The jiva is the tatastha sakti

[Sarva gattah]

The jiva is the tatastha sakti of the Lord, also called the jiva sakti or marginal potency, the jiva doesn’t go there, it is not a place you can go to, it is what he is.

Sri Caitanya Caritamrta Madhya 20.108-109

jivera ’svarupa’ haya — krsnera ‘nitya-dasa’

krsnera ‘tatastha-sakti’ ‘bhedabheda-prakasa’

suryamsa-kirana, yaiche agni-jvala-caya

svabhavika krsnera tina-prakara ’sakti’ haya

SYNONYMS

jivera — of the living entity; svarupa — the constitutional position; haya — is; krsnera — of Lord Krsna; nitya-dasa — eternal servant; krsnera — of Lord Krsna; tatastha — marginal; sakti — potency; bheda-abheda — one and different; prakasa — manifestation; surya-amsa — part and parcel of the sun; kirana — a ray of sunshine; yaiche — as; agni-jvala-caya — molecular particle of fire; svabhavika — naturally; krsnera — of Lord Krsna; tina-prakara — three varieties; sakti — energies; haya — there are.

TRANSLATION

It is the living entity’s constitutional position to be an eternal servant of Krsna because he is the marginal energy of Krsna and a manifestation simultaneously one with and different from the Lord, like a molecular particle of sunshine or fire. Krsna has three varieties of energy.

PURPORT

Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura explains these verses as follows: Sri Sanatana Gosvami asked Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, “Who am I?” In answer, the Lord replied, “You are a pure living entity. You are neither the gross material body nor the subtle body composed of mind and intelligence. Actually you are a spirit soul, eternally part and parcel of the Supreme Soul, Krsna. Therefore you are His eternal servant. You belong to Krsna’s marginal potency. There are two worlds — the spiritual world and the material world — and you are situated between the material and spiritual potencies. You have a relationship with both the material and the spiritual world; therefore you are called the marginal potency. You are related with Krsna as one and simultaneously different. Because you are spirit soul, you are one in quality with the Supreme Personality of Godhead, but because you are a very minute particle of spirit soul, you are different from the Supreme Soul. Therefore your position is simultaneously one with and different from the Supreme Soul. The examples given are those of the sun itself and the small particles of sunshine and of a blazing fire and the small particles of fire.” Another explanation of these verses can be found in Adi-lila, Chapter Two, verse 96.

In his Paramatma Sandarbha Jiva Goswami writes:

evam ekasya purusasya nanatvam upapadya tasya punar amsa vivriyante. atra dvi-vidha amsah svamsa vibhinnamsac ca. vibhinnamsas tatastha-cakty-atmaka jiva iti vaksyate. svamsas tu guna-lila dy-avatara-bhedena vividhah. tatra lila dy-avatarah prasagga-saggatya sri-krsna-sandarbhe vaksyante.

evam thus; ekasya - of one; purusasya - purusa-avatar; nanatvam - variety; upapadya - is explained; tasya - of Him; punar - again; amsa - parts; vivriyante are explained; atra - here; dvi-vidha - two kinds; amsah - parts; svamsa - own parts; vibhinnamsac - separated parts; ca. - also; vibhinnamsas separated parts; tatastha-cakty- atmaka - marginal potency; jiva - individual souls; iti - thus; vaksyate. - will be explained; svamsas own parts; tu - but; guna- lila dy-avatara-bhedena - with differences oif guna and lila avataras; vividhah. - various; tatra - there; lila dy- avatarah beginning with lila avataras; prasagga-saggatya - by contact; sri-krsna-sandarbhe - in Sri Krsna-sandarbha; vaksyante. - will be explained; gunavatara guna avataras; yatha as.

