I think i am completely wrong about God, being atheist sucks

[sambya1]

you didnt understand me at all ................when i said 'collective' i didnt mean for each and every individual on this planet . vedic philosophy is meant or written for everyone but it also recognises the diversity in beliefs and religions across the world. of course every individual cannot follow a same path !! but by recognising this fundamental truth of human behaviour vedic thought has outshone other contemporary religions.

 

now you might say that im glorifying vedic thought above the rest . yes thats true , its my faith and this is also a hindu spiritual forum . but that doesnt imply that im degrading other faiths.

 

 

You are providing a personal opinion explaining the purpose of the Vedic religion. Personal opinions differ from individual to individual.

 

ok !! you tell me why do you think concepts such as dharma ,artha, kama, moksha , bramacharya ,grihasta , vanaprashta , sannyasa were formulated when the sages already knew that kama or artha can never be the end . i would be happy to hear your perspective........

 

 

So if anyone disagrees with you, does that make that person a sectarian?

 

no !! obviously !!! but when the person differing from any veiw openly criticises and condemms that belief , yes !!!!

 

 

You consider anyone who does not follow Vedic religion to be sectarian.

 

NO !!!!

 

 

You wrote that you get irritated when someone points out flaws.

 

you yourself indicated that everything is relative in this world. what may be flaw in my eyes may be the sole truth in someone else's. its not about fault finding only , its about disrespecting , condemming , criticising blaspheming etc.

 

 

Why not be tolerant towards those people and give them respect instead of denouncing people who disagree?

 

 

exactly !!!!!!!!! you have summarised my thinking !!!

 

sadly many people dont do that and its them that i criticise back .

 

 

 

Are you sure that Vedas can be practiced by every Tom, Dick and Sally!!?

 

once again---- vedas are meant for everyone but not enforced on anyone . this , you are failing to understand.......

[sambya1]

 

Are you ever going to answer the questions I put to you

i already did that to the best of my capacities and now you are free to interpret or understand to the best of your capacities.

 

 

What difference does it make?

actually it does .

 

most sectarians ive met till date openly preach sectarian thoughts but doesnt want to be branded as such and shirk away from being labelled . they like to be called open and broad minded . maybe this is he result of the so called 'secular' 'democratic' education that they have recieved since childhood which they cannot ignore. but you are perhaps the first person ive met who is confidant in your own sectarian belief and agressively defends it.

 

this is a rare incident and i would like to know which creed or sect you follow . this would give me a greater understanding of such a glorious faith which can produce so strong willed followers (hard to find in most spiritual paths also) and help enrich my experiences .

 

and i would be gratefull if you can explain me your veiws regaurding how a sectarian religion be of collective benefit to mankind and whether it would be right to term such a belief , religion at all.

[Amlesh]

Sambya1:

You consider yourself to be counted out of the sectarian cluster.

 

How?

[sambya1]

 

Sambya1:

You consider yourself to be counted out of the sectarian cluster.

 

How?

 

ive already answered that ............ as everything in this world is relative and not absolute anyone who follows a particular path might be termed sectarian .

 

its obvious that the follower would love his path most . that automatically implies that he would not be able to love other paths equally . and that , may be understood as a type of sectarianism . in this sense there can be no true nonsectarian person . a politician loves his party most , a social worker likes charity most , a spiritual candidate loves meditation most etc.

 

thus in its finer aspect we all are sectarian . but when we say sectarian in gross sense of term , as used in day to day life , we mean one who openly critisises other beleifs. i try to refrain from doing that and hence think myself to be not a gross sectarian. when i do criticise its only because those individuals themselves criticised others.maybe i do it with the hope that they might realize that it feels really bad to have your cherised belief ot ideal blasphemised and thus stop doing that for others .

[Amlesh]

In some way or the other, even I do wag my tongue in a critical way from time to time.

Loving one's own path is not the reason for sectarian being... when one's own path does not uphold all other paths globally.. the sectarian conflicts automatically crops up.

[chandu_69]

 

I am confused by your posts.

The sole purpose of this fellow is to spam this forum.

