useless arguing about this. Reasoned faith, not blind faith. With all due respect to your good self, sir, you seem to be bordering on taking personal affront and making subtle personal attacks if your posts aren't accepted completely.

 

I like to debate, but I like to debate unemotionally. If we let our mundane emotions come into play, it demonstrates that we have some attachment to the positions we have taken, and that we are becoming defensive. "You take the high road and I'll take the low road, and I'll meet you back in Killarney." - old Irish song.

Regards, Jeffster/AM das

 

Very interesting wording and prose that has made me think more clearly, my point was only trying to say, 'it is not a useless endeavour attempting to understand our origins serving Krishna' - to a point and it is that point you are making.

 

We can only realize these things individually in our hearts through bhakti and not through jnan, although discussion nourishes and quenches our spiritual thirst.

Actually you write well but in all humility, can you please make your posts into paragraphs - it’s just easier for 4-eyed persons like myself to read.

Hare Krishna, your posts are inspiring.

[bija]

 

The higher truth is that all these ideas such, as, 'the soul originates" or "is eternal and has no origin" which appear contradictory are harmonized in Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu's conception of acintya bheda (a)bheda tattva, simultaneous oneness and difference. by beggar

That's it. Even in the concept of Absolute Truth it is inconceivable how form and no-form can co-exist in harmony. If anyone of us has had mystical encounter we will know such things...truly inconceivable...is the origin of the soul.

 

And by the way Jeffster the soul can manifest two bodies...one in Goloka-Vrindavan and one in Goloka-Navadwipa for example. The soul can experience whatever God sanctions.

 

 

That's good enough for me. by Jeffster

I live near Killarney...you come over to warm next to my fire anytime... I make a good eggplant pasta sauce too!

[jeffster]

Sarva gattah, theist, bija and Beggar,

 

You are all true gentlemen. When the going gets rough, you all take the humble position. I am sorry that I tend to get heavy at times; my wife will confirm this. I tend to act and react impulsively, often without thinking first; it is a defect of character. Please accept my apologies if I have offended any of you.

 

Bija, isn't Killarney in Ireland ? I thought you lived in Australia ? I would love to visit with you, Bija, although I tend to stay mostly here in USA. But if I am ever in your area, I would love to look you up. I hope that I can meet all of you in real life sometime, real face-to-face, not just on this forum. Be well. Hare Krishna.

 

Yes, I am attempting to write, if Krishna so desires, to carry the torch and pass it on to a new generation of spiritual aspirants. I see it as my duty, but first I must improve and refine my understanding of Vaishnava siddhanta, by studying the books and by associating with devotees in good faith. There is something to learn from all.

 

 

Pranams, jeffster/AMdas

[theist]

 

My point is only that material misconception is LIKE a dream, but that is as far as the analogy can go.

 

AM, my friend, we have come this close but still disagree. The material world is not LIKE a dream it is in fact a dream.

[theist]

 

And by the way Jeffster the soul canmanifest two bodies...one in Goloka-Vrindavan and one inGoloka-Navadwipa for example. The soul can experience whatever Godsanctions.

 

 

Nice point. There is also some mystic siddhi available from the material side that allows accomplished yogis to manifest 8(or is it 9) separate forms at once.

[bija]

 

 

Hi my name is Manohara, a Traveller of Fair Weather and Storm! An explorer-leprechaun of the middle plane. In the Great Land called Gratitude is a Secret Elixir, once spoken about in Times of Old! With the mixing of that Original Tincture and Mother Natures Way, one can be as a beacon for all the Little Things...both tender and meek! Now let us Tread Gently on this Fair Travail! And call out Hi Ho HariBol! And do what all Scribes have done before - write about what we see and know! Hi Ho Deeeedaly Doh!

 

 

 

Bija, isn't Killarney in Ireland ?

I am a wee leprechaun...

 

And spirit traveller...of middle earth...in a virtual dream;) ^^

 

Oneday I will finish my service of manifestation in SL...then you can come and visit. All welcome...(to help build Goloka)...

 

http://secondlife.com

[bija]

 

There is also some mystic siddhi available from the material that allows accomplished yogis to manifest 8(or is it 9) separate forms at once.

 

yep

[Beggar]

 

AM, my friend, we have come this close but still disagree. The material world is not LIKE a dream it is in fact a dream.

 

 

But it is not that "dreaming" of the jiva soul is less powerful than the human jivas sleeping experience. It is actually much, much more powerful.

 

Hari bol, Theist. Here I meant by, the "human jivas sleeping experience" when we sleep at night. I wonder how dreaming that we are moving from body to body is actually related to our dreams when we are just dreaming at night. I'm not even sure that my statement quoted above is correct? The yogis can control what we call dream consciousness, they can will the subtle to manifest on the gross level. The bhaktas simply depend on Krsna's mercy although they control their minds. Maybe this should be a new thread?

