The full potential and original feature of all living entitys is a two arm human form

[Sonic Yogi]

Sarva gattah's relentless harping on this point for the last several years is more about fighting the hackneyed old debate between some ISKCON devotees and the "Gaudiya Math".

None of the Gaudiya Matha gurus including Srila Saraswati Goswami ever preached such a thing as Sarva gattah is trying accuse Srila Prabhupada of preaching.

 

So, it's his one man army fighting his battle with the Gaudiya Matha.

 

Even many of the ISKCON sannyasis and gurus disagree with Sarva Gattah.

 

He doesn't represent ISKCON.

 

He represents himself.

 

He certainly doesn't represent Srila Prabhupada.

 

Anyone who refused to read the books of Srila Prabhupada and instead formulates a new siddhanta from two or three statements of Srila Prabhuapda, certainly has no fight to claim to represent Srila Prabhupada.

[Sarva gattah]

All of Krishna's marginal 'sparks' and so called 'atoms (souls) in the effulgence or Impersonal Brahmajyoti or within the body of Maha-Vishnu, have ALL the same ORIGINAL bodily features like Krishna - sat-cit-ananda-vigraha. The full potential and original feature of all living entities is a two arm human looking form

Srila Prabhupada - "Because he falls down from Brahma-sayujya (impersonal liberated condition), he thinks that may be his origin, but he does not remember that long, long, long, long ago before that even, he was with Krishna". Letter to Australian devotees 1972 under Madhudvisa Swami

Baddha-jivas who have not woken up from the material dream, enter into the body of Maha Vishnu as seed or spiritual spark until the next manifestation of the mahat-tattva however, long, long, long, long before that they remembered being with Krishna as nitya-siddhas. Entering the body of Maha-Vishnu or the impersonal Brahmajyoti is also entering an already fallen unnatural state

 

Originally we are ALL nitya-siddha

[Sarva gattah]

All of Krishna's marginal 'sparks' and so called 'atoms (souls) in the effulgence or Impersonal Brahmajyoti or within the body of Maha-Vishnu, have ALL the same ORIGINAL bodily features like Krishna - sat-cit-ananda-vigraha. The full potential and original feature of all living entities is a two arm human looking form

 

[Narasingh]

The full potential and original feature of all living entities is a two arm human looking form

Are you saying the blade of grass in Goloka has two arms, or that it is not living up to its full potential and original feature? What good does this philosophy, which you are offering, bring? It is obviously a tenet which you feel strongly about (given your noticeable font enlargement ).

[Beggar]

 

Are you saying the blade of grass in Goloka has two arms, or that it is not living up to its full potential and original feature? What good does this philosophy, which you are offering, bring? It is obviously a tenet which you feel strongly about (given your noticeable font enlargement ).

Wait a moment, now what happens is we start arguing apples and oranges? I believe from my recollection that Srila Sridhar Maharaja also supported this concept that the blades of grass, trees and cows etc. of Vraja were actually human-like spiritual personalities. He said its like in a play that the trees and cows and so on are actually human-like beings in costumes. Also Srila Narayana Maharaja said that Uddhava eventually became a creeper in Vraja after he prayed for that. That is a very famous place in Vraja where the devotees visit on parikram. So actually Uddhava exists in his two handed form and his creeper form simultaneously. Another example is the prayer of the personified Vedas in the Tenth Canto (Krsna Book). Yes the Vedic Srutis appeared as human-like forms (nara-lila) and in that way offered their prayers to the Lord.

This is what it means that, "ultimately everything is a person". This issue really has nothing to do with the siddhanta on the origin of the soul or the difference between eternally conditioned soul and eternally liberated souls.

[bija]

beggar, I appreciated some of your thoughts in post 14. thx.

[bija]

 

This is what it means that, "ultimately everything is a person". by beggar

Yes. This is the high point of Bhagavata Philosophy...for example the characters Rahu and Tulsi are persons (one a planet the other a plant). The list goes on. Infact, this point that Beggar has made shows that the Gaudiya tradition is founded upon 'Personalism', and personalizing all things has been a way handed down in tradition for centuries.

 

Srila BR Sridhara Maharaja points to this in various lectures and in his printed books. He suggests the Person is the real substance, then things like shadow (rahu) eminate from that Original plane. Conditioned we see Rahu, when infact the descending adhoksaja plane sends down the correct view (evident and eternal). We attain that union (eternal nature) by close proximity to that Person - the adhoksaja realm is full of nitya-siddha personality - the internal potency activated by hladhini. We are to take shelter of that transcendental plane. In this earth plane we cultivate through application (dovetailing) - in deep humility. As has been suggested in a previous post, in that humility we cultivate that all persons and our environment are spiritual substance, except me (who is fallen).

 

The way of personalizing all things is much deeper ingrained in Sarasvata lineage than the argument suggesting we are all spark. The Original nature is deeply personal according to Gaudiya Tattva. And the spark is sheltered by Hladhini manifesting form for lila.

[Sonic Yogi]

 

The way of personalizing all things is much deeper ingrained in Sarasvata lineage than the argument suggesting we are all spark. The Original nature is deeply personal according to Gaudiya Tattva. And the spark is sheltered by Hladhini manifesting form for lila.

 

Yes, even the sparks of spiritual light are persons in that way of thinking.

The river is a person, the tree is a person and every molecule of spiritual light is a person.

But, they all don't have two arms and two legs.

[bija]

Yes, they do not...some have eight arms, skulls and fangs;).

 

I think Beggar makes a good point here:

 

 

...The harmonizing concept is that he is simply giving different angles of vision from the viewpoint of material time on one hand and the viewpoint of eternity on the other. Herein lie the grounds for a permanent truce on this subject....

This is a sensible approach when talking about this nitya-siddha thing. The important thing for us is to accept an appropriate mood for bhajan (full of subtle nuance)...then we can awaken to deeper aspects of our person rapidly. This is the key reason why I reject half the cake philosophy, bhajan requires the full pudding. The summum bonum - big picture. In that way all things in due course become spiritualized...rather than maya (fragmented philosophy).

