The full potential and original feature of all living entitys is a two arm human form

[Sarva gattah]

Srila Prabhupada - "It is the living entity’s constitutional position to be an eternal servant of Krsna because he is the marginal energy of Krsna and a manifestation simultaneously one with and different from the Lord, like a molecular particle of sunshine or fire. Krsna has three varieties of energy" Sri Caitanya Caritamrta Madhya 20.108-109

However, all of Krishna’s marginal ‘sparks’ and so called 'atoms in the effulgence have the same ORIGINAL bodily features like Krishna – sat-cit-ananda-vigraha. The full potential and original feature of all living entities is a two arm human looking form

Yasomatinandana: Is the original body of the spirit soul a human form?

Madhudvisa: The question is that whether the eternal form of the spirit soul is a human form or is it…

Prabhupada: Yes, human form. God is also human form. “Man is made after the shape of God.” I think there is in the Bible. Is it not? So God is also like human form. Here you see Krsna, two hands, two legs.

Hari-sauri: How do we understand, then, that there are peacocks and flowers and trees in the spiritual world? Are these not eternal forms?

Prabhupada [decribing material form first]: Yes. They are more covered. Just like if you cover your body with blanket, the hands and legs are invisible. But you are not the blanket. So the trees and plants, they are more covered. They are not in full manifestation. The human form is the full manifestation of the soul.

Hari-sauri: They are covered in the spiritual world?

Madhudvisa: He is asking if they were actually covered in the spiritual world as well.

Prabhupada: Not in the spiritual world. There that is voluntary. Some devotee wants to serve Krsna as flower; they become flower there. If I want that “As a flower I shall lie down at the lotus feet of Krsna,” he becomes flower, voluntarily.

And he can change his…, from flower to human body. That is spiritual life. There is no restriction. If some devotee wants to serve Krsna as cow, he serves Krsna as cow, as calf, as flower, as plant, as water, as ground, field, or as father, as mother, as friend, as beloved, anything.

Ye yatha mam prapadyante tams tathaiva bhajamy aham [bg. 4.11]. That is Krsna’s all-powerfulness, spiritual life.”

[end quote]

The fact is that spiritual form is inconceivable to our present senses. In the material world we try to measure things. But to measure anything, there has to be a reference point and our own bodies are the reference we use to understand the rest of the world around us.

Thus our sense of existence is limited to the actions and existence of our own bodies.

You have given some examples of drinking or jumping in water or sitting on a chair. Once an action is completed, it is gone, it is in the past. As for the future, it is not manifest to us.

We do not know what will come next. We thus have a sense of separation from the action and the object, both in the past and the future.

But in the spiritual world Krsna is the object, and all action is for pleasing Him. There is never any separation from Krsna.

Krsna continuously dominates the consciousness of every living being and action is the eternal flow of service to Krsna. It never stops yet it takes on unlimited variety of performance.

It is inconceivable, yet a fact.

Srimad-Bhagavatam 6.1.1-4 — Melbourne, May 20, 1975

[Sonic Yogi]

 

However, all of Krishna’s marginal ‘sparks’ and so called 'atoms in the effulgence have the same ORIGINAL bodily features like Krishna – sat-cit-ananda-vigraha. The full potential and original feature of all living entities is a two arm human looking form

 

Can you please quote for us the shastric evidence that the tatastha-jiva is "sat-cit-ananda-VIGRAHA".

 

I am having trouble finding any proof.

 

In proper debate you can't just quote "Prabhupada said", but we need some proof in shastra because all of Prabhupada's teachings are based on shastra.

[Sarva gattah]

Hari-sauri: How do we understand, then, that there are peacocks and flowers and trees in the spiritual world? Are these not eternal forms?

Prabhupada [decribing material form first]: Yes. They are more covered. Just like if you cover your body with blanket, the hands and legs are invisible. But you are not the blanket. So the trees and plants, they are more covered. They are not in full manifestation. The human form is the full manifestation of the soul.

Yasomatinandana: Is the original body of the spirit soul a human form?

 

Prabhupada: Yes, human form. God is also human form. “Man is made after the shape of God.” I think there is in the Bible. Is it not? So God is also like human form. Here you see Krsna, two hands, two legs.

Srimad-Bhagavatam 6.1.1-4 — Melbourne, May 20, 1975

 

Prabhupadas words are shastra, he also says we have all come down from Vaikuntha some millions of years ago. All marginal living beings are actually nitya siddhas and NOT some impersonal sparks in some effulgence (impersonal Brahman) in the originality of their original possition. sat, cit, ananda, VIGRAHA;THIS IS WHY WE ARE PERSONALISTS

[Sarva gattah]

In His mahat-tattva (jada-jagat- lifeless material world) there is also eternal time experienced by the baddha-jiva however, it is divided by past, present and future which has the by-product phenomenon of impermanence, decay birth and death that does not exist in the perpetual ‘present’ in Goloka-Vrndavana or Vaikuntha (cid-jagat) which makes up the majority of the Spiritual Sky or Brahmajyoti.

The original and eternal position of all living individuals, known as the marginal living entities is their perpetual rasa (devotional mood) nitya-siddha-svarupa body, that is eternally serving Krishna in the ‘eternal present’ where there is no past or future, as previously explained.

 

The jiva in its natural state serves in the ‘eternal present’ in Goloka Vrndavana or Vaikuntha worlds that, not only have no past or future as we trapped in the material world experience, but also has no beginning or end, birth or death, decay, pain or suffering. The eternal presents of Goloka with Krishna and His living entities is imperishable and therefore has always existed. The jivas were never created, we have always been.

The Vedas mention creation because they are referring to the mahat tattva that is created and eventually destroyed. The Vaikunthas on the other hand, were NEVER created because the Kingdom of God has always been as you have mentioned in your quote of the Brahma Samhita

It is very hard trying to understand no beginning nor end then hear the paradox that Krishna created everything.

There is no creation except for the mahat tattva or material 'creation' Vaikuntha has always been, will always be, and will never cease to be.

Its all coming from within your heart, pray to Krishna and Guru to guide you, only then will you understand

 

The jiva in its natural state serves in the ‘eternal present’ in Goloka Vrndavana or Vaikuntha worlds that, not only have no past or future as we trapped in the material world experience, but also has no beginning or end, birth or death, decay, pain or suffering. The eternal presents of Goloka with Krishna and His living entities is imperishable and therefore has always existed. The jivas were never created, we have always been.

The Vedas mention creation because they are referring to the mahat tattva that is created and eventually destroyed. The Vaikunthas on the other hand, were NEVER created because the Kingdom of God has always been as you have mentioned in your quote of the Brahma Samhita

It is very hard trying to understand no beginning nor end then hear the paradox that Krishna created everything.

There is no creation except for the mahat tattva or material 'creation' Vaikuntha has always been, will always be, and will never cease to be.