 

i exposed this fraud who goes by the id sambya at http://www.indiadivine.org/audarya/spiritual-discussions/449697-marriages-gods-3.html.

a careful reading of his posts especially this comment("surely there can be no contradictions in one single book for it would have been always under scrutiny of one single person") reveals where he is coming from.

[sambya1]

 

In some way or the other, even I do wag my tongue in a critical way from time to time.

actually being critical is not altogether bad . its true that all religions having some shortcomings . all religions have a particular unique message that ensures its existence. for example madhur bhava may be present in all hindu sects but nowhere is it so prominent as in vishnava faiths. so if i make a critical analysis of tantra ( for example) and say that it does not have the fullest expression of madhur bhava thats not sectarianism . but if i say that because tantra doesnt excel in madhur bhava its all but incomplete or wrong , then it would amount to sectarianism .here it should be noted that matribhav ( percieving god as mother ) finds its fullest expression in tantra not in vaishnavas . every faith has its own distinguishable charateristics . these distinct thoughts are its own contribution to the world. the day the necessity of that thought vanishes the religion automatically vanishes or subsides.

 

constructive criticisms are not bad.

[sambya1]

 

i exposed this fraud who goes by the id sambya at Marriages of GODS.

 

 

 

thats quite a spectacular achievement !!!! why dont you open a voluntary investigating agency all over the internet ...............................................................

[Amlesh]

 

actually being critical is not altogether bad . its true that all religions having some shortcomings . all religions have a particular unique message that ensures its existence. for example madhur bhava may be present in all hindu sects but nowhere is it so prominent as in vishnava faiths. so if i make a critical analysis of tantra ( for example) and say that it does not have the fullest expression of madhur bhava thats not sectarianism . but if i say that because tantra doesnt excel in madhur bhava its all but incomplete or wrong , then it would amount to sectarianism .here it should be noted that matribhav ( percieving god as mother ) finds its fullest expression in tantra not in vaishnavas . every faith has its own distinguishable charateristics . these distinct thoughts are its own contribution to the world. the day the necessity of that thought vanishes the religion automatically vanishes or subsides.

 

constructive criticisms are not bad.

Agreed.

The only thing is that in the Bhagwata Dharma, nothing is really prominent or secondary.

The essence of each and every type of individual ranging from the different types of consciousness is thoroughly expounded. The tantric ways et al have themselves with glimpses of God since they are attracted to the external energies more.

The Bhagwata Dharma teaches one with all the different facets of God and ultimately unites man to God in a desired relationship.

Glimpses of religion can be found in all the particular sect.

But at the feet of Sri Krishna, all those boundaries are cleared.

What you might see with the Iskonites is not necessarily the total depiction of Bhagwata Dharma.

All your assertions on Vaishnavism originated from the behavior of some particular groups and not the essence of the doctrine in itself.

[Justin]

 

you didnt understand me at all ................when i said 'collective' i didnt mean for each and every individual on this planet . vedic philosophy is meant or written for everyone but it also recognises the diversity in beliefs and religions across the world. of course every individual cannot follow a same path !! but by recognising this fundamental truth of human behaviour vedic thought has outshone other contemporary religions.

 

now you might say that im glorifying vedic thought above the rest . yes thats true , its my faith and this is also a hindu spiritual forum . but that doesnt imply that im degrading other faiths.

 

Forget about Vedic religion vs. other religion which you are trying to divert the conversation to. Let me clarify again - if I find flaws in your belief do you feel disgusted? (which you said you would if anyone criticizes). If there are several loopholes in a faith I may have to condemn it for it is pointless in following a lovely religion that has elements of deception that some will never find out. Will you label me as sectarian in the above cases? If the answer is 'Yes', then you are consistent with your earlier posts and also you become a sectarian by your very logic. If the answer is 'No', then you have self-contradicted yourself.

[raghu]

 

i already did that to the best of my capacities and now you are free to interpret or understand to the best of your capacities.

 

No, you basically ignored all my questions and continued to spew your strawman white-wash about sectarianism. But that is fine. I was not expecting anything particularly honest or thought-provoking from you. I just wanted it to be clear where you stood when your beliefs are being questioned.

[sambya1]

 

Let me clarify again - if I find flaws in your belief do you feel disgusted?

