The jiva is the tatastha sakti

[Sonic Yogi]

 

Maybe Srila Prabhupada's books themselves, if deeply studied, challenge the "ISKCON myths." Look at Sarva's ideas, he almost exclusively quotes from letters and conversations, not the books.

 

I read the books a lot and I find that both angles are presented in different places.

There is something for both parties in the books.

Either party can find some support for their theory.

 

I think Srila Prabhupada wanted something for all classes of men in the books.

 

He attempted to nurture both classes of believer.

 

That confuses some readers.

Some readers just see it all as a lot of crazy contradiction and they go elsewhere for siddhanta.

 

I just see it as Srila Prabhupada trying to foster the faith in everyone no matter which way of thinking they intuitively think about the issues.

 

It can be a little exasperating, but we have to try and see the good will behind everything Srila Prabhupada taught.

[Sonic Yogi]

 

Look at Sarva's ideas, he almost exclusively quotes from letters and conversations, not the books.

 

Srila Prabhupada never authorized the gathering together of all his personal letters to disciples into a central depository to be used as a resource for establishing the Gaudiya siddhanta.

 

Letters were many times fashioned according to the level of the disciple.

 

The letters should never have been gathered together into a book and distributed to the whole movement like shastra.

 

I don't think Srila Prabhupada would have approved of doing that.

 

Anytime we find a contradiction between the letters and the books, I think it would be only right to give preference to the books.

 

I stopped reading the letters years ago.

I don't even bother to read any of them anymore.

I think it can lead to some misunderstanding as we see evident with these internet discussions of siddhanta.

[Sonic Yogi]

I was a "fallvadi" for several years.

I of course was an ISKCON devotee for several years and partook of the myth.

My thinking underwent some changes as I studied more and also got some association with devotees outside ISKCON.

 

I am far from a finished professor.

I try to keep learning and growing.

 

I know the myth is an old ISKCON myth.

 

But, I don't believe it anymore.

[Beggar]

 

I was a "fallvadi" for several years.

I of course was an ISKCON devotee for several years and partook of the myth.

My thinking underwent some changes as I studied more and also got some association with devotees outside ISKCON.

 

I am far from a finished professor.

I try to keep learning and growing.

 

I know the myth is an old ISKCON myth.

 

But, I don't believe it anymore.

 

BTW does Sonic carry a veggie burger yet?

[Sarva gattah]

 

there is only two energies, the superior and inferior and the jiva is superior

 

And the superior is divided into two (not literally), Vishnu tattva and jiva tattva. So there are actually three energies - Vishnu tattva, jiva tattva and mahat-tattva (lifeless)

 

In between means inbetween the Vishnu tattva potencies and the maha-tattva potencies. It is not a place it is what the jiva tattva is and is also called tatastha sakti BECAUSE of being in-between

[shiva]

 

The jiva is the tatastha sakti of the Lord, also called the jiva sakti or marginal potency, the jiva doesn’t go there, it is not a place you can go to, it is what he is.

Sri Caitanya Caritamrta Madhya 20.108-109

jivera ’svarupa’ haya — krsnera ‘nitya-dasa’

krsnera ‘tatastha-sakti’ ‘bhedabheda-prakasa’

suryamsa-kirana, yaiche agni-jvala-caya

svabhavika krsnera tina-prakara ’sakti’ haya

SYNONYMS

jivera — of the living entity; svarupa — the constitutional position; haya — is; krsnera — of Lord Krsna; nitya-dasa — eternal servant; krsnera — of Lord Krsna; tatastha — marginal; sakti — potency; bheda-abheda — one and different; prakasa — manifestation; surya-amsa — part and parcel of the sun; kirana — a ray of sunshine; yaiche — as; agni-jvala-caya — molecular particle of fire; svabhavika — naturally; krsnera — of Lord Krsna; tina-prakara — three varieties; sakti — energies; haya — there are.

TRANSLATION

It is the living entity’s constitutional position to be an eternal servant of Krsna because he is the marginal energy of Krsna and a manifestation simultaneously one with and different from the Lord, like a molecular particle of sunshine or fire. Krsna has three varieties of energy.