Its all coming from within your heart, pray to Krishna and Guru to guide you, only then will you understand

 

Anyone like yogis, impersonalists, philosophers coming from the impersonal Brahmajyoti are coming already from a fallen state. Merging into the Brahmajyoti is also temporary and eventually they fall from there as well. To a Vaishnava, merging into the impersonal Brahmajyoti is considered spiritual suicide because one is attempting to eradicate their individuality.

 

Some foolishly say we originate from the impersonal Brahmajyoti or some plain sheet of inactive consciousness but long, long, long before that we were originally with Krishna in Goloka.

 

Srila Prabhupada - "So when someone asks, when did we come into contact with the material nature?” The answer is that we have not come into contact. By the influence of the material energy we THINK that we are in contact. Actually we are not fallen. We cannot be fallen. We have simply created a situation. Rather, we have not created a situation; Krishna has given us a situation. Because we wanted to imitate Krishna, Krishna has given an opportunity: “All right. You want to imitate? You want to be an imitation king on the stage’- Tokyo in 1972 Srila Prabhupada

 

Srila Prabhupada - “The word varnam refers to the luster of one’s original identity. The original luster of gold or silver is brilliant. Similarly, the original luster of the living being, who is part of the sac-cid-ānanda-vigraha [bs. 5.1], is the luster of ānanda, or pleasure. Ānandamayo bhyāsāt. Every living entity has the right to become ānandamaya, joyful, because he is part of the sac-cid-ānanda-vigraha [bs. 5.1], Krishna. Why should the living being be put into tribulation because of dirty contamination by the material modes of nature? The living entity should become purified and regain his svarūpa, his original identity” Srimad Bhagavatam 8.24.48

[Sarva gattah]

Srila Prabhupada “Originally everyone is nitya-siddha. nitya-siddha krsna-bhakti ’sadhya’ kabhu naya sravanadi-suddha-citte karaye udaya Every living entity originally nitya-siddha, “. Srimad-Bhagavatam Class 7.9.4– Mayapur, February 18, 1977

Srila Prabhupada – “You have got original relationship with Krishna. Nitya-siddha krishna-bhakti. . (Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture, December 7, 1974, Bombay)

Srila Prabhupada - “Everyone has got a particular relationship with Krishna in his original constitutional position that is called svarupa-siddhi". (Nectar of Devotion lecture, 20 October 1972, Vrindaban)

Srila Prabhupada - “Because he falls down from Brahma-sayujya (impersonal liberated condition ), he thinks that may be his origin, but he does not remember that long, long, long, long ago before that even, he was with Krishna”. Letter to Australian devotees 1972 under Madhudvisa Swami

Actually you are a pure devotee but you have forgotten that long, long, long ago, we have allowed ourselves to be covered by the cloud of selfish desires that blocks out our memory of who we really are.

Try to understand what Prabhupada is telling us.

Srila Prabhupada- "You are already in the spiritual sky, but you are simply covered. Just like the sun is already there. You are also already there…So actually we are always in the spiritual world. But when you forget Krishna by the cloud of illusion that is material. Try to understand". In a Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture given in London, on July 30, 1971

Srila Prabhupada- "Actually we are not fallen therefore, at any moment we can revive (Regain, re-establish, wake up from the dream, remember who we really are as a body eternally in a state of originality) our Krishna consciousness. As soon as we understand that (my svarupa body is always in Krsnaloka or Vaikuntha or even both), "I have nothing to do with (the material world and its bodily vessels my sub-conscious fallen nitya-baddha condition is housed in). I am simply Krishna's servant. Eternal servant. That's all". In a Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture given in London, on July 30, 1971

Srila Prabhupada - "You are liberated. You are liberated. Simply just a cloud has covered you. Drive away the cloud. There is no question that you were ever (conditioned as nitya-baddha in the material world)".

(Lecture on Sri Caitanya-Caritamrita, Adi-lila 7.108--San Francisco, February 18, 1967)

Srila Prabhupada -"You are ever-liberated (meaning in our original and eternal state, we are all nitya-siddha). The sky is always spiritual but is sometimes overcrowded with cloud (known as the mahat-tattva or material creation that is in one corner of the Spiritual Sky), this is Maya (The cloud is created by Maha-Vishnu and His Wife Maya-Devi, through her powerful s'akti, controls all the bodily vessels occupied by the visiting DREAMING baddha-jivas)".

(Lecture on Sri Caitanya-Caritamrita, Adi-lila 7.108--San Francisco, February 18, 1967)

Srila Prabhupada - "This is called Maya. Actually, you are not conditioned. You are thinking. Just like in the dream you are thinking that tiger is eating you. You were never eaten by tiger. There is no tiger. So we have to get out of this dream". (Lecture on Sri Caitanya-Caritamrita, Adi-lila 7.108--San Francisco, February 18, 1967)

Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakur - “However, because of contact with matter, the imprisoned soul loses the memory of his original spiritual form in Vaikuntha. . . material rasas are perverted reflections of the soul's original spiritual rasas.” Prema-pradipa, p. 83

[Narasingh]

Sarvah gattah:

I think it is fair to include the full context of some of these conversations. You will see here, when Prabhupada is talking about the soul as having a "human" form it is purely an ambiguous statement. The devotees were asking (loaded?) questions and it turned out to be an almost "who is on first" type conversation. Everyone please check this more complete section of the conversation and make your decisions based on this. No offense intended Sarvah gattah.

 

Devotee (1): Srila Prabhupada, you were saying that because the body has arms and legs, then the coat has a similar shape. Then does the spirit soul that’s within our body have arms and legs like that?

Prabhupada: Yes.

Devotee (1): Would the spirit soul that is within, say, a cow’s body, is in a different shape?

Prabhupada: Yes. It has got also legs. But the shape has taken according to his desire. Every animal has got these four things. Just like bird, it has got two wings, two legs. The animal has got four legs. And the man has got two hands, two legs. So the same parts of the body, they are appearing in a different type. But the four limbs of the body are there. Hm?

Devotee (2): Is the original body of the spirit soul a human form?

Madhudvisha: The question is that whether the eternal form of the spirit soul is a human form or is it...

Prabhupada: Yes, human form. God is also human form. “Man is made after the shape of God.” I think there is in the Bible. Is it not? So God is also like human form. Here you see Krishna, two hands, two legs.

Hari-sauri: How do we understand, then, that there are peacocks and flowers and trees in the spiritual world? Are these not eternal forms?

Prabhupada: Yes. They are more covered. Just like if you cover your body with blanket, the hands and legs are invisible. But you are not the blanket. So the trees and plants, they are more covered. They are not in full manifestation. The human form is the full manifestation of the soul.

Hari-sauri: They are covered in the spiritual world?

Madhudvisha: He is asking if they were actually covered in the spiritual world as well.

