kaisersose Posted January 21, 2009 Report Share Posted January 21, 2009 I personally rejected the "fall-down" theory a long time ago. The one fundamental problem with a fall-down theory is, it can happen again. The soul caught in material bondage can strive very hard and go back to Krishna and then, repeat the same mistake all over again and fall down. The Gita very clearly says Krishna's abode is a place of no return. The only way one can accept a fall-down theory is to reject a direct statement by Krishna himself in favor of something said by someone else. Cheers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sonic Yogi Posted January 21, 2009 Report Share Posted January 21, 2009 the christian idea of eternal damnation, or the idea of nitya-baddha (eternally conditioned)...may simply mean an inconceivably long time! To me it simply means that the jiva having once been manifested in the material world will be bound here indefinitely unless and until he gets liberation. There is no time line. So, eternal unless and until he get's liberated. If a man is sentenced to life in prison, then he will be there for life. That is unless he gets a pardon from the Governor. If he becomes a model citizen then he can get out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beggar Posted January 21, 2009 Report Share Posted January 21, 2009 As Beggar is suggesting vision of this world may depend on our angle of vision. To use Srila Sridhar Maharaja's terminology: [angle of vision] not just of this world which is the negative plane, or the tatastha region which is the abscissa (0), but also of course the positive world, the land of dedication. as Srila Bhativinoda Thakur has said in his speech The Bhagavat, "no thought is a bad thought." So behind each thought although it may be imperfect, or in error, there is some reality. The thesis will always provoke an antithesis which will lead to a synthesis. Synthesis is possible because there is some underlying truth in a theory although fraught with so much contradiction. The antithesis accentuates the contradiction and together they give birth to the synthesis. This is only possible where the truth is a living conception which is progressive and not static. The Thakur has told us that students should be like satellites who reflect the truth, not like the magistrates who shackle the prisioners. Prabhupada may have said many things but his "followers" are not to imprison those ideas in the dungeon of our static conception of reality. The tendency to cling to one angle of vision, only and to be overly attached to the presentation of that vision IOW, the style of language, the syntax, the accent etc. is symptomatic of this pitfall. Unfortunately the thinking public is all too aware that this has run rampant in Iskcon and Iskcon circles. Those who manifest this phenomenum are like broken records; the same thing, over and over again. In the atmosphere that they create there is no real possibility of discussion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sonic Yogi Posted January 21, 2009 Report Share Posted January 21, 2009 The one fundamental problem with a fall-down theory is, it can happen again. The soul caught in material bondage can strive very hard and go back to Krishna and then, repeat the same mistake all over again and fall down. Cheers Exactly, but ISKCON devotees have manufactured some theory that you can only fall once and then you learn your lesson and never fall down again. There again, one of the modern ISKCON myths that have been screwed out of some things Srila Prabhupada spoke. Jesus spoke in parables. Prabhupada spoke in metaphor many times. The metaphorical approach can be helpful, but I don't think western people are as simple and gullible as they might have appeared to be to Srila Prabhupada. Maybe Hindus are simple and gullible, but westerners are very shrewd. The movement has clearly caught up with some ISKCON myths that are now showing to be quite the burden as Gaudiya Vaishnavism has mushroomed largely outside of ISKCON since the passing of Srila Prabhupada. Many things, like the situation of the Godbrothers of Srila Prabhupada have caught up as well with ISKCON and is dogging ISKCON quite embarrassingly. The metaphorical stories and myths have about run their course and run out of their usefulness. The bad talk about the Godbrothers has surely become an embarrassment to ISKCON as the movement is passing them by even though they control the properties of Srila Prabhupada. If they didn't control the ISKCON assets, they wouldn't have much of anything going for them. They are being gurus with borrowed plumes that are the properties of Srila Prabhupada. The fall theory is ISKCON exclusive. But, the KC movement is alive and well outside of ISKCON and exposing ISKCON as being somewhat of a laughing stock when it comes to certain aspects of the Gaudiya siddhanta. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beggar Posted January 21, 2009 Report Share Posted January 21, 2009 Snonic Snogi: What's your take my post #28? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bija Posted January 21, 2009 Report Share Posted January 21, 2009 I dont know what snog:crazy2: thinks...but I would say a mind leading toward synthesis seems natural at some point in development. The natural flow. Other wise the angst is quite itching...and the stones quite large... I appreciate your post, lets hope the world does;). Little by little... Little by little, my heart green Little by little, I call your name Little by little, my tears fall Little by little, everything changes Little by little, the time goes Little by little, the days pass by Little by little, the air clears Little by little, I can breathe again I can breathe again -- Back at the mirror - your good friend Talk to the mirror, but play out your game Sat in the middle, I stop then Look at the winner, and the price you pay Close the window - I tremble Love was a fall that had no end Now little by little - the air clears Little by little, I can breathe again I can breathe again -- I call your name - I call your name I call your name - I call your name Everything changes - everything changes I call your name I can breathe again -- r. plant Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sonic Yogi Posted January 21, 2009 Report Share Posted January 21, 2009 Snonic Snogi: What's your take my post #28? Well, when Bhaktivinoda said "no thought is a bad thought" I don't think he was meaning any thought in the world is not a bad thought. If I thought about killing my spiritual master, then that would surely be a bad thought. What Bhaktivinode is talking about is the Bhagavatam and it's seemingly ancient and outdated concepts. He says: The Bhagavata like all religious works and philosophical performances and writings of great men has suffered from the imprudent conduct of useless readers and stupid critics. The former have done so much injury to the work that they have surpassed the later in their evil consequence. Men of brilliant thoughts have passed by the work in quest of truth and philosophy, but the prejudice which. they imbibed from its useless readers and their conduct prevented them from making a candid investigation. So, Bhaktivinode was defending the thought of the Bhagavat, not any thought than any person can come up with. There again he was trying to cause people to approach the Bhagavat with an open mind. The Bhagavata has suffered alike from shallow critics both Indian and outlandish. That book has been accursed and denounced by a great number of our young countrymen, who have scarcely read its contents and pondered over the philosophy on which it is founded. It is owing mostly to their imbibing an unfounded prejudice against it when they were in school. The Bhagavata, as a matter of course, has been held in derision by those teachers, who are generally of an inferior mind and intellect. There again statements always have a context and the broader context of the statement must be considered in order to get the meaning of the statement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beggar Posted January 21, 2009 Report Share Posted January 21, 2009 So, Bhaktivinode was defending the thought of the Bhagavat, not any thought than any person can come up with. There again he was trying to cause people to approach the Bhagavat with an open mind. Dear Snonic Snogi, But my point is that the idea that the fallen jivas are dreaming their material lives from Goloka does have some truth in it and is not and absurd idea, but rather it simply an idea which is being misapplied. The previous acaryas used the analysis that Srila Sridhar Maharaja is giving: that the land of exploitation is negative, the land of dedication is positive and the brahmajyoti is the tatastha position or the abscissa or 0 (zero) point. From the standpoint of time, the jiva has a beginning and the beginning point is 0 (zero), because in this context zero means beginning. The abscissa or 0 (zero) point (tatastha position) is also a point of resting or lack of activity. This can also be seen as equalibrium. The baddha jiva also has the potential to again return to the point of equalibrium or "merge with brahman". But because of the inherant personal and active nature of the jiva, he/she will again become activated and again leave the brahmajyoti. ye 'nye 'ravindaksa vimukta-maninas tvayy asta-bhavad avisuddha-buddhayah aruhya krcchrena param padam tatah patanty adho 'nadrta-yusmad-anghrayah [sB 10.2.32] From the viewpoint of eternity we may see that if we are going back to Godhead then since there is no time in eternity then from that angle of vision, we are already there. But this is only from the viewpoint of the jiva being origin-less or eternal. Dreamer-vad overextends certain concepts given by Srila Prabhupada for preaching purposes for persons who had no real chance of understanding the complexities of the higher siddhantas. Gauragopal's Dreamer-vad Theory misapplies and mixes up different concepts, but their thoughts on this subject are not bad thoughts per se. The revealers of the Gaudiya Siddhanta such as Srila Jiva Goswami also had to deal with so many apparent contradictions in the duality between time and eternity and through their divine genius have given some deep ideas which can help us along in our sojourn. The siddhanta they gave perfectly harmonizes opposites and reveals Sri Krsna as the All-Harmonizing aspect of Reality. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shakti-Fan Posted January 21, 2009 Report Share Posted January 21, 2009 Question: Why did the nitya baddha cross the tatastha road? Answers: Because he wanted to get to the other side. He's already at the other side of the road. There is no road, the nitya baddha is the road. He's dreaming that he's on the other side of road. He's dreaming that he's on this side of the road. He's dreaming that there is a road. He's dreaming that there is no road He's daydreaming that he has nothing to do except post on this stupid website. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raghu Posted January 21, 2009 Report Share Posted January 21, 2009 Ok friends, it's time for me to drop a bomb of siddhanta on this topic and reveal a little known fact of spiritual knowledge. This is of course not going to be accepted by those who prefer to put their head in the sand and pretend that Srila Prabhupada never actually put this in his books, but HE DID. We did not FALL DOWN!! We never fell down from anywhere, not even the brahmajyoti. We came to the material world by THE WILL OF KRISHNA. It was never our decision to make. Krishna put us here out of his own sweet will. The jiva souls don't fall down. They are sent to the material world by the will of God. Where in scripture is the above mentioned? Because factually this viewpoint is very much at odds with the aphorism in the Vedanta Sutra that explains that the karma of the jIva-s is beginningless. If the jIva-s came to the material world at some point in time then their karma would have a beginning, which brings up the objection of God's partiality. The idea of a compassionate God is not consistent with the idea that God sends people into the material world where they will suffer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sonic Yogi Posted January 22, 2009 Report Share Posted January 22, 2009 the Vedanta Sutra that explains that the karma of the jIva-s is beginningless. could you please quote the reference? I think it means that karma is an eternal principle. God is eternal, the material worlds are an eternal happening and the principle of karma is an eternal fact. Not that the karma of every living entity is eternal. Karma is as eternal as the living entities are. But, the karma of every individual jiva has some beginning, though it cannot be traced out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kaisersose Posted January 22, 2009 Report Share Posted January 22, 2009 Karma (and therefore rebirth) is accepted as beginningless (anadi) not just by Advaita, Dvaita and V-Dvaita, but by Jainism and Buddhism too. Interestingly, Bhakti Vinoda has written about anadi Karma (beginningless Karma) in his Gitavali. I think I may be able to produce an exact reference if people do not believe me. Now if people want to twist his words around and say "that is not what he meant..." or "he could not not have meant that...", I have absolutely no objections. Your Guru, your interpretations...whatever works for you. But the way I read it, BVT has explicitly rejected the "fall theory" by accepting Anadi Karma. Beginningless does not mean eternal. The belief is though Karma is beginningless, it has an end and is therefore not eternal. Cheers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bija Posted January 22, 2009 Report Share Posted January 22, 2009 please do look up that gitavali quote kaiser. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sonic Yogi Posted January 22, 2009 Report Share Posted January 22, 2009 Vedanta-sutra II.I.35 Na karmavibhagaditi chet na anaditvat II.1.35 (169) If it be objected that it (viz., the Lord's having regard to merit and demerit) is not possible on account of the non-distinction (of merit and demerit before creation), (we say) no, because of (the world) being without a beginning. Na: not; Karmavibhagat: because of the non-distinction of work (before creation); Iti chet: if it be said, if it be objected in this way; Na: no, the objection cannot stand; Anaditvat: because of beginninglessness. An objection against Sutra 34 is raised and refuted. The Sutra consists of two parts, viz., an objection and its reply. The objective portion is 'Na karmavibhagaditi chet' and the reply portion is 'Na anaditvat'. An objection is raised now. The Sruti says, "Being only this was in the beginning, one without a second." There was no distinction of works before creation of the world. There was only the absolutely One Real Being or Brahman. The creation at the beginning of one man as rich and of another as poor and unhappy cannot certainly depend on the respective previous good or bad deeds. The first creation must have been free from inequalities. This objection cannot stand. The creation of the world is also without a beginning. There was never a time that may be said to be an absolute beginning. The question of first creation cannot arise. Creation and destruction of the world following each other continually by rotation is without any beginning and end. The condition of individual souls in any particular cycle of creation is predetermined by their actions in the previous cycle. It cannot be said that there could be no Karma prior to creation, which causes the diversity of creation, because Karma is Anadi (beginningless). Creation is only the shoot from a pre-existing seed of Karma. As the world is without a