[theist]

 

Originally Posted by Beggar

But it is not that "dreaming" of the jiva soul is less powerful thanthe human jivas sleeping experience. It is actually much, much morepowerful.

 

 

Yeah it is much more powerful. The dream reality is Maha-vishnu manifestion all this dream substance in yoga nidra. The jivas dreams are tiny specks of His dream reality. They are secondary.

 

For sure we can have different threads on dreams. I had an old one on lucid dreaming. I am sur eit is deleted from the archives by now. The idea is a lucid dreamer as an analogy for the self realized. Maybe in the madhyama category.

[jeffster]

Well, then, I certainly hope that I will be able to wake up sometime. I have been dreaming for a long time, a very long time...

jeffster/AMdas

"Row, row, row your boat,

Gently down the stream,

Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily,

Life is but a dream." - old folk song

[ranjeetmore]

I would like to quote the take of Sri Shankaracharya on this.

 

Please bear with me for i have a very impure intelligence and do not remember a word of it.....I'll have to rummage through lectures of Maharajji.............................

[Sarva gattah]

Quote:

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>Originally Posted by Beggar

But it is not that "dreaming" of the jiva soul is less powerful than the human jivas sleeping experience. It is actually much, much more powerful.

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Yeah it is much more powerful. The dream reality is Maha-vishnu manifestion all this dream substance in yoga nidra. The jivas dreams are tiny specks of His dream reality. They are secondary.

 

For sure we can have different threads on dreams. I had an old one on lucid dreaming. I am sur eit is deleted from the archives by now. The idea is a lucid dreamer as an analogy for the self realized. Maybe in the madhyama category.

 

Good answer, we forget that even in the heavenly planets ones thoughts and dreams are REALITY also because there is no difference with dreams, thiughts and actions in the heavenly planets, what to speak of Vaikuntha.

 

Not easy to understand, even Ravindra Svarupa prabhu ACBSP cannot understand that dreamsa ARE reality in Vaikuntha, i enjoy listening to his lectures

[theist]

One major difference between Maha-Vishnu'd dreaming ang our humanly dreaming is that the characters in our dreams are just images from our own minds and souless. Vishnu's dreams however are all impregnated with individual souls with Vishnu taking into consideration (through Brahma) the subtle desires of the wandering souls.

 

As usual we offer a poor imitation of God even as dreamers.

[RamanaDasi]

The pure devotees of Bhagavan Sri krishna never forget Krishna

 

Sri Jiva Gosvami has said that the devotees of Lord Krsna are always transcendental to all the modes of material nature; when they feel dizziness or go to sleep, they are not considered to be sleeping under the modes of nature, but are accepted as being in a trance of devotional service. There is an authoritative statement in the Garuda Purana about mystic yogis who are under the direct shelter of the Supreme Personality of Godhead: "In all three stages of their consciousness--namely wakefulness, dreaming and deep sleep--the devotees are absorbed in thought of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Therefore, in their complete absorption in thought of Krsna, they do not sleep."

 

Swami Prabhupada (nectar of devotion)

 

People who believe the associates of Sri Hari are having dreams wherein they are experiencing life under the modes of nature are following a concocted philosophy, as no lesser an authority than Sri Jiva Goswami says the associates ofl the Lord never fall under the influence of Mahamaya even while sleeping

[RamanaDasi]

Bhaktivedanta VedaBase: Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 1.5.19

 

 

na vai jano jātu kathañcanāvrajen

mukunda-sevy anyavad ańga saḿsṛtim

smaran mukundāńghry-upagūhanaḿ punar

vihātum icchen na rasa-graho janaḥ

SYNONYMS

na — never; vai — certainly; janaḥ — a person; jātu — at any time; kathañcana — somehow or other; āvrajet — does not undergo; mukunda-sevī — the devotee of the Lord; anyavat — like others; ańga — O my dear; saḿsṛtim — material existence; smaran — remembering; mukunda-ańghri — the lotus feet of the Lord; upagūhanam — embracing; punaḥ — again; vihātum — willing to give up; icchet — desire; na — never; rasa-grahaḥ — one who has relished the mellow; janaḥ — person.

 

 

TRANSLATION

My dear Vyāsa, even though a devotee of Lord Kṛṣṇa sometimes falls down somehow or other, he certainly does not undergo material existence like others [fruitive workers, etc.] because a person who has once relished the taste of the lotus feet of the Lord can do nothing but remember that ecstasy again and again.

