nitya baddha

[Narasingh]

Theist,

In defining nitya baddha, we must relieve the unconditional from its definition (eternally bound by matter). (This relief is based on the omnipotence of Svayam Bhagavan).

When this relief is given to its definition, it makes perfect sense for a perfect soul to assist the imperfect.

[raghu]

 

Look and see if this sutra is saying that the karma of every individual jiva is eternal.

 

No, what it is saying is that the karma of the jivas is beginningless, which was the point I made earlier, and which is accepted by all genuine Vaishnava Vedantins. And that pretty much negates any idea of "falling into the material world."

[Sonic Yogi]

 

No, what it is saying is that the karma of the jivas is beginningless, which was the point I made earlier, and which is accepted by all genuine Vaishnava Vedantins. And that pretty much negates any idea of "falling into the material world."

 

Well, there is brahma-karma - spiritual activities as well.

What kind of karma is the point.

 

Not all karma is material.

 

The jiva has eternally been engaged in some kind of karma either material or spiritual

 

brahmaiva tena gantavyaḿ

brahma-karma-samādhinā

 

I don't have a problem with the idea that the karma of every conditioned jiva is eternal, but I don't think the statements in the shastra are really specific enough to say that the everyone's karma is eternal.

The term "karma" has more than one use.

 

I also don't have a problem with the idea that jivas are eternally becoming disintegrated with brahman and becoming conditioned souls.

 

We do know from shastra that any living entity in the brahmajyoti can fall down due to lack of sufficient devotional service.

 

Shastra also says that some jivas get liberated into the brahmajyoti and fall down again.

 

So, the shastric statement as far as I can see doesn't specifically say that the karma of every individual soul is eternal.

 

Besides, that, karma is burned-up as the reactions take effect.

 

So, once one has suffered the reaction to some karma then that karma is expired though some new karma can be generated.

 

So, the statement "karma is anadi" does not convince me that it means that every living entity involved in karma has always been so for absolute eternity.

 

Jaya and Vijaya fell down from the plane of no karma to get involved in karma.

So, their karma had a beginning when they stopped the four Kumaras from entering the Vaikuntha gate.

[Narasingh]

 

Jaya and Vijaya fell down from the plane of no karma to get involved in karma.

So, their karma had a beginning when they stopped the four Kumaras from entering the Vaikuntha gate.<hr style="color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" size="1">

 

Jaya and Vijaya are liberated souls. For Lila they advented in this realm. They were "cursed" by the 4 Kumaras, who are also liberated souls.

 

Since both these statements are non-falsifiable given our current pramana it would be a matter of perspective. How were you described the Glories of the Eternal Personal Realm of Bhagavan?

[raghu]

 

Well, there is brahma-karma - spiritual activities as well.

What kind of karma is the point.

 

Not all karma is material.

 

The jiva has eternally been engaged in some kind of karma either material or spiritual

 

No, no, no. You haven't read the sutras or you have not understood the logic of the arguments. It is very clear from context that "brahma karma" is excluded from the discussion. The discussion in the sutras clearly centers around karma that is a cause of bondage for the jivas. The question is asked as to why different jivas are in different stations of life, i.e. some are suffering and others are enjoying, etc, and does this not make God partial and cruel. Vyasa's rebutal is that these are due to their different karmas, and thus God is not partial nor curel. Then the objection is examined that if jivas have different different karmas, then they must have started out with different karmas, therefore God is partial and cruel for assigning jivas to different karmas/different stations of life from the very beginning. But Vyasa's rebuttal is that no, God is not partial and cruel, because the karmas of the jivas are beginningless. These are the same karmas that cause their bondage in the material world.

 

There is simply no way you can look at those sutras and honestly claim that "brahma karma" is included in the term karma in that context. Of course, if you aren't against distorting the sutras to support your point of view, that is another matter.

 

 

I don't have a problem with the idea that the karma of every conditioned jiva is eternal,

 

Not eternal. Beginningless. If a living entity's karma is eternal then his bondage is eternal.

 

The idea that karma can refer also to spiritual activity is a distortion that is not consistent with the way in which the term is actually used in scripture.

 

 

but I don't think the statements in the shastra are really specific enough to say that the everyone's karma is eternal.

The term "karma" has more than one use.

 

I also don't have a problem with the idea that jivas are eternally becoming disintegrated with brahman and becoming conditioned souls.

 

We do know from shastra that any living entity in the brahmajyoti can fall down due to lack of sufficient devotional service.

 

Shastra also says that some jivas get liberated into the brahmajyoti and fall down again.