In this way it has been explained that although the purusa- avatara is a single person, He nevertheless expands in many different forms. The Supreme Personality of Godhead has two kinds of expansions: 1. svamsa (personal expansions), and 2. vibhinnamsa (separated expansions). The Lord’s separated expansions are the individual spirit souls, who are all the Lord’s marginal potency (tatastha-sakti). The Lord’s personal expansions are His many incarnations, such as His guna-avatars and lila-avataras. The Lord’s lila-avataras and other incarnations will be described later in the Sri Krsna-sandarbha.

tad evam ananta eva jivakhyas tatasthah caktayah. tatra tasam varga-dvayam. eko vargo ‘nadita eva bhagavad-unmukhah. anyas tv anadita eva bhagavat-paragmukhah. svabhavatas tadiya- jnana-bhavat tadiya-jnanabhavac ca.

tat - that; evam - thus; ananta - limitless; eva - inded; jivakhyah - called individual souls; tatasthah - marginal; caktayah. - potencies; tatra - there; tasam - of them; varga-dvayam. - two groups; ekah - one; vargah - group; anadita - from time immemorial; eva - indeed; bhagavad-unmukhah. - favorable to the Supreme Personality of Godhead; anyah - others; tv - but; anadita - from time imemmorial; eva - indeed; bhagavat-paragmukhah. - averse to the Supreme Personality of Godhead; svabhavatah - by nature; tadiya - of Him; jana - knowledge; bhavat - because of the nature; tadiya - of Him; jnana - the knowledge; abhavat - because of the absence; ca - also.

Thus the Lord’s marginal [tatasthah] potencies, who are called the individual spirit souls are limitless in number. Still, they may be divided into two groups: 1. the souls who, from time immemorial, are favorable to the Supreme Lord, and 2. the rebellious souls who, from time immemorial, are averse to the Supreme Lord. This is because one group is aware of the Lord’s glories and the other group is not aware of them.

tatra prathamo ‘ntaragga-sakti-vilasanugrhito nitya- bhagavat-parikara-rupo garudadikah. yathoktam padmottara-khande tri-pad-vibhuter lokas tu ity adau bhagavat-sandarbhodahrte. asya ca tatasthatvam jivatva-prasiddher isvaratva-kotav apravecat.

tatra - there; prathamah - first; antaragga-sakti - internal potency; vilasa - pastimes; anugrhitah - attained the mercy; nitya - eternal; bhagavat - of the Supreme Personality of Godhead; parikara-rupah - the form of associates; garudadikah. - beginning with Garuda; yatha - as; uktam - said; padmottara-khande - in thje Padma Purana, Uttara-khanda; tri-pad-vibhuteh - of three fourths of the Lord’s potencies; lokah - the world; tu - indeed; iti - thus; adau - beginning; bhagavat-sandarbhodahrte - dessribed in the Bhagavat-sandarbha; asya - of this; ca - also; tatasthatvam - the state of ebing the marginal potency; jivatva-prasiddheh - of the proof of being the individual spirit souls; isvaratva - of the status of the Supreme Personality of Godhead; kotau - on the edge; apravecat - because of not entering.

The first group consists of Garuda and the other eternal associates of the Lord, These devotees take shelter of the Lord’s internal potency and enjoy pastimes with Him. They reside in the spiritual world, which will be described in the Bhagavat- sandarbha (anuccheda 78) where the following words of Padma Purana, Uttara-khanda are quoted:

“Countless blissful spiritual planets are in the spiritual sky, which is three fourths of the entire creation.”

Thus, although the nature of the individual souls is on the borderline of the nature of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, the individual souls do not enter that nature. Thus they remain different from the Lord.

tad evam paramatmanas tatasthakhya saktir vivrta. antaraggakhya tu purvavad eva jYeya. atha bahiraggakhya vivriyate

tat - that; evam - thus; paramatmanah - of the Supreme Personality of Godhead; tatasthakhya - called the marginal potency; saktih - potency; vivrta. - revealed; antaraggakhya - called the internal potency; tu - indeed; purvavat - as before; eva - indeed; jYeya - should be known; atha - now; bahiraggakhya - called the external potency; vivriyate - is revealed.

In this way we have described the Lord’s marginal potency. we have already described the Lord’s internal potency.