 

If the nuances are not taught correctly (by inadequate bhajan) then the process will lead to a different internal mood than a tradition aims for. This is why factional points of philosophy are completely harmonized by the wise sadhaka. Rather than just attempting to enjoy the cherry ( a fragment)..it is a process and correct bhajan is essential. Harmony also leads to less offence.

[Sarva gattah]

Quote:

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>Originally Posted by Narasingh

Are you saying the blade of grass in Goloka has two arms, or that it is not living up to its full potential and original feature?

 

 

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>Hari-sauri: How do we understand, then, that there are peacocks and flowers and trees in the spiritual world? Are these not eternal forms?

Prabhupada: [describing material form first]: Yes. They are more covered. Just like if you cover your body with blanket, the hands and legs are invisible. But you are not the blanket. So the trees and plants, they are more covered. They are not in full manifestation. The human form is the full manifestation of the soul.

Hari-sauri: They are covered in the spiritual world?

Madhudvisa: He is asking if they were actually covered in the spiritual world as well.

Prabhupada: Not in the spiritual world. There that is voluntary. Some devotee wants to serve Krsna as flower; they become flower there. If I want that “As a flower I shall lie down at the lotus feet of Krsna,” he becomes flower, voluntarily.

Prabhupada: And he can change his…, from flower to human body. That is spiritual life. There is no restriction. If some devotee wants to serve Krsna as cow, he serves Krsna as cow, as calf, as flower, as plant, as water, as ground, field, or as father, as mother, as friend, as beloved, anything.

Ye yatha mam prapadyante tams tathaiva bhajamy aham [bg. 4.11]. That is Krsna’s all-powerfulness, spiritual life.”

Srimad-Bhagavatam 6.1.1-4 — Melbourne, May 20, 1975

[Sonic Yogi]

 

Bhagavad-gītā As It Is 14.27

 

brahmaṇo hi pratiṣṭhāham

 

amṛtasyāvyayasya ca

 

śāśvatasya ca dharmasya

 

sukhasyaikāntikasya ca

 

SYNONYMS

 

brahmaṇaḥ — of the impersonal brahmajyoti; hi — certainly; pratiṣṭhā — the rest; aham — I am; amṛtasya — of the immortal; avyayasya — of the imperishable; ca — also; śāśvatasya — of the eternal; ca — and; dharmasya — of the constitutional position; sukhasya — of happiness; aikāntikasya — ultimate; ca — also.

 

TRANSLATION

 

And I am the basis of the impersonal Brahman, which is immortal, imperishable and eternal and is the constitutional position of ultimate happiness.

Lord Krishna teaches in Bhagavad-gita that the constitutional position of ultimate happiness is the brahmajyoti.

We hear lots of talk about the constitutional position of the soul, but here Lord Krishna explains that as the brahmajyoti.

[Narasingh]

 

Yes. This is the high point of Bhagavata Philosophy...for example the characters Rahu and Tulsi are persons (one a planet the other a plant). The list goes on. Infact, this point that Beggar has made shows that the Gaudiya tradition is founded upon 'Personalism', and personalizing all things has been a way handed down in tradition for centuries.

 

Srila BR Sridhara Maharaja points to this in various lectures and in his printed books. He suggests the Person is the real substance, then things like shadow (rahu) eminate from that Original plane. Conditioned we see Rahu, when infact the descending adhoksaja plane sends down the correct view (evident and eternal). We attain that union (eternal nature) by close proximity to that Person - the adhoksaja realm is full of nitya-siddha personality - the internal potency activated by hladhini. We are to take shelter of that transcendental plane. In this earth plane we cultivate through application (dovetailing) - in deep humility. As has been suggested in a previous post, in that humility we cultivate that all persons and our environment are spiritual substance, except me (who is fallen).

 

The way of personalizing all things is much deeper ingrained in Sarasvata lineage than the argument suggesting we are all spark. The Original nature is deeply personal according to Gaudiya Tattva. And the spark is sheltered by Hladhini manifesting form for lila.

 

I was wrong in my delivery. Yes, there is the conscious personality behind every object.

[Sonic Yogi]

The shastric siddhanta has always been that Maha-Vishnu glances at prakriti and "impregnates" Prakriti with unlimited jiva souls.

It doesn't say that Maha-Vishna creates the world and then it gradually fills up with jivas falling from Vaikuntha or Krsnaloka.

 

The theory of emanations is quite well explained in the Vedic shastra.

 

Sparks of Krsna's energy are eternal.

At some point in eternal time that spark is impregnated into the material energy by Lord Vishnu.

 

The origin of the soul is no mystery.

It is well explained in shastra that Maha-Vishnu impregnates the "seeds" of the living entities into the womb of Maya.

 

 

Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta Madhya 19.139

 

keśāgra-śateka-bhāga punaḥ śatāḿśa kari

 

tāra sama sūkṣma jīvera 'svarūpa' vicāri

 

SYNONYMS

 

keśa-agra — from the tip of a hair; śata-eka — one hundred; bhāga — divisions; punaḥ — again; śata-aḿśa — one hundred divisions; kari — making; tāra sama — equal to that; sūkṣma — very fine; jīvera — of the living entity; svarūpa — the actual form; vicāri — I consider.

 

TRANSLATION

 

"The length and breadth of the living entity is described as one ten-thousandth part of the tip of a hair. This is the original subtle nature of the living entity.

 

Read the TEXT......"JIVERA SVARUP" The svarupa of the jiva is to be a spiritual spark.

 

Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu taught Srila Rupa Goswami as it says in this verse.

He said the ORIGINAL subtle nature of the living entity is as a spirit spark 1/10,000th the tip of a hair.

 

If Mahaprabhu's teachings aren't good enough for Sarva gattah, then let him keep living in some old conversations between Srila Prabhupada and some disciples that were confused and clearly showing that they hadn't absorbed the shastric siddhanta.