PURPORT

Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura explains these verses as follows: Sri Sanatana Gosvami asked Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, “Who am I?” In answer, the Lord replied, “You are a pure living entity. You are neither the gross material body nor the subtle body composed of mind and intelligence. Actually you are a spirit soul, eternally part and parcel of the Supreme Soul, Krsna. Therefore you are His eternal servant. You belong to Krsna’s marginal potency. There are two worlds — the spiritual world and the material world — and you are situated between the material and spiritual potencies. You have a relationship with both the material and the spiritual world; therefore you are called the marginal potency. You are related with Krsna as one and simultaneously different. Because you are spirit soul, you are one in quality with the Supreme Personality of Godhead, but because you are a very minute particle of spirit soul, you are different from the Supreme Soul. Therefore your position is simultaneously one with and different from the Supreme Soul. The examples given are those of the sun itself and the small particles of sunshine and of a blazing fire and the small particles of fire.” Another explanation of these verses can be found in Adi-lila, Chapter Two, verse 96.

In his Paramatma Sandarbha Jiva Goswami writes:

evam ekasya purusasya nanatvam upapadya tasya punar amsa vivriyante. atra dvi-vidha amsah svamsa vibhinnamsac ca. vibhinnamsas tatastha-cakty-atmaka jiva iti vaksyate. svamsas tu guna-lila dy-avatara-bhedena vividhah. tatra lila dy-avatarah prasagga-saggatya sri-krsna-sandarbhe vaksyante.

evam thus; ekasya - of one; purusasya - purusa-avatar; nanatvam - variety; upapadya - is explained; tasya - of Him; punar - again; amsa - parts; vivriyante are explained; atra - here; dvi-vidha - two kinds; amsah - parts; svamsa - own parts; vibhinnamsac - separated parts; ca. - also; vibhinnamsas separated parts; tatastha-cakty- atmaka - marginal potency; jiva - individual souls; iti - thus; vaksyate. - will be explained; svamsas own parts; tu - but; guna- lila dy-avatara-bhedena - with differences oif guna and lila avataras; vividhah. - various; tatra - there; lila dy- avatarah beginning with lila avataras; prasagga-saggatya - by contact; sri-krsna-sandarbhe - in Sri Krsna-sandarbha; vaksyante. - will be explained; gunavatara guna avataras; yatha as.

In this way it has been explained that although the purusa- avatara is a single person, He nevertheless expands in many different forms. The Supreme Personality of Godhead has two kinds of expansions: 1. svamsa (personal expansions), and 2. vibhinnamsa (separated expansions). The Lord’s separated expansions are the individual spirit souls, who are all the Lord’s marginal potency (tatastha-sakti). The Lord’s personal expansions are His many incarnations, such as His guna-avatars and lila-avataras. The Lord’s lila-avataras and other incarnations will be described later in the Sri Krsna-sandarbha.

tad evam ananta eva jivakhyas tatasthah caktayah. tatra tasam varga-dvayam. eko vargo ‘nadita eva bhagavad-unmukhah. anyas tv anadita eva bhagavat-paragmukhah. svabhavatas tadiya- jnana-bhavat tadiya-jnanabhavac ca.

tat - that; evam - thus; ananta - limitless; eva - inded; jivakhyah - called individual souls; tatasthah - marginal; caktayah. - potencies; tatra - there; tasam - of them; varga-dvayam. - two groups; ekah - one; vargah - group; anadita - from time immemorial; eva - indeed; bhagavad-unmukhah. - favorable to the Supreme Personality of Godhead; anyah - others; tv - but; anadita - from time imemmorial; eva - indeed; bhagavat-paragmukhah. - averse to the Supreme Personality of Godhead; svabhavatah - by nature; tadiya - of Him; jana - knowledge; bhavat - because of the nature; tadiya - of Him; jnana - the knowledge; abhavat - because of the absence; ca - also.

