Split in SNM's sanga

[bija]

Click to play

 

Born to open for

Mankind nature's door

A life known by a few

 

And those who knew that shared

Their knowledge fewer cared

About what plants could do

 

For most felt it was mad to conceive

That plants thought, felt, and moved quite like we

But with instruments Bose would devise

Would take Science itself by a surprise, so

 

On we go to where who knows

To a place where there's still non-believers

What will it take for heaven sakes

For those who find what's real too hard to believe in

It's that same old story again.

 

Born of slaves who died

Too soon to realize

The need his life would be

 

Selflessy he gave

His wisdom to a way

Where first no minds would see

 

He said if farm land was to be rich

We must plant crops to replenish it

But it took him persuasion and tests

To convince them father's way was best, so

 

On we go to where who knows

To a place where there's still non-believers

What will it take for heaven sakes

For those who find what's real too hard to believe in

It's that same old story again.

- stevie wonder

[jeffster]

Bija, that's cuz yer mostly a brahmana ! Brahmanas like liberries. Let's start our own rural ashram !!

jeffster/AMd

[bija]

my room's to messy to be a brahmana:eek4: cya...

 

(back to the topic)..

 

 

Let's start our own rural ashram !!

Same dream as bhaktatraveller.

[Beggar]

 

.

- stevie wonder

I'm more into funky Stevie:

"We Was Made To serve Krsna"

I was born in Maya,

Had a childhood sweetheart,

We were always hand in hand.

I joined the Hare Krsnas mixed shoes and sikha tails,

Devi was in pig tails,

I know I was detached from her even then.

When I moved into the temple...you know my papa disapproved it,

My mata boohooed it,

But I told them time and time again,

"Don't you know we all was made to serve Krsna,

Built a world all around Prabhupada"

jaya! Hari, hey, hey.

He's been my inspiration,

tried to show appreciation

For the grace he gave me through the years.

Like a sweet kadamba tree

My creeper blossmed tenderly,

Hare nama grew sweeter through the years...

I tried to continue to do it,then I blooped it,

Now I've been stuck in Maya many years...

[jeffster]

I "blooped" in 1980, after living through part of the Hansadutta era at Berkeley, CA Iskcon. It just got crazier and crazier, although Hansadutta now is mostly O.K. Temple devotees must still think I'm a blooped devotee. Recently, after kirtan and prasad at an Iskcon temple, I was asked to go on Harinam the next day. I told them that we (wife and I) were going back to our "maya world." They kind of believed it, although I was (1/2) jesting.

But not to be critical of them, as many in the rank and file are sincere. I am still not exemplary in many ways myself, so I don't believe in being a muck-raker, as the muck, or worse, will often get thrown back in the face of the muckors by the muckees.

jeffster/AMd

[bija]

I joined the Hare Krsnas mixed shoes and sikha tails

Well done....nice melody.

[Narasingh]

There are, undoubtedly, many things which Srila Prabhupada said that are a bitter pill to swallow. Some things he said are justified in roundabout ways to this day. The position of women and blacks, as spoken about by Srila Prabhupada, are most often left out of conversations and most often issues of contention. The position of the jiva is another. When they are brought up it becomes an uncomfortable discussion with one wondering things like, exactly what role it plays in spirituality to announce the primitiveness of a certain race. These are the type of topics which make it difficult for persons to openly hear what Srila Prabhupada has to say. It is obvious for many that Srila Prabhupada opened the Gaudiya Vaishnava door to the west in a grandiose way and introduced all of his followers to others whom he felt qualified to guide. So, for those who are hesitant to hear from Srila Prabhupada in the beginning stages, with their current conceptions of right and wrong guiding them in decisive choices, it may just serve well enough to pass them along to others, in a benevolent way, knowing the beautiful gift Prabhupada has given us is there to be had by anyone who wants it.

[Beggar]

 

There are, undoubtedly, many things which Srila Prabhupada said that are a bitter pill to swallow. Some things he said are justified in roundabout ways to this day. The position of women and blacks, as spoken about by Srila Prabhupada, are most often left out of conversations and most often issues of contention. The position of the jiva is another. When they are brought up it becomes an uncomfortable discussion with one wondering things like, exactly what role it plays in spirituality to announce the primitiveness of a certain race. These are the type of topics which make it difficult for persons to openly hear what Srila Prabhupada has to say. It is obvious for many that Srila Prabhupada opened the Gaudiya Vaishnava door to the west in a grandiose way and introduced all of his followers to others whom he felt qualified to guide. So, for those who are hesitant to hear from Srila Prabhupada in the beginning stages, with their current conceptions of right and wrong guiding them in decisive choices, it may just serve well enough to pass them along to others, in a benevolent way, knowing the beautiful gift Prabhupada has given us is there to be had by anyone who wants it.