 

A couple of statements by Srila Prabhupada in some informal conversations with some neophyte disciples can never over-ride the shastric siddhanta and the teachings of Mahaprabhu.

 

Prabhupada said "books are the basis".

He never said "the recordings of my talks with some neophyte disciples is the basis of the Hare Krsna philosophy".

 

We need to base our understanding on the books, not on some statements made by Srila Prabhupada to some neophytes who were struggling with trying to grasp the Gaudiya siddhanta.

 

Prabhupada made many compromises in his preaching work.

Sometimes he even compromised the strict siddhanta in talks with neophytes to encourage them with concepts what their pea brains could accept.

 

These letters and informal talks with Srila Prabhupada are full of compromises based on the limited abilities of the audience.

 

You can't teach Algebra to a student has can't even grasp remedial Math.

 

So, tell them some tales, fables and stories to get them over the obstacles until their intelligence is purified enough to understand higher knowledge.

[Sonic Yogi]

 

Srila Prabhupada “Originally everyone is nitya-siddha. nitya-siddha krsna-bhakti ’sadhya’ kabhu naya sravanadi-suddha-citte karaye udaya Every living entity originally nitya-siddha, “. Srimad-Bhagavatam Class 7.9.4– Mayapur, February 18, 1977

 

Srila Bhaktsiddhanta Saraswati Thakur explains this a little more definitively.

 

 

In the second chapter of his book "Brahmana and Vaisnava" entitled Harijana-khanda (page 86 in ISKCON edition from 1999), Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura states:

 

 

 

 

"Who are the Harijanas, or Vaisnavas, and what makes them different from the nondevotees? I am quoting various evidence from the scriptures and sentiments of devotees in this Hari-jana-khanda to answer these questions.

"Before acquiring material designations, the living entity is supremely pure. EVEN THOUGH HE IS NOT ENGAGED IN SERVING THE SUPREME LORD [emphasis mine], he remains situated in the neutral position of santa-rasa due to his marginal nature. Though the living entity born from the marginal potency does not at that time exhibit a taste for serving the Lord due to a LACK OF KNOWLEDGE OF SELF REALIZATION, his direct propensity of serving the Supreme Lord nevertheless remains within him in a dormant state. Though the indirect propensity of material enjoyment, which is contrary to the service of the Lord, is not found in him at that time, indifference to the service of Hari and the seed of material enjoyment, which follows that state of indifference, are nevertheless present within him.

"The living entity, who belongs to the marginal potency, cannot remain indifferent forever by subduing both devotional and nondevotional propensities. He therefore contemplates unconstitutional activities from his marginal position. As a sleeping person dreams that he is active in the physical world without actually being involved in activities, when the dormant indifferent living entity of the marginal potency exhibits even a little apathy to the service of the Supreme Lord and situates himself in a neutral, unchanging condition for even a little time, he is infected by impersonalism. That is why the conditioned soul desires to merge in the impersonal Brahman, thus exhibiting his mind's fickle nature. But due to neglecting the eternal service of the Lord and thereby developing the quality of aversion to the Lord, he cannot remain fixed in that position. In this way aversion to the Lord breaks his concentration of mind and establishes him as the master of this world of enjoyment.

"Maya, the external energy of the Supreme Lord, then induces the marginal living entity to enjoy this world through her covering and throwing potencies and thus shows the living entity the reality of being averse to the Lord's service.

"At that time the living entity considers himself the king of enjoyers, and being situated in the mode passion he takes the position of Brahma and creates progeny. The living entities who are born from Brahma, the grandfather of everyone, expand themselves in families of Aryans and brahmanas. In this world of duality, however, living entities who are covered and thrown under the control of the external energy naturally become envious. This enviousness further creates pride, illusion, greed, anger, and lust and induces the living entities to dance frantically in aversion to the Lord. At that time they forget both that they were born from Grandfather Brahma and the Lord's instructions in the Vedas.

"And on the platform of progress, if a living entity cultivates transcendental sound vibration and revives the process of remembering the lotus feet of Sri Krsna, he then achieves scientific spiritual knowledge. By this process, all anarthas are destroyed and he becomes situated in a supremely auspicious position.

"The mood that arises when one is manipulating his senses is called vilasa, or enjoyment. The meaning of vairagya, or renunciation, is to become averse to the accumulation of sensual knowledge. The conditioned souls who are overwhelmed by the illusory energy of Hari become temporary enjoyers of this world under the control of Maya's covering and throwing potencies. But if such persons fortunately meet devotees who are constantly remembering Krsna, then they can give up insignificant material enjoyment and receive the opportunity to attain transcendental knowledge.

"Although due to forgetfulness of Krsna the perverted movement of the senses is considered temporary and adverse, when they are properly employed in eternal subjects their disease of transience is destroyed and they give up the desire to embrace such transient objects. Then that person appreciates the following verse from the Hari-bhakti-vilasa, which is the mercy of Sri Sanatana and compiled by Srila Gopala Bhatta, the disciple of Tridandipada Srila Prabodhananda Sarasvati, who was a servant of Sri Gauranga and born in an Andhra brahmana family.

 

 

grhita-visnu diksako

visnu-puja-paro narah

vaisnavo 'bhihito 'bhijnair

itaro 'smad avaisnavah

 

"One who is initiated into Sri Visnu's mantras and who is devoted to worshiping Lord Visnu is called a Vaisnava by those who are learned. One who is devoid of these practices in not a Vaisnava."

"Although the eternal living entity is constitutionally favorably inclined towards the Supreme Lord, due to his indifference towards the eternal service of the Lord he is eligible for being controlled by Maya. When one tries to measure material objects with his sensual knowledge, he simply increases his enjoying propensity day after day. That he is eligible for achieving transcendental knowledge - this ancient memory he also often forgets. As a result of being covered and thrown and considering himself the enjoyer of this world, such a person has no power to discriminate between good and bad, rather he considers temporary and unreal subjects as permanent and favorable for his enjoyment."