Thus the Lord’s marginal [tatasthah] potencies, who are called the individual spirit souls are limitless in number. Still, they may be divided into two groups: 1. the souls who, from time immemorial, are favorable to the Supreme Lord, and 2. the rebellious souls who, from time immemorial, are averse to the Supreme Lord. This is because one group is aware of the Lord’s glories and the other group is not aware of them.

tatra prathamo ‘ntaragga-sakti-vilasanugrhito nitya- bhagavat-parikara-rupo garudadikah. yathoktam padmottara-khande tri-pad-vibhuter lokas tu ity adau bhagavat-sandarbhodahrte. asya ca tatasthatvam jivatva-prasiddher isvaratva-kotav apravecat.

tatra - there; prathamah - first; antaragga-sakti - internal potency; vilasa - pastimes; anugrhitah - attained the mercy; nitya - eternal; bhagavat - of the Supreme Personality of Godhead; parikara-rupah - the form of associates; garudadikah. - beginning with Garuda; yatha - as; uktam - said; padmottara-khande - in thje Padma Purana, Uttara-khanda; tri-pad-vibhuteh - of three fourths of the Lord’s potencies; lokah - the world; tu - indeed; iti - thus; adau - beginning; bhagavat-sandarbhodahrte - dessribed in the Bhagavat-sandarbha; asya - of this; ca - also; tatasthatvam - the state of ebing the marginal potency; jivatva-prasiddheh - of the proof of being the individual spirit souls; isvaratva - of the status of the Supreme Personality of Godhead; kotau - on the edge; apravecat - because of not entering.

The first group consists of Garuda and the other eternal associates of the Lord, These devotees take shelter of the Lord’s internal potency and enjoy pastimes with Him. They reside in the spiritual world, which will be described in the Bhagavat- sandarbha (anuccheda 78) where the following words of Padma Purana, Uttara-khanda are quoted:

“Countless blissful spiritual planets are in the spiritual sky, which is three fourths of the entire creation.”

Thus, although the nature of the individual souls is on the borderline of the nature of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, the individual souls do not enter that nature. Thus they remain different from the Lord.

tad evam paramatmanas tatasthakhya saktir vivrta. antaraggakhya tu purvavad eva jYeya. atha bahiraggakhya vivriyate

tat - that; evam - thus; paramatmanah - of the Supreme Personality of Godhead; tatasthakhya - called the marginal potency; saktih - potency; vivrta. - revealed; antaraggakhya - called the internal potency; tu - indeed; purvavat - as before; eva - indeed; jYeya - should be known; atha - now; bahiraggakhya - called the external potency; vivriyate - is revealed.

In this way we have described the Lord’s marginal potency. we have already described the Lord’s internal potency.

This is from Srila Prabhupada’s “Teachings of Lord Caitanya”

The supreme knowledge of Krsna is exhibited in three different energies - internal, marginal and external. By virtue of His internal energy, He exists in Himself with His spiritual paraphernalia; by means of His marginal energy (tatastha sakti), He exhibits Himself as the living entities, and by means of His external energy He exhibits Himself as material energy. Behind each and every energetic exhibition there is the background of eternity, pleasure, potency and full cognizance.

This is from “Sri Caitanya’s Teachings” by Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura

Vishnu has three energies, one of them is meant for manifestation of His eternal Abode, another potency is for creating all human souls who are emanation from His Tatastha-sakti found between the temporal and eternal worlds. By this potency He creates human souls. The human souls has two different predilections. If he desires to serve God-head he is allowed into the eternal Region. If he desires to lord it over this world he comes down for enjoying in different capacities the products of the Deluding potency.

This position, which is like a geometrical line, is designated tatastha-sakti, the fountain-head of all human souls. Tatastha-sakti is located between the two potencies of Vishnu one of which maintains this transforming world and the other is the source of the manifestation of the eternal world that does not change like this world. These potencies belong to the Personality of God-head Vishnu

Tathastha does not refer to a place, it does not possess a locatice meaning in the sense of being in a particular spot. Tatastha has an ontological meaning. The jiva is a sakti of the Lord, it exists as neither Cit Sakti nor as Maya Sakti, we exist in between these two categories of saktis, therefore we are called Tatastha. The place where water, as in a river an ocean or lake, where it meets the land, that is called tata. The Cit Sakti is represented by the water and the Maya Sakti us represented by the land. Since we are neither the Maya Sakti nor the Cit Sakti, neither the water or the land, we are called tatastha, or the inbetween the water and the land. The tide can cause us to be submerged in water or the tide can retreat and we can become left on the land. The jiva can be influenced and come under the dominion of the Cit Sakti or of the Maya Sakti. Either was the constitutional position of the jiva is tatastha sakti, the marginal potency, on the margin or border between 2 other potencies.

