Split in SNM's sanga

[Ian Kensy 2009]

Hare Krishna

 

My story goes like this. A few years ago while travelling in UK and Europe I got introduced to Krishna consciousness by a disciple of Narayan Maharaja and was very interested in it. I saw references in some of the books to Srila Prabhupada and when I arrived in cities with ISKCON temples I would go to the Sunday Feast. I read some ISKCON books and was not at all attracted. When back in the UK I hooked up again with those disciples of Narayan Maharaja and felt happy. They invited me to the next festival when Narayan Maharaja would be there. I came and was disappointed to find it much like when I went to ISKCON and they even read from some ISKCON books during classes. I explained my disappointment to my original friends who said that they too were disappointed at the ISKCONIZATION of their sanga and that it didn't use to be like this. They said that there will be a split in the sanga between the disciples of Narayan Maharaja who want to make things the way they used to be and the followers of Narayan Maharaja who are from ISKCON. In the meantime I was encouraged to attend some classes by direct disciples of Narayan Maharaja but not the classes given by his followers who were from ISKCON. They were good. But out of curiosity I attended one class by an ex ISKCON follower and he was taking everything from Prabhupada's books and I didn't feel it was right because I had already decided that I did not like the ISKCON approach to Krishna consciousness when I had attended the Sunday Feasts and read their books in Europe.

 

Now I don't know what to do because I'm back in America and want to be a Narayan Maharaja follower but not an ISKCON apologist and it seems that many of his followers in America are ex ISKCON devottees and still have attachment to it or force you to read ISKCON books. Are there any devottees on here who can guide me as to what to do or guide me to any original disciples of Narayan Maharaja in America?

[Beggar]

 

Hare Krishna

 

My story goes like this. A few years ago while travelling in UK and Europe I got introduced to Krishna consciousness by a disciple of Narayan Maharaja and was very interested in it. I saw references in some of the books to Srila Prabhupada and when I arrived in cities with ISKCON temples I would go to the Sunday Feast. I read some ISKCON books and was not at all attracted. When back in the UK I hooked up again with those disciples of Narayan Maharaja and felt happy. They invited me to the next festival when Narayan Maharaja would be there. I came and was disappointed to find it much like when I went to ISKCON and they even read from some ISKCON books during classes. I explained my disappointment to my original friends who said that they too were disappointed at the ISKCONIZATION of their sanga and that it didn't use to be like this. They said that there will be a split in the sanga between the disciples of Narayan Maharaja who want to make things the way they used to be and the followers of Narayan Maharaja who are from ISKCON. In the meantime I was encouraged to attend some classes by direct disciples of Narayan Maharaja but not the classes given by his followers who were from ISKCON. They were good. But out of curiosity I attended one class by an ex ISKCON follower and he was taking everything from Prabhupada's books and I didn't feel it was right because I had already decided that I did not like the ISKCON approach to Krishna consciousness when I had attended the Sunday Feasts and read their books in Europe.

 

Now I don't know what to do because I'm back in America and want to be a Narayan Maharaja follower but not an ISKCON apologist and it seems that many of his followers in America are ex ISKCON devottees and still have attachment to it or force you to read ISKCON books. Are there any devottees on here who can guide me as to what to do or guide me to any original disciples of Narayan Maharaja in America?