Prabhupada: Not in the spiritual world. There that is voluntary. Some devotee wants to serve Krishna as flower; they become flower there. If I want that “As a flower I shall lie down at the lotus feet of Krishna,” he becomes flower, voluntarily. And he can change his..., from flower to human body. That is spiritual life. There is no restriction. If some devotee wants to serve Krishna as cow, he serves Krishna as cow, as calf, as flower, as plant, as water, as ground, field, or as father, as mother, as friend, as beloved, anything. Ye yatha mam prapadyante tams tathaiva bhajamy aham [bg. 4.11]. That is Krishna’s all-powerfulness, spiritual life.

Sarvah's interpretations are intertwined with Srila Prabhupada's quotes in such a way that it is difficult for the reader to determine if it is Sarvah's interpretations or Prabhupada's comments. Afterall, not everyone has access to all the archives. I would be concerned to think that this was intentional and I'd love to give the benefit of the doubt that it is purely coincidental. Please pay close attention to the [endQuote] he has at the end of the discussion. Either case, you'll see the ambiguity of the necessity of saying one has a "human" like form in the spiritual world. It is not falsifiable therefore not an issue. The form of a nitya siddha Goloka Dham Vasi is a form of prema rasa. What does that form look like? What does a flower from Goloka look like? We can only hope to see

 

 

 

śriyaḥ kāntāḥ kāntaḥ parama-puruṣaḥ kalpa-taravo

drumā bhūmiś cintāmaṇi-gaṇa-mayi toyam amṛtam

kathā gānaḿ nāṭyaḿ gamanam api vaḿśī priya-sakhi

cid-ānandaḿ jyotiḥ param api tad āsvādyam api ca

sa yatra kṣīrābdhiḥ sravati surabhībhyaś ca su-mahān

nimeṣārdhākhyo vā vrajati na hi yatrāpi samayaḥ

bhaje śvetadvīpaḿ tam aham iha golokam iti yaḿ

vidantas te santaḥ kṣiti-virala-cārāḥ katipaye

 

[Sarva gattah]

Srila Prabhupada “Originally everyone is nitya-siddha. nitya-siddha krsna-bhakti ’sadhya’ kabhu naya sravanadi-suddha-citte karaye udaya Every living entity originally nitya-siddha, “. Srimad-Bhagavatam Class 7.9.4– Mayapur, February 18, 1977

 

Srila Prabhupada - “Because he falls down from Brahma-sayujya (impersonal liberated condition), he thinks that may be his origin, but he does not remember that long, long, long, long ago before that even, he was with Krishna”. Letter to Australian devotees 1972 under Madhudvisa Swami

Actually you are a pure devotee but you have forgotten that long, long, long ago, we have allowed ourselves to be covered by the cloud of selfish desires that blocks out our memory of who we really are as nitya-siddha.

 

Try to understand what Prabhupada is telling us.

[Narasingh]

Are you nitya-siddha, Sarvah-gattah?

[Sonic Yogi]

In the books of Srila Prabhupada we find some things that don't exactly verify what Sarva gattah is claiming that Srila Prabhupada means to say in some very confused conversations with disciples jumping in and out with some rather incoherent questions.

 

CC Adi 5. 22 - purport,

 

 

As spiritual sparks of the beams emanating from the transcendental body of the Lord, we are all permanently related with Him and equal to Him in quality. The material energy is a covering of the spiritual spark, but in the absence of that material covering, the living beings in Vaikuṇṭhaloka are never forgetful of their identities: they are eternally cognizant of their relationship with God in their constitutional position of rendering transcendental loving service to the Lord...............

As we have already described, the soul is a spiritual spark many, many times more illuminating, dazzling and powerful than the sun, moon or electricity. Human life is spoiled when man does not realize his real identity with his soul. Lord Caitanya appeared with Lord Nityānanda to save man from this type of misleading civilization.

[Sonic Yogi]

 

Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta Ādi 7.116

īśvarera tattva — yena jvalita jvalana

jīvera svarūpa — yaiche sphulińgera kaṇa

SYNONYMS

īśvarera tattva — the truth of the Supreme Personality of Godhead; yena — is like; jvalita — blazing; jvalana — fire; jīvera — of the living entities; svarūpa — identity; yaiche — is like; sphulińgera — of the spark; kaṇa — particle.

TRANSLATION

"The Lord is like a great blazing fire, and the living entities are like small sparks of that fire.

PURPORT

Although sparks and a big fire are both fire and both have the power to burn, the burning power of the fire and that of the spark are not the same. Why should one artificially try to become like a big fire although by constitution he is like a small spark? It is due to ignorance. One should therefore understand that neither the Supreme Personality of Godhead nor the small sparklike living entities have anything to do with matter, but when the spiritual spark comes in contact with the material world his fiery quality is extinguished. That is the position of the conditioned souls. Because they are in touch with the material world, their spiritual quality is almost dead, but because these spiritual sparks are all Kṛṣṇa's parts and parcels, as the Lord states in the Bhagavad-gītā (mamaivāḿśaḥ), they can revive their original position by getting free from material contact. This is pure philosophical understanding. In the Bhagavad-gītā the spiritual sparks are declared to be sanātana (eternal); therefore the material energy, māyā, cannot affect their constitutional position.

Someone may argue, "Why is there a need to create the spiritual sparks?" The answer can be given in this way: Since the Absolute Personality of Godhead is omnipotent, He has both unlimited and limited potencies. This is the meaning of omnipotent. To be omnipotent, He must have not only unlimited potencies but limited potencies also. Thus to exhibit His omnipotency He displays both. The living entities are endowed with limited potency although they are part of the Lord. The Lord displays the spiritual world by His unlimited potencies, whereas by His limited potencies the material world is displayed. In the Bhagavad-gītā (7.5) the Lord says:

apareyam itas tv anyāḿ prakṛtiḿ viddhi me parām

jīva-bhūtāḿ mahā-bāho yayedaḿ dhāryate jagat

"Besides these inferior energies, O mighty-armed Arjuna, there is another, superior energy of Mine, which comprises all living entities who are exploiting the resources of this material, inferior nature." The jīva-bhūta, the living entities, control this material world with their limited potencies. Generally, people are bewildered by the activities of scientists and technologists. Due to māyā they think that there is no need of God and that they can do everything and anything, but actually they cannot. Since this cosmic manifestation is limited, their existence is also limited. Everything in this material world is limited, and for this reason there is creation, sustenance and dissolution. However, in the world of unlimited energy, the spiritual world, there is neither creation nor destruction.

