Split in SNM's sanga

[Beggar]

 

It seems to me that the followers of SP think they have the right and duty to criticize everybody and everything, because a preacher should be 'bold', and because only they truly understand what is right and what is wrong... And the trinad-api-sunicena thing is just a poetic metaphor of the true preacher, who swings his rod of chastisement like Lord Parasurama swings his battle axe...

 

Still there are real followers of Srila Prabhupada, (very, very rare), those who sincerely aspiring to be real followers of Srila Prabhupada, (very rare), those who have some hidden motivation but are still trying, those who pretend to follow just to get a positon and aren't even trying, and those who have just given up. But that's true of all gurus. So the real focus should be to put our hands on our hearts and wonder which one am I?

[bija]

I guess if we are still asking that question Beggar, there is some sincerity. Often sincerity is used as a harsh plumb-line...when infact sincerity is related to bhakti devi - is soft by nature.

 

That is the way to follow guru. And to take the journey... Rather than the road of self-criticism or 'parasurama'.

[bija]

 

Srila Prabhupada saw it as literally true (the basis for his rejection of the moon landing) whereas Srila Sridhar Maharaja said that this is how one sees the universe when they are on the level of consciousness of Srila Sukadeva Goswami. by beggar

Aaah...two different fella's teaching in their unique ways. I think you touched on that in another thread. Interesting in a way, by their teachings and methods, one-day; we may be able to glimpse their personal bhajan.. and discover ours.

[suchandra]

 

Bollocks... Prabhupada said that astronauts could not have landed on the Moon after such a short journey because Moon is further away than Sun. Remember the Monday/Sunday argument?

 

Two questions immediatelly arise: So where is that faraway 'real' Moon, and what is that thing above our head at night we call Moon?

 

This is just about as clever as Bible-thumpers claiming that dinosaur bones were created by the Devil to confuse the true believers...

Just use your common sense man, Indraloka, Brahmaloka, Shivaloka, Agniloka, Vayuloka, Varunaloka, Adityaloka, they are Billions of miles away, do they get Moon light. Of course, but not from our little Moon which is just 384403 kilometers (238857 miles) away from the Earth. Therefore we have this quickly changing full Moon, new Moon, half Moon, because it is so close, quickly orbiting around the Earth with short distance. Our Moon is meant to give Moonlight for the Earth but not for other planets. There're million of planets, who all get Moonlight. But from different Moons. Although our Moon is close, still, like many karmis who doubt that NASA actually went there Prabhupada also rejected this idea of a Moon landing.

[theist]

 

When Prabhupada spoke of the Moon further away then the Sun he cannot have meant our Moon which takes 27.3 days to complete one orbit around the Earth. If you have a telescope you can see every crater on our Moon, because it is so close. It is an Earth trabant, simple to understand.

 

 

Yes that is exactly the same moon he was talking about and it is the same moon the bhagavatam was talking about.

 

 

If someone holds on to the notion that the devotee is omniscient and every little thing he says must be 100% correct then you will lose your faith over situations like this.

 

 

However if you understand the devotee is not some kind of omniscient answer machine and can be wrong or unlearned in so many mundane things and still be a pure lover of Krishna then you won't be moved.

 

 

I wouldn't expect Prabhupada to be able to preform brain surgery on someone or fix a bad car engine or understand astrophysics.

 

 

 

It is the intensity and purity of loving Krishna that should be what attracts one to guru.

[jeffster]

Theist, you nailed it again with post #80 !! Yes, we love Prabhupad because he is purely loving Krishna, not because of any mundane talent or lack thereof. Remember, as a householder, he was a chemist or what we now call a pharmaceutical manufacturer.

 

Meanwhile, Bhakta Ian has probably perfected his life and already gone back to Godhead.

jeffster/AMd

[bija]

yes, good post theist, I follow you here in these thoughts. It depends on the person hey... and the bhakti.

[bhaktajan]

jeffster: "he was a chemist or what we now call a pharmaceutical manufacturer."

 

This is not correct. He was a regular local pharmacist. {No?}

[Narasingh]

 

jeffster: "he was a chemist or what we now call a pharmaceutical manufacturer."