 

no ! obviously !!! no faith is free from faults and its your own wish to find it out and reflect upon it . freedom of thought !!!

 

 

(which you said you would if anyone criticizes)

 

do you feel that 'criticising' and 'fault finding' are synonymous terms ? one is free to mentally speculate the faults and leave the religion aside for others to follow in case it doesnt suit to his taste but publicly criticising it is not good.

 

 

If there are several loopholes in a faith I may have to condemn it

 

oh !!!!!!!!! so is that what you believe ? then why get angry ? thats exactly what i did in this thread . surely your ideals are universally and not selectively applicable ??

 

 

for it is pointless in following a lovely religion that has elements of deception that some will never find out.

 

what may look like deception to you may not be deception to others . and what may not be deception to you may be verily the worst deception to others. or are you trying to suggest that there is only a small group of people like you who can successfully point out true deceptors ???!!!!!!!!

 

 

Will you label me as sectarian in the above cases?

 

no ---- if you merely think , realise , believe in your own ideas.

yes---- if you publicly go about proclaiming the inferiority of some paricular religion and attempt to convert its followers into your belief.

[Justin]

 

no ! obviously !!! no faith is free from faults and its your own wish to find it out and reflect upon it . freedom of thought !!!

Why are you following your religion when you yourself say it is faulty?

 

 

do you feel that 'criticising' and 'fault finding' are synonymous terms ?

You are backtracking on your earlier posts. You said that you cannot tolerate criticism and now you are trying to put a different spin on it.

 

 

one is free to mentally speculate the faults and leave the religion aside for others to follow in case it doesnt suit to his taste but publicly criticising it is not good.

Person A tries to fool people by doing magic tricks in the name of religion and takes away their hard earned money. B tries to preach new age rubbish and calls it absolute religious truth. C has decided to kill others in the name of religion. He believes he will achieve liberation by doing so.

 

Do you mentally speculate their faults and leave them aside or do you step up to the plate and condemn them?

 

 

oh !!!!!!!!! so is that what you believe ? then why get angry ? thats exactly what i did in this thread . surely your ideals are universally and not selectively applicable ??

What happened to your tolerance on my beliefs! Now you are going against your own funda and started calling my ideals as 'not applicable'. Can't you accept my flawed thinking and mentally speculate instead of writing against my belief in public in this forum?

 

 

what may look like deception to you may not be deception to others . and what may not be deception to you may be verily the worst deception to others.

True what appears to be deception to one may not appear for others. So if I find something to be deceptive you suggest I keep keep my mouth shut, mentally speculate and wear bangles?

 

 

no ---- if you merely think , realise , believe in your own ideas.

yes---- if you publicly go about proclaiming the inferiority of some paricular religion and attempt to convert its followers into your belief.

REading the posts from the begining, no one tried to push their beliefs to you and tried to convert you. Yet you started writing that you do not tolerate their views. By striking against their beliefs and writing in this forum you have publicly proclaimed the beliefs of others as illogical. Next time do not say yes or no. Just keep it inside and let it go. Otherwise you will end up contradicting yourself.

[Amlesh]

 

So you think it would be better if we didn't offer the food?

 

There are deeper meanings in Sambya sayings. Unfortunately, few can understand that.

 

 

You understand that devotees on Food for Life don't preach to the people they serve?

 

That the way it should be.

 

 

Iskcon also do not ask or expect anything in return.

 

that's what you think.

I'm forced to say that Sambya sees many things...more than many Vaishnavas I've seen.

 

 

 

 

You seem to be criticising something you know nothing about.

He knows.

Though philosophically we don't tally much and even if we've participated in many heated debates.. I should admit that he has the eye to see the things AS IT IS.

He also has the manly guts to admit some of the frailties in his path. Who is the man to accept all that these days.

[sambya]

 

Why are you following your religion when you yourself say it is faulty?

firstly , for your understanding , i said that i believe all religions do have some elements of fault in them . mine own is also not an exception but i follow it because i feel that it is closest to my heart and i can directly relate to its veiws and theories.

You are backtracking on your earlier posts. You said that you cannot tolerate criticism and now you are trying to put a different spin on it.

no , im not . its only that you did not get the right understanding of my first posts .