 

So, the shastric statement as far as I can see doesn't specifically say that the karma of every individual soul is eternal.

 

Besides, that, karma is burned-up as the reactions take effect.

 

So, once one has suffered the reaction to some karma then that karma is expired though some new karma can be generated.

 

So, the statement "karma is anadi" does not convince me that it means that every living entity involved in karma has always been so for absolute eternity.

 

Jaya and Vijaya fell down from the plane of no karma to get involved in karma.

So, their karma had a beginning when they stopped the four Kumaras from entering the Vaikuntha gate.

 

You are simply talking through your hat with no clue as to what you are saying. The anadi-karma statement is very clear and specific. The story of Jaya and Vijaya involved the Lord's sanction and does not rebut the anadi-karma statement which refers to pretty much everyone else.

[Narasingh]

There is a recurring accusation that Bhagavan would have to be cruel because of the nature of the Jiva. Is Bhagavan cruel to make hydrogen explosive and not helium? When one understands the neutral position we have, i.e. the ability to endeavor for the fulfillment of our desires, the ability to have desires, the inherent nature for fulfillment by acquisition of sat, cid, and ananda, the greatness of what we are simply for what we are (an element of Bhagavana's Self) there can be no possibility of placing the blame on Bhagavana. In Bhagavan there exists the harmonizing of all things; opposites and neutrals. We happen to be an aspect of that harmonizing, whether it be good or bad for us remains to be seen by our attempts.

[Sarva gattah]

SRILA PRABHUPADA - "This material creation is the spirit soul's dream, all existence in this world is the dream of Mahā-Viṣṇu" .4.29.83.

[Sonic Yogi]

 

There is a recurring accusation that Bhagavan would have to be cruel because of the nature of the Jiva.

But, if Bhagavan was a really generous God he could create a place where souls who were envious of him could be imitation Gods enjoying forever.

But, no he created a miserable material world for all the rebellious souls who won't be good little slaves of his.

(devil's advocate)

 

Or is it that jivas are just so tiny and limited that they have to start as a one-celled organism and evolve through millions of forms of life before Bhagavan gives the jiva a body with higher consciousness?

[Narasingh]

 

But, if Bhagavan was a really generous God he could create a place where souls who were envious of him could be imitation Gods enjoying forever.

But, no he created a miserable material world for all the rebellious souls who won't be good little slaves of his.

(devil's advocate)

That would merging with the Brahman by harnessing the philosophy and sadhana of the Advaitins.

Bhagavan is generous because, not only does is there a gift of a portion of manifestation for the Jiva to act out their desires for as long as they like:kick:, but Bhagavan also bestows a clause where the Jiva can leave their own elemental nature and be gifted with the nature similar with Bhagavan's personal nature, that being fulfilled in sat, cid, and ananda.

[Sonic Yogi]

 

SRILA PRABHUPADA - "This material creation is the spirit soul's dream, all existence in this world is the dream of Mahā-Viṣṇu" .4.29.83.

 

SB 4.29.82

 

In His impersonal feature, He is the rays of His transcendental body. When a living entity attains spiritual perfection, he also attains the same type of body, known as sac-cid-ānanda-vigraha.

 

It says the jiva ATTAINS a spiritual body.

If he already had one he wouldn't need to ATTAIN a spiritual body.

If he already had one there is no meaning to "he also ATTAINS.

[Sonic Yogi]

 

Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta Madhya 24.134

 

bhakti-bale 'prāpta-svarūpa' divya-deha pāya

 

kṛṣṇa-guṇākṛṣṭa hañā bhaje kṛṣṇa-pā'ya

 

SYNONYMS

 

bhakti-bale — by the strength of devotional service; prāpta-svarūpa — attaining his original status; divya-deha — a transcendental body; pāya — one gets; kṛṣṇa-guṇa-ākṛṣṭa — attracted by the transcendental qualities of Kṛṣṇa; hañā — being; bhaje — takes to devotional service; kṛṣṇa-pā'ya — at Kṛṣṇa's lotus feet.

 

TRANSLATION

 

"One who has attained his constitutional position by the strength of devotional service attains a transcendental body even in this lifetime. Being attracted by Lord Kṛṣṇa's transcendental qualities, he fully engages in service at His lotus feet.

 

Here again, we understand that the spiritual body is ATTAINED.

If the soul already had a spiritual body he would not need to ATTAIN a spiritual body.

[Sonic Yogi]

BG intro.-

 

 

one who leaves this body thinking of the Supreme Personality of Godhead at once attains a sac-cid-ananda body, as is promised in the fifth verse of the Eight Chapter where Lord Krsna says, "He attains My nature."

