primate Posted January 22, 2009 Report Share Posted January 22, 2009 But is the Dalai Lama considered an infallible authority ? What do some of the Vaishnava gurus have to say about terrorism ?jeffster/AMd Infallible? Probably not. An authority? I would think so.. I think he probably intended to say: “the only way to tackle terrorism is through globaly ending poverty and by facilitating proper healthcare and education for all”. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffster Posted January 23, 2009 Report Share Posted January 23, 2009 When the slaughter of innocents by Muslim separatists started a few years ago in the southernmost 3 provinces of Thailand, the Queen of Thailand went to visit, and I believe she offered some kind of economic stimulus to the region. The slaughter has continued unabated to this day because it is NOT an economic issue, it really is an idealogical issue. Also, after thinking about Narasinghs post # 21, I gave it some more thought. When the U.S. invaded Afghanistan and Iraq, we let them keep their religion. But should they ever succeed in conquering us, do you think they would let us keep our religion ? Don't count on it. We would simply be given a choice, die or submit and convert. So please understand that this is very much an idealogical issue. I honestly think that many of the posters here are a bit naive in perceiving the actual threat of Islamic fundamentalism. Ask yourself this: In every country in which Islam is now the predominating religion, is there freedom to practice other religions ? To a small degree, in some countries, yes. But, in Malaysia alone, over 10,000 Buddhist and Hindu temples have been destroyed in recent years. The fundamentalists are now attempting to gain nuclear weapons and they have every intention of using them. What is even worse is that the so-called moderate Muslims do nothing to stop the fundamentalists, which leads to the next question - Is there even such a thing as moderate Islam ? jeffster/AMd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Narasingh Posted January 23, 2009 Report Share Posted January 23, 2009 Have you all seen this short film "Fitna"? Part 1: <embed src="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5kcev1K-NOc&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"> Part 2: <embed src="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TdLMFs4fv4E&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Narasingh Posted January 23, 2009 Report Share Posted January 23, 2009 What I find most disturbing is the allowance of persons in leadership roles to perpetuate mass hatred. When will the "true muslims" (the ones who say these others are radical fundamentalists) take control over their religion? Some people argue that it is some kind of government conspiracy. My question is which government put the young Morrocan up to task to butcher Theo van Gogh in the streets; shoot him twice, slice his throat, and stab a knife through a note into his chest threatening an actress to suffer a similar fate. Didn't the young Morrocan have a choice? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffster Posted January 23, 2009 Report Share Posted January 23, 2009 What I find most disturbing is the allowance of persons in leadership roles to perpetuate mass hatred. When will the "true muslims" (the ones who say these others are radical fundamentalists) take control over their religion? Some people argue that it is some kind of government conspiracy. My question is which government put the young Morrocan up to task to butcher Theo van Gogh in the streets; shoot him twice, slice his throat, and stab a knife through a note into his chest threatening an actress to suffer a similar fate. Didn't the young Morrocan have a choice? Sorry, learning to use the "quote" function. See my post # 32, below. jeffster/AMd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
primate Posted January 23, 2009 Report Share Posted January 23, 2009 Well, that's terrorism I guess.. You just can't control it.. Perhaps we can prevent it.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffster Posted January 23, 2009 Report Share Posted January 23, 2009 Narasingh, that movie was very disturbing. Every Vaishnava should see it. Then, "armed with knowledge, stand and fight." If you read the Koran verses quoted in the movie you can see that there is no such thing as moderate Islam. It is a radical "religion" through and through, and has as its only purpose world domination, per Muslim's own statements and the Koran verses shown in the movie. That will answer your question ""When will the "true muslims" ... take control over their religion?"" True muslims are all hoping that their "religion" will take over the world, that is why they don't resist the fundamentalists. The entire religion is only a narrow, fundamentalist approach to religion. That should be seen very clearly, without doubt. Vaishnavas should be alarmed at this, because it could affect us directly by limiting our right to freedom of religion in countries in which Islam ascends to power. Therefore, we must resist this onslaught on all fronts. Hare Krishna. jeffster/AMd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffster Posted January 23, 2009 Report Share Posted January 23, 2009 Primate, If you don't control, or at least resist terrorists, they will control you. jeffster/AMd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
