Reviving the Soma ritual

[sambya1]

 

I see the vedic appearance as, a great pinnacle in consciousness evolution as a collective. The indigenous shamanic traditions may have evolved alongside vedic culture...but as we know inter-connection is a truth.

 

hi bija,

 

thats what i meant . maybe i couldnt express myself to you . its very natural for shamanistic and occult practises to exist alongside vedic philosophy 4000 years ago . both infuenced each other and finally got merged together and that might have given rise to early vedic thought .

 

much like todays shaktism . the vedic savitri , saraswati etc got fused with all the local dravidian , rural and tribal deities like shitala , manasa , sarvamangala etc and formed the concept of the 'single mother' or shakti who is the essenstial power of all male deities.

 

its might have been a amalgamation of the two schools(the philosophical one of the rishis and shamanistic one of the shamans) . but to say that it was pimarily a shamanistic religion at its begining is ludicrous .

[Kulapavana]

In some natural cultures (Australian Aborigenees for example) the state of shamanic trance is obtained without any hallucinogens, through sacred chant and dance. Aborigenees danced in special places which were doorways to the Dreamtime. They were rhytmically striking the ground with their heels, calling on the spirits of their ancestors to open the gate, chanting sacred songs to transform their consciousness and enable it to enter the Dreamtime.

 

Kirtan is meant for us to experience spiritual reality, where the sacred sound of the Holy Name is identical with God. The reason Srila Prabhupada's kirtans were such a hit with the hippies was that they were open to this extrasensory reality, and his chanting was pure and potent. They had genuine shamanic journeys into the extrasensory world of the Holy Name.

 

Alas, we have lost that type of primeval magic in our movement...

[bija]

It will come back hopefully.

 

Last year Kula I went to see Amma in the city. The next day went to Melbourne temple for mangala arati and kirtan. I only visit temples a couple of times a year. That mornings kirtan transported me to a place of unity. We were spinning wildly as one...with no dizziness like the whilrling sufi. The trance was very deep...with many subtle insights.

 

I have not met many devotees to discuss these things, but that morning I knew these young bhaktas were on the path to profound substance free God consciousness.. and through that I could see the greatness of the modern sankirtan, and its relevance for intelligent pure young men and woman of today.

[Kulapavana]

 

Why would make the tradition shallow? it is a fact that shamans wo uses these plants indeed have reached some of the same levels of counciousness as vedic enlighted masters, if you read the story about Maria Sabina it clearly proves my case she has great telephatic abilities and healing powers something that shows her high level of counciousness.

If the psychedelic experience was hollow how can it lead to such powers?

 

 

Soma-ji... it is a lot more complex than that. I have studied shamanic practices and they have many, many layers.

 

Most halucinogenic plants lead our consciousness towards the lower worlds, some (especially those from the Solanacea family) leading into the lowest stratas of the Universe, with great risk of death or separation from the physical body of the shaman. Soma was different... it lead to the higher worlds.

 

The telepathic abilities are the effect of being able to read the akhas (ether) which stores the image of every thought, every feeling, and every physical act that took place, is taking place, or is contemplated to take place. Even many evil spirits can read akhas.

 

The yogis achieved the shamanic trance through meditation. Shivaite masters sometimes communicate with their Naaga guides using ganja, but these are still lower worlds. They may have great powers but it is not quite the spirituality of our Vaishnava tradition.

[Kulapavana]

 

..that morning I knew these young bhaktas were on the path to profound substance free God consciousness.. and through that I could see the greatness of the modern sankirtan, and its relevance for intelligent pure young men and woman of today.

 

Yes, it still happens here and there. I see it now and then as well. I think part of the reason is the lack of good kirtan leaders and drummers. The beat of the drum is the most important instrumental part of the kirtan. Often it is too irregular and weak to help anybody with reaching the trance. We need to really 'go native' on that one, go aboriginal...

[bija]

yes sir we do need to...

[sambya1]

in this context i am remembering an old phenomenon in bengal and eastern india. im not quite sure if that's equally there in other parts of india as well ( i think they do) . its about cases when a person becomes 'possesed' by some god or deity . not evil ones i mean .the person might start rolling in dust with groans and frantic shaking of heads etc. they are known to prophecise and have healing , thought reading powers as long this continues . and the moment the 'god' leaves his or her body he comes back to normal but dazed state . while this was very common in old bengal nowadays it is rarer and more of a rural thing . its more prevalent in financially and educationally weaker sections of the society and victims are mostly women .