 

Good post:

"mitaḿ ca sāraḿ ca vaco hi vāgmitā" iti

"Essential truth spoken concisely is true eloquence." CC Adi 1.106

 

But remember that the acarya that he aspires to follow was an intimate friend of Srila Prabhupada, although from a junior position. He needs to harmonize his outlook with his guru's conception. But he is not yet developed to the point of understanding that.

[theist]

 

Well, sir, I reckon that that's a whole 'nuther issue. Since they feel such a need to alter Prabhupad, for, shall we say less than completely pure reasons, usually something to do with establishing authority, often their own, and since some of them have gone back to skool to git their PHDs, ostensibly for preaching purposes, and since Prabhupad said that PHD means "plow department," therefore they should be happy to start rural agrarian ashrams, if for nothing else than survival purposes, as the cities WILL fall, and there may no longer be a place to "pick." Their gurus should man the plows for awhile to set a good example for the rank and file and to practice what they preach by example - PHD - plow department. See ya'all on the farms !! Actually, I'd be stoked to go.

jeffster/AMd

Dang it, now I've done and gone off topic.

 

 

Off topic but spot on.

[bija]

 

So, for those who are hesitant to hear from Srila Prabhupada in the beginning stages, with their current conceptions of right and wrong guiding them in decisive choices, it may just serve well enough to pass them along to others, in a benevolent way, knowing the beautiful gift Prabhupada has given us is there to be had by anyone who wants it.

Yep. And we each need to tread that path...with all the rocks and stepping stones, as Ian is also doing.

 

Ian has expressed one very nice thing...he wishes to seek that which appeals to his heart. I reckon that is brilliant.

 

Sometimes, the heart will eventually bring us full circle (back again)...to see the beginning a-new. And that is cool. Then it really happens for the soul... If we give space for it to.

[Narasingh]

As you said, Beggar and Bija, at some point Ian may learn of the relationships between Srila Prabhupada and his god-brothers. And it is admirable to see a person trying to follow their heart's inspiration especially as it seems they haven't been accepted by anyone in particular as a student. In a theater, one may have to search for a particular seat, given their vision requirements. Yet the purpose is to partake in the theatricals not find the seat.

[Kulapavana]

 

There are, undoubtedly, many things which Srila Prabhupada said that are a bitter pill to swallow. Some things he said are justified in roundabout ways to this day. The position of women and blacks, as spoken about by Srila Prabhupada, are most often left out of conversations and most often issues of contention. The position of the jiva is another. When they are brought up it becomes an uncomfortable discussion with one wondering things like, exactly what role it plays in spirituality to announce the primitiveness of a certain race. These are the type of topics which make it difficult for persons to openly hear what Srila Prabhupada has to say.

 

That is the way I see it as well. Many people are distracted from the real quality and value of these books by such controversial remarks. Still, like you said, many if not most of his followers insist that they are justified and valid. They still propose to build a 'Vedic Planetarium' where the Sun is closer to the Earth than Moon simply because 'Prabhupada said so'.

 

The books of Narayana Maharaja or Sridhara Maharaja do not seem to generate such emotions in readers. They may not be into the subject matter of these books, but at least they are not turned off by such controversial remarks.

[suchandra]

 

That is the way I see it as well. Many people are distracted from the real quality and value of these books by such controversial remarks. Still, like you said, many if not most of his followers insist that they are justified and valid. They still propose to build a 'Vedic Planetarium' where the Sun is closer to the Earth than Moon simply because 'Prabhupada said so'.

 

The books of Narayana Maharaja or Sridhara Maharaja do not seem to generate such emotions in readers. They may not be into the subject matter of these books, but at least they are not turned off by such controversial remarks.

 

It is basically neophyte Vaishnavas who have problems with Prabhupada saying that there's a Moon further away from the Sun. Many non-Vaishnavas, however, have no problem with such statements.

For example, in kali-yuga no devas come to the Earth, they stay away. So when devas speak of Moon, do they refer to the Moon of our Earth? Of course do they speak of the Moon in heaven, what they consider as real Moon. Only backwoodsmen refer to the Moon rotating around our planet as the real Moon in heaven.

[Narasingh]

 

That is the way I see it as well. Many people are distracted from the real quality and value of these books by such controversial remarks. Still, like you said, many if not most of his followers insist that they are justified and valid. They still propose to build a 'Vedic Planetarium' where the Sun is closer to the Earth than Moon simply because 'Prabhupada said so'.

 

The books of Narayana Maharaja or Sridhara Maharaja do not seem to generate such emotions in readers. They may not be into the subject matter of these books, but at least they are not turned off by such controversial remarks.

I have to wonder if it is the nature of the books or the nature of the person reading them though (as Suchandra has stated). We have to consider that most Westerners who have embraced Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati's, Srila Bhaktivinode Thakure's, Srila Sridhara Maharaja's, Srila Narayana Maharaja's or Srila Tirtha Maharaja's or Srila Puri Maharaja's .... books and teachings have had some formal association with at least the books of Srila Prabhupada in the past. Sadly, there is a proportionate few who cling to the word and not the gist and somehow those are the ones who provide the lack of fulfillment for others.