Person A tries to fool people by doing magic tricks in the name of religion and takes away their hard earned money. B tries to preach new age rubbish and calls it absolute religious truth. C has decided to kill others in the name of religion. He believes he will achieve liberation by doing so.

 

Do you mentally speculate their faults and leave them aside or do you step up to the plate and condemn them?

 

most defintely , i condemn them in my mind but not publically . if i want to save the follwers of such a faith i would silently talk to them about correct spirituality , methods of choosing a guru , aims in human life etc without ever going into analysations of their path and expect that they realise their mistakes and rectify it , instead of erecting a public platform and shouting over microphone that all of them are following a bogus guru . for if i would have done the latter it would have hurt the already mislead people and might even make them more staunch followers of their misleading paths .

but even after my efforts if someone is happy to pursue that path i would silently leave him realising that time has not yet come for deep spirituality in his life . all he wants is religious ritualistic life or cheap remedies to personal problems .

Quote:

<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(102, 102, 102); padding-left: 3ex; padding-right: 3ex;" bgcolor="#e0e0e0"> oh !!!!!!!!! so is that what you believe ? then why get angry ? thats exactly what i did in this thread . surely your ideals are universally and not selectively applicable ?? </td> </tr> </tbody></table>

What happened to your tolerance on my beliefs! Now you are going against your own funda and started calling my ideals as 'not applicable'. Can't you accept my flawed thinking and mentally speculate instead of writing against my belief in public in this forum?

ha ha !!!!! youre badly confused here..............

in the begining i just mentioned some points or features that i personally dislike of iskcon . its then that you came up defending iskcon's stand . then you said the if you feel that there are several loopholes in a theory you have to condemn it . reading this i wrote back thats exactly what i did in the begining . i personally thought that there are some loopholes in this 'food for life' thing and mentioned my thought . so this is completely in accordance with your own ideals . so wouldnt your ideal be equally applicable all over and to everyone ?

 

 

True what appears to be deception to one may not appear for others. So if I find something to be deceptive you suggest I keep keep my mouth shut, mentally speculate and wear bangles?

 

direct and public proclamation of anything demands the proof of its existence . proof means that which is true to eyes and senses of the majority of beholders . but sadly in things like spirituality there is no proper majority . people differ by wide angles . so truth as percieved by one might not be truth as percieved by another. deception as percieved by one may not be deception as percieved by another. this makes such concepts as truth , deceptions etc relative (grossly speaking ) .

 

now from this relative standpoint can any logical individual shout abuses or condemn or criticise others ? obviously i wouldnt mind if you want to stay out of the list of 'logical individuals' !!!

 

 

 

REading the posts from the begining, no one tried to push their beliefs to you and tried to convert you.

ans--REading the posts from the begining, no one tried to push their beliefs to you and tried to convert you. why did you step up into this argument ? i merely expressed my personal opinions about iskcon's food for life .

 

 

Yet you started writing that you do not tolerate their views.

i dont tolerate those who have never been educated on how to tolerate .

 

infact 'tolerate' is again a derogatory term . when i say 'i tolerate ' it automatically implies that although i dislike other religions i dont raise a voice.

a nobler term would be ' i respect ' which would mean that although i love my own faith the most , i respect all other beliefs also .

 

 

By striking against their beliefs and writing in this forum you have publicly proclaimed the beliefs of others as illogical.

by striking against their belief that they can do almost anything to derogate and demean other thought systems i have attempted to show them where they lack ....

 

advice--- Just keep it inside and let it go. Otherwise you will end up contradicting and confusing yourself.

[sambya]

thanks amalesh . jai raghunath

[Justin]

 

firstly , for your understanding , i said that i believe all religions do have some elements of fault in them . mine own is also not an exception but i follow it because i feel that it is closest to my heart and i can directly relate to its veiws and theories.

You may speak for yourself and admit your religion is faulty. But please do not speak for everyone else. Have you studied any other school of thought other than Vivekananda's politically correct opinions? Out of many religions you cannot preclude the possibility that one among them is the correct one. When you have no knowledge of different schools of thought within Hinduism itself, you obviously cannot say for sure that every philosophy/religion has flaws. Reading some new age illogical stuff taught by modern godmen obviously leads to such world views and does not promote any logical thinking.