beginning, merit and inequality are like seed and sprout. There is an unending chain of the relation of cause and effect as in the case of the seed and the sprout. Therefore, there is no contradiction present in the Lord's creative activity. Look and see if this sutra is saying that the karma of every individual jiva is eternal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kaisersose Posted January 22, 2009 Report Share Posted January 22, 2009 please do look up that gitavali quote kaiser. Yes, I knew people would not believe me. Here is evidence, http://krishnadharma.com/blog/?p=111 And just in case some people may wonder If I created that site myself and inserted bogus material to fool mankind (or something like that), here is corroboration - both in english and bengali. http://kksongs.org/language/unicode/anadikaramaphale_beng.html http://kksongs.org/songs/a/anadikaramaphale.html Happy Reading! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beggar Posted January 22, 2009 Report Share Posted January 22, 2009 ...The living entity forgets what to do. First of all he makes a determination to act in a certain way, and then he is entangled in the actions and reactions of his own karma. After giving up one type of body, he enters another type of body, as we put on and take off old clothes. As the soul thus migrates, he suffers the actions and reactions of his past activities. These activities can be changed when the living being is in the mode of goodness, in sanity, and understands what sort of activities he should adopt. If he does so, then all the actions and reactions of his past activities can be changed. Consequently, karma is not eternal. Therefore we stated that of the five items (isvara, jiva, prakrti, time and karma) four are eternal, whereas karma is not eternal." Bhagavad-gita As It Is, Introduction Bhaktivedanta VedaBase: Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta Madhya 20.117 kṛṣṇa bhuli' sei jīva anādi-bahirmukha ataeva māyā tāre deya saḿsāra-duḥkha SYNONYMS kṛṣṇa bhuli' — forgetting Kṛṣṇa; sei jīva — that living entity; anādi — from time immemorial; bahir-mukha — attracted by the external feature; ataeva — therefore; māyā — illusory energy; tāre — to him; deya — gives; saḿsāra-duḥkha — miseries of material existence. TRANSLATION "Forgetting Kṛṣṇa, the living entity has been attracted by the external feature from time immemorial. Therefore the illusory energy [māyā] gives him all kinds of misery in his material existence. PURPORT When the living entity forgets his constitutional position as an eternal servant of Kṛṣṇa, he is immediately entrapped by the illusory, external energy. The living entity is originally part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa and is therefore the superior energy of Kṛṣṇa. He is endowed with inconceivable minute energy that works inconceivably within the body. However, the living entity, forgetting his position, is situated in material energy. The living entity is called the marginal energy because by nature he is spiritual but by forgetfulness he is situated in the material energy. Thus he has the power to live either in the material energy or in the spiritual energy, and for this reason he is called marginal energy. Being in the marginal position, he is sometimes attracted by the external, illusory energy, and this is the beginning of his material life. When he enters the material energy, he is subjected to the threefold time measurement — past, present and future. Past, present and future belong only to the material world; they do not exist in the spiritual world. The living entity is eternal, and he existed before the creation of this material world. Unfortunately he has forgotten his relationship with Kṛṣṇa. The living entity's forgetfulness is described herein as anādi, which indicates that it has existed since time immemorial. One should understand that due to his desire to enjoy himself in competition with Kṛṣṇa, the living entity comes into material existence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bija Posted January 22, 2009 Report Share Posted January 22, 2009 Yes, I knew people would not believe me. Here is evidence that is not my mood...just want to read a learn...no reason to doubt you. thx for the links. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sonic Yogi Posted January 22, 2009 Report Share Posted January 22, 2009 Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 3.26.22 svacchatvam avikāritvaḿ śāntatvam iti cetasaḥ vṛttibhir lakṣaṇaḿ proktaḿ yathāpāḿ prakṛtiḥ parā SYNONYMS svacchatvam — clarity; avikāritvam — freedom from all distraction; śāntatvam — serenity; iti — thus; cetasaḥ — of consciousness; vṛttibhiḥ — by characteristics; lakṣaṇam — traits; proktam — called; yathā — as; apām — of water; prakṛtiḥ — natural state; parā — pure. TRANSLATION After the manifestation of the mahat-tattva, these features appear simultaneously. As water in its natural state, before coming in contact with earth, is clear, sweet and unruffled, so the characteristic traits of pure consciousness are complete serenity, clarity, and freedom from distraction. PURPORT The pure status of consciousness, or Kṛṣṇa consciousness, exists in the beginning; just after creation, consciousness is not polluted. The more one becomes materially