Ian, with all due respect your history of Srila Narayana Maharaja's sanga in America is imaginary. The first western follower of Srila Narayana Maharaja was Preraka Prabhu, later to be known as Prana Kishora Prabhu. He is a disciple of Srila A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada. In the late seventies he was the head pujari at Iskcon Philadelphia. He briefly met Srila Narayana Maharaja in the late seventies and then began an extensive siksa relationship with him in the early eighties. During the eighties some of Preraka's Iskcon friends from the U.S. also met, heard from and served (siksa) Srila Narayana Maharaja. Also during the mid-eighties by Preraka's influence one young man came from the western branch of Srila Sridhar Maharaja's Math and this fellow later learned Hindi and became the first English translator of Srila Narayana Maharaja's books. That circle gradually expanded and their was some influence on the Senior Iskcon devotees especially those who were spending time or living in Vrndavana. It must be remembered just before his departure from this world Srila Prabhupada asked Srila Narayana Maharaja asked him to help his disciples and this was know amongst many Senior Iskconites. Later in the early nineties some the Iskcon gurus, GBCs and Senior persons took siksa or instruction from Srila Narayana Maharaja and later there was a schism with Iskcon where most stayed with Iskcon and a few stalwarts stayed with Srila Narayana Maharaja. There was one lady from down under who it was learned later who was a cousin of Prana Kishora, who met and became a follower of Srila Narayana Maharaja in the late eighties on her own with no Iskcon connections. In 1997 when the Orrisan Iskcon guru, Srila Goura Govinda Maharaja left this world, many his followers took shelter of Srila Narayana Maharaja. Srila Goura Govinda Maharaja was always very different from the mainstream Iskcon and there is a history there also. So the "original disciples" of Srila Narayana Maharaja in America were all from Iskcon. Even later those who came, generally had an Iskcon background of some sorts. An irrational phobia towards Iskcon as well as an irrational attachment for Iskcon will not help one in real Krsna Consciousness. Religion without philosophy is merely sentiment.

[Ian Kensy 2009]

Thankyou Beggar.

The devottees I met in UK had not been disciples in ISKCON before Narayan Maharaja and I definetly saw a difference in mood. A few of them had stayed briefly with ISKCON or had programs in their homes but severed all ties with ISKCON when they came to Narayan Maharaja. I also observed that disciples of someone named Srivas Maharaja (?maybe the name is wrong?) are also now with Narayan Maharaja but their mood is also not like ISKCON. The UK devottees definetly perceive a split coming. They gave me the names and emails of 2 devottees in America who were early disciples of Narayan Maharaja not from ISKCON and told me to only correspond with them but when I wrote, both of the emails had been disabled. If you know any disciples of Narayan Maharaja who have never been connected with ISKCON or who have severed their ties with it completely, can you please give me their emails? Or can you find out for me. I am alone and want only good Krishna katha. The devottees in UK had told me to be very careful in who I associate with.

[Beggar]

Ian, Srila Rupa Goswami says in Bhakti Rasmrta Sindu that one should seek the association of devotees who are more advanced, have affection towards you and your guru and are on the same path (in the higher sense, leading to the same rasa with Krsna). Everything else in that consideration is irrational sentiment. Connection with one group or another is often superfluos unless you define that connection as a deep service connection with Sri Guru.

[Ian Kensy 2009]

Bhakti Rasamrita Sindhu was one book I took from the UK devottees but have only read first 20 pages or so. I will return to it tonight reminded by you. But are there any Narayan Mahraja disciples in America like the UK devottees who do not rely at all on Prabhupada's books because I just don't like them.

[Beggar]

Bhakti Rasamrita Sindhu was one book I took from the UK devottees but have only read first 20 pages or so. I will return to it tonight reminded by you. But are there any Narayan Mahraja disciples in America like the UK devottees who do not rely at all on Prabhupada's books because I just don't like them.

Srila Bhakti Rashaka Sridhar Maharaja, the illustrious disciple of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur, who was the sannyasa guru of Srila Bhakti Prajnana Kesava Maharaja (Srila Narayana Maharaja's guru) used the phrase, "a superficial aquaintance with Reality or Krsna Consciousness". In the early stages of our spiritual development, how can our aquaintance with this substance be anything but superficial? So we must be careful and not be like the proverbial "bull in a china shop". Where we desire to go is inhabited entirely by pure devotees including the land the trees, everything. Srila Sridhar Maharaja called it the land of gurus. It is not his idea, but rather the idea of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu. If Srila Prabhupada had not come to the West then how would we have ever learned anything about Krsna Consciousness? Srila Narayana Maharaja is very clear about this point. He always tells his disciples, "read the books of myself and Swamiji" (Prabhupada). What could be more clear.