 

 

no , im not . its only that you did not get the right understanding of my first posts .

Here are your quotes in the previous posts (see post # 71 and the rest) as a refresher. You seem to have a knack of contradicting yourself each time:

 

"i dont tolerate those who have never been educated on how to tolerate .

infact 'tolerate' is again a derogatory term . when i say 'i tolerate ' it automatically implies that although i dislike other religions i dont raise a voice."

 

"but at the same time i dont want anybody to criticise other peoples much cherished beliefs ."

 

"how can a religion ( or belief ) that creates sectarianism and rifts in the society be of any collective benefit to the mankind ?"

 

 

most defintely , i condemn them in my mind but not publically .

Keeping quiet against criminals (whether religious or not) only encourages them even more. There will no law and order in your kind of society. you have said all religions are equally valid and you respect them. And then you criticise other religions saying other religions are sectarian. You say you do not tolerate people who criticise. Is this not a criticism of people who criticise? I must say that you lack scientific and rational logic.

 

 

ha ha !!!!! youre badly confused here..............

in the begining i just mentioned some points or features that i personally dislike of iskcon . its then that you came up defending iskcon's stand . then you said the if you feel that there are several loopholes in a theory you have to condemn it . reading this i wrote back thats exactly what i did in the begining . i personally thought that there are some loopholes in this 'food for life' thing and mentioned my thought . so this is completely in accordance with your own ideals . so wouldnt your ideal be equally applicable all over and to everyone ?

Who is confused here ha ha!!! I am not from Iskcon and am not defending your attacks against them. You have thrown many stones at them and condemned other religions before. I was just having a debate and tried to show the loopholes and the lack of logic in your posts particularly post #71 and the rest that followed from Vivekananda's cookbook.

[sambya]

 

You may speak for yourself and admit your religion is faulty. But please do not speak for everyone else.

try to understand why im saying this . this is not to hurt anyone . god is ifinite and absolute and cannot be known in totallity . even sages like narada didnot know him totally . what to speak of human gurus . each saint realizes a part of the supreme . thats why all religions have flaws .

 

 

When you have no knowledge of different schools of thought within Hinduism itself, you obviously cannot say for sure that every philosophy/religion has flaws. Reading some new age illogical stuff taught by modern godmen obviously leads to such world views and does not promote any logical thinking.

which place do you belong to? im an indian and have been reared in india .moreover we are goswamis by title and know vaishnav doctrines since childhood. i was in touch with iskcon and few of its foremost disciples (not naming anyone) for more than 7 years .

 

 

Here are your quotes in the previous posts (see post # 71 and the rest) as a refresher. You seem to have a knack of contradicting yourself each time:

you lack in common understanding capabilities . im sorry but your method forced me to say this.

 

not tolerating someone who promotes intolerance cannot be intolerance atall . just like asking something from god is not good in sadhana but asking bhakti is not bad at all . it does not amount to asking something in return ( though theoritically it is indeed about asking bhakti in return) .

 

 

Keeping quiet against criminals (whether religious or not) only encourages them even more.

no one is criminal here . they might be termed as deceptors. but then again how do you determine one ?

 

Is this not a criticism of people who criticise

YES !!!!!!!!!!!!!!! it is !!!!!!!!! thats what im saying . but criticisn someone for regularly criticising others cannot be criticism proper .just as asking for bhakti from god is not like asking something in return in strict sense of term .

 

hope you understand...........

 

 

I am not from Iskcon...........

what path do you follow !????!!! im curious to know the origin of such entertaining intelligence .

[visnujana]

 

Anyway, atheism truly makes one miserable, maybe there is a better way.

I think so. Will a child be happy being separated from his parents? Or he will feel better in loving embrace of his caring and protective parents?

I will certainly agree it's a question of faith. If my faith in God is shallow, mere theoretical understanding of these things won't help much. I will also agree that the process of cultivating faith does take time. But anyway this seems to be the only solution to me, and I do believe it is natural, i.e.in complete perfect harmony with the soul's intrinsic eternal nature. The good thing also is that there IS a scientific process of developing the faith. I do believe that if I choose take to the process every little step forward will make me feel better, since I will realize more that God is nothing other than truly loving Father... and He is powerful enough.. so if He does like me I should have no problem ever.