 

 

PURPORT

A devotee of the Lord automatically becomes uninterested in the enchantment of material existence because he is rasa-graha, or one who has tasted the sweetness of the lotus feet of Lord Kṛṣṇa. There are certainly many instances where devotees of the Lord have fallen down due to uncongenial association, just like fruitive workers, who are always prone to degradation. But even though he falls down, a devotee is never to be considered the same as a fallen karmī. A karmī suffers the result of his own fruitive reactions, whereas a devotee is reformed by chastisement directed by the Lord Himself. The sufferings of an orphan and the sufferings of a beloved child of a king are not one and the same. An orphan is really poor because he has no one to take care of him, but a beloved son of a rich man, although he appears to be on the same level as the orphan, is always under the vigilance of his capable father. A devotee of the Lord, due to wrong association, sometimes imitates the fruitive workers. The fruitive workers want to lord it over the material world. Similarly, a neophyte devotee foolishly thinks of accumulating some material power in exchange for devotional service. Such foolish devotees are sometimes put into difficulty by the Lord Himself. As a special favor, He may remove all material paraphernalia. By such action, the bewildered devotee is forsaken by all friends and relatives, and so he comes to his senses again by the mercy of the Lord and is set right to execute his devotional service.

In the Bhagavad-gītā it is also said that such fallen devotees are given a chance to take birth in a family of highly qualified brāhmaṇas or in a rich mercantile family. A devotee in such a position is not as fortunate as one who is chastised by the Lord and put into a position seemingly of helplessness. The devotee who becomes helpless by the will of the Lord is more fortunate than those who are born in good families. The fallen devotees born in a good family may forget the lotus feet of the Lord because they are less fortunate, but the devotee who is put into a forlorn condition is more fortunate because he swiftly returns to the lotus feet of the Lord, thinking himself helpless all around.

Pure devotional service is so spiritually relishable that a devotee becomes automatically uninterested in material enjoyment. That is the sign of perfection in progressive devotional service. A pure devotee continuously remembers the lotus feet of Lord Śrī Kṛṣṇa and does not forget Him even for a moment, not even in exchange for all the opulence of the three worlds.

[RamanaDasi]

In Bhaktirasamrtasindhu 2.4 there is an extensive discussion about the fact that devotees who are in the lila of Krishna sometimes commit mistakes or become fallen or offensive. The examples are given of Akrura (who was involved in stealing the Syamantaka jewel and the murder of Satyajit) as well as Brahma (who stole <st1:place w:st="on">Krishnas</st1:place> cows and friends).

Sri Rupa Goswami explains that those devotees do not suffer in the same way non- bhaktas do.<st1:place w:st="on">

</st1:place>

<st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> helps and protects them.

 

As we also see in the case of Kalakrishna das who was an associate of Mahaprabhu who became involved with gypsy women.

Bhaktivedanta VedaBase: Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 11.2.35

 

 

.

 

TRANSLATION

O King, one who accepts this process of devotional service to the Supreme Personality of Godhead will never blunder on his path in this world. Even while running with eyes closed, he will never trip or fall.

[RamanaDasi]

 

TRANSLATION

My dear Vyāsa, even though a devotee of Lord Kṛṣṇa sometimes falls down somehow or other, he certainly does not undergo material existence like others [fruitive workers, etc.] because a person who has once relished the taste of the lotus feet of the Lord can do nothing but remember that ecstasy again and again.

This verse of Bhagavatam makes no sense if ALL souls were originally in Krishnas lila.

 

Whydoes it say devotees do not undergo material existence "like others" if all the "others" are souls who have fallen from Krishnas lila?

 

That would be a type of deception... saying a devotee never falls down

[Svarupa]

 

Quote:

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But it is not that "dreaming" of the jiva soul is less powerful than the human jivas sleeping experience. It is actually much, much more powerful.

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Quote:

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>Originally Posted by theist

Yeah it is much more powerful. The dream reality is Maha-vishnu manifestion all this dream substance in yoga nidra. The jivas dreams are tiny specks of His dream reality. They are secondary.

For sure we can have different threads on dreams. I had an old one on lucid dreaming. I am sur eit is deleted from the archives by now. The idea is a lucid dreamer as an analogy for the self realized. Maybe in the madhyama category.

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Quote:

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>Originally Posted by Beggar

But it is not that "dreaming" of the jiva soul is less powerful than the human jivas sleeping experience. It is actually much, much more powerful.

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Quote:

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Yeah it is much more powerful. The dream reality is Maha-vishnu manifestion all this dream substance in yoga nidra. The jivas dreams are tiny specks of His dream reality. They are secondary.

For sure we can have different threads on dreams. I had an old one on lucid dreaming. I am sur eit is deleted from the archives by now. The idea is a lucid dreamer as an analogy for the self realized. Maybe in the madhyama category.

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[Beggar]

Definition of dream (Webster)

1: a series of thoughts, images, or emotions occurring during sleep.

2a: an experience of waking life having the characteristics of a dream.

2b: a state of mind marked by abstraction or release from reality.

Look at 2a - dreaming while awake, there are different kinds of this dreaming. Then: Which all leads back to what is reality?

A devotee knows that Sri Krsna is Reality...Reality the Beautiful, that is!