[Beggar]

 

 

Only backwoodsmen refer to the Moon rotating around our planet as the real Moon in heaven.

 

 

Now Ellie May what's so hard about understand'in that the moon goes around the Earth?

 

 

[suchandra]

 

 

 

 

Now Ellie May what's so hard about understand'in that the moon goes around the Earth?

 

Right, Jack Nickelson, there's a Moon that goes around our Earth but read Kulas post, he rejects Prabhupada because Prabhupada says, the Moon is further away than the Sun.

Btw, almost every planet has its own little Moon. So, there're millions of these little Moons in this Universe, but only one big heavenly Moon.

[Beggar]

 

Right, Jack Nickelson, there's a Moon that goes around our Earth but read Kulas post, he rejects Prabhupada because Prabhupada says, the Moon is further away than the Sun.

Btw, almost every planet has its own little Moon. So, there're millions of these little Moons in this Universe, but only one big heavenly Moon.

I had a picture of Jeb Clampet and Ellie may in my post and it disappeared! Shazam! Yes, the its Sukadeva Goswami who gives this cosmology in the Bhagavatam. Srila Prabhupada saw it as literally true (the basis for his rejection of the moon landing) whereas Srila Sridhar Maharaja said that this is how one sees the universe when they are on the level of consciousness of Srila Sukadeva Goswami.

[theist]

Yeah but Prabhupada was speaking of the Moon visble in our sky. As I have said so often I personally have no problem with such descriptions of the universal cosmology propounded by the Bhagavatam. I don't believe it is factual. Period.

 

But then I don't read the SB for knowledge of cosmology. I don't consider such topics as transcendental knowledge which is what I am looking for from the SB. And in that the SB is unsurpassed by anything I have seen so far.

[Narasingh]

Nice, Theist

[suchandra]

 

Yeah but Prabhupada was speaking of the Moon visble in our sky. As I have said so often I personally have no problem with such descriptions of the universal cosmology propounded by the Bhagavatam. I don't believe it is factual. Period.

 

But then I don't read the SB for knowledge of cosmology. I don't consider such topics as transcendental knowledge which is what I am looking for from the SB. And in that the SB is unsurpassed by anything I have seen so far.

When Prabhupada spoke of the Moon further away then the Sun he cannot have meant our Moon which takes 27.3 days to complete one orbit around the Earth. If you have a telescope you can see every crater on our Moon, because it is so close. It is an Earth trabant, simple to understand.

[Kulapavana]

 

When Prabhupada spoke of the Moon further away then the Sun he cannot have meant our Moon which takes 27.3 days to complete one orbit around the Earth. If you have a telescope you can see every crater on our Moon, because it is so close. It is an Earth trabant, simple to understand.

 

Bollocks... Prabhupada said that astronauts could not have landed on the Moon after such a short journey because Moon is further away than Sun. Remember the Monday/Sunday argument?

 

Two questions immediatelly arise: So where is that faraway 'real' Moon, and what is that thing above our head at night we call Moon?

 

This is just about as clever as Bible-thumpers claiming that dinosaur bones were created by the Devil to confuse the true believers...

[Kulapavana]

 

Right, Jack Nickelson, there's a Moon that goes around our Earth but read Kulas post, he rejects Prabhupada because Prabhupada says, the Moon is further away than the Sun.

 

I do not reject Prabhupada because of that. I reject the theory of his followers that he was always right. A pure devotee does not have to be always right to be a pure devotee.

[Kulapavana]

For the followers of Srila Prabhupada questioning the theory that he was always right is a blasphemy. But they have no problem calling Narayana Maharaja a sahajiya and an offender to their guru... See Sampradaya Sun for details.

 

Dont judge me or my guru, but let me judge you and your guru using my own criteria...

[Beggar]

 

For the followers of Srila Prabhupada questioning the theory that he was always right is a blasphemy. But they have no problem calling Narayana Maharaja a sahajiya and an offender to their guru... See Sampradaya Sun for details.

 

Dont judge me or my guru, but let me judge you and your guru using my own criteria...

Only the so-called followers of Srila Prabhupada are chomping at the bit to offend suddha Vaisnavas. His real followers would never do such a thing.

[Kulapavana]

 

Only the so-called followers of Srila Prabhupada are chomping at the bit to offend suddha Vaisnavas. His real followers would never do such a thing.

 

It seems to me that the followers of SP think they have the right and duty to criticize everybody and everything, because a preacher should be 'bold', and because only they truly understand what is right and what is wrong... And the trinad-api-sunicena thing is just a poetic metaphor of the true preacher, who swings his rod of chastisement like Lord Parasurama swings his battle axe...

 

There may be split in NM sanga... just like there are splits in SP sanga. It seems inevitable. And all that while the guru is still present... Kali-yuga indeed... quarrel and hypocrisy galore...