This is from Srila Prabhupada’s “Teachings of Lord Caitanya”

The supreme knowledge of Krsna is exhibited in three different energies - internal, marginal and external. By virtue of His internal energy, He exists in Himself with His spiritual paraphernalia; by means of His marginal energy (tatastha sakti), He exhibits Himself as the living entities, and by means of His external energy He exhibits Himself as material energy. Behind each and every energetic exhibition there is the background of eternity, pleasure, potency and full cognizance.

This is from “Sri Caitanya’s Teachings” by Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura

Vishnu has three energies, one of them is meant for manifestation of His eternal Abode, another potency is for creating all human souls who are emanation from His Tatastha-sakti found between the temporal and eternal worlds. By this potency He creates human souls. The human souls has two different predilections. If he desires to serve God-head he is allowed into the eternal Region. If he desires to lord it over this world he comes down for enjoying in different capacities the products of the Deluding potency.

This position, which is like a geometrical line, is designated tatastha-sakti, the fountain-head of all human souls. Tatastha-sakti is located between the two potencies of Vishnu one of which maintains this transforming world and the other is the source of the manifestation of the eternal world that does not change like this world. These potencies belong to the Personality of God-head Vishnu

Tathastha does not refer to a place, it does not possess a locatice meaning in the sense of being in a particular spot. Tatastha has an ontological meaning. The jiva is a sakti of the Lord, it exists as neither Cit Sakti nor as Maya Sakti, we exist in between these two categories of saktis, therefore we are called Tatastha. The place where water, as in a river an ocean or lake, where it meets the land, that is called tata. The Cit Sakti is represented by the water and the Maya Sakti us represented by the land. Since we are neither the Maya Sakti nor the Cit Sakti, neither the water or the land, we are called tatastha, or the inbetween the water and the land. The tide can cause us to be submerged in water or the tide can retreat and we can become left on the land. The jiva can be influenced and come under the dominion of the Cit Sakti or of the Maya Sakti. Either was the constitutional position of the jiva is tatastha sakti, the marginal potency, on the margin or border between 2 other potencies.

Sri Caitanya Caritamrta Madhya 20.108-109

jivera ’svarupa’ haya — krsnera ‘nitya-dasa’

krsnera ‘tatastha-sakti’ ‘bhedabheda-prakasa’

suryamsa-kirana, yaiche agni-jvala-caya

svabhavika krsnera tina-prakara ’sakti’ haya

SYNONYMS

jivera — of the living entity; svarupa — the constitutional position; haya — is; krsnera — of Lord Krsna; nitya-dasa — eternal servant; krsnera — of Lord Krsna; tatastha — marginal; sakti — potency; bheda-abheda — one and different; prakasa — manifestation; surya-amsa — part and parcel of the sun; kirana — a ray of sunshine; yaiche — as; agni-jvala-caya — molecular particle of fire; svabhavika — naturally; krsnera — of Lord Krsna; tina-prakara — three varieties; sakti — energies; haya — there are.

TRANSLATION

It is the living entity’s constitutional position to be an eternal servant of Krsna because he is the marginal energy of Krsna and a manifestation simultaneously one with and different from the Lord, like a molecular particle of sunshine or fire. Krsna has three varieties of energy.

[Yofu]

Oh dear! Here we go again. Just watch for the Fall-vadis and its-a-dream-vadis postings and the counter arguments... :sleep: :sleep:

[Sarva gattah]

The foremost meaning of the word ‘marginal’ is the ability for one to use their free will and choose to remain either Krishna Conscious as their endless Svarupa body in Vaikuntha, or material conscious in counterfeit bodily vessels in the material creation or mahat-tattva.”

Marginal is the English transliteration of the word “tatastha

[Beggar]

Then one individual jiva = a tatastha sakti. All jivas = the tatastha sakti.