The jiva is the eternal servant of Krsna because he "is constitutionally favorably inclined towards the Supreme Lord", but before falling down he serves Him only in santa-rasa which in fact is not direct pure devotional service. As for the higher rasas, Srila Prabhupada says that the pure devotee can never forget Krsna and we cannot argue with that.

 

[Sonic Yogi]

 

Srila Prabhupada “Originally everyone is nitya-siddha. nitya-siddha krsna-bhakti ’sadhya’ kabhu naya sravanadi-suddha-citte karaye udaya Every living entity originally nitya-siddha, “. Srimad-Bhagavatam Class 7.9.4– Mayapur, February 18, 1977

 

Another important point here is that the way this verse is being translated in this so-called quote does not correspond to the way it is translated in the book.

 

In CC, where that verse comes from it does not say that the living entity is originally "nitya-siddha".

 

This, in fact, is a mistranslation of this verse.

 

The verse means:

 

 

 

Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta Madhya 22.107

 

nitya-siddha kṛṣṇa-prema 'sādhya' kabhu naya

 

śravaṇādi-śuddha-citte karaye udaya

 

SYNONYMS

 

nitya-siddha — eternally established; kṛṣṇa-prema — love of Kṛṣṇa; sādhya — to be gained; kabhu — at any time; naya — not; śravaṇa-ādi — by hearing, etc.; śuddha — purified; citte — in the heart; karaye udaya — awakens.

 

TRANSLATION

 

"Pure love for Kṛṣṇa is eternally established in the hearts of the living entities. It is not something to be gained from another source. When the heart is purified by hearing and chanting, this love naturally awakens.

 

It means that pure love for Krsna is an eternal propensity of the jiva.

 

It means that loving Krsna is eternally the potential capacity of the jiva.

 

The verse does not say what Sarva Gattah is claiming it means by his consistent abuse of that quote out of context and out of proper translation.

 

"Nitya-siddha" as used in the verse in reference simply means that the jiva soul has an eternal capacity to awaken his dormant love for Krsna.

 

The verse itself does not mean that originally all jivas are nitya siddhas.

 

The "nitya-siddha" in the verse in question is regarding the nature of Krishna prema as being inherent in the jiva soul.

 

It in no way is saying that the conditioned souls were originally nitya-siddhas.

[Sarva gattah]

Srila Prabhupada – “We have also come down from Vaikuntha some millions and millions of years ago." - Lecture on Bhagavad-gita on August 6, 1973

 

Srila Prabhupada - ‘We are also expansions of Krishna’s form. These jivas, the living entities… Krishna is expanding in two ways, svamsa and vibhinnamsa. Svamsa means Vishnu. One extension, expansion, is just directly He Himself. And another expansion is separated from Him. That separated from Him (marginal) we are’. Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture 1.3.1-3 — San Francisco, March 28, 1968

Srila Prabhupada -”The original home of the living entity and the Supreme Personality of Godhead is the spiritual world. In the spiritual world both the Lord and the living entities live together very peacefully”(Srimad-Bhagavatam 4.28.54, purport)

Srila Prabhupada - “Everyone has got a particular relationship with Krishna in his original, constitutional position. That will be revealed gradually as you advance in devotional service”(Nectar of Devotion lecture, 20 October 1972, Vrindaban)

Srila Prabhupada – “We have also come down from Vaikuntha some millions and millions of years ago." - Lecture on Bhagavad-gita on August 6, 1973

Srila Prabhupada: You are already in the spiritual sky, but you are simply covered. Just like the sun is already there. You are also already there…So actually we are always in the spiritual world. But when you forget Krishna by the cloud of illusion that is material. Try to understand”.In a Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture given in London, on July 30, 1971

Srila Prabhupada - “Actually we are not fallen therefore, at any moment we can revive our Krishna consciousness. As soon as we understand that, “I have nothing to do with. I am simply Krishna’s servant. Eternal servant. That’s all.lecture Tokyo Japan 1972: Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 2.9.1

Srila Prabhupada - “You are eternally liberated but since we have become conditioned on account of our desire to enjoy materialistic way of life, from time immemorial, therefore it appears that we are eternally conditioned” Letter to Aniruddha, dated November 14, 196

Srila Prabhupada - “Our contact with matter is just like dream. Actually we are not fallen. Therefore, because we are not fallen, at any moment we can revive our Krishna consciousness, we break the dream. Similarly, we can break this So this situation” Srila Prabhupada lecture Tokyo Japan 1972: Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 2.9.1

Srila Prabhupada – “We have got an eternal relationship with Krishna, either as father or as lover or as servant, like that. So that is self-realisation. When you will be perfect in love, in loving Krishna, then in what status of life you will love, that you will under–…That will be revealed. That is called svarupa-siddhi”. (Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture, December 7, 1974, Bombay)

Srila Prabhupada - “When the dream is finished, we come to another dream: “Oh, this is my house. This is my family. This is my bank balance.” This is going on. Dream. One dream at night, one dream at daytime. But who is dreaming? That is the living entity. So his business is different. Not dreaming, daytime dreaming and nighttime dreaming. He has to come to the actual platform. That is Krsna consciousness. If he takes to Krsna consciousness, that is his actual life. Otherwise, he’s in the dreamland” Bombay, December 27, 1972

Srila Prabhupada - “Our separation from Krishna is like that. We dream this body and so many relationships with other things”. Letter to Madhuvisa Swami

Srila Prabhupada - ‘Actually, you are not conditioned. You are thinking. Just like in the dream you are thinking that tiger is eating you. You were never eaten by tiger. There is no tiger. So we have to get out of this dream. (Lecture on Sri Caitanya-caritamrta, Adi-lila 7.108–San Francisco, February 18, 1967)

Srila Prabhupada - “We cannot say therefore that we are not with Krishna. As soon as we try to become Lord, immediately we are covered by Maya. Formerly we were with Krishna in His Lila or sport” Letter to Madhuvisa Swami