contaminated, however, the more consciousness becomes obscured. In pure consciousness one can perceive a slight reflection of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. As in clear, unagitated water, free from impurities, one can see everything clearly, so in pure consciousness, or Kṛṣṇa consciousness, one can see things as they are. One can see the reflection of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and one can see his own existence as well. This state of consciousness is very pleasing, transparent and sober. In the beginning, consciousness is pure. According to the Srimad Bhagavatam consciousness was pure in the beginning. Then contamination started to set it. So, from the state of pure consciousness, karma started to happen. It is called beginningless because nobody can trace out the specific time in which the jiva started his karma. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beggar Posted January 22, 2009 Report Share Posted January 22, 2009 One can see the reflection of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and one can see his own existence as well. This state of consciousness is very pleasing, transparent and sober. In the beginning, consciousness is pure. Hmmm...doesn't sound like the cowherd boys fighting and wrestling or the gopis anxiously awaiting Krsna's afternoon return with the grazing cows, calves and gopas. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gHari Posted January 22, 2009 Report Share Posted January 22, 2009 But no one notices, except those who are awakened to their own unfortunate position. SrI Caitanya MahAprabhu prays in His SikSASTaka (7): yugAyitaM nimeSeNa cakSuSA prAvRSAyitam zUnyAyitaM jagat sarvaM govinda-viraheNa me "O Govinda! Feeling Your separation, I am considering a moment to be like twelve years or more. Tears are flowing from My eyes like torrents of rain, and I am feeling all vacant in the world in Your absence." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gHari Posted January 22, 2009 Report Share Posted January 22, 2009 Twelve years? That means an eighty year life on earth without Govinda seems like 30 billion years. That sounds pretty baddddd nitya-wise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beggar Posted January 22, 2009 Report Share Posted January 22, 2009 But no one notices, except those who are awakened to their own unfortunate position. SrI Caitanya MahAprabhu prays in His SikSASTaka (7): yugAyitaM nimeSeNa cakSuSA prAvRSAyitam zUnyAyitaM jagat sarvaM govinda-viraheNa me "O Govinda! Feeling Your separation, I am considering a moment to be like twelve years or more. Tears are flowing from My eyes like torrents of rain, and I am feeling all vacant in the world in Your absence." Rasa tattva and regular tattva are not the same. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bija Posted January 22, 2009 Report Share Posted January 22, 2009 That sounds pretty baddddd nitya-wise. that's it in a way though...earth is perfect place to discover rasa and heart ache:cool:. mind blowing really to perceive all the wonders of this universe, and at the core of this conscious manifestation, beauty and charm. amazing place..no mistake about it. we are fortunate conscious beings.. 'krsna, who are you? who are you really?' vidyapati Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Narasingh Posted January 22, 2009 Report Share Posted January 22, 2009 Some say there are two classes of souls one is nitya siddha(eternally liberated) and the other is nitya baddha (eternally bound by matter). Others like Srila Prabhupada tell us that nitya-baddha really means bound so long it seems beginningless. I accept his explanation. If nitya baddha really means some souls are destined to be eternally conditioned then what is the point of preaching to the nitya baddha's by the liberated souls? What seems black and white will become at once colorful and gradient when gifted with the proper filters. One of the wonderful features of Svayam Bhagavan is omnipotent. While we jivas are fractionally potent, Sri Krsna is omnipotent. Your last sentence reduces the omnipotent feature of the Personality of Godhead by not allowing Divine Mercy to take an eternally bound jiva and unbind them. In a sense you have to be on guard for the false dichotomy you've provided. You've given us two classifications of the jiva (tatastha shakti) and then stated that one is destined to be eternally conditioned. We must observe that the Mercy of Sri Krsna is great enough to alter one's composition i.e. from nitya baddha to nitya siddha. This is the variable we are searching for. This saranagati to the Mercy of Sri Krsna while knowing we have no empiric capacity. While considering this appeal, You will only be able to count my faults. You will not find even a trace of good qualities in me. You are known throughout the creation as Jagannatha. Therefore do I, a worthless soul living within this universe, not have the right to accept You as my master? -- Vidyapati Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theist Posted January 22, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 22, 2009 Narasingh, I believe you are mis-reading me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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