I'd like to finish on a little practical personal and frankly note. I have tried practicing faith in God (Krishna consciousness) for some 15-20 years now, not much). I think it's great and I am very happy with the results!

[Justin]

 

which place do you belong to?

how is this helpful to you? This shows a weakness that you cannot discuss with another without knowing a members whereabouts. If I were to ask you these questions will you answer? I bet NO.

 

Which place in India are you from?

What is your full real name as in your passport?

What is your date of birth?

 

 

you lack in common understanding capabilities . im sorry but your method forced me to say this.

I am sorry but you are falling for your feel good theory you were preaching before

 

 

not tolerating someone who promotes intolerance cannot be intolerance atall . just like asking something from god is not good in sadhana but asking bhakti is not bad at all . it does not amount to asking something in return ( though theoritically it is indeed about asking bhakti in return) .

Now you are changing your color again

 

 

no one is criminal here . they might be termed as deceptors. but then again how do you determine one ?

I do not know if any criminals are roaming in this forum. Possibly. But I was talking about the actual criminals who commit bad deeds.

 

YES !!!!!!!!!!!!!!! it is !!!!!!!!! thats what im saying . but criticisn someone for regularly criticising others cannot be criticism proper .just as asking for bhakti from god is not like asking something in return in strict sense of term .

 

hope you understand...........

No. But never mind.

 

 

what path do you follow !????!!! im curious to know the origin of such entertaining intelligence .

how will this info be of help to you? The glorious path and sampradaya I follow is beyond your understanding.

[Beggar]

 

The glorious path and sampradaya I follow is beyond your understanding.

And it is beyond Justin's understanding also, otherwise if it was so easy, then how would it be glorious?

[Justin]

And it is beyond Justin's understanding also, otherwise if it was so easy, then how would it be glorious?

beggar swamin, you and I follow the same glorious tradition. So why break the faith

[Beggar]

 

beggar swamin, you and I follow the same glorious tradition. So why break the faith

 

Canto 10: The Summum

Bonum Chapter 14: Brahmā's Prayers to Lord Kṛṣṇa Bhaktivedanta VedaBase: Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 10.14.38

 

 

jānanta eva jānantu

kiḿ bahūktyā na me prabho

manaso vapuṣo vāco

vaibhavaḿ tava go-caraḥ

 

SYNONYMS

jānantaḥ — persons who think they are aware of Your unlimited potency; eva — certainly; jānantu — let them think like that; kim — what is the use; bahu-uktyā — with many words; na — not; me — my; prabho — O Lord; manasaḥ — of the mind; vapuṣaḥ — of the body; vācaḥ — of the words; vaibhavam — opulences; tava — Your; go-caraḥ — within the range.

 

 

TRANSLATION

There are people who say, "I know everything about Kṛṣṇa." Let them think that way. As far as I am concerned, I do not wish to speak very much about this matter. O my Lord, let me say this much: As far as Your opulences are concerned, they are all beyond the reach of my mind, body and words.

 

 

PURPORT

This translation is quoted from Śrīla Prabhupāda's Caitanya-caritāmṛta, Madhya-līla, Chapter Twenty-one, Text 27.

[sambya]

 

how is this helpful to you? This shows a weakness that you cannot discuss with another without knowing a members whereabouts. If I were to ask you these questions will you answer? I bet NO.

 

Which place in India are you from?

What is your full real name as in your passport?

What is your date of birth?

 

 

well ! i have no intention of speaking about my lineage and stuff . i did that only because you claimed that i know nothing of indian culture and its sampradayas , when actually i belong to the very land where the sampradaya that you are possibly following originated .

 

i didnt ask for your exact place with latitude and longitude marks. i'll correct the question and put it once more -- are you an indian or not ?

 

 

how will this info be of help to you? The glorious path and sampradaya I follow is beyond your understanding

it will , for sure !!!

 

i need not understand or study the sampradaya , mere mention of the name would suffice .

 

it would help me to check out if ive missed out on any sampradaya existing in bengal or india.