Srila Prabhupada - “Just like in a dream we are thinking very long time, but as soon as we awaken we look at our watch and see it has been a moment only”

Srila Prabhupada - “The living of a miserable life in the material world by dint of the soul’s choice is nicely illustrated by Milton in Paradise Lost. Similarly, by choice the soul can regain paradise and return home, back to Godhead”. Sri Caitanya Caritamrita Adi 5.22

Srila Prabhupada clearly states “Because he falls down from Brahma-sayujya (impersonal liberated condition), he thinks that may be his origin, but he does not remember that long, long, long, long ago before that even, he was with Krishna”. Letter to Australian devotees 1972

Srila Prabhupada – “Established means re-establish. It is already established. We have got different types of relationship. That is called svarupa-siddhi. Svarupa-siddhi. When you are perfect in spiritual life, you will understand what your relationship with Krishna is automatically. That is called svarupa-siddhi”. (Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture, December 7, 1974, Bombay)

Srila Prabhupada – “Similarly, we have got an eternal relationship with Krishna, either as father or as lover or as servant, like that. So that is self-realisation. When you will be perfect in love, in loving Krishna, then in what status of life you will love, that you will under–…That will be revealed. That is called svarupa-siddhi”. (Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture, December 7, 1974, Bombay)

Srila Prabhupada – ‘So svarupa-siddhi is not something artificial. When one becomes perfectly spiritually realised, then he understands what his relationship with Krishna is, and he begins his service in that relationship as father, as friend, as guru or as servant, like that. So this relationship is eternal. (Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture, December 7, 1974, Bombay)

Srila Prabhupada - ‘No one falls from the spiritual world or Vaikuntha planet, for it is the eternal abode. (Bhag. 3.16.26, purp.)

This clearly means our nitya-siddha svarupa body can NEVER leave Goloka or Vaikuntha and that WE ONLY DREAM, THINK OR IMAGINE WE LEAVE. In this way the mahat-tattva is the destination for where such dreams go. It is there they are provided with temporary bodily forms created by Maha-Vishnu who is dreaming the entire mahat-tattva or material creation aspect of the Spiritual Sky.

So many misunderstand our eternal constitution or eternal devotional ’svarupa’ foundations. Paramahamsa: So we can come to the spiritual world and return?

Srila Prabhupada: Yes.

Paramahamsa: Fall down?

Srila Prabhupada: Yes. As soon as we try, “Oh, this material world is very nice,” “Yes,” Krsna says, “yes, you go . . . Otherwise what is the meaning of free will?’ Morning Walk, Cheviot Hills Golf Course May 13, 1973 Los Angeles

[Sarva gattah]

Ravindra Svarup Prabhu ‘When we “return” to the spiritual world, it will only be to discover that indeed we never left, and there has always been right here. We are right now with Krsna, for Krsna consciousness is our svarupa, our eternal identity and perpetual constitutional position.

Ravindra Svarup Prabhu ‘We need only wake up and see where we are. All this is known to Srila Prabhupada and to the acaryas. They know how one can fall from a place no one falls from, enter into an ignorance that has always been, and return to a place one never actually left.

Ravindra Svarup Prabhu ‘Because such matters are inconceivable to mundane minds, when teachers speak of such things their words may seem contradictory. But in one way or another they all tell the whole truth’ Ravindra Svarup dasa web site

In this way it is Srila Prabhupada explaining to us in very simple English that we all originate from Goloka.

By reading Prabhupada’s books, one will find this material world of family, friends and activity is ALL their desired dreams and their reactions that are ONLY EXPERIENCED by 'entering' unlimited dream identities or vessels within the dreams of Maha Vishnu –

Srila Prabhupada – “This material creation is the spirit soul's dream. Actually all existence in the material world is a dream of Mahā-Viṣṇu, as the Brahma-saḿhitā describes –

Srila Bhaktisiddhanta - “This material world is created by the dreaming of Mahā-Viṣṇu. The real, factual platform is the spiritual world, but when the spirit soul wants to imitate the Supreme Personality of Godhead, he is put into this dreamland of material creation”.

4.29.83.http://vedabase.net/sb/4/29/83/en

Srila Prabhupada - “Everything happening within time, which consists of past, present and future, is merely a dream. This is the secret in understanding in all the Vedic literature.” SB. 4.29.2b.

the effulgence of Krishna (His Brahman effulgence) is founded on Personalism. Srila Prabhupada explains the following of what Krishna’s effulgence, Brahmajyoti or lustre is -

“The word varnam refers to the lustre (effulgence) of one’s original identity. The original lustre of gold or silver is brilliant. Similarly, the original lustre of the living being, who is part of the sac-cid-ānanda-vigraha [bs. 5.1], is the lustre of ānanda, or pleasure”. Tokyo in 1972 Srila Prabhupada.

Srila Prabhupada “Within this effulgence there are innumerable spiritual planets, and they are known as the Vaikuntha planets. Each and every Vaikuntha planet is many, many times bigger than the biggest universe within the material world, and in each of them there are innumerable inhabitants who look exactly like Lord Visnu. These inhabitants are known as the Maha-paurusikas, or persons directly engaged in the service of the Lord. They are happy in those planets and are without any kind of misery, and they live perpetually in full youthfulness, enjoying life in full bliss and knowledge without fear of birth, death, old age or disease, and without the influence of kala, eternal time.” (Bhag. 1.14.36)

Srila Prabhupada - “We can again revive our brightness and shine with the Supreme Person. As the sun and the sunshine, they are together shining, there is light, similarly, when we are again posted in our own constitutional position, Krsna is LIKE the sun and we are LIKE the shining particles, then our life is successful. ” Srimad-Bhagavatam 1.16.35 – Hawaii, January 28, 1974

Svarupa Damodara - “The spirit soul must necessarily have a body, either spiritual or material”.