But what is "all jivas"? Since all the Lord's, Bhagavan's energies are infinite, and ever expanding, the infinite jiva's number continue to grow. So consequently it can be said that the tatastha shakti of the Lord is infinite and ever expanding. The first question would be, "then where does it grow from?" One could answer, "the Lord, but in Gaudiya Vaisnavism we accept that Bhagavan has multifarious energies, na tasya karyam karanam ca vidyate na tat samas cabhyadhikas ca drsyate parasya saktir vividhaiva sruyate svabhaviki jnana-bala-kriya ca. So then the question is from what energy do the individual jiva's expand or grow from? The next question would be, "how can the number of infinite jivas expand in in fact they are eternal, and that this seems contradictory?" In fact this contradiction is the basis for this so-called debate! But actually both sides of the argument can be defeated by linear logical thinking. Tarko pratishanat. Therefore the subject itself is in the realm of acintya, inconceivable. It is inconceivable to the material mind.

 

What Sarva gattah, Garuagopal is doing is to take one side of the inconceivable duality, where it is explained by his guru, Srila Prabhupada, and postulate that it is not inconceivable and that it is a rational fact.

Prabhupada, himself, would say, "it's a fact, you must accept." But this strategy was preaching, pravacan, not siddhanta, the devotional conclusion. Every preaching strategy has its risk. Here the risk is that certain less intelligent persons will take the idea that Krsna Consciousness is rational, and therefore not acintya, and then become what we call in the West, doctrinaire. What ever contradictions that can come in logical thought or even within the books or statements of their own guru, will be ignored. Doubters will be considered disloyal, blasphemers and paranoia will abound. Yet this doesn't describe Srila Prabhupada. It was in such an atmosphere that the Zonal Acarya System was imposed. Do you really think that it is a coincidence that the same person who is carrying on this doctrinaire offensive, is also carrying on a thread glorifying the last "real" standing Zonal [acarya]? Srila Prabhupada states in the Sri Isopanisad that the practioners of Krsna Consciousness should become philosophers. He never says that they should become doctrinaire fanatics.

[Beggar]

Here's an example of the kind of purport, Sarva gattah will simply ignore:

 

Srimad-Bhagavatam 3.7.9, purport:

 

 

...This covering up of pure consciousness and eternal bliss is due to avidyā-karmā-saḿjñā, the energy which acts on the infinitesimal living entities who misuse their minute independence. According to Viṣṇu Purāṇa, Bhagavad-Gītā and all other Vedic literatures, the living entities are generated from the taṭasthā energy of the Lord , and thus they are always the energy of the Lord and are not the energetic. The living entities are like the sun's rays. Although, as explained above, there is no qualitative difference between the sun and its rays, the sun's rays are sometimes overpowered by another energy of the sun, namely by clouds or by snowfall. Similarly, although the living entities are qualitatively one with the superior energy of the Lord, they have the tendency to be overpowered by the inferior, material energy. In the Vedic hymns it is said that the living entities are like the sparks of a fire. The sparks of fire also are fire, but the burning potency of the sparks is different from that of the original fire. When the sparks fly out of touch with the original fire, they come under the influence of a nonfiery atmosphere; thus they maintain the potency to be again one with the fire as sparks, but not as the original fire. The sparks can everlastingly remain within the original fire as its parts and parcels, but the moment the sparks become separated from the original fire, their misfortunes and miseries begin.

[Sarva gattah]

It means from the marginal position that all jivas ARE. Also no jivas are created, no volley of jivas are growing out of a plain sheet of consciousness and expanding the creation, because they are eternal. Tatastha is NOT a place in the creation, it is simply another name for marginal living entity or jiva tattva

 

taṭasthā — the marginal potency; CC Madhya 6.160

taṭastha-lakṣaṇa — marginal characteristics; CC Madhya 18.126

taṭasthā — marginal; CC Madhya 20.108-109

taṭastha-lakṣaṇa — the marginal characteristics; CC Madhya 20.356

taṭastha-lakṣaṇa — the marginal symptoms; CC Madhya 20.357

taṭastha-lakṣaṇa — marginal characteristics; CC Madhya 20.362

taṭastha-lakṣaṇe — marginal symptoms; CC Madhya 22.106

taṭastha-lakṣaṇa — the marginal symptom; CC Madhya 22.151

taṭastha — marginal; CC Madhya 23.6

[Beggar]

 

It means from the marginal position that all jivas ARE. Also no jivas are created, no volley of jivas are growing out of a plain sheet of consciousness and expanding the creation, because they are eternal. Tatastha is NOT a place in the creation, it is simply another name for marginal living entity or jiva tattva

 

 

No discussion, no inquisitiveness, no give and take, no communication.