 

although most cases are false pretence some are indeed intriguing . and most of such cases happen on occassion of some puja ceremony , public or private . mostly it happens with shakta deities showing occult influence on modern tantra. in fact one or two such incident might actually help establish that the deity is indeed 'alive' in course of the puja or festival.

 

what might this be ? what do you guys think the psychology behind this ?

[Soma Juice]

 

my meaning in saying 'higher levels of conciousness' is actually 'highest level of conciousness' . yes , shamans do have higher conciousness levels than an ordinary human which is self evident through their psychic powers . but remember that telepathy or healing has nothing to do with spirituality and neither is a denoter of 'highest levels' . on the 'highest levels' such things become idiotic to a true spiritual aspirant .

 

 

okay.. the only point i want to make is that these plants indeed can be used for spiritual purposes just like chant, kirtan and meditation.

 

 

although its true that a spiritual person might aqquire some psychic powers while his sadhana . its also true that some spiritual disciplines like the vamamarga of tantra have well defined rituals of attaining this highest state through the use of intoxicants. and there have been real good spiritually advanced persons in such paths also . but the principle target of these sadhaks were always attaining the supreme not healing , prophesising or similar paranormal powers .

[/qoute]

no i agree, the purpuse is allways attaining the highest state all im saying is that the telepathy and healing is a proof that they somehow have attained some kind of enlightenment.

 

 

Who can really say that with proof?

why would it devalue it and rank it with other primitive religions? do i hear a contempt for these religions why is it negative? why would it devalue it if it startet as somekind of shamanic religion... why would it even matter? the important issue is what it evolved into!

The very very first signs of vedic religion had to spring from religions from before india was a civilzation and that pretty much means shamanism in some form.

As i see it shamanism was the first religion of the world, if you look at isolated tribes you will find many similarities all over the world

African, American, Asian, Australian, European poeple have all in some time of their history had shamanistic religions and the poeple who have succeded in living in isolation still have! undependent on what part of the earth they are from.

 

 

 

no no no not at all, all im saying is that soma obviously played a roll in the establishment of the culture, the culture evovled greatly and through all the beautifull traditions that now are so strong we have great spiritual knowledge!

I am neither saying that everything couldnt have been without the soma!

 

 

Then please define to me what you see as a spiritual experience.

For me a spiritual is simply contact in any form with the never changing!

 

 

The search of inner peace and the fail of materialistic culture was the root and the factor that created the hippie movement of the 60'ies and 70'ies

and it was also the reasons many people broke with conventional ways and took LSD! and through the mass distrubtion many experienced something greater than them self which eventually triggered a spiritual quest like you see it with Ram Dass and Bhagavan Das

 

 

 

is taken from this article

www maps org/news-letters/v11n2/11243pal html

[Narasingh]

I'm aware that there is a carefully portioned mix of datura and ganja, in a milk based lassi which is used as a spiritual elixir in India. It is not bhang. I'm not sure if this is Soma.

 

Heaven and Hell, Upper and Lower are both foreign ie. not local. If one could release themselves from their locality and travel, going down would also allow one to go elsewhere for in that relativity of going to the lower depths from locality one may understand and experience higher reaches through opposites. The greater the difficulty, the greater the relief.

 

As the Isa Upanishad states:

vidyam cavidyam ca yas

tad vedobhayam saha

avidyaya mrtyum tirtva

vidyayamrtam asnute

 

There is, almost invariably, a system for intoxication in every tribal spiritual search. Intoxication is done through plant bases and hallucinogenics or mutilation or fasting etc. Strong hallucinogenic intoxicants can, and commonly do, cause a rift in the mind which displaces the user as a foreigner in the locality, not as a local in locality. Basically all great depths of spiritual search and achievments come from great stresses and difficulties. The Vaishnava practice encourages one to realize their existing stress and difficulties by in-depth analyses of ones existence. Normally, Vaishnavas abstain from foreign intoxicants and practice kirtan, japa, fasting, simple diets, early rising and pranayama. This allows for a harmonious existence within the realities of locality and spiritually higher and lower realms.

 

It is the awareness of our dire existential situation which brings about a heightened spiritual awareness.

[Soma Juice]

 

Soma-ji... it is a lot more complex than that. I have studied shamanic practices and they have many, many layers.