 

Again the devotee ATTAINS a spiritual body at the time of death if he remembers Krishna.

[Sonic Yogi]

BG intro.-

 

 

This life is a preparation for the next life. If we can prepare, therefore, in this life to get promotion to the kingdom of God, then surely, after quitting this material body, we will attain a spiritual body just like the Lord's.

 

AFTER quitting this material body the devotee ATTAINS a spiritual body.

AFTER quitting the material body!

[theist]

 

Here again, we understand that the spiritual body is ATTAINED.

If the soul already had a spiritual body he would not need to ATTAIN a spiritual body.

 

 

That is your interpretation and you are welcome to it however taking one word out of a verse and constructing a doctrine around it is not the way to understand it.

[Sonic Yogi]

 

Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta Madhya 8.229

 

siddha-dehe cinti' kare tāhāńñi sevana

 

sakhī-bhāve pāya rādhā-kṛṣṇera caraṇa

 

SYNONYMS

 

siddha-dehe — in the perfected stage; cinti' — by remembering; kare — does; tāhāńñi — in the spiritual world; sevana — service; sakhī-bhāve — in mood of the gopīs; pāya — gets; rādhā-kṛṣṇera — of Rādhā and Kṛṣṇa; caraṇa — the lotus feet.

 

TRANSLATION

 

"After thinking of Rādhā and Kṛṣṇa and Their pastimes for a long time and after getting completely free from material contamination, one is transferred to the spiritual world. There the devotee attains an opportunity to serve Rādhā and Kṛṣṇa as one of the gopīs.

 

PURPORT

 

Śrīla Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī Ṭhākura comments that the word siddha-deha, "perfected spiritual body," refers to a body beyond the material gross body composed of five elements and the subtle astral body composed of mind, intelligence and false ego. In other words, one attains a completely spiritual body fit to render service to the transcendental couple Rādhā and Kṛṣṇa: sarvopādhi-vinirmuktaḿ tat-paratvena nirmalam [Cc. Madhya 19.170].

 

When one is situated in his spiritual body, which is beyond this gross and subtle material body, he is fit to serve Rādhā and Kṛṣṇa. That body is called siddha-deha. The living entity attains a particular type of gross body in accordance with his past activities and mental condition. In this life the mental condition changes in different ways, and the same living entity gets another body in the next life according to his desires. The mind, intelligence and false ego are always engaged in an attempt to dominate material nature. According to that subtle astral body, one attains a gross body to enjoy the objects of one's desires. According to the activities of the present body, one prepares another subtle body. And according to the subtle body, one attains another gross body. This is the process of material existence. However, when one is spiritually situated and does not desire a gross or subtle body, he attains his original spiritual body.

 

Here again we read at least twice that the devotee ATTAINS a spiritual body.

The last one says "attains his original spiritual body".

 

What does "original" mean?

It means the first one.

 

Like "the first car I originally owned was a 65 Chevy Impala SS."

[Beggar]

I really don't understand why so may of the posters here insist on being so doctrinaire on this subject. From one angle of vision the spiritual body must be obtained from another angle of vision it is something that already exists (from the viewpoint of eternity). It is acintya, or inconceivable how apparently opposite truths can simultaneously be true. Debating will not give anyone the real answer and that will come by bhakti, alone. Then when the real truth will come in our hearts we will find that it is really not really knowledge or jnana but bhakti. When bhakti comes into our hearts we will see what is what but that will not be our real focus - not the desire to know Krsna, but rather the desire to please Krsna.

[Sonic Yogi]

CC madhya 8.139.purport

 

 

Śrīla Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura considers the brahma-bhūta stage in two divisions — svarūpa-gata and vastu-gata. One who has understood Kṛṣṇa in truth but is still maintaining some material connection is known to be situated in his svarūpa, his original consciousness. When that original consciousness is completely spiritual, it is called Kṛṣṇa consciousness. One who lives in such consciousness is actually living in Vṛndāvana. He may live anywhere; material location doesn't matter. When by the grace of Kṛṣṇa one thus advances, he becomes completely uncontaminated by the material body and mind and at that time factually lives in Vṛndāvana. That stage is called vastu-gata.

 

One should execute his spiritual activities in the svarūpa-gata stage of consciousness. He should also chant the cin-mayī Gāyatrī, the spiritual mantras oḿ namo bhagavate vāsudevāya, klīḿ kṛṣṇāya govindāya gopījana-vallabhāya svāhā, and klīḿ kāma-devāya vidmahe puṣpa-bāṇāya dhīmahi tan no 'nańgaḥ pracodayāt. These are the Kāma-gāyatrī or kāma-bīja mantras. One should be initiated by a bona fide spiritual master and worship Kṛṣṇa with these transcendental mantras.