Sri Caitanya Caritamrta Madhya 20.108-109

jivera ’svarupa’ haya — krsnera ‘nitya-dasa’

krsnera ‘tatastha-sakti’ ‘bhedabheda-prakasa’

suryamsa-kirana, yaiche agni-jvala-caya

svabhavika krsnera tina-prakara ’sakti’ haya

SYNONYMS

jivera — of the living entity; svarupa — the constitutional position; haya — is; krsnera — of Lord Krsna; nitya-dasa — eternal servant; krsnera — of Lord Krsna; tatastha — marginal; sakti — potency; bheda-abheda — one and different; prakasa — manifestation; surya-amsa — part and parcel of the sun; kirana — a ray of sunshine; yaiche — as; agni-jvala-caya — molecular particle of fire; svabhavika — naturally; krsnera — of Lord Krsna; tina-prakara — three varieties; sakti — energies; haya — there are.

TRANSLATION

It is the living entity’s constitutional position to be an eternal servant of Krsna because he is the marginal energy of Krsna and a manifestation simultaneously one with and different from the Lord, like a molecular particle of sunshine or fire. Krsna has three varieties of energy.

 

Hi sarva, you are now the third person I have seen plagiarizing my writing on this forum. I don't visit here very much anymore so there may be more. The first two I confronted: Krsna (who copy and pasted numerous writings of mine from other forums and tried to pass them off as his here, still there are many available here without his citing who actually wrote them), and suchandra who I caught plagiarizing me once. In both cases when confronted, their response was somewhat similar, they wouldn't admit they did anything wrong, suchandra was insulting to me for daring to expose his plagiarism. So what are you going to do? What is it with you people? You guys are some of the most prolific writers on this forum, why is it you feel the need to plagiarize? It's perfectly alright to copy and paste if you cite the source, but copy and pasting without doing that says something about you guys (girls?) and your desire to gain adoration.

[theist]

We should always give credit where credit is due, even to our supposed enemies what to speak of our friends and allies in krishna consciousness. I've noted shiva having this problem in the past.

[Beggar]

 

Jiva's of the material world unite!!! You have nothing but your chains to loose!!!

[Beggar]

 

 

Jiva's of the material world unite!!! You have nothing but your chains to loose!!!

 

 

Wait a minute! Didn't I say that?

[shiva]

 

A Vedabase search produces these as the only occasions where "tatastha" appears in the books of Srila Prabhupada.

 

 

 

That is not accurate. The search capability for words used by the vedabase only searches for words in verses, it doesn't search for words in the purports.

[shiva]

Another thing for sarva gattah:

 

You didn't copy this correctly

 

 

This is from “Sri Caitanya’s Teachings” by Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura

 

Vishnu has three energies, one of them is meant for manifestation of His eternal Abode, another potency is for creating all human souls who are emanation from His Tatastha-sakti found between the temporal and eternal worlds. By this potency He creates human souls. The human souls has two different predilections. If he desires to serve God-head he is allowed into the eternal Region. If he desires to lord it over this world he comes down for enjoying in different capacities the products of the Deluding potency.

 

This position, which is like a geometrical line, is designated tatastha-sakti, the fountain-head of all human souls. Tatastha-sakti is located between the two potencies of Vishnu one of which maintains this transforming world and the other is the source of the manifestation of the eternal world that does not change like this world. These potencies belong to the Personality of God-head Vishnu

 

Tathastha does not refer to a place, it does not possess a locatice meaning in the sense of being in a particular spot. Tatastha has an ontological meaning. The jiva is a sakti of the Lord, it exists as neither Cit Sakti nor as Maya Sakti, we exist in between these two categories of saktis, therefore we are called Tatastha. The place where water, as in a river an ocean or lake, where it meets the land, that is called tata. The Cit Sakti is represented by the water and the Maya Sakti us represented by the land. Since we are neither the Maya Sakti nor the Cit Sakti, neither the water or the land, we are called tatastha, or the inbetween the water and the land. The tide can cause us to be submerged in water or the tide can retreat and we can become left on the land. The jiva can be influenced and come under the dominion of the Cit Sakti or of the Maya Sakti. Either was the constitutional position of the jiva is tatastha sakti, the marginal potency, on the margin or border between 2 other potencies.