If the Personality of Godhead did not possess both limited and unlimited energies, He could not be called omnipotent. Aṇor aṇīyān mahato mahīyān: "The Lord is greater than the greatest and smaller than the smallest." He is smaller than the smallest in the form of the living entities and greater than the greatest in His form of Kṛṣṇa. If there were no one to control, there would be no meaning to the conception of the supreme controller (īśvara), just as there is no meaning to a king without his subjects. If all the subjects became king, there would be no distinction between the king and an ordinary citizen. Thus for the Lord to be the supreme controller there must be a creation to control. The basic principle for the existence of the living entities is called cid-vilāsa, or spiritual pleasure. The omnipotent Lord displays His pleasure potency as the living entities. The Lord is described in the Vedānta-sūtra (1.1.12) as ānanda-mayo 'bhyāsāt. He is by nature the reservoir of all pleasures, and because He wants to enjoy pleasure, there must be energies to give Him pleasure or supply Him the impetus for pleasure. This is the perfect philosophical understanding of the Absolute Truth.

[Sonic Yogi]

 

Chapter 2. Contents of the Gita Summarized

 

TEXT 17

avinasi tu tad viddhi

yena sarvam idam tatam

vinasam avyayasyasya

na kascit kartum arhati

SYNONYMS

avinasi--imperishable; tu--but; tat--that; viddhi--know it; yena--by whom; sarvam--all of the body; idam--this; tatam--pervaded; vinasam--destruction; avyayasya--of the imperishable; asya--of it; na kascit--no one; kartum--to do; arhati--is able.

TRANSLATION

Know that which pervades the entire body is indestructible. No one is able to destroy the imperishable soul.

PURPORT

This verse more clearly explains the real nature of the soul, which is spread all over the body. Anyone can understand what is spread all over the body: it is consciousness. Everyone is conscious of the pains and pleasures of the body in part or as a whole. This spreading of consciousness is limited within one's own body. The pains and pleasures of one body are unknown to another. Therefore, each and every body is the embodiment of an individual soul, and the symptom of the soul's presence is perceived as individual consciousness. This soul is described as one ten-thousandth part of the upper portion of the hair point in size. The Svetasvatara Upanisad confirms this:

balagra-sata-bhagasya satadha kalpitasya ca

bhago jivah sa vijneyah sa canantyaya kalpate

"When the upper point of a hair is divided into one hundred parts and again each of such parts is further divided into one hundred parts, each such part is the measurement of the dimension of the spirit soul." (Svet. 5.9) Similarly, in the Bhagavatam the same version is stated:

kesagra-sata-bhagasya satamsah sadrsatmakah

jivah suksma-svarupo 'yam sankhyatito hi cit-kanah

"There are innumerable particles of spiritual atoms, which are measured as one ten-thousandth of the upper portion of the hair."

Therefore, the individual particle of spirit soul is a spiritual atom smaller than the material atoms, and such atoms are innumerable. This very small spiritual spark is the basic principle of the material body, and the influence of such a spiritual spark is spread all over the body as the influence of the active principle of some medicine spreads throughout the body. This current of the spirit soul is felt all over the body as consciousness, and that is the proof of the presence of the soul. Any layman can understand that the material body minus consciousness is a dead body, and this consciousness cannot be revived in the body by any means of material administration. Therefore, consciousness is not due to any amount of material combination, but to the spirit soul. In the Mundaka Upanisad the measurement of the atomic spirit soul is further explained:

eso 'nur atma cetasa veditavyo

yasmin pranah pancadha samvivesa

pranais cittam sarvam otam prajanam

yasmin visuddhe vibhavaty esa atma

"The soul is atomic in size and can be perceived by perfect intelligence. This atomic soul is floating in the five kinds of air [prana, apana, vyana, samana and udana], is situated within the heart, and spreads its influence all over the body of the embodied living entities. When the soul is purified from the contamination of the five kinds of material air, its spiritual influence is exhibited." (Mund. 3.1.9)

The hatha-yoga system is meant for controlling the five kinds of air encircling the pure soul by different kinds of sitting postures--not for any material profit, but for liberation of the minute soul from the entanglement of the material atmosphere.

So the constitution of the atomic soul is admitted in all Vedic literatures, and it is also actually felt in the practical experience of any sane man. Only the insane man can think of this atomic soul as all-pervading Visnu-tattva.

The influence of the atomic soul can be spread all over a particular body. According to the Mundaka Upanisad, this atomic soul is situated in the heart of every living entity, and because the measurement of the atomic soul is beyond the power of appreciation of the material scientists, some of them assert foolishly that there is no soul. The individual atomic soul is definitely there in the heart along with the Supersoul, and thus all the energies of bodily movement are emanating from this part of the body. The corpuscles which carry the oxygen from the lungs gather energy from the soul. When the soul passes away from this position, activity of the blood, generating fusion, ceases. Medical science accepts the importance of the red corpuscles, but it cannot ascertain that the source of the energy is the soul. Medical science, however, does admit that the heart is the seat of all energies of the body.

Such atomic particles of the spirit whole are compared to the sunshine molecules. In the sunshine there are innumerable radiant molecules. Similarly, the fragmental parts of the Supreme Lord are atomic sparks of the rays of the Supreme Lord, called by the name prabha or superior energy. Neither Vedic knowledge nor modern science denies the existence of the spirit soul in the body, and the science of the soul is explicitly described in the Bhagavad-gita by the Personality of Godhead Himself.

 

[Sonic Yogi]

 

Śrī Īśopaniṣad 7

yasmin sarvāṇi bhūtāny

ātmaivābhūd vijānataḥ

tatra ko mohaḥ kaḥ śoka

ekatvam anupaśyataḥ

SYNONYMS

yasmin — in the situation; sarvāṇi — all; bhūtāni — living entities; ātmā — the cit-kaṇa, or spiritual spark; eva — only; abhūt — exist as; vijānataḥ — of one who knows; tatra — therein; kaḥ — what; mohaḥ — illusion; kaḥ — what; śokaḥ — anxiety; ekatvam — oneness in quality; anupaśyataḥ — of one who sees through authority, or one who sees constantly like that.

TRANSLATION

One who always sees all living entities as spiritual sparks, in quality one with the Lord, becomes a true knower of things. What, then, can be illusion or anxiety for him?

 

 

I guess it says here than if we see the soul as a spiritual spark we won't be in all the illusion or anxiety that Sarva gattah is in?

[theist]

 

Are you nitya-siddha, Sarvah-gattah?

 

 

Yes he is, as are you and I. The question is do we realize it or not.