Srila Prabhupada - “He has got already spiritual body. Material body is his covering. It is unnatural. Real body is spiritual. Just like your coat, this is unnatural. But your real body is natural. Otherwise how transmigration is possible? I am accepting different unnatural bodies. Unnatural means to my constitution. My real constitutional body is servant of Krsna. So, so long I do not come to that position, I remain servant of nature and I get so many bodies.” .Svarupa Damodara wedsite

“The living entities are not without spiritual senses. Every living being in his original, spiritual form has all the senses, which are now material, being covered by the body and mind. Activities of the material senses are perverted reflections of spiritual pastimes.” Sri Ishopanishad, Verse 11

“The living entity is called marginal energy. But when the falldown has taken place for the conditioned soul is very difficult to ascertain. Therefore two classes are designated: eternally liberated (NITYA-SIDDHA) and eternally conditioned (NITYA-BADDHA). But for arguments sake, a living entity being marginal energy, he can’t be eternally conditioned (NITYA-BADDHA). The time is so unlimited that the conditioned souls appear to be eternally so, but from the philosophical view he cannot be eternally conditioned. Letter the Srila Prabhupada sent to Upendra prabhu

Srila Prabhupada – ‘This ordinary living being is of two kinds — nitya-baddha or nitya-mukta. One is eternally conditioned and the other eternally liberated. The eternally liberated living beings are in the Vaikuntha jagat, the spiritual world, and they never fall into the material world.’ SB 5.11.12 Purport

Then Srila Prabhupada explains.

Srila Prabhupada – “…We are eternally conditioned, (NITYA-BADDHA) but as soon as we surrender to Krishna do we then become eternally liberated (NITYA-SIDDHA) You are not eternally conditioned. You are eternally liberated (NITYA-SIDDHA) but since we have become conditioned on account of our desire to enjoy materialistic way of life, from time immemorial, therefore it appears that we are eternally conditioned’ Letter to Aniruddha, dated November 14, 1968,

Srila Prabhupada “This is confirmed in all Vedic literature. Nityo nityanam cetanas cetananam. So, as we are also persons, individual living beings, we are persons, we have got our individuality, we are all individual, similarly the Supreme Truth, the Supreme Absolute, He is also, at the ultimate issue He is a person. But realization of the Personality of Godhead is realization of all the transcendental features like sat, cit, and ananda, in complete vigraha Gitopanisad by Srila Prabhupada Part Two

Srila Prabhupada - “Originally everyone is nitya-siddha. Nitya-siddha krsna-bhakti ’sadhya’ kabhu naya sravanadi-suddha-citte karaye udaya Every living entity originally nitya-siddha, “. Srimad-Bhagavatam Class 7.9.4– Mayapur, February 18, 1977

“The living entity should become purified and regain his svarūpa, his original identity” Srimad Bhagavatam 8.24.48

The Impersonalist understanding today is rampant and affecting many who wrongly believe that the jiva-soul becomes conscious after originally ‘falling out’ of the Brahmajyoti and then ‘somehow’ becomes endowed with free will, therefore their understanding of the Brahmajyoti is obviously impersonal and therefore dangerous. Such sects do not understand the correct PERSONAL teaching of the Vedas given to us by Jagat Guru His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada.

The full expression and complete potential of ALL marginal living entities is their perpetual ’svarupa’ body that is eternally situated and established within Goloka or Vaikuntha.

Therefore it can then be said that the marginal living entities who have miss-used their free will and chose to enter the maha-tattva, are only temporarily trapped within the material creation, while their undying ‘svarupa’ body is currently laying dormant (hidden from their present awareness) within Goloka or Vaikuntha.

Of course this viewpoint is only from the marginal living entities perspective or standpoint wihin the material creation. Their conditional existence continues on until the marginal living entity again becomes responsive enough to perceive their true original Krishna Conscious bodily foundation within Goloka or Vaikuntha.

[Sarva gattah]

Those who choose to misuse their freewill fall to the material world and they are therefore imperfect because they gave up their perfect position as nitya-siddha by choosing to forget that ‘eternal body and by their dent of imagination, enter the material creation.

Bhaktivinoda Thakura describes in Jaiva Dharma in Nitya Dharma, part 5 –

“The imprisonment of the jiva began when the jiva forgot his position as the eternal servant of Sri Krsna. This forgetfulness is the original offence of the jiva and is the root of all the jiva’s subsequent offences.”

In Srimad Bhagavatam, purport of 3.26.7 Srila Prabhupada states -

Srila Prabhupada – “Whatever the material energy dictates, the conditioned soul does. He has no responsibility. He is simply the witness of the actions, he is forced to act that way due to his offence in his eternal relationship with Krsna.”

And what is that original offence?

The answer is giving up the Lord’s service.

In Srimad Bhagavatam, 5.14.1, Prabhupada states in the purport -

Srila Prabhupada – “When the pure soul wants to give up the Lord’s service to enjoy the material world, Krsna certainly gives him a chance to enter the material world.”

In Tokyo on April 20, 1972 Prabhupada stated –

Srila Prabhupada – “He has fallen means he has given up the service of Krsna.”

Giving up the service to Sri Krsna is due to freewill which leads to more forgetfulness due to the choices one makes due to that free will.

There are other aspects of freewill, but giving up service means giving up our love to Krsna, or we want to serve in another way that is not compatible in the spiritual world.

Krsna does not force you to love Him. You have to desire it willingly and that is the topmost use of freewill, this is what freewill means, to voluntarily serve Krsna. The living entity is given that ‘choice’ because without it, there is no meaning to individuality or being a marginal living being.

The other angle is that by misusing our freewill we make the wrong decision and Maya immediately covers us AFTER the living entity chooses to manufacture their existence without Krishna.