[Ian Kensy 2009]

He did not tell the UK devottees whom I was with that. They said he only started saying that when Prabhupada's disciples starting pushing that. This is part of the rift. I was having a feast with them and talking about something and a disciple of Prabhupada butted in and started giving Prabhupada's view on the matter which was different than those devottees' view. They requested that she not confuse me because I was new and never been in ISKCON. She said they were offensive. I corrected her vision and said, "it is I who am not interested in that view, don't blame them". They like his books because they are from ISKCON but I have not come to Krishna consciousness in ISKCON and I just don't like those books. They need to learn to leave me alone. It's a matter of preference. The UK devottees told me to stick with Indian devottees because they do not lecture from ISKCON books at all. But I am in America and don't think I will find Indian devottees here. There must be some devottees in America who have not come to Krishna consciousness through ISKCON, devottees like me who are not interested in ISKCON books. Where are they? That is all I'm asking. If you like to read ISKCON books I have nothing against you.

[bhaktajan]

Ian,

What difference in "mood"?

 

The demand to shave your head right there and then?

 

Your statement, "devottees who do not rely at all on Prabhupada's books ---because I just don't like them."

 

this the most bazaar concept I have ever heard--it is ipso facto self-contracdictory.

 

I'd wager that few will consider your initial post as sincere 'without revealing your personal experience in light of your personal expectations [and your personal journey (level of familaraity with bhakti-yoga) with specificity'.

 

I have seen & lived through all the ups & downs of ISKCON --so, to me, any bad occurences/experiences of visitors to an ISKCON-run Mandir are of interest to me.

 

It is a very strange statement to say, "devottees who do not rely at all on Prabhupada's books because I just don't like them."

 

It not my concern if you are staunch in your view--it's is just un-probable that a 'neophyte' sees subtle differences in "mood" of sadhus and their sanga --except if the settings were always 'away' from the ashram's hallowed halls in a temporary public venue.

 

I've never know a 'brahmacari' pestering visitors to do ... anything; except in your case --something erked you?

[Beggar]

Ian, there are devotees in Srila Narayana Maharaja's Sanga who have and Iskcon background (have read most of Srila Prabhupada's books) but at this time in their devotional lives are hearing from and mostly reading Srila Narayana Maharaja's books; And exclusive Iskconites will criticize them for this! The sword cuts both ways. But cutting is for warriors with real swords. Bhaktas are to become soft-hearted. trnadapi sunicena. Look for those who also have a deep desire to hear and study from your guru. Those who have love and affection for him and render service in this mood. It doesn't matter what one's background is, but rather where one is at in the present. The truth always lies somewhere in the middle and that's were harmony occurs.

On the other hand, there definitely those in the Sanga who spent a long time in Iskcon and have picked up [bad]habits that are erroneously attributed to Srila Prabhupada. These are like social anarthas (unwanted things). But if someone has a good heart and is sincere, then we must at least be tolerant. Otherwise later on we will find others intolerant of us and suffer. One of the worst social anarthas in Iskcon has been extreme judgementalism. Sometimes we see this carried over to the Sanga. But if we judge devotees back, and go looking for this, then we become, "the pot calling the kettle black". Hypocriscy pervades the material atmoshere and is very hard to avoid.

[Ian Kensy 2009]

The difference in mood means when I was in UK and going to the devottees' houses. They were not from ISKCON ever. Their classes were very different from the classes I attended both in ISKCON and at the big Narayan Maharaja festival where followers of Prabhupada were also giving classes. I would never have known that Narayan Maharaja has followers from ISKCON from the UK devottees that I met. But then at the festival I found it out. No brahmacari pestered me. I only said that during a conversation I had with a disciple of Narayan Maharaja, a Prabhupada disciple wanted us to hear Prabhupada's view on the topic, neither of us expressed interest because neither of us were from ISKCON. So I am just here asking one thing and that is are there any disciples of Narayan Maharaja on this website who had no previous ISKCON experience like the devottees I met in UK? Or is there someone who can give me the contacts of someone like that? Nothing against anybody, it's just what I'm asking, and only because the emails of such devottees were not working otherwise I would not have to ask here.