[Beggar]

What's the overall point of what Sarva gattah posts on this "hidden" origin of the soul thread and other less and more direct threads? Prabhupada told so many things especially in his books, but Sarva only wants to give one side of the picture and that is certainly not what Srila Prabhupada did. Now in reaction to devotees denying the fact that Prabhupada made statements such as:

 

Srila Prabhupada “Originally everyone is nitya-siddha. nitya-siddha krsna-bhakti ’sadhya’ kabhu naya sravanadi-suddha-citte karaye udaya Every living entity originally nitya-siddha, “. Srimad-Bhagavatam Class 7.9.4– Mayapur, February 18, 1977

 

then I can understand that they should (if they have any regard for Srila Prabhupada) be alerted to such statements. That's really not a bad service at all. But once they are aware of these things then maybe others will bring up statement especially in Srila Prabhupada's books that appear contradictory. The harmonizing concept is that he is simply giving different angles of vision from the viewpoint of material time on one hand and the viewpoint of eternity on the other. Herein lie the grounds for a permanent truce on this subject. And even if the subject is discussed in passing rather than obsession, such a harmony should remove all animosity and suspicion for all parties involved. But most including and maybe Sarva, seem to continue to have some kind of theological axe to grind. Then you have to ask yourself what lies behind the "theological axe"? After all should we assume that although we have made so many mistakes and blunders in our own lives, should we still assume that all our motives are pure? The real answer that I believe an exalted soul would give to, "well, are you a nitya-siddha?" would be, "everyone but myself is nitya-siddha, I am a fallen soul". In reality this is the conception of an uttama adhikari. It's all about applying the siddhanta and the devotional modes correctly to time, place and circumstance. If we expect spiritual life to be completely rational and conform to reason, we are missing a big lesson.

Maybe because in early Iskcon we preached that every question could be answered, we believed our own propaganda. I don't really think Sarva gets the real idea behind "Crow and Tal Fruit Logic", which is just that, that there is no concrete and logical, reasonable answer for the origin of the jiva. I kind of think that's what he is up to, to try and give these quotes of Srila Prabhupada as a concrete answer that actually goes beyond "Crow and Tal Fruit Logic". But that "Logic" is the final answer, meaning that you will just have to realize the reality when you realize pure love of God. By then we will understand that this apparent conflict over the origin of the jiva is just some kind of illusion to keep us from our real business of practicing sadhana bhakti, and to undermine that process by injecting a low-grade hostility in our outlook towards other devotees. But look at me, I am obsessed also. As Srila Sridhar Maharaja said, "that Krsna is the only enjoyer is a bitter pill to swallow."

[Sonic Yogi]

 

Bhagavad-gītā As It Is 2.18

antavanta ime dehā

nityasyoktāḥ śarīriṇaḥ

anāśino 'prameyasya

tasmād yudhyasva bhārata

SYNONYMS

anta-vantaḥ — perishable; ime — all these; dehāḥ — material bodies; nityasya — eternal in existence; uktāḥ — are said; śarīriṇaḥ — of the embodied soul; anāśinaḥ — never to be destroyed; aprameyasya — immeasurable; tasmāt — therefore; yudhyasva — fight; bhārata — O descendant of Bharata.

TRANSLATION

The material body of the indestructible, immeasurable and eternal living entity is sure to come to an end; therefore, fight, O descendant of Bharata.

PURPORT

The material body is perishable by nature. It may perish immediately, or it may do so after a hundred years. It is a question of time only. There is no chance of maintaining it indefinitely. But the spirit soul is so minute that it cannot even be seen by an enemy, to say nothing of being killed. As mentioned in the previous verse, it is so small that no one can have any idea how to measure its dimension. So from both viewpoints there is no cause of lamentation, because the living entity as he is cannot be killed nor can the material body be saved for any length of time or permanently protected. The minute particle of the whole spirit acquires this material body according to his work, and therefore observance of religious principles should be utilized. In the Vedānta-sūtras the living entity is qualified as light because he is part and parcel of the supreme light. As sunlight maintains the entire universe, so the light of the soul maintains this material body. As soon as the spirit soul is out of this material body, the body begins to decompose; therefore it is the spirit soul which maintains this body. The body itself is unimportant. Arjuna was advised to fight and not sacrifice the cause of religion for material, bodily considerations.

[Sarva gattah]

 

I guess it says here than if we see the soul as a spiritual spark we won't be in all the illusion or anxiety that Sarva gattah is in?

 

Your wrong - Srila Prabhupada “Originally everyone is nitya-siddha. nitya-siddha krsna-bhakti ’sadhya’ kabhu naya sravanadi-suddha-citte karaye udaya Every living entity originally nitya-siddha, “. Srimad-Bhagavatam Class 7.9.4– Mayapur, February 18, 1977

[Sonic Yogi]

Srila A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada:

The living entities are parts and parcels of the Lord. They are of two varieties, namely nitya-mukta and nitya-baddha. The nitya-muktas are eternally liberated souls, and they are eternally engaged in the reciprocation of transcendental loving service with the Lord in His eternal abode beyond the manifested mundane creations. (Bhag.1.10.22, purp.)

. . . the planets in the spiritual sky . . . are in fact transcendental to the material modes . . . The conception of spiritual bliss (Brahmananda) is fully present in those planets . . . and free from all kinds of inebriates experienced in the material world . . . The inhabitants of those planets are liberated from birth, death, old age and diseases and have full knowledge of everything; they are all godly and free from all sorts of material hankerings. They have nothing to do there except to render transcendental loving service to the Supreme Lord . . . The Lord and His eternal servitors in the transcendental kingdom all have eternal forms which are auspicious, infallible, spiritual and eternally youthful. In the words, there is no birth, death, old age and disease. That eternal land is full of transcendental enjoyment and full of beauty and bliss. This very fact is also corroborated in this verse of Srimad-Bhagavatam, and the transcendental nature is described as amrta. As described in the Vedas, utamrtatvasyesanah: the Supreme Lord is the Lord of immortality, or in other words, the Lord is immortal, and because He is the Lord of immortality He can award immortality to His devotees. In the Bhagavad-gita (8.16) the Lord also assures that whoever may go to His abode of immortality shall never return to this mortal land of threefold miseries . . . In the material world there is always anxiety or fearfulness in the hearts of all living entities, but the Lord, being Himself the supreme fearless, also awards the same quality of fearlessness to His pure devotees. Mundane existence is itself a kind of fear because in all mundane bodies the effects of birth, death, old age and disease always keep a living being compact in fear. In the mundane world, there is always the influence of time, which changes things from one stage to another, and the living entity originally being avikara, or unchangeable, suffers a great deal on account of changes due to the influence of time.

The changing effects of eternal time are conspicuously absent in the immortal kingdom of God, which should therefore be understood to have no influence of time and therefore no fear whatsoever. (Bhag.2.6.18, purp.)

The nitya-siddha devotees never fall down to the region of the material atmosphere even though they sometimes come into the material plane to execute the mission of the Lord. (Bhag. 3.3.26, purp.)

A pure living entity in his original spiritual existence is fully conscious of his constitutional position as an eternal servitor of the Lord. All souls who are situated in such pure consciousness are liberated, and therefore they eternally live in bliss and knowledge in the various Vaikuntha planets in the spiritual sky. When the material creation is manifested, it is not meant for them. The eternally liberated souls are called nitya-muktas, and they have nothing to do with the material creation. The material creation is meant for rebellious souls who are not prepared to accept subordination under the Supreme Lord. (Bhag. 3.5.29, purp.)