 

Because you didn't include the proper formatting for quotes it appears that the entire bit above is from “Sri Caitanya’s Teachings” by Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura. In fact the third paragraph is my commentary, with my typo "locatice" which should have been "locative" (c and v are right next to each other on the keyboard), and also the typo for "Either was the constitutional": "was" should have been "way".

[Beggar]

Interestingly both sides are correct. Tatastha is a place, a theoretical place, so from that viewpoint, yes, it really isn't a place. But then again if you don't consider it a place, at least theoretically, then you will miss many of the more subtle explanations of the acaryas. Its just words anyway, its really the thoughts that the acaryas are trying to convey with the use of words that is important. Also words are used for time, place and circumstance. Circumstance in the world of syntax would be called context. A word, yes even a sanskrit word, will often have a different meaning in relation to the context in which it is used. It is difficult enough to express siddhanta in Sanskrit or even Sanskritized Bengali, what to speak of English. But what can be done, today everyone is an expert, even Bhakta so and so, can get on the internet soapbox and spout - whatever? Everyone wants to interpret Srila Prabhupada according to their own mentality without accepting any guidance and think that their conception is "As It Is". It reminds me of the Tower of Babel in the Old Testament.

[Sonic Yogi]

TLC ch.20

 

 

When the infinitesimal living entities are engaged in their infinitesimal desires for material enjoyment, they are called jīva-śakti, but when they are dovetailed with the infinite, they are called liberated souls.

 

 

Did anyone get that?

They are called "jiva-shakti" up and until they are liberated.

The jivatama becomes "mahatma".

 

Then we find they are called 'mahatma" by Lord Krishna, Lord Siva etc.

[Sonic Yogi]

 

That is not accurate. The search capability for words used by the vedabase only searches for words in verses, it doesn't search for words in the purports.

 

duh,no kidding?

But, if the word doesn't appear in the verse, then quoting a purport won't hold up when you are discussing with those who aren't disciples of Prabhupada.

 

Purports are comments.

 

I am after shastric quotes not comments.

[Sonic Yogi]

 

Interestingly both sides are correct. Tatastha is a place, a theoretical place, so from that viewpoint, yes, it really isn't a place. But then again if you don't consider it a place, at least theoretically, then you will miss many of the more subtle explanations of the acaryas. Its just words anyway, its really the thoughts that the acaryas are trying to convey with the use of words that is important. Also words are used for time, place and circumstance. Circumstance in the world of syntax would be called context. A word, yes even a sanskrit word, will often have a different meaning in relation to the context in which it is used. It is difficult enough to express siddhanta in Sanskrit or even Sanskritized Bengali, what to speak of English. But what can be done, today everyone is an expert, even Bhakta so and so, can get on the internet soapbox and spout - whatever? Everyone wants to interpret Srila Prabhupada according to their own mentality without accepting any guidance and think that their conception is "As It Is". It reminds me of the Tower of Babel in the Old Testament.

The Viraja river or causal ocean is also referred to as "the marginal plane".

So, the "tatastha" jiva is the jiva that is manifested by Maha-Vishnu as he rests in the Viraja river or the "marginal" plane between the spiritual and material worlds.

 

Not all jivas are "tatastha" jivas.

 

There are also jivas that are integrated into the internal potency. (svarupa-shakti)

 

Marginal jivas are the jivas that are bereft of hladini-shakti (love of Krishna).

 

To think that the gopi jivas in Krsnaloka are marginal is just wrong.

 

In fact all the gopis are expanded via the hladini-shakti and are not "jivas" anymore.

 

I quoted shastra above to show that all the gopis are expansions of Radha.

They are NOT tatastha-jivas manifested by Paramatma.