[theist]

 

I really don't understand why so may of the posters here insist on being so doctrinaire on this subject. From one angle of vision the spiritual body must be obtained from another angle of vision it is something that already exists (from the viewpoint of eternity). It is acintya, or inconceivable how apparently opposite truths can simultaneously be true. Debating will not give anyone the real answer and that will come by bhakti, alone. Then when the real truth will come in our hearts we will find that it is really not really knowledge or jnana but bhakti. When bhakti comes into our hearts we will see what is what but that will not be our real focus - not the desire to know Krsna, but rather the desire to please Krsna.

 

 

This is right. From our current angle of vision conditioned by time we see spiritual realization as something to attain. From the realized position it has never been lost. It's not hard to take in the concept really on an intellectual level . That should make us patient enough to wait on the realization for confirmation.

 

 

Just like the origin debate.

 

 

When the realized souls try to explain eternal things to us they must use lanuage we understand which are based on temporary concepts. We should not get hung up on the words.

 

 

Like Lao Tzu's finger for the moon example.

[Narasingh]

What a beautiful purport!!!

[theist]

.

[Sonic Yogi]

In fact we have to take birth in Krishna lila.

We don't just pop-up in Goloka like we have been there eternally.

Entering eternity involves a sequence of events.

 

Before attaining Goloka, the devotee takes birth in a material universe where the pastimes of Krishna are being manifested.

 

Then, the relationship and service to Krishna is developed through a natural sequence as if one is taking birth into Krishna-lila.

 

We don't already have a body in Goloka that we can go home to after leaving this body.

First we must take birth in the lila as it is being manifested here in the material world.

 

The entry into eternal life starts by taking birth in Krishna-lila.

 

Madhya 20.397 purport

 

 

After leaving the material body, the perfect devotee takes birth from the womb of a gopī on a planet where Kṛṣṇa's pastimes are going on. This may be in this universe or another universe. This statement is found in the Ujjvala-nīlamaṇi, which is commented upon by Viśvanātha Cakravartī Ṭhākura. When a devotee becomes perfect, he is transferred to the universe where Kṛṣṇa's pastimes are taking place. Kṛṣṇa's eternal associates go wherever Kṛṣṇa manifests His pastimes. As stated before, first the father and mother of Kṛṣṇa appear, then the other associates. Quitting his material body, the perfect devotee also goes to associate with Kṛṣṇa and His other associates.

This is how we attain our spiritual body if in fact we are going to enter Krishna lila.

 

It's not magic or voodoo.

We take birth in Gokula Vrindavan.

[theist]

In this case the word attain.

 

[Narasingh]

LOL. What??? An ambiguous cartoon to do away with language itself. In much the same way as Sonic Yogi is using the word "attain" Theist is using the words, "long, long before". Let us not argue for argument's sake. Good luck to us all.

[Sonic Yogi]

Krishna Book ch. 28

 

 

The inhabitants of Vrndavana are all pure devotees. Their destination after quitting the body is Krsnaloka. They even surpass the Vaikunthalokas. The fact is, those who are always engaged in Krsna consciousness and mature, pure devotional service are given the chance, after death, to gain Krsna's association in the universes within the material world. Krsna's pastimes are continually going on, either in this universe or in another universe. Just as the sun globe is passing through many places across this earthly planet, so Krsna-lila, or the transcendental advent and pastimes of Krsna, are also going on continually, either in this or another universe. The mature devotees, who have completely executed Krsna consciousness, are immediately transferred to the universe where Krsna is appearing. In that universe the devotees get their first opportunity to associate with Krsna personally and directly. The training goes on, as we see in the Vrndavana lila of Krsna within this planet.

So, first taking birth in Krishna-lila on a planet in some material universe, then going back to Krishnaloka from there.

 

There is no straight shot to Goloka from the mundane plane.

You have to take birth in Vrindavan and then after Krishna's pastimes are concluded the destination is Goloka.

[theist]

 

LOL. What??? An ambiguous cartoon to do away with language itself. In much the same way as Sonic Yogi is using the word "attain" Theist is using the words, "long, long before". Let us not argue for argument's sake. Good luck to us all.

 

 

To bad you can't even understand such a simplistic cartoon. Do you see anywhere in the cartoon the suggestion that one "do away with the finger itself".

 

 

The same message has been given by Bhaktivinode Thakur.