. . . a devotee in the transcendental abode of the Lord never falls. (Bhag. 3.15.48, purp.)

After finishing their mock fighting, both the devotee and the Lord are again associated in the spiritual planets. That is very explicitly explained here. The conclusion is that no one falls from the spiritual world or Vaikuntha planet, for it is the eternal abode. (Bhag. 3.16.26, purp.)

The inhabitants of Vaikuntha never return to the material world. (Bhag. 3.16.27, purp.)

A devotee once accepted by the Lord, can never fall down. That is the conclusion of this incident. [Jaya and Vijaya] (Bhag. 3.16.29, purp.)

The word kuta-stha, meaning "without change," is also very significant. There are two kinds of living entities-nitya-mukta and nitya-baddha. A nitya-mukta never forgets his position as the eternal servant of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. One who does not forget this position and knows that he is part and parcel of the Supreme Lord is nitya-mukta. Such a nitya-mukta living entity represents the Supersoul as His expansion. As stated in the Vedas, nityo nityanam. Thus the nitya-mukta living entity knows that he is an expansion of the supreme nitya, or the eternal Supreme Personality of Godhead. (Bhag. 4.16.19, purp.)

Some living entities are conditioned, and others are eternally free. The eternally free living entities are called nitya-mukta, for they never come in contact with the material energy. However, some living entities are conditioned in this material world, and thus they think themselves separated from the Supreme Lord. (Bhag. 4.24.61, purp.)

All the residents of Vaikunthaloka know perfectly well that their master is Narayana, or Krsna, and that they are all His servants. They are all self-realized souls who are nitya-mukta, everlastingly liberated. Although they could conceivably declare themselves Narayana or Visnu, they never do so; they always remain Krsna conscious and serve the Lord faithfully. Such is the atmosphere of Vaikunthaloka. (Bhag. 6.1.34-6, purp.)

From authoritative sources it can be discerned that associates of Lord Visnu who descend from Vaikuntha do not actually fall. They come with the purpose of fulfilling the desire of the Lord, and their descent to this material world is comparable to that of the Lord. The Lord comes to this material world through the agency of His internal potency, and similarly, when a devotee or associate of the Lord descends to this material world, he does so through the action of the spiritual energy. Any pastime conducted by the Supreme Personality of Godhead is an arrangement by yoga-maya, not maha-maya. Therefore it is to understood that when Jaya and Vijaya descended to this material world, they came because there was something to be done for the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Otherwise it is a fact that no one falls from Vaikuntha. (Bhag. 7.1.35, purp.)

One who is not materially infected and who does not forget Krsna as his master is called nitya-mukta. In other words, one who is eternally liberated from material contamination is called nitya-mukta. From time immemorial the nitya-mukta living entity has always been a devotee of Krsna, and his only attempt has been to serve Krsna. Thus he never forgets his eternal servitorship to Krsna. (Cc. Madhya-lila 20.118, purp.)

Srila Prabhupada confirms his agreement with Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura.

An explanation of verses 8 through 15 is given by Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura in his Amrta-pravaha-bhasya . . . The living entities are divided into two categories.the eternally liberated and eternally conditioned. Those who are ever-liberated never come in contact with maya, the external energy. The ever-conditioned are always under the clutches of the external energy . . . The nitya-baddhas are always conditioned by the external energy, and the nitya-muktas never come in contact with the external energy. Sometimes an ever-liberated personal associate of the Supreme Personality of Godhead descends into this universe just as the Lord descends. Although working for the liberation of conditioned souls, the messenger of the Supreme Lord remains untouched by the material energy. Generally ever-liberated personalities live in the spiritual world as associates of Lord Krsna, and they are known as krsna-parsada, associates of the Lord. Their only business is enjoying Lord Krsna's company, and even though such eternally liberated persons come within this material world to serve the Lord's purpose, they enjoy Lord Krsna's company without stoppage . . . The ever-conditioned soul, provoked by lusty desires to enjoy the material world, is subjected to transmigrate from one body to another . . . If by chance he meets a saintly person who works on Krsna's behalf to deliver conditioned souls, and if he agrees to abide by his order, he can gradually approach the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Krsna. (Cc Madhya-lila 22.14-15, purp.)

The third-class person in Krsna consciousness may fall down, but when one is in the second class he does not fall down, and for the first-class person in Krsna consciousness there is no chance of falling down. (Bg. 9.3, purport)

The pure devotee has no actual chance to fall down, because the Supreme Godhead personally takes care of His pure devotees. (Bg. 9.34, purport)

Eternally liberated living entities never come into contact with material nature . . . they are counted among the associates of Krsna. (Teachings of Lord Caitanya, p. 108)

. . .the nitya-siddhas are eternally Krsna conscious without any forgetfulness . . . you should not consider that My associates are ever separated from Me . . . they are almost as powerful as I am . . . they are very, very dear to Me, as I am very, very dear to them. (Nectar of Devotion, p. 205)

[Sonic Yogi]

The mature devotees, who have completely executed Krsna consciousness, are immediately transferred to the universe where Krsna is appearing. In that universe the devotees get their first opportunity to associate with Krsna personally and directly. (Krsna Book, Ch. 28, 6th paragraph)

There are two kinds of souls: conditioned and liberated, nitya-baddha, nitya-mukta. Just like we are, similarly, there are living entities in the spiritual sky also, but they are liberated. They never become conditioned. We are conditioned. We do not know from when, but we are conditioned. So jiva yara vasi. In this material world, we conditioned, we are residents. But in the spiritual world the residents are all liberated souls. Jagal-laksmi rakhi' rahe yahan maya dasi. (670105CC.NY)

They live in the spiritual world, Vaikuntha planets. Nitya-mukta. Nitya-mukta means eternally liberated. They never come down in this material world.(Bhag. Lecture, June 20, 1973, Mayapura)

The following quotes clearly distinguish that the nitya-baddhas can be liberated and that the nitya-siddhas are never enslaved in the material world even when they come here.

The nitya-muktas are in Vaikuntha jagat, the spiritual world and they never fall into the material world. Those in the material world are conditioned souls, nitya-baddha. The nitya-baddhas can become liberated by controlling the mind because the cause of conditioned life is the mind. (Bhag. 5.11.12, purp.)