[Sonic Yogi]

Anyone that thinks that the liberated souls who are the associates of Krishna in Goloka to be "marginal" shakti is surely smoking some good Maui-wowee!!

 

None of us needs to be coming off like finished professors that have it all figured out because we took a lot of LSD.

[shiva]

 

The Viraja river or causal ocean is also referred to as "the marginal plane".

So, the "tatastha" jiva is the jiva that is manifested by Maha-Vishnu as he rests in the Viraja river or the "marginal" plane between the spiritual and material worlds.

 

Not all jivas are "tatastha" jivas.

 

There are also jivas that are integrated into the internal potency. (svarupa-shakti)

 

Marginal jivas are the jivas that are bereft of hladini-shakti (love of Krishna).

 

To think that the gopi jivas in Krsnaloka are marginal is just wrong.

 

In fact all the gopis are expanded via the hladini-shakti and are not "jivas" anymore.

 

I quoted shastra above to show that all the gopis are expansions of Radha.

They are NOT tatastha-jivas manifested by Paramatma.

 

 

From Mahaprabhura Siksa: The Teachings of Chaitanya Mahaprabhu by Bhaktivinoda Thakura:

 

 

Sri Jiva says:

 

tad evam ananta eva jivakhyas tatasthah saktayah

tatra tasam varga-dvayam eko vargo’ nadita

 

eva bhagavad-unmukhah anyas tv anadita eva bhagavat-paranmukhah svabhavatas tadiya-jnana-bhavat tadiya-jnanabhavat ca tatra prathamo’ ntaranga- sakti vilasanu

grhito nitya-bhagavat-parikara rupo garudadikah asya

ca tatasthatvam jivatva-prasiddher isvaratva-kotav

apravesat aparam tu tat paranmukhatva-

dosena labdha-chidraya mayaya paribhutah samsari

 

The number of jivas is unlimited. They are divided into two classes. One class is favorable to the Lord without beginning. The other class is averse to the Lord without beginning. The first class is favorable to the Lord because of knowledge of relationship with the Lord. The second class is averse to the Lord because of lack of that knowledge. The favorable jivas are all recipients of the Lords splendid internal energy. They are the eternal associates of the Lord, such as Garuda. They are not in the category of the Lord, as in shown by the scriptures. They are still tatastha or jiva. The second class of jivas is devoid of the help of the internal energy as they are averse to the Lord. Because of this lack, they are overwhelmed by maya and take repeated birth in the material world.

 

From Bhaktivinoda’s Jaiva Dharma

 

 

Vrajanatha: What is the Vedantic meaning of the word tatastha?

 

Babaji: The space between the ocean and the land is called the tata (shore), but the place that touches the ocean is actually nothing but land, so where is the shore? The tata is the line of distinction separating the ocean and the land, and it is so fine that it cannot be seen with the gross eyes. If we compare the transcendental realm to the ocean, and the material world to the land, then tata is the subtle line that divides the two, and the jiva-sakti is situated at the place where the two meet. The jivas are like the countless atomic particles of light within the sunrays. Being situated in the middle place, the jivas see the spiritual world on one side and the material universe created by maya on the other. Just as Bhagavan’s spiritual sakti on one side is unlimited, maya-sakti on the other side is also very powerful. The innumerable subtle (suksma) jivas are situated between these two. The jivas are marginal by nature because they have manifested from Krsna’s tatasthasakti (marginal potency).

 

Vrajanatha: What is the tatastha-svabhava (marginal nature)?

 

Babaji: It is the nature that enables one to be situated between both worlds, and to see both sides. Tatastha-svabhava is the eligibility to come under the control of either of the saktis. Sometimes the shore is submerged in the river because of erosion, and then again it becomes one with the land because the river changes its course. If the jiva looks in the direction of Krsna – that is, towards the spiritual world – he is influenced by Krsna sakti. He then enters the spiritual world, and serves Bhagavan in his pure, conscious, spiritual form. However, if he looks towards maya, he becomes opposed to Krsna and is incarcerated by maya. This dual-faceted nature is called the tatastha-svabhava (marginal nature)…

 

…Vrajanatha: So maya has nothing whatever to do with creating the svarupa of the jivas – this has to be accepted. At the same time, I have also clearly understood that the jiva is by nature subject to the influence of maya. Now I want to know, did the cit-sakti create the jivas and give them their tatastha-svabhava (marginal nature)?