 

Most halucinogenic plants lead our consciousness towards the lower worlds, some (especially those from the Solanacea family) leading into the lowest stratas of the Universe, with great risk of death or separation from the physical body of the shaman. Soma was different... it lead to the higher worlds.

 

The telepathic abilities are the effect of being able to read the akhas (ether) which stores the image of every thought, every feeling, and every physical act that took place, is taking place, or is contemplated to take place. Even many evil spirits can read akhas.

 

The yogis achieved the shamanic trance through meditation. Shivaite masters sometimes communicate with their Naaga guides using ganja, but these are still lower worlds. They may have great powers but it is not quite the spirituality of our Vaishnava tradition.

 

i see! very very interresting! im just a seeker my self trying to solve the puzzle! and i apreciate this forum and the wise folk who inhabit it very much!

 

I would really like to learn about the things you speak where can i find information?

[sambya1]

 

Who can really say that with proof?

why would it devalue it and rank it with other primitive religions? do i hear a contempt for these religions why is it negative? why would it devalue it if it startet as somekind of shamanic religion... why would it even matter? the important issue is what it evolved into!

 

obviously i cannot proove it historically . but i would tend to disagree with it beacause shamanistic traditions and vedic tradition differ greatly.

 

its not about speaking negative . its about proclaiming vedic religion as superior over the rest . all religions hold some fundamental truth and explore a part of the whole . they also vary according to levels of knowledge . shamanistic religion though not untrue would be a crude concept than the highly refined vedic philosophy.

 

moreover the principle defining point in vedic religion is its deep philosophy which was unique to vedic culture. this was not borrowed from other thoughts . so the bed rock of vedic religion is it own indegenous philosophy. thats why i would refrein from sayin that it had shamanistic roots. if it atall had any shamanitic base it should have fallen of by the time of rig veda . it could have been a kind of evolution or metamorphosis.

[Soma Juice]

 

obviously i cannot proove it historically . but i would tend to disagree with it beacause shamanistic traditions and vedic tradition differ greatly.

 

its not about speaking negative . its about proclaiming vedic religion as superior over the rest . all religions hold some fundamental truth and explore a part of the whole . they also vary according to levels of knowledge . shamanistic religion though not untrue would be a crude concept than the highly refined vedic philosophy.

 

moreover the principle defining point in vedic religion is its deep philosophy which was unique to vedic culture. this was not borrowed from other thoughts . so the bed rock of vedic religion is it own indegenous philosophy. thats why i would refrein from sayin that it had shamanistic roots. if it atall had any shamanitic base it should have fallen of by the time of rig veda . it could have been a kind of evolution or metamorphosis.

 

I actually agree with your points but im not so much into the vedic religion as you so i dont know what you see as spiritualty and stuff like that. so i guess we kind of misunderstood each other! I just take my thoughts and channel them out on this forum to get them redefined and improved! since i have no way of meeting a guru at the present moment (i live on the country side in Denmark )

[bija]

 

what do you guys think the psychology behind this ? by sambya

 

Great question!

[bija]

 

Who can really say that with proof?

why would it devalue it and rank it with other primitive religions? do i hear a contempt for these religions why is it negative? why would it devalue it if it startet as somekind of shamanic religion... why would it even matter? the important issue is what it evolved into!

The very very first signs of vedic religion had to spring from religions from before india was a civilzation and that pretty much means shamanism in some form.

As i see it shamanism was the first religion of the world, if you look at isolated tribes you will find many similarities all over the world

African, American, Asian, Australian, European poeple have all in some time of their history had shamanistic religions and the poeple who have succeded in living in isolation still have! undependent on what part of the earth they are from. by somajuice

 

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[bija]

 

I'm aware that there is a carefully portioned mix of datura and ganja, in a milk based lassi which is used as a spiritual elixir in India. It is not bhang. I'm not sure if this is Soma.

 

Heaven and Hell, Upper and Lower are both foreign ie. not local. If one could release themselves from their locality and travel, going down would also allow one to go elsewhere for in that relativity of going to the lower depths from locality one may understand and experience higher reaches through opposites. The greater the difficulty, the greater the relief.