Srila Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura has given a great amount of evidence from the Vedic literatures proving that the humanlike form of the Personality of Godhead and His holy name, abode, paraphernalia and associates are all eternal, spiritual manifestations without any tinge of material contamination. (Bhag. 11.30.5, purport by disciples of A. C. Bhaktivedanta Prabhupada)

There are two kinds of living entities. Nitya-baddha means ever-conditioned. Ever-conditioned means those who are in this material world; they do not know when they came in touch with this material world. Neither do they know when they will be liberated. They are called nitya-baddha, ever-conditioned. And similarly, there are nitya-siddhas. Nitya-siddhas means they never come in contact with this material world, and even if they come here for some business, they do not forget their position. That is nitya-siddha. Try to understand. There are two kinds of living entities: nitya-siddha, nitya-baddha. Nitya-baddhas are within this material world. Beginning from Brahma down to a small ant, insignificant ant, they are all nitya-baddhas.

Anyone who is in this material world, nitya-baddha. And nitya-siddhas, they never come in contact with this material world, and even they come for some business under the order of the Supreme Lord, they do not touch these material qualities. They remain always transcendental. As Krsna remains always transcendental, even though He is in this material world, similarly, Krsna's nitya-siddha associates, they are also transcendental. They never touch this material world. (Bg. Lecture, July 14, 1973, London)

Those who are in the spiritual world, they are nitya-siddha. Nitya-mukta. Nitya-mukta means they never come in this material world. Just like Krsna is nitya-muktya suddha. Similarly the associates of Krsna who come with Him . . . Just like the gopis or the cowherd boys . . . they are all nitya-siddha, nitya-muktya . . . They are in the spiritual form, ananda-cinmaya-rasa, enjoying always spiritual bliss in the association of Krsna. (Bhag. June 19, 1972, Los Angeles)

. . . you should know that the great liberated souls and incarnations who appear from time to time in this material world are not actually coming back, because they are never subject to material contamination or the laws of material nature. (Ltr Srila Prabhupada~Vrndavanesvari, 6 June 1969)

We also mention here that, in regards to the theory that the nitya-muktas fall from the spiritual world and the baddha-mukta (bound who become liberated) do not fall, there is no evidence in sastra supporting or even mentioning this theory, nor do sanskrit terms exist for the mukta-baddha (liberated who become bound). Absolutely no distinction is made in the writings of our acaryas or in sastra between different classes of living entities in the spiritual world in reference to being eligible to fall or not; indeed no direct sastric or acarya reference states that any of them fall down. Neither is there any explicit mention in scripture of fallen nitya-muktas. The theory that the associates of the Lord in the spiritual world fall down implies that nitya-muktas (eternally liberated residents of Vaikuntha) are inferior to baddha-muktas (those bound in the material world who become liberated). This theory insinuates that nitya-muktas must come to the material world to become really fall-proof--to get a better education--i.e., one cannot be a gentleman unless he first visits a brothel. It also implies that bhaya-bhakti, devotion produced by fear or suffering, is superior to prema-bhakti, for only bhaya-bhakti gives complete protection to a devotee, that he will never fall down.

[Sarva gattah]

 

Hari-sauri: How do we understand, then, that there are peacocks and flowers and trees in the spiritual world? Are these not eternal forms?

Prabhupada [decribing material form first]: Yes. They are more covered. Just like if you cover your body with blanket, the hands and legs are invisible. But you are not the blanket. So the trees and plants, they are more covered. They are not in full manifestation. The human form is the full manifestation of the soul.

 

Yasomatinandana: Is the original body of the spirit soul a human form?

 

Prabhupada: Yes, human form. God is also human form. “Man is made after the shape of God.” I think there is in the Bible. Is it not? So God is also like human form. Here you see Krsna, two hands, two legs.

Srimad-Bhagavatam 6.1.1-4 — Melbourne, May 20, 1975

 

Prabhupadas words are shastra, he also says we have all come down from Vaikuntha some millions of years ago. All marginal living beings are actually nitya siddhas and NOT some impersonal sparks in some effulgence (impersonal Brahman) in the originality of their original possition. sat, cit, ananda, VIGRAHA;THIS IS WHY WE ARE PERSONALISTS

[Sonic Yogi]

A pure devotee of the Lord can never forget those lotus feet in any circumstance. He will not give up his shelter at the lotus feet of the Lord for a single moment-indeed, not for half a moment-even in exchange of the benediction of ruling and enjoying the opulence of the entire universe. (Bhag. 11.2.53, text)

The living entities [jivas] are divided into two categories. Some are eternally liberated, and others are eternally conditioned. Those who are eternally liberated are always awake to Krsna consciousness, and they render transcendental loving service at the feet of Lord Krsna. They are to be considered eternal associates of Krsna, and they are eternally enjoying the transcendental bliss of serving Krsna. (Cc. Madhya-lila 22.10-11, text)

In the spiritual sky there are spiritual planets known as Vaikunthas, which are the residence of the Supreme Personality of Godhead and His pure devotees) (Bhag. 3.15.13, text.)

. . . and in the spiritual world every living entity is called infallible. (Bg. 15.16, text)

Srila Vrndavana dasa Thakura:

Therefore there is no birth or death for the Vaisnavas [the eternal associates]. They descend to the material world with the Lord and return to His abode with Him. The Vaisnava is never bound by karma and thus does not take birth in the material world. (Caitanya-Bhagavata Antya-lila 10.172)

Srila Rupa Gosvami:

Even the associates of the Lord are described as having eternal forms. (Laghu-bhag. 1.143)

The samprapta-siddhas are those who have become perfect by performing bhakti and nitya-siddhas are those who have never been conditioned and thus are eternally siddhas. (Brs. 2.1.281, text)

The nitya-siddha devotees love Krsna millions of times more than their own selves. They all have eternal, blissful qualities just like Lord Krsna. (Brs. 2.1.290, text)

Srila Jiva Gosvami:

The third of ten characteristics of Vaikuntha listed by Srila Jiva Gosvami in Bhagavat-sandarbha, text 61, is that anyone who has attained Vaikuntha does not fall. Srila Jiva Gosvami also provides numerous examples and quotes as proof of this fact.

Srila Baladeva Vidyabhusana:

Srila Baladeva Vidyabhusana writes in Govinda-bhasya, "One cannot even imagine that the Supreme Lord Hari would ever desire that the liberated souls fall down, nor would the liberated souls ever desire to leave the Lord." He further states that this is because of their extreme mutual love and cites four verses as evidence (Bg. 7.17, Bhag. 9.4.68, 9.4.65 and 2.8.6).