Freewill is perfect and imperfect and yes it is an inconceivable truth (Acintya Tattva) It is perfect in the aspect of allowing one to freely choose to endlessly increasingly serve and it is imperfect and not suitable for Goloka when we choose to ignore Krsna. This is one reason why the Lord creates the Mahat-tattva (material creation)

The perfect aspect of this imperfection of the jiva is that you can go back to serve Krsna again. Srimad Bhagavatam 6.11.25 confirms this -

“Oh my Lord, O Supreme Personality of Godhead, will I again be able to be a servant of Your eternal servants who find shelter at Your lotus feet? Oh Lord of my life, may I again become their servant so that my mind may always engage in the loving service of Your Lordship.”

Twice Srila Prabhupada uses the word bhuyah (again), stressing the point.

When the jivas misuse freewill in Goloka, Vaikuntha it is not like a case of newly transformed envious jivas hanging around. They are instantly covered and ousted from the Lord’s realm.

Bhaktisiddhanta Thakura’s purport to text 44 of Brahma Samhita states –

“When he forgets his service of Krsna he is at once deflected by the attracting power of Maya in this world.”

On a morning walk in Vrndavana, 9-13-75 Prabhupada said: “He has given you little freedom’ you can use it. Yathecchasi tathaa kuru, Krsna says in Gita (18.63), ‘Whatever you like you do.”

Some devotees seem to think that this discussion of the “Fall, no fall of the Jiva” started after Prabhupada’s disappearance but that is not a fact.

In the early 1972, Madhudvisa had to deal with the issue in Australia while travelling around preaching on a Double Decker travelling Temple that I was also personally on and the Crow and Tal Fruit Logic letter is a result of that exchange with devotees who thought we came from the Brahmajyoti. The letter has typed parts, Prabhupada also added his own handwritten notes, and he signed the letter by hand. Madhudvisa has the letter.

In the early 1970’s, Siddhasvarupananda Swamiwas preaching that the jivas came from the Brahmajyoti and Srila Prabhupada told him not to preach that in his temples.

In a letter to Caturbhuja Dasa, L.A., 5-9-73, Prabhupada wrote him -

Srila Prabhupada – “Your last question ‘How is the soul degraded (by lust, anger and greed) when it is transcendental to the body?

Srila Prabhupada – “Doesn’t that imply that the soul has changed? ‘No. The soul never changes, but due to his tinyness, he may become forgetful of his relationship with Krsna”.

Srila Prabhupada – “The spiritual quality of the spiritual spark has not changed but he has forgotten his spiritual nature, bewildered by the imperfect desire to become equal or greater than Krsna.”

Most of the verses from Brahma Vaivarta Purana are showing how a jiva can go to Vaikuntha or Goloka but unless one’s devotion is FULLY developed he will fall back to this material world due to lack of chit (knowledge) strength.

Nevertheless, eventually he/she will return and stay permanently in Vaikuntha/Goloka, regaining his/hers authentic svarupa bodily identity that is actually permanently there in Goloka even if one forgets this fact.

Such comments seem inconceivable, but are they? Actually they are easily understood when one ‘realizes, by dent of bhakti, what the eternal present actually means’. In other words, our perpetual body is permanently locked, protected, and secured in the eternal present because there is no portal of past or future for it to ever leave. Therefore if there id fall down, it is only consciously via ones thoughts, imaginings and dreams, never as ones original body.

Now that wasn’t too difficult to understand was it?

Those verses in shastra that state that one does not fall from Vaikuntha are referring either to jivas who fell originally and are now reinstated, and generally won’t fall again or to those jivas who never fell to begin with.

Bhaktisiddhanta Thakur clarifies the point in Sri Caitanya’s Teachings, p. 101

“The position of the jiva IS a part of the tatastha-sakti that can enjoy, cease to enjoy, and go back to his original position”.

And Srila Prabhupada says in a similar vein on a morning walk:

Paramahamsa - So we can come to the spiritual world and return?

Prabhupada - Yes.

Paramahamsa - Falldown?

Prabhupada - Yes…. He goes out of his free will; again comes out, again goes. Like that. (Cheviot Hills Golf Course-5-13-73, L.A.)

Srila Prabhupada stressed the verse: Mahaajano yena gatah sa panthaa - one must follow in the footsteps of the Mahajanas

Mahabhaarata, Vana Parva, 313.117. And who is speaking these verses from Brahma Vaivarta Purana?

They happen to be Mahajanas.

Narayana Rsi is talking to Narada Rsi about what Yamaraj spoke to Savitri (Mother of the vedas). Brahma also joins in later. So, their statements carry weight.

So, for our Brahma-Vadi friends (no fall avedis) what will they do now? Maybe demonise these verses as Apa siddhantic or of the Kuyogi Sampradaya?

Or belittle the slokas as simply words to encourage the pious to do Punyas?

Or try to emphasize that these verses are fanciful imagination? Then better yet they may try to minimize these verses as secondary evidence or not authentic or as interpolations? Any way you want to cut it, there is disagreement on this point and the Patanam Slokas, will stand their ground, and support Srila Prabhupada that jivas can fall (patanam) from Vaikuntha/Goloka.

So how can apparently contradictory statements be reconciled? Jiva Goswami explains in his Krsna Sandarbha 152.9 that Vedanta Sutra states –

“If there are two contradictory statements in scripture, the first statement should be interpreted so that it does not contradict the later statement.”

So the way to employ this understanding of Jiva Goswami means that for us, the Fallvadis (as the Brahmavadis call us) we accept both ideas i.e. coming from Brahman and coming from Vaikuntha/Goloka.

The jivas coming from Brahman are those jivas who did not get liberated in Brahma’s lifetime and entered the body of Maha-Vishnu. So, when they reappear when Maha-Vishnu begins to expand universes again that occurrence is an origin because it is over a time period of trillions and trillions of years, which is like eternity.

That origin is what the Upanishads describe.

We accept the understanding that the jivas that have left their service in Vaikuntha/Goloka, due to free will, come here to the material world.

In all of this discussion one important point to understand is that to Krsna, in Krsna’s transcendental time, or reckoning, we are here in this material world for one or two seconds (NOT EVEN THAT BECAUSE NOTHING IS SEEN AS MISSING WITHIN THE ‘ETERNAL PRESENT)’.