 

Babaji: No, the cit-sakti is paripurna-sakti, the complete potency of Krsna, and its manifestations are all eternally perfect substances.The jiva is not nitya-siddha, although when he performs sadhana, he can become sadhana-siddha and enjoy transcendental happiness like the nitya-siddhas, eternally perfect beings. All the four types of Srimati Radhika’s sakhis are nitya-siddha, and they are direct expansions (kaya-vyuha) of the cit-sakti, Srimati Radhika Herself. All the jivas, on the other hand, have manifested from Sri Krsna’s jiva-sakti. The cit-sakti is Sri Krsna’s complete sakti, whereas the jiva-sakti is His incomplete sakti. Just as the complete tattvas are all transformations of the complete potency, similarly innumerable atomic, conscious jivas are transformations of the incomplete sakti.

 

(...)

 

 

Vrajanatha: Will you please explain who are the nitya-siddha gopis and who are the sadhana-siddha gopis?

 

Babaji: Srimati Radharani is Sri Krsna’s svarupa-sakti, and the eight principal sakhis are Her first kaya-vyuha (bodily expansions). The other sakhis follow behind as Her further kaya-vyuha. All these sakhis are nitya-siddha; they are svarupa-sakti-tattva, not jiva-tattva. The general sakhis of Vraja – who attained perfection by performing sadhana – follow Srimati Radharani’s eternal associates (parikara), and they are known as sadhana-siddha jivas. Having been imbued with the potency of hladini-sakti, they attained salokya (residence in vraja-aprakrta-lila) with the nityasiddha sakhis of Vraja. Jivas who attain perfection by the path of raganuga-sadhana in srngara-rasa are included amongst the sadhana-siddha sakhis.

 

 

CC Ādi 4.81:

 

 

Among them are various groups of consorts in Vraja who have varieties of sentiments and mellows. They help Lord Kṛṣṇa taste all the sweetness of the rāsa dance and other pastimes.

 

PURPORT

 

As already explained, Kṛṣṇa and Rādhā are one in two. They are identical. Kṛṣṇa expands Himself in multi-incarnations and plenary portions like the puruṣas. Similarly, Śrīmatī Rādhārāṇī expands Herself in multiforms as the goddesses of fortune, the queens and the damsels of Vraja. Such expansions from Śrīmatī Rādhārāṇī are all Her plenary portions. All these womanly forms of Kṛṣṇa are expansions corresponding to His plenary expansions of Viṣṇu forms. These expansions have been compared to reflected forms of the original form. There is no difference between the original form and the reflected forms. The female reflections of Kṛṣṇa’s pleasure potency are as good as Kṛṣṇa Himself.

 

The plenary expansions of Kṛṣṇa’s personality are called vaibhava-vilāsa and vaibhava-prakāśa, and Rādhā’s expansions are similarly described. The goddesses of fortune are Her vaibhava-vilāsa forms, and the queens are Her vaibhava-prakāśa forms. The personal associates of Rādhārāṇī, the damsels of Vraja, are direct expansions of Her body. As expansions of Her personal form and transcendental disposition, they are agents of different reciprocations of love in the pastimes of Lord Kṛṣṇa, under the supreme direction of Śrīmatī Rādhārāṇī. In the transcendental realm, enjoyment is fully relished in variety. The exuberance of transcendental mellows is increased by the association of a large number of personalities similar to Rādhārāṇī, who are also known as gopīs or sakhīs. The variety of innumerable mistresses is a source of relish for Śrī Kṛṣṇa, and therefore these expansions from Śrīmatī Rādhārāṇī are necessary for enhancing the pleasure potency of Śrī Kṛṣṇa. Their transcendental exchanges of love are the superexcellent affairs of the pastimes in Vṛndāvana. By these expansions of Śrīmatī Rādhārāṇī’s personal body, She helps Lord Kṛṣṇa taste the rāsa dance and other, similar activities. Śrīmatī Rādhārāṇī, being the central petal of the rāsa-līlā flower, is also known by the names found in the following verses.