[Beggar]

One time I was sitting in Srila Narayana Maharaja's room and he said sort of off the cuff, "I like to preach to Swamijis disciples... it is easy to bring them to a higher platform, with my disciples it is not so easy."

 

He also said on 6/8/05 in LA:

"Especially, we should try to respect each other. Juniors should respect seniors, and seniors should have love and affection for juniors, with no ulterior motive. I have not called you all so that you can make money or have a position. I have never told you that I would give you money for business purposes. Some of you are from England and other places very far away from here. I have called you all to tell you that if you follow me, I will take you to Krsna. That is my only promise. I will give you bhakti. I never promised that I would give you money, position or anything other than bhakti."

 

Obviously, almost everyone in the Sanga are your seniors, but the most senior are those from Iskcon, especially Srila Prabhupada (Swamiji's) direct disciples. If we segregate each other based on senior and junior then we just transpose the modern generation gap concept on a spiritual society.

If someone brings with them their old bad habits from Iskcon then be tolerant, you don't have to spend much time with them. There is no such law. But there is hardly anyone in the U.S. in the Sanga who has no Iskcon connection except for very new people like yourself.

[Ian Kensy 2009]

But I was told there were devottees like that here and that they tell very good Krishna katha and that I should find them. I was given email addresses too, so please find out for me. I was told that the early direct disciples of Narayan Maharaja avoid the sanga now because it is too much like ISKCON but that they are out there. I have nothing against seniors but just don't want to be forced to read books I don't like and they try to do that alot. Otherwise I have no problem respecting them.

[Beggar]

 

But I was told there were devottees like that here and that they tell very good Krishna katha and that I should find them. I was given email addresses too, so please find out for me. I was told that the early direct disciples of Narayan Maharaja avoid the sanga now because it is too much like ISKCON but that they are out there. I have nothing against seniors but just don't want to be forced to read books I don't like and they try to do that alot. Otherwise I have no problem respecting them.

 

I know one lady from New York who only had association with Srila Narayana Maharaja in the nineties (she has both hari nama and diksa from him). She was previously in Iskcon for ten years but was never initiated there and is now 62. Once the year 2000 rolled around she felt that the Sanga was too big for her, not like before when she could get Srila Narayana Maharaja's personal association. So she left. But then in time she gave up chanting, hearing and remembering. In reality the problem is not Iskcon but institutionalization. That problem is not exclusive to Iskcon by any means.

[Ian Kensy 2009]

Do you know where I can reach her?

[theist]

 

An irrational phobia towards Iskcon aswell as an irrational attachment for Iskcon will not help one in realKrsna Consciousness. Religion without philosophy is merely sentiment.

 

 

YES!

[theist]

 

I know one lady from New York who only had association with Srila Narayana Maharaja in the nineties (she has both hari nama and diksa from him). She was previously in Iskcon for ten years but was never initiated there and is now 62. Once the year 2000 rolled around she felt that the Sanga was too big for her, not like before when she could get Srila Narayana Maharaja's personal association. So she left. But then in time she gave up chanting, hearing and remembering. In reality the problem is not Iskcon but institutionalization. That problem is not exclusive to Iskcon by any means.

 

 

And this problem can be transcended when one realizes the devotee lives in his instructions (vani) and in inspiration for devotional service that he has left in you.

 

 

Guru is not the body even though his body is spirtualized.

 

 

*It is NOT essential that guru be embodied

 

 

 

This teaching confuses people and they assume they can't associate with guru because there are too many people in the way.

 

 

People that think like this either get caught in the trap of trying to have a personal relationship with an instituion or they just go away frustrated.

 

 

*edited for clarity.