How is this?

Again, in Brahma Vaivarta Purana, Krsna Janma Khanda, chapter 25, verse 98-99 it is stated that

“ Brahma dies when Krsna winks”.

So, if a jiva stays in a universe for the life of Lord Brahma, which is trillions of years, and then goes back to Goloka, then in Goloka, it is only an insignificant moment.

So, in real Transcendental Time (The eternal present that has no past and future as we understand it in the material perishable world) we are here for a very, very short time.

[Beggar]

The topic is supposed to be: The full potential and original feature of all living entitys is a two arm human form but is all a ruse to propagandize:

We all originate from Goloka. But you'll notice that Srila Prabhupada doesn't exactly say that, even if he does say, "some millions of years ago we came down from Vaikuntha". It will always make me wonder why he just didn't say or have this published in his books? After all he made so many statements giving his books a superior position in the realm of his teachings.

I will always wonder why a different idea is given in Srila Jiva Goswami's Paramatma Sandarbha? Or why a different idea is given in Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakur's Jaiva Dharma? Or why despite such harmonizing statement about the eternal moment, Srila Narayana Maharaja still bristles when someone asks about the idea that "we all originate from Goloka" and says that it is the wrong idea? Sarva gattah can only retort that it is all some Mayavadi conspiracy and that has always sounded like a nursery rhime explanation, as does most of his presentation. The main purchasers of his product will be the Iskcon children of Australia.

[Sonic Yogi]

Even if Srila Prabhupada did say:

 

 

"some millions of years ago we came down from Vaikuntha"

 

that does not mean that the living entity fell from one of the loving relationships with Krishna.

 

As Srila Prabhupada says in CC Adi 5.51 purport >

 

 

The impersonal glowing effulgence known as impersonal Brahman is the outer space of the Vaikuṇṭha planets in the spiritual sky.

 

So, the brahmajyoti is in Vaikuntha.

 

Falling from the brahmajyoti is tantamount to falling from Vaikuntha in the sense that the brahmajyoti is the outer space of the Vaikuntha planets.

[bija]

 

As Srila Prabhupada says in CC Adi 5.51 purport >

 

Quote:

<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="100%"><tbody><tr><td style="border: 1px solid rgb(102, 102, 102); padding-left: 3ex; padding-right: 3ex;" bgcolor="#e0e0e0"> The impersonal glowing effulgence known as impersonal Brahman is the outer space of the Vaikuṇṭha planets in the spiritual sky. </td></tr></tbody></table>quoted by sonic yogi

It has been suggested by some Gaudiya Vaisnava teachers that areas of that sky have very few spiritual planets. And that is where we have fallen from.

 

I guess once samvit functions with sandhini, and hladini - the bigger picture is revealed to the heart. Then we gain understanding of our closeness to the Lord in our constitutional position (wherever that may rest). Closeness by serving the Lord's intimate associates.

 

 

SRI KRSNA SAMHITA - Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura

http://nitaaiveda.com/All_Scriptures_By_Acharyas/Bhaktivinoda_Thakura/Amnaya_Sutra/Part_one/Chapter-II.htm

TEXT 41

sambid-rupa maha-maya linga-rupa-vidhayini

ahankaratmakam cittam baddha-jive tanoty aho

 

When the external potency of the superior energy interacts with samvit, it creates the subtle body of conditioned souls in the form of intelligence and false ego. The constitutional position of a pure living entity is beyond the gross and subtle bodies. The samvit aspect of the external potency is known in the scriptures as nescience. Due to this nescience, the gross and subtle bodies of the living entities are created. When pure living entities reside in Vaikuntha, the first knot of nescience, in the form of false ego, does not entangle them. Pure living entities cannot remain steady after giving up spiritual activities. Therefore as soon as the living entities become situated in their own happiness through the minute independence given by the Lord, they become shelterless and are compelled to take shelter of Maya. On account of this, pure living entities have no shelter other than Vaikuntha. The living entities of Vaikuntha are very insignificant, like fireflies in comparison to the powerful sunlike Lord. As soon as the living entity leaves Vaikuntha, he is simultaneously awarded a subtle body and thrown into the material world, created by Maya. All manifestations of the sandhini, samvit, and hladini aspects of the marginal potency are mixed with maya as soon as the living entity leaves the shelter of Vaikuntha. When one considers material existence as his own, this is called false ego. Absorption in this false ego is the function of the heart, cultivating material sense objects through the heart is the function of the mind, and realization through this cultivation is called material knowledge. The mind, being superior to the senses, manifests as the functions of the senses in their association. When the impression of contact between the senses and sense objects is established within, it is protected by the strength of remembrance. When one cultivates those protected memories by following the process of elaborating and condensing them, then whatever one conjectures is called argument. By this argument, knowledge of sense objects and related items is acquired.

[theist]

Well at least this is something new to this grossly worn out topic.

 

 

It has been suggested by some GaudiyaVaisnava teachers that areas of that sky have very few spiritualplanets. And that is where we have fallen from.

 

Never heard this before nor do I believe it but it would be interesting to know who these GV teachers are that teach this. Please tell us bija.

[bija]

 

Never heard this before nor do I believe it but it would be interesting to know who these GV teachers are that teach this. Please tell us bija. by theist

 

Brahmajyoti is the effulgence from Lord Gaura Krishna's divine body so it's source is directly from Goloka. So Brahmajyoti also pervades the space in which the spiritual planets are floating. The tatashtha (marginal) line which is the original place of all the non-nitya-siddha souls, is the part of the Brahmajyoti between the material and spiritual worlds which mostly does not contain any spiritual planets. by srila gurudeva

 

full context of quote can be found here in a discussion thread about fall from goloka: click

If you have questions about this siddhanta and why he said it (who he heard it from)...go to the forum and ask him. He will answer you when he has time.

 

Bye.