 

This is not correct. He was a regular local pharmacist. {No?}

 

In India you can be both. Especially back when. He was a compounder. When Srila Sridhar Maharaj stayed with him during the riots of Muslim/Hindu division (maybe Srila Govinda Maharaj as well?) there were skirmishes where they were and he advised Srila Sridhara Maharaj to drop beakers of hydrochloric or sulfuric acid out of the 2nd story window to deter the rioters if they tried to break in. He definitely was into chemistry and compounded his very own products as well as retailed other products. So ... 6 in one 1/2 dozen in the other?

[bhaktajan]

In 1920 Bhaktivedanta completed his B.A. in chemistry at the Scottish Churches’ College in Calcutta; by that time, his family had arranged a marriage for him, and he later established a pharmacy business. In 1922 his guru, a spiritual leader of the Vaiṣṇava Hindu sect, urged him to preach the teachings of Krishna throughout the Western world.

 

Thereafter Bhaktivedanta devoted much time as lecturer, writer, editor, and translator for the Vaiṣṇava and in 1933 was formally initiated as a disciple at Allahābād.

 

Because his family did not share his religious interests, Bhaktivedanta turned over his business to a son and renounced all family ties in 1954 to devote his full time to religious work.

 

He received the title of swami in 1959 and in 1965 sailed for Boston, Mass., U.S. Several months later he moved to New York City, where he established the headquarters of the Hare Krishna movement on the Lower East Side.

 

From a storefront, he taught classes on Vedic culture, which he claimed could affect the consciousness of a world afflicted with rampant materialism.

 

The movement became especially popular among young people, and many of the swami’s books began to be studied on college and university campuses.

Despite his failing health, Bhaktivedanta by the time of his death had written and published more than 50 books on ancient Vedic culture and had opened more than 100 centres throughout the world.

 

--Source: http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/63970/A-C-Bhaktivedanta

 

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[Xochitl]

 

There are more I can quote. But this serves my purpose. You might all be right with regards to Ian, but all these responses to him were simply uncalled for. He asked something directly and clearly, which would warrant a response or lack of one. I can assure you we come off arrogant and condescending by responding as above. Perhaps we do have more in common with "bible thumpers" than eastern spiritualists. Jeffster, your's was difficult to pick since you were actually very thoughtful in your responses.

In defense of my statement, I want everyone to know I was simply joking about a much more serious issue. That is, guru-aparadha. "Start your own math... hahaha" isn't advice or a condescending remark. At most, he might realise that this mentality can be very dangerous and lead him down the path of the speculative slippey slope. This young man mentioned that his spiritual master is using Srila AC Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada's books for reading during lectures, that means to some extent Srila Narayan Maharaj is accepting them as valid translations, and for a disciple to dismiss it on the basis of intellectual appeal(really that is what this is about) is merely impudent and like someone else said, "arrogance". Maybe I should have made my comment a little more transparent, and I'm sorry if I came off as callous. My serious advice to this young man would be this, "Don't dismiss or spectulate about the spiritual master's decision, that is a very serious offense that you should very carefully guard against. Instead, ask him directly what his instructions regarding Srila Prabhupada's books are and avoid any spiritual hinderance whatsoever. Be honest and straight forward. Tell him your opinion and ask him if this is correct position, otherwise you are just speculating and you will find yourself ina spiritual grave." I don't want anyone to disregard the instructions(direct or indirect)of his guru because others are afraid of coming off as "BIBLE THUMPERS" In this regard, we should all be each others true well-wisher and correct each other in order advance in Krishna Consciousness. I would appreciate such a dear friend for reprimanding me in this way, that way I can rectify my wild and rebellious "independant" mentality. Also please forgive me anyone and everyone if I was offensive in my earlier comment; again, I hope this post has clarified that.