[Ian Kensy 2009]

Do you see Beggar what I am talking about now? Theist's comment is the perfect example. Complete with a link to Prabhupada's books.

[Beggar]

 

Do you see Beggar what I am talking about now? Theist's comment is the perfect example. Complete with a link to Prabhupada's books.

Not really because Theist is not in Srila Narayana Maharaja's sanga. He may be in Alfred E. Newman's group, I'm not sure. I'm more concerned with the split in my trousers especially since my wife won't sew for me anymore.

[theist]

Ian I have not followed your conversation with Beggar. My post #17 was just an agreement with his quoted statement.

 

I was trying to say that institutionalism is no substitute for a personal relationship with Guru through his vani or instructions.

 

Usually it seems spiritual institutions degrade quickly into social institutions and 'tea party' consciousness with various cliques forming among members. I call this "playing church."

[suchandra]

 

But I was told there were devottees like that here and that they tell very good Krishna katha and that I should find them. I was given email addresses too, so please find out for me. I was told that the early direct disciples of Narayan Maharaja avoid the sanga now because it is too much like ISKCON but that they are out there. I have nothing against seniors but just don't want to be forced to read books I don't like and they try to do that alot. Otherwise I have no problem respecting them.

Could it be that it has something to do with institution? Traditionally Vaishnavas don't set up institutions but base their exchange upon spiritual affection. However, in order to bring Vaishnavism to the whole world Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Maharaja thought it wise to install around 1910 the framework of an institution.

 

Sometimes it so happens that this very dynamic of an institution becomes too prominent and the spirituality is lacking behind. This was studied also at other religions like Christianity, that sometimes it seemed that the institutional beaurocracy even took control and spirituality was almost lost.

 

Those who are within such an institutional system even cannot understand these two aspects - see it all as one. In Christianity many started to rejet the institution and became non-institutional saints, like D'arc, Assisi, St.Martin, etc etc.

 

Could be that this will also happen to the Vaishnava movement, that some will seek for non-institutional spirituality. Especially when the institutions are simply used for power and control.

[theist]

 

Not really because Theist is not in Srila Narayana Maharaja's sanga. He may be in Alfred E. Newman's group, I'm not sure. I'm more concerned with the split in my trousers especially since my wife won't sew for me anymore.

 

 

No not part of NM sanga, or Iskcon's for that matter. They both seem to insist on group think and I don't want to be a part of that. But clearly those people in those sanga's have much more solid sadhana than I.

 

 

But what? Me worry?

[Svarupa]

 

Not really because Theist is not in Srila Narayana Maharaja's sanga. He may be in Alfred E. Newman's group, I'm not sure. I'm more concerned with the split in my trousers especially since my wife won't sew for me anymore.

 

funny man - He is actually in Lord Caitanya's sanga

 

 

"If a devotee accepts Lord Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu as the universal guru and Lord Jagannatha as the Supreme Personality of Godhead Krsna, he is benefited by the combined mercy of Krsna and guru." - Madhya 13.18 purport http://www.prabhupadabooks.com/

 

[AncientMariner]

 

funny man - He is actually in Lord Caitanya's sanga

 

 

All I know is that I am happy that I have had association with theist. Many things he has told me have helped my understanding.

[bhaktajan]

Hari Bol, Ian Kensy 2009 FYI:

 

"...very good Krishna katha..." = A knowledgable devotee who reads aloud directly to you [and others in the room]. Period.

 

::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::;

Your recounting seems akin to an expressed preference for one cinema-house over another cinema-house --due to tall people always sit in front of your view in a particular cinema-house.

 

Yet, the actually quality & sense of appreciation of the 'Artistry' on the Wall --is something which you've not introduced into your postings here.

 

................................................

Your recounting also seems akin to berating a University's Appeal due to your 'sitting too close to' an ex-student during an "orientation" --a complaining ex-student with a problem with the past overdue tuition debts that he/she owes the University.

 

.................................................

"Don't associate with down-people"

[theist]

Likewise for sure AM!

 

dandavats