A deeply perverted conception of Krsna bhakti, more akin to a totalitarian ideology like the Church in the Middle Ages, National Socialism or Marxist-Leninism.

[Sarva gattah]

 

No discussion, no inquisitiveness, no give and take, no communication.

A deeply perverted conception of Krsna bhakti, more akin to a totalitarian ideology like the Church in the Middle Ages, National Socialism or Marxist-Leninism.

 

tatastha = marginal = jiva tattva, it is what it is

[Beggar]

 

tatastha = marginal = jiva tattva, it is what it is

 

Then one individual jiva = a tatastha sakti. All jivas = the tatastha sakti

 

Srimad-Bhagavatam 3.7.9, purport:

According to Viṣṇu Purāṇa, Bhagavad-Gītā and all other Vedic literatures, the living entities are generated from the taṭasthā energy of the Lord...

Just what part of this quote do you not understand?

[Sarva gattah]

 

Srimad-Bhagavatam 3.7.9, purport:

 

Just what part of this quote do you not understand?

 

marginal (tatastha sakti)

[Beggar]

Sarva gattah is claiming that the jiva are tatastha sakti and "Tatastha is NOT a place in the creation, it is simply another name for marginal living entity or jiva tattva." IOW he says that it is incorrect that any other definition of tatastha be used, especially if it is used to be a place or point of origin. But Srila Prabhupada is clearly using the word, tatastha, in the way to which Sarva objects in this purport which I already quoted, Srimad-Bhagavatam 3.7.9:

 

According to Viṣṇu Purāṇa, Bhagavad-Gītā and all other Vedic literatures, the living entities are generated from the taṭasthā energy of the Lord...

And then again in this lecture:

HDG A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

741219SB.BOM Lectures:

... nature, and para-prakrti is the spiritual nature. So therefore jiva-sakti is called tatastha. Tatastha. Antaranga, bahiranga, tatastha. Parasya saktir vividhaiva sruyate, the Absolute Truth has got multi-potencies. They have been summarized ... then the material nature, and another nature, prakrti--we are also prakrti--between the two, tatastha. Just like the beach is between the land and water. Beach is sometimes covered with ... material nature. Therefore our position is in between the spiritual nature and the material nature, tatastha. Tatastha means in between.

It has already been told that Srila Narayana Maharaja has explained the this place is in a sense only a concept, since the jivas actually have no origin, being eternal. Yet still, "Tatastha means in between", as well as marginal and every sanskrit word has many meanings.

[theist]

I have always taken it that tatashta-shakti refers to a specific potency of the Lord to generate marginal living beings. Not a place but a specific potentcy. It also refers to what is produced from His potency i.e. mthe marginal living entities.

 

And no I don't want to argue about it. Just my viewpoint.

[Sonic Yogi]

Lord Siva impregnates Durga with us the little jivas.

We don't fall here. We are impregnated into matter by Lord Siva.

 

Siva is our daddy.

 

CC Madhya 20.273 purport:

 

 

The word svāńga-viśeṣābhāsa-rūpe, indicating the form by which the Lord begets living entities in the material world, is explained herein. He is Lord Śiva. In the Brahma-saḿhitā it is stated that Lord Śiva, who is another form of Mahā-Viṣṇu, is like yogurt. Yogurt is nothing but milk, yet it is not milk. Similarly, Lord Śiva is considered the father of this universe, and material nature is considered the mother. The father and mother are known as Lord Śiva and goddess Durgā. Together, Lord Śiva's genitals and the vagina of goddess Durgā are worshiped as the śiva-lińga. This is the origin of the material creation. Thus Lord Śiva's position is between that of the living entity and that of the Supreme Lord. In other words, Lord Śiva is neither the Supreme Personality of Godhead nor a living entity. He is the form through which the Supreme Lord works to beget living entities within this material world. As yogurt is prepared when milk is mixed with a culture, the form of Lord Śiva expands when the Supreme Personality of Godhead is in touch with material nature. The impregnation of material nature by the father, Lord Śiva, is wonderful because at one time innumerable living entities are conceived. Bhāgo jīvaḥ sa vijñeyaḥ sa cānantyāya kalpate (Śvetāśvatara Upaniṣad 5.9). These living entities are very, very small:

 

keśāgra-śata-bhāgasya śatāḿśa-sadṛśātmakaḥ

 

jīvaḥ sūkṣma-svarūpo 'yaḿ sańkhyātīto hi cit-kaṇaḥ

 

[Cc. Madya 19.140]

 

"If we divide the tip of a hair into a hundred parts and then take one of these parts and divide it again into a hundred parts, that very fine division is the size of but one of the numberless living entities. They are all cit-kaṇa, particles of spirit, not matter."

[Beggar]

 

I have always taken it that tatashta-shakti refers to a specific potency of the Lord to generate marginal living beings. Not a place but a specific potentcy. It also refers to what is produced from His potency i.e. mthe marginal living entities.

 

And no I don't want to argue about it. Just my viewpoint.

 

Maybe the idea of 'place' gives the wrong impression. After all everything exists within consciousness. The 'place' or identified satki 'where' the generation occurs is the tatastha sakti. The living entities are also referred to as tatastha sakti. 'Generation occurs' is a rather crude attempt at using language to explain the concept, especially since the jivas are eternal. Its all words, analogies and descriptions. What is frustrating me is Sarva's fanatical stand that tatastha only refers to the individual jiva being marginal. Although he has been shown on numerous occasions, purports that directly contradict his notion, he refuses even to acknowledge that they exist.

[theist]

 

Maybe the idea of 'place' gives the wrong impression.

 

It surely does and now this idea is widespread. A projection of our conditioning to the limiting idea of space.

[Beggar]

 

We don't fall here.

'Fall' is only a word used to convey a thought. Such is true of all words. Sonic seeks to use words to shock, almost as a polar opposite to Sarva's use of words as a repetitive blitzkrieg. The truth is always in the middle, which is just as abstract as the notion of tatastha. We all yearn for absolute harmony not total discord.

[Sonic Yogi]

A Vedabase search produces these as the only occasions where "tatastha" appears in the books of Srila Prabhupada.

 

 

taṭasthā — the marginal potency; CC Madhya 6.160

taṭastha-lakṣaṇa — marginal characteristics; CC Madhya 18.126

taṭasthā — marginal; CC Madhya 20.108-109

taṭastha-lakṣaṇa — the marginal characteristics; CC Madhya 20.356

taṭastha-lakṣaṇa — the marginal symptoms; CC Madhya 20.357

taṭastha-lakṣaṇa — marginal characteristics; CC Madhya 20.362

taṭastha-lakṣaṇe — marginal symptoms; CC Madhya 22.106

taṭastha-lakṣaṇa — the marginal symptom; CC Madhya 22.151

taṭastha — marginal; CC Madhya 23.6

[Sonic Yogi]

 

'Fall' is only a word used to convey a thought. Such is true of all words. Sonic seeks to use words to shock, almost as a polar opposite to Sarva's use of words as a repetitive blitzkrieg. The truth is always in the middle, which is just as abstract as the notion of tatastha. We all yearn for absolute harmony not total discord.

The shastra says quite definitively that the living entities are impregnated into prakriti.

To me that does not convey any concept of any being falling down but of living beings being conceived as are the words of Srila Prabhupada "living entities are conceived" by Lord Siva in the womb of Durga.

 

I don't consider that living entities fall down to the material energy, but they fall down after they get here.

[Beggar]

 

It surely does and now this idea is widespread. A projection of our conditioning to the limiting idea of space.