[jeffster]

My point was only that by mundane calculation, Srila Prabhupad's occupation as a householder was nothing remarkable. It was Prabhupad's purity and personal sacrifice that moved us. What must have been remarkable was his personal bhajan, and what became even more remarkable, world-shaking even, judging by the result, was his preaching mission, because it could only have been fully sanctioned by the Lord to be so extremely successful in such a short period of time. "Hare Krishna" became a household word, even in the mleccha lands.

jeffster/AMd

[Narasingh]

 

In defense of my statement, I want everyone to know I was simply joking about a much more serious issue. That is, guru-aparadha. "Start your own math... hahaha" isn't advice or a condescending remark. At most, he might realise that this mentality can be very dangerous and lead him down the path of the speculative slippey slope. This young man mentioned that his spiritual master is using Srila AC Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada's books for reading during lectures, that means to some extent Srila Narayan Maharaj is accepting them as valid translations, and for a disciple to dismiss it on the basis of intellectual appeal(really that is what this is about) is merely impudent and like someone else said, "arrogance". Maybe I should have made my comment a little more transparent, and I'm sorry if I came off as callous. My serious advice to this young man would be this, "Don't dismiss or spectulate about the spiritual master's decision, that is a very serious offense that you should very carefully guard against. Instead, ask him directly what his instructions regarding Srila Prabhupada's books are and avoid any spiritual hinderance whatsoever. Be honest and straight forward. Tell him your opinion and ask him if this is correct position, otherwise you are just speculating and you will find yourself ina spiritual grave." I don't want anyone to disregard the instructions(direct or indirect)of his guru because others are afraid of coming off as "BIBLE THUMPERS" In this regard, we should all be each others true well-wisher and correct each other in order advance in Krishna Consciousness. I would appreciate such a dear friend for reprimanding me in this way, that way I can rectify my wild and rebellious "independant" mentality. Also please forgive me anyone and everyone if I was offensive in my earlier comment; again, I hope this post has clarified that.

As he said earlier, though, he isn't initiated and hasn't been accepted as a disciple yet, he is only very new to the idea of Krsna Consciousness. Perhaps there is an element of truth to Ian's understanding that Srila Narayan Maharaj doesn't prescribe Srila Prabhupada's books to all of his disciples. He was clear enough that this was his understanding although I persnally cannont say it is the truth or not. Perhaps if he decides to pursue Krsna Consciousness to the extent of personal association with a Guru he may come full circle again as bija said

Yep. And we each need to tread that path...with all the rocks and stepping stones, as Ian is also doing.

 

Ian has expressed one very nice thing...he wishes to seek that which appeals to his heart. I reckon that is brilliant.

 

Sometimes, the heart will eventually bring us full circle (back again)...to see the beginning a-new. And that is cool. Then it really happens for the soul... If we give space for it to.

[suchandra]

 

Yes that is exactly the same moon he was talking about and it is the same moon the bhagavatam was talking about.

 

 

 

Moon is described as category of planet, not that every Moon is mentioned separately. There're millions of planets and millions of Moons.

 

Just like Jupiter, you see the Jupiter Moon clearly on pic below rotating closely around Jupiter and thus creating the Moon effects like waxing Moon, waning Moon and full Moon.

 

 

This is only possible when quickly orbiting around a planet. Affecting the tides, growth of vegetables and the emotions of the living entities. There're even symptoms of being moonstruck, but as soon the Moon moves further it is gone.

 

So these effects can only happen when a Moon quickly rotates around a planet very closely. Total solar eclipse is when the Moon is in between the Sun and the planet and not when the Moon is behind the Sun.

 

Problem is that there is obviously a group of people working hard to make Prabhupada's statements look just wrong. Tapes disappeared, tapes manipulated etc.

[bhaktajan]

Moonshine = Shining glow of the Moon.

 

In all those 1960's pictures taken on/from the moon --it is lamentable that NASA only had "black and white" film technology that only photographed in monochrome colors.

 

And what about the "Earth-Shine"?

 

Does not the Sun reflect light off the earth's surface so as to illuminate the dark side of the moon?

[theist]

 

In India you can be both. Especially back when. He was a compounder. When Srila Sridhar Maharaj stayed with him during the riots of Muslim/Hindu division (maybe Srila Govinda Maharaj as well?) there were skirmishes where they were and he advised Srila Sridhara Maharaj to drop beakers of hydrochloric or sulfuric acid out of the 2nd story window to deter the rioters if they tried to break in. He definitely was into chemistry and compounded his very own products as well as retailed other products. So ... 6 in one 1/2 dozen in the other?