primate Posted January 23, 2009 Report Share Posted January 23, 2009 Primate, If you don't control, or at least resist terrorists, they will control you.jeffster/AMd Yeh.. right.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffster Posted January 23, 2009 Report Share Posted January 23, 2009 Primate, you're sitting comfortably in front of your computer in a relatively safe country with no terrorism going on, at least not currently, feeling no particular threat... Maybe you're even chanting, feeling peaceful and enlivened. The idealogical war continues, however. Read this: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7842344.stm Incidentally, you mention preventing terrorism. How do you propose to do that ? jeffster/AMd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
primate Posted January 23, 2009 Report Share Posted January 23, 2009 Primate, you're sitting comfortably in front of your computer in a relatively safe country with no terrorism going on, at least not currently, feeling no particular threat... Maybe you're even chanting, feeling peaceful and enlivened. The idealogical war continues, however. Read this:http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7842344.stm Incidentally, I am Dutch, and the legal case against Wilders must be just a joke. If it is not a joke, then it will be a trial against the freedom of speech. Incidentally, you mention preventing terrorism. How do you propose to do that ? As I said above: "perhaps through globally ending poverty and by facilitating proper healthcare and education for all". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffster Posted January 23, 2009 Report Share Posted January 23, 2009 I've already stated that the issue is ideological, not one of economics or health care. You have not refuted my statement. The legal case against Mr. Geert Wilders is not a joke; it is a real case. In fact it demonstrates that there is an ideological battle going on here. If there were not an ideological battle, there would not be a case against Mr. Wilders. Does Mr. Wilders have freedom of speech, or do only Islamic radicals have freedom of speech ? jeffster/AMd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amlesh Posted January 23, 2009 Report Share Posted January 23, 2009 Yes, Amlesh, you hit the nail on the head when you suggest that the root of the problem is our own ignorance. Prabhupad put it nicely in Krishna Book, in Prayers to the Personified Vedas - "Because of ignorance, these living entities are misidentifying themselves in different species of life, and especially when they are elevated to the human form of life, they identify with a particular class of men, or a particular nation or race or so-called religion, forgetting their real identity as eternal servants of Your Lordship." Yes, all parties to this conflict are corrupted. No one serves dharma. There are only gradations of demonism, shades of black and gray, no white knights. From my own prior post it is clear that America has done horrible things: the firebombing of Tokyo in WW2, which killed 150,000 in one night, the bombing of Dresden, and the ghastly annihilation of Hiroshima and Nagasaki - none of this was justifiable. The USA could have blockaded the Japanese archipilego while targetting military installations, but Truman wanted a quick way out to save the countless lives of U.S. soldiers that would have been lost had we been forced to invade Japan. If any single country should be prevented from having nuclear weapons, it should be the USA. However, in WW2, the US was not the aggressor, but was responding to the bombing of Pearl Harbor and the Blitzkrieg of London. So the reason for that war was not trivial, it was self-defense, which was justifiable. Yes Jeffster, and also not forgetting the Vietnamese War... they say they are fighting evil but it in the end their own intention were evil. There is a big difference in one's thinking of this being Good and what Good is actually. Now the aggressors are fanatical fundamentalists hiding behind the skirts and burkhas of civilians. Truthfully, there is no easy way to deal with this. It is truly a Kali-yuga conflict. Yet we can readily see that the fundamentalists are more evil than those they hate. Even some of their positions I can understand and appreciate; for example, they are aghast at the open sexual promiscuity demonstrated in the western lands. But if they truly have the moral high ground as they claim, why don't they preach by example with compassion and tolerance ? That they do not do. They only want to kill those with whom they disagree. And it is for this reason that they must be opposed. jeffster/AMD In truth, many