Srila Narayana M. said on a walk, that, "actually tatastha is imaginary, really there is only two energies, the superior and inferior and the jiva is superior". To me what he means by 'imaginary' is not a phantasmagoria but more like a word created to convey a concept from the viewpoint of time. From the angle of vision of eternity the jiva is eternal and therefore not 'generated'. The idea of 'generated' is to illustrate how everything and everyone comes from Krsna. IOW everthing and everyone are related to Krsna. Why not unite around this concept? Why squabble or become a fanatic over thoughts that were never intended to be used the way we use (misuse) them. This is why Prabhupada warned against becoming an "armchair philosopher."

[theist]

Nothing new though. Prabhupada taught the jiva is really of the internal energy. Matter does not possess free will. marginal energy does.

[Beggar]

 

The shastra says quite definitively that the living entities are impregnated into prakriti.

To me that does not convey any concept of any being falling down but of living beings being conceived as are the words of Srila Prabhupada "living entities are conceived" by Lord Siva in the womb of Durga.

Not all jivas are impregnated into matter. Some are in the brahmajyoti in a latent stage and most are serving Bhagavan in the Vaikuntha planets. Why?

Sometimes it is told by desire, sometimes misuse of minute free will and sometimes by chance. But one thing for sure is that the souls who are adverse to Krsna's service are the ones who are impregnated into prakrti.

This condition is called patita in sanskrit and translated into fallen in English. One name of Krsna is Patita Pavana, friend of the fallen. He is not known as 'friend of the impregnated into apara-prakrti.' Words are chosen to convey ideas, not so that we get hung up on words. Why become the anti-Sarva? IOW the opposite reflection. Two wrongs don't make a right.

[Sonic Yogi]

 

Not all jivas are impregnated into matter. Some are in the brahmajyoti in a latent stage and most are serving Bhagavan in the Vaikuntha planets. Why?

Sometimes it is told by desire, sometimes misuse of minute free will and sometimes by chance. But one thing for sure is that the souls who are adverse to Krsna's service are the ones who are impregnated into prakrti.

This condition is called patita in sanskrit and translated into fallen in English. One name of Krsna is Patita Pavana, friend of the fallen. He is not known as 'friend of the impregnated into apara-prakrti.' Words are chosen to convey ideas, not so that we get hung up on words. Why become the anti-Sarva? IOW the opposite reflection. Two wrongs don't make a right.

 

Like I said in my last post.

I don't believe living entities fall into the material world.

They are impregnated into prakriti by a power beyond them.

 

They fall down after they get here.

They don't fall down to get here.

Otherwise, as has been established there would be no meaning to the Vedic concept of karma being "anadi".

[Beggar]

 

Like I said in my last post.

I don't believe living entities fall into the material world.

They are impregnated into prakriti by a power beyond them.

 

They fall down after they get here.

They don't fall down to get here.

Otherwise, as has been established there would be no meaning to the Vedic concept of karma being "anadi".

Both ideas are correct, yet they are one and different. Just how so, is beyond our intellect to understand therefore these topics are acintya or inconceivable.

[Sonic Yogi]

As far as the "fall theory" advocated by Srila Prabhupada, I have learned not to take everything he says as literal fact because in fact I think such theories are metaphorical fables fabricated for the consumption of the passengers on board Kali yuga Airlines.

 

In the books of Srila Prabhupada "anadi" always means "beginningless" when it refers to the Lord, but it always means "since time immemorial" when it refers to the conditioned living entities.

 

Prabhupada apparentely felt he needed to slightly modify the siddhanta and soften some of the rhetoric of the Vedic shastra.

 

So, I don't take everything Prabhupada said literally.

 

There is evidence that he in fact used metaphor, fables and tales in his preaching to us lowly western people.

 

That's fine, but I think in time that approach has become somewhat of a burden on ISKCON as other Gaudiya sects come out and challenge some of the ISKCON myths.

[Beggar]

 

 

That's fine, but I think in time that approach has become somewhat of a burden on ISKCON as other Gaudiya sects come out and challenge some of the ISKCON myths.

 

Maybe Srila Prabhupada's books themselves, if deeply studied, challenge the "ISKCON myths." Look at Sarva's ideas, he almost exclusively quotes from letters and conversations, not the books.