 

 

 

 

Yeah!!!! I love it. :D:D

[Xochitl]

 

As he said earlier, though, he isn't initiated and hasn't been accepted as a disciple yet, he is only very new to the idea of Krsna Consciousness. Perhaps there is an element of truth to Ian's understanding that Srila Narayan Maharaj doesn't prescribe Srila Prabhupada's books to all of his disciples. He was clear enough that this was his understanding although I persnally cannont say it is the truth or not. Perhaps if he decides to pursue Krsna Consciousness to the extent of personal association with a Guru he may come full circle again as bija said

Okay, I understand that point as well, it is very valid, but I think young Ian has already set his heart on someone, and that is serious. I think he already has attachment to SNM that is why he is insistent on having association with those who can fan the flames of guru-bhakti.... that is necessary. Whether he was "accepted" as a disciple isn't of importance at this stage, because he is still like you said, "very new". Like when a young girl is in love with a boy, she doesn't mind whether the boy likes her back, she is merely entangled in the wiles of very new or what I call "fresh love". That fresh love or early infatuation is, in the early stage, the only sustenance for itself, until it matures and develops into something more significant.

I can disclose in my personal experience, I had a guru-infatuation for a long time and tried finding someone who could encourage me, but that didn't really happen. Instead, many people only preached to me about their own gurus. Someone even directly offered to initiate me, which honestly I thought was rather insulting. There was a lot more emphasis on initiation rather than the siksha relationship between guru/sisya, which I felt was empty and cheap. I felt as if I was getting no reciprocation. I became somewhat frustrated but mostly just heart broken. In the end I was very stubborn about my decision and my internal relationship with my spiritual master grew. I'm initiated now but I don't feel any "closer" after initiation than I did before, which I think is due to the internalised worship of guru. I recommend that. Thats my past experience, which I have drawn from to give Ian that piece of advise, but it is still only my opinion.

[Narasingh]

 

Yeah!!!! I love it. :D:D

 

[Narasingh]

 

Okay, I understand that point as well, it is very valid, but I think young Ian has already set his heart on someone, and that is serious. I think he already has attachment to SNM that is why he is insistent on having association with those who can fan the flames of guru-bhakti.... that is necessary. Whether he was "accepted" as a disciple isn't of importance at this stage, because he is still like you said, "very new". Like when a young girl is in love with a boy, she doesn't mind whether the boy likes her back, she is merely entangled in the wiles of very new or what I call "fresh love". That fresh love or early infatuation is, in the early stage, the only sustenance for itself, until it matures and develops into something more significant.

I can disclose in my personal experience, I had a guru-infatuation for a long time and tried finding someone who could encourage me, but that didn't really happen. Instead, many people only preached to me about their own gurus. Someone even directly offered to initiate me, which honestly I thought was rather insulting. There was a lot more emphasis on initiation rather than the siksha relationship between guru/sisya, which I felt was empty and cheap. I felt as if I was getting no reciprocation. I became somewhat frustrated but mostly just heart broken. In the end I was very stubborn about my decision and my internal relationship with my spiritual master grew. I'm initiated now but I don't feel any "closer" after initiation than I did before, which I think is due to the internalized worship of guru. I recommend that. Thats my past experience, which I have drawn from to give Ian that piece of advise, but it is still only my opinion.

I respect your perspective. My perspective comes from the position that; we never know what the future holds for us. One never knows when the Lord chooses to end our earthly term. If Srila Narayan Maharaj were to be taken from this world to continue his Guru-Seva elsewhere with no notice given, our Ian will still be where he is. He'd likely still appreciate the current association he is receiving and continue to search for more of their ilk. When someone is non-receptive, a propounding stance generally is deemed offensive. May Sri Guru Gauranga have mercy on us all.

[gHari]

Well, golly gee, I guess I'm supposed to apologize or defend myself or something here. But them's my thoughts - and I respect my thoughts. I would offer someone nothing less. Never been too diplomatic where Krsna is concerned. Should I have said nothing? It appears not, because my fingers typed it. And I trust my fingers too. Why live if I don't live my truth? It's my truth not yours I'm afraid. Anyway, I was impelled to write, and that is what I wrote. Telling me what I can or cannot write seems just a bit presumptuous. It is certainly not part of my sadhana. Yet.