Srila Bhaktivinode Thakura:

Mahavisnu, the incarnation of Sankarsana, establishing Himself in the jiva-sakti as Paramatma, reveals the jiva-souls of the mundane world. These jivas are susceptible to the influence of maya. Till by dint of God's grace they get shelter under the Hladini (bliss-giving) element of the cit-sakti, they are liable to be overcome by maya. As such, the conclusion is that it is the jiva-sakti that begets the jivas, and not the cit-sakti. (Jaiva-Dharma, p. 216)

. . . Gradually they reach the transcendental abode of the Lord and attain the exact same status as His eternal associates. (Jaiva Dharma, p. 229)

Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura:

Jivas are of two kinds. 1) Nitya-mukta (eternally free) 2) Nitya-baddha (eternally enslaved). Free jivas are never enslaved. They are ever serving the Supreme God. (Vaisnavism Real and Apparent, Lecture, Bhaktisiddanta S T )

[Sarva gattah]

Srila Prabhupada- "You are already in the spiritual sky, but you are simply covered. Just like the sun is already there. You are also already there…So actually we are always in the spiritual world. But when you forget Krishna by the cloud of illusion that is material. Try to understand". In a Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture given in London, on July 30, 1971

Srila Prabhupada- "Actually we are not fallen therefore, at any moment we can revive (Regain, re-establish, wake up from the dream, remember who we really are as a body eternally in a state of originality) our Krishna consciousness. As soon as we understand that (my svarupa body is always in Krsnaloka or Vaikuntha or even both), "I have nothing to do with (the material world and its bodily vessels my sub-conscious fallen nitya-baddha condition is housed in). I am simply Krishna's servant. Eternal servant. That's all". In a Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture given in London, on July 30, 1971

Srila Prabhupada - "You are liberated. You are liberated. Simply just a cloud has covered you. Drive away the cloud. There is no question that you were ever (conditioned as nitya-baddha in the material world)".

 

[Sonic Yogi]

BG 2.17 purport:

 

Such atomic particles of the spirit whole are compared to the sunshine molecules. In the sunshine there are innumerable radiant molecules. Similarly, the fragmental parts of the Supreme Lord are atomic sparks of the rays of the Supreme Lord, called by the name prabha or superior energy.

[Sonic Yogi]

This soul is described as one ten-thousandth part of the upper portion of the hair point in size. The Śvetāśvatara Upaniṣad (5.9) confirms this:

 

bālāgra-śata-bhāgasya

 

śatadhā kalpitasya ca

 

bhāgo jīvaḥ vijñeyaḥ

 

sa cānantyāya kalpate

 

"When the upper point of a hair is divided into one hundred parts and again each of such parts is further divided into one hundred parts, each such part is the measurement of the dimension of the spirit soul." Similarly the same version is stated:

 

keśāgra-śata-bhāgasya

 

śatāḿśaḥ sādṛśātmakaḥ

 

jīvaḥ sūkṣma-svarūpo 'yaḿ

 

sańkhyātīto hi cit-kaṇaḥ

 

[Cc. Madya 19.140]

 

"There are innumerable particles of spiritual atoms, which are measured as one ten-thousandth of the upper portion of the hair."

[Sonic Yogi]

BG 2.17 purport:

 

Therefore, the individual particle of spirit soul is a spiritual atom smaller than the material atoms, and such atoms are innumerable. This very small spiritual spark is the basic principle of the material body, and the influence of such a spiritual spark is spread all over the body as the influence of the active principle of some medicine spreads throughout the body.

[Narasingh]

 

After all should we assume that although we have made so many mistakes and blunders in our own lives, should we still assume that all our motives are pure? The real answer that I believe an exalted soul would give to, "well, are you a nitya-siddha?" would be, "everyone but myself is nitya-siddha, I am a fallen soul". In reality this is the conception of an uttama adhikari. It's all about applying the siddhanta and the devotional modes correctly to time, place and circumstance. If we expect spiritual life to be completely rational and conform to reason, we are missing a big lesson.

Yes, Beggar. Ultimately, siddhanta will have to take rasa and rasa abhasa into consideration. The question which surfaces when applying the reasoning that we are all eternally nityasiddha is, "why should we endeavor to 'wake-up'". Not endeavoring to "wake-up" goes against the current of the practice of bhakti-yoga. In as much as the "crow and taal fruit" logic is in place, this is obviously a stance far from the ambiguity of the "crow and taal fruit" logic. I have in mind to make a dissertation on "The Jiva is Eternally, Nitya-Siddha and Why We Should Not Present This Theory". In as much as Prabhupada said this, he also said, in numerous places, that he has taken artistic liberty in his application of preaching.

 

This "I am pure/you are pure constantly" tenet is akin to "I am God/You are God". It nearly dissolves the notion of gratitude and surrender which are basic aspects to Vaishnava philosophy. Let us not turn our backs on that which Srila Prabhupada held as sacred ie. his Guru, his Guru's Gurus, the Goswamis, and Mahaprabhu. When there is a discrepency between what Srila Prabhupada had to say and what our scriptures and other Bhagavatas had to say let us try to see the underlying tow.

 

 

We love to read a book which we never read before. We are anxious to gather whatever information is contained in it and with such acquirement our curiosity stops. This mode of study prevails amongst a great number of readers, who are great men in their own estimation as well as in the estimation of those, who are of their own stamp. In fact, most readers are mere repositories of facts and statements made by other people. But this is not study. The student is to read the facts with a view to create, and not with the object of fruitless retention. Students, like satellites, should reflect whatever light they receive from authors and not imprison the facts and thoughts just as the Magistrates imprison the convicts in the jail! Thought is progressive. The author's thought must have progress in the reader in the shape of correction or development. He is the best critic, who can show the further development of an old thought; but a mere denouncer is the enemy of progress and, consequently, of Nature. "Begin anew,” says the critic, because the old masonry does not answer at present. Let the old author be buried because his time is gone. These are shallow expressions. Progress certainly is the law of nature and there must be corrections and developments with the progress of time. But, progress means going further or rising high. Now, if we are to follow our foolish critic, we are to go back to our former terminus and make a new race, and when we have run half the race another critic of his stamp will cry out, “Begin anew, because the wrong road has been taken!” In this way our stupid critics will never allow us to go over the whole road and see what is in the other terminus. Thus, the shallow critic and the fruitless reader are the two great enemies of progress. We must shun them.

 

The true critic, on the other hand, advises us to preserve what we have already obtained, and to adjust our race from that point where we have arrived in the heat of our progress. He will never advise us to go back to the point whence we started, as he fully knows that in that case there will be a fruitless loss of our valuable time and labor. He will direct the adjustment of the angle of the race at the point where we are. This is also the characteristic of the useful student. He will read an old author and will find out his exact position in the progress of thought. He will never propose to burn the book on the ground that it contains thoughts which are useless. No thought is useless. Thoughts are means by which we attain our objects. The reader, who denounces a bad thought, does not know that a bad road is even capable of improvement and conversion into a good one. One thought is a road leading to another. Thus the reader will find that one thought, which is the object today, will be the means of a further object tomorrow. Thoughts will necessarily continue to be an endless series of means and objects in the progress of humanity. The great reformers will always assert that they have come out, not to destroy the old law, but to fulfill it. Valmiki, Vyasa, Plato, Jesus, Mohammed, Confucius, and Chaitanya Mahaprabhu assert the fact either expressly or by their conduct.