[Sonic Yogi]

Duh, there are unlimited marginal jivas in the spiritual sky.

They are make up what is known as the brahmajyoti.

 

But, the personal associates of Krishna are not "marginal" anything.

 

Can the professor please show us where the associates of Radha and Krishna are "marginal" living entities?

[shiva]

 

Duh, there are unlimited marginal jivas in the spiritual sky.

They are make up what is known as the brahmajyoti.

 

But, the personal associates of Krishna are not "marginal" anything.

 

Can the professor please show us where the associates of Radha and Krishna are "marginal" living entities?

 

In the above quote from Bhaktivinoda quoting Jiva Goswami where he states that the eternal jiva associates of the lord are still tatastha. Maybe you should read what someone writes before responding to it. You do know that marginal is an English translation for tatastha, that marginal means: on the margin or border between two things?

 

This topic has been gone through more than enough, for some reason some people reject what the acharyas have said on this topic and yet claim they are not rejecting what they say. I think some people need to move on and let it go...

[Sonic Yogi]

 

In the above quote from Bhaktivinoda quoting Jiva Goswami where he states that the eternal jiva associates of the lord are still tatastha.

I haven't seen that anywhere.

I think your imagination is just running wild.

 

The personal associates of Radha and Krishna are not marginal energy.

 

You are just imagining that they are.

 

when the jiva gets imbued with hladini shakti he is not "marginal" anymore, but has been taken into the internal energy.

 

There is nothing marginal in the whole of Goloka.

It is all internal energy.

No marginal energy there.

[Beggar]

 

. You do know that marginal is an English translation for tatastha, that marginal means: on the margin or border between two things?

 

The border between Germany and France is a line. There is a fence on the line and that is the border, bas. The border between the material and spiritual energies is called tatastha. Tata[astha], tata means literally the shore on a beach. The idea is two-fold, one is that the ocean is moving back and forth, so that the borderline is constantly changing. The second idea to be conveyed is that the border between the beach sand and the water is not something we can measure with exaction. Some of the sand is below the water. Some of the sand is touching the water and very wet. Some of the sand is not touching the water but is still wet. Some of the sand is a little further inland and slightly moist and eventually there is sand which is completely dry; But then again the waves or the tide comes in and everything changes. So the exact margin or border in the case of the tatastha - shore and the tatastha sakti cannot be measured in an exact way. So one important aspect of the tatastha conception is that it is a conception which is so subtle as to be immeasurable by our calculative, rational minds. Arguing that the tatastha is a place or is not a place is like arguing that at the exact margin or border between the sea and the land is either wet or dry. If one is involved in taking sides in this duality then we just don't get it. Just chant, do service and leave the thinking to thinkers and the philosophy to philosophers. Otherwise we will will be implicated in the Internet's 21st Century Hare Krsna Tower of Babel which is the antithesis of the preaching of those holy souls who have sacrificed their lives to spread Krsna Conciousness.

[Sonic Yogi]

The spiritual world is made of samvit, sandhini and hladini potencies.

There is no marginal energy in any of the spiritual planets.

[Sonic Yogi]

 

Quote: "It should be understood that the jiva soul is neither produced of this material world, nor created in the transcendental world. They are originated from the marginal line between the transcendental and mundane spheres."

(TATTVA VIVEKA 2.4, by Srila Bhaktivinode Thakura, p 55)

[bija]

Some qualities of the marginal jiva would remain - but these qualities intrinsic to the soul, such as independance, would reach full potential within spiritual shelter.

 

Otherwise the qualties are limited (under shelter of the temporary).

[Sonic Yogi]

 

"The root of all actions is the desire for acts, the root of which again is avidya. Avidya is the name for the forgetfulness of soul's essential nature that 'I am Krsna's servant.' This avidya did not commence within the course of the mundane time. That root of karma of the jiva arose when he was at the tatastha position. As such, the beginning of karma is not to be traced within mundane time, and, on account karma is beginningless."

(JAIVA DHARMA, p 234, by Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur)

 

Tatastha is a "position".

 

Professor Kapoor refers to it as a "position" as well.

 

It is not a characteristic of the soul, but a "position".