organisation do hold some genuine people with their good intention but without having really elevated from the material mode of goodness.Many times, when opportunity came in front of me, I sat and listened to many discourses from the Head of many religious organisation... saying what we do is great works like helping poor and contributing here and there and which I consider worst, guiding people. However, without accepting the Lord as the all and all and without fixing our mind and consciousness with the Supreme and without overcoming the 3 modes of material nature, any job undertaken, how much Good intent it might contain.. is in reality full of errors.. its consequences will contain atleast some dark Spot. That's why Krishna smiled in the beginning of the Bhagwad Gita while listening to Arjuna and his words of wisdom.. Krishna said you are mourning for things which are not worthy and also outlining moral values that is seemingly wise but in reality without substance. The wise fixes his Mind with the one who is PERFECTION incarnate that is KRSNA and all his moves is in accordance with KRSNA and hence not affected by any ulterior motives with his actions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
primate Posted January 23, 2009 Report Share Posted January 23, 2009 I've already stated that the issue is ideological, not one of economics or health care. You have not refuted my statement. The legal case against Mr. Geert Wilders is not a joke; it is a real case. In fact it demonstrates that there is an ideological battle going on here. If there were not an ideological battle, there would not be a case against Mr. Wilders. Does Mr. Wilders have freedom of speech, or do only Islamic radicals have freedom of speech ? jeffster/AMd Where do you think bad ideologies come from? It's probably best to grant one and all the freedom to speak whatever one and all wants to speak. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffster Posted January 23, 2009 Report Share Posted January 23, 2009 "It's probably best to grant one and all the freedom to speak whatever one and all wants to speak." Apparently the Dutch government doesn't see it that way, as they are attempting to censure Mr. Wilders. They are already afraid of their Islamic minority and are kow-towing to them to keep a (temporary) peace. Your Dutch PM is a coward for not standing up for Mr. Wilders' right to make his movie. Amlesh, should you just let them invade India in their little boats and kill the innocents ? India will become a laughing stock. 10 men in little boats invade India and have their way with the populace. No one can stop these supermen in little boats !! Does no one on this panel see the need for action ? Krishna urged Arjuna to action !! Where are the kshatriyas ? Alas, there are none left. And this isn't real either; its just a polite discussion somewhere in cyberspace. jeffster/AMd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sephiroth Posted January 23, 2009 Report Share Posted January 23, 2009 Sephiroth.. I do understand all that.. but Asvathama was someone who sided the Evil Route...So his thinking was like that... In the Army that was guided by Sri Krishna.. the correct War Code was conducted. No, HE WAS NOT. Asvathama had the blessing of Maha Eshawara and he was present when the rules of engagement (in battle) have been agreed upon. He was also there when the war have ended and everyone (regardless whether it is from Pandavas or Kauravas) have retired to their side at the end of the war. HE CHOOSE TO DO WHAT HE DID. There is NO GOOD OR EVIL here. There are ONLY choices. NO ONE is born Good or Evil. IF that is the case, then it could be useless to have Free Will and even the need to believe in God for we are born with a ability to achieve Moksha / Enlightnment / Ascension. Good or Evil is NOT determined by God/Gods. It is determined by Ourselves and how we do things. Asvathama CHOOSE to do what he wanted. And in same way, Muslims are choosing to do evil because they choose to do so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sephiroth Posted January 23, 2009 Report Share Posted January 23, 2009 Well, that's terrorism I guess.. You just can't control it.. Perhaps we can prevent it.. There is NO prevention, there is ONLY WAR. Terrorism can only be solve by act of War, just as World War 2 have put an end to another madman called Adolf Hitler. That is God's warning to everyone (who is Non-Muslims) on what fanatics are and how to deal with them. TAKE NOTE. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffster Posted January 23, 2009 Report Share Posted January 23, 2009 Pakistan terrorist to Pakistan terrorist: They're not going to do anything !! Send the next 10 boats in, this time to Gujarat !! Allahu akbar !! Terrorism can be prevented, or at least stopped, through war. jeffster/AMd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sephiroth Posted January 23, 2009 Report Share Posted January 23, 2009 Pakistan terrorist to Pakistan terrorist: They're not going to do anything !! Send the next 10 boats in, this time to Gujarat !! Allahu akbar !!jeffster/AMd And God willing, we will be sending one boat ... with a nuke. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Narasingh Posted January 23, 2009 Report Share Posted January 23, 2009 primate, you are absolutely right about ending poverty as a step towards global peace. This is a must. Without this, there will always be some sort of de-structuring of the "system" since the "system" isn't truly working. Freedom of speech is a relative idea. That is what most publications of hatred usually endeavor to substantiate themselves through. There must be some pragmatic executive decisions on this. The saddest thing for me is to see that two sides are clearly becoming polarized and they are determining that the value of life for each other is negligible so long as they get what they want. I've often wondered about the significance of Maharaja Parikshit not destroying the personification of Kali, and how that relates to Dharma. It would seem that if he were to have just executed Kali we wouldn't have the problems we are facing today. Yet he chose not to, in the face of blatant proof of Kali's offenses. In contrast, the Koran seems to have a zero tolerance stance against anything it deems Adharmic. Any thoughts? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amlesh Posted January 23, 2009 Report Share Posted January 23, 2009 Amlesh, should you just let them invade India in their little boats and kill the innocents ? India will become a laughing stock. 10 men in little boats invade India and have their way with the populace. No one can stop these supermen in little boats !! Does no one on this panel see the need for action ? Krishna urged Arjuna to action !! Where are the kshatriyas ? Alas, there are none left. And this isn't real either; its just a polite discussion somewhere in cyberspace. jeffster/AMd Of course not.. the duty of the Ksatriya should prime. The inability to sense all that, the missing measures for defense and also not strengthening the boundaries are the sins incurred by the Government officials. All that have been spoken in the Gita. In truth, what is happening today.. invading Iraq for their so-called freedom with the Hidden Agenda of OIL, the Same for Afganistan.. prior to September 11, nothing wrong was seen, but after than only Evil... It is a known fact that, more suffering was there after the war, but I'll also agree that a reform was needed on those countries.. but not when some ulterior motives of selfishness is shining in the mind. War, not war, Ahimsa, Himsa are only measures which cannot be really categorized as good or bad.. but the intention prior to waging those wars can certainly be categorized as such. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amlesh Posted January 23, 2009 Report Share Posted January 23, 2009 No, HE WAS NOT. Asvathama had the blessing of Maha Eshawara and he was present when the rules of engagement (in battle) have been agreed upon. He was also there when the war have ended and everyone (regardless whether it is from Pandavas or Kauravas) have retired to their side at the end of the war. HE CHOOSE TO DO WHAT HE DID. Agreed.. In the pure spiritual sense. There is no Evil. But in the Karmic sense, it is. He is made to so-called pay for his Deeds till the end of Kalyuga. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffster Posted January 23, 2009 Report Share Posted January 23, 2009 "In contrast, the Koran seems to have a zero tolerance stance against anything it deems Adharmic." Doesn't it seem quite obvious by now that they are intolerant ? They call theirs the straight path, whereas we have learned that to find Krishna we must be flexible, as the path takes many twists and turns, and Krishna is not so easily or cheaply purchased. I would add that the destination must also be different. The name "Allah" is from the first letter of the Hebrew alphabet, "Aleph." Aleph is to the Hebrews what the Om is to the Hindus. If you meditate on the letter Aleph, you may see that Brahman is there behind it. But that is the extent to which both Islam and the Hebrew religion take their seekers, and 99.999% of them don't even know about Aleph as a meditation symbol. jeffster/AMd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Narasingh Posted January 23, 2009 Report Share Posted January 23, 2009 isavasyam idam sarvam yat kinca jagatyam jagat tena tyaktena bhunjitha ma grdhah kasya svid dhanam kurvann eveha karmani jijivisec chatam samah evam tvayi nanyatheto 'sti na karma lipyate nare (paraphrasing) Know that Bhagavan is the Supreme Controller, take only what is necessary for your subsistence, and go on living in this manner. Don't be a victim to your senses or other's. Act for Bhagavan. Do what is necessary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Narasingh Posted January 23, 2009 Report Share Posted January 23, 2009 *edited* a redundant post Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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