 

As the Isa Upanishad states:

vidyam cavidyam ca yas

tad vedobhayam saha

avidyaya mrtyum tirtva

vidyayamrtam asnute

 

There is, almost invariably, a system for intoxication in every tribal spiritual search. Intoxication is done through plant bases and hallucinogenics or mutilation or fasting etc. Strong hallucinogenic intoxicants can, and commonly do, cause a rift in the mind which displaces the user as a foreigner in the locality, not as a local in locality. Basically all great depths of spiritual search and achievments come from great stresses and difficulties. The Vaishnava practice encourages one to realize their existing stress and difficulties by in-depth analyses of ones existence. Normally, Vaishnavas abstain from foreign intoxicants and practice kirtan, japa, fasting, simple diets, early rising and pranayama. This allows for a harmonious existence within the realities of locality and spiritually higher and lower realms.

 

It is the awareness of our dire existential situation which brings about a heightened spiritual awareness. by narasingh

 

you are a gem:)

[Soma Juice]

Bija thank you very much for the link!! it seems very interesting!

[bija]

your welcome....the video has a good message worthy of sharing.

[theist]

 

many evidences from the rig veda and from research says it is not cannabis at least not alone, the soma plant was pressed and and a milky substance was extractet. It would be a very not effecient way to coonsume cannabis.

 

 

 

Perhaps the som plant (ephedra) was not pressed but another ingredient, poppy, was.

[bija]

there is some preparation of herbs in africa that is pounded until a white foam appears...the foam is then ingested.

[kaisersose]

It is possible that the final juice was more a concoction than exclusively drawn from a single type of plant.

 

We should also note that 3500 years is an awfully long time and the plant breeds would have changed - sometimes very significantly. The American eggplant has transformed itself a lot in just 100 years.

 

But if the Soma was as highly valued as has been written, it is very unlikely that it would disappear. If anything, it should have become more widely available.

 

Cheers

[Soma Juice]

 

Perhaps the som plant (ephedra) was not pressed but another ingredient, poppy, was.

but then poppy would be the soma plant and the rig veda says that the stalks of the soma plant was pressed so it would not make sense i think. And as said before the soma connectet the preist to the some higher plane maybe the higher planes and ephedra is just a simple stimulant with very little spiritual potiential.

[pandora]

i also think at how intresting plant with medicinal property play a role in many religions and cultures, even in hinduisim ie soma. but i also cant help to think that the reason why we have lost this plant/ritual is cause maybe god didnt want it around anymore. i bekive this cause if u look at hinduisim it is differennt from most religion that are around today in that it has countinuesly evolved..............i guess that why hinduisim has survived for so long.

[Soma Juice]

why would god take away the greatest and most benefical plant on the planet?

[theist]

 

but then poppy would be the soma plant and the rig veda says that the stalks of the soma plant was pressed so it would not make sense i think. And as said before the soma connectet the preist to the some higher plane maybe the higher planes and ephedra is just a simple stimulant with very little spiritual potiential.

 

 

No it would not make poppy som but just another ingredient. As I have learned and repeated here Som is still a common drink in the Kyber pass region and is called som. I saw a special on PBS where Micheal Woods traveled to the region in search of the Soma as described in the Rig Veda and he visted herbalists in the area that showed him the Som plant and gave him some and also told him the recipe for the Soma Juice which called for Som, (Ma Huang they showed the actual plant and I recognized it as the same) Cannabis and Poppy seed. I speculate the poppy seed was not used but rather the opiate juice extracted from the plant.

 

 

In any case there is no such thing as a plant that will bestow enlightenment. That is Krishna's perogative exlusively.

[Narasingh]

 

In any case there is no such thing as a plant that will bestow enlightenment. That is Krishna's prerogative exclusively.

 

There are relative gradations of enlightenment. One of the first stages of enlightenment is the realization of our misidentifying with matter. Another being that the universe is much greater than one's self in that one's self needs to act harmoniously with creation. This is a universally shared concept among all spiritualist. As I've said before, there are things conducive to that understanding. Fasting, Dancing, Prayer, and Kirtan are conducive to Vaishnavas and Ganja, Som, Datura, Peyote, Mutilations, Fasting, are conducive to other branches of spirituality.

 

I'd "bet" that at least 90% of Western Vaishnavas have expiremented at some point with intoxication and have admitted some realizations from it. Can we say that these realizations are bad?

 

Is there such a thing as a plant that Krsna made, which can bestow enlightenment? Can that be His prerogative? It is action in enlightenment which we are striving for. Simply being enlightened is insufficient.

 

The question is, "Can intoxication bring you to perfection"?