The jiva is the tatastha sakti

[Sonic Yogi]

Here is a nice shastric reference to contemplate.

 

 

Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta Madhya 6.160

 

antarańgā — cic-chakti, taṭasthā — jīva-śakti

 

bahirańgā — māyā, — tine kare prema-bhakti

 

SYNONYMS

 

antarańgā — the internal potency; cit-śakti — the spiritual potency; taṭasthā — the marginal potency; jīva-śakti — the living entities; bahirańgā — the external potency; māyā — the illusory energy; tine — all three of them; kare — do; prema-bhakti — devotional service in love.

 

TRANSLATION

 

"The spiritual potency of the Supreme Personality of Godhead also appears in three phases — internal, marginal and external. These are all engaged in His devotional service in love.

 

PURPORT

 

The spiritual potency of the Lord is manifested in three phases — the internal or spiritual potency, the marginal potency, which consists of the living entities, and the external potency, known as māyā-śakti. We must understand that in each of these three phases the original spiritual potencies of pleasure, eternity and knowledge remain intact. When the potencies of spiritual pleasure and knowledge are both bestowed upon the conditioned souls, the conditioned souls can escape the clutches of the external potency, māyā, which acts as a cover obscuring one's spiritual identity. When freed, the living entity awakens to Kṛṣṇa consciousness and engages in devotional service with love and affection.

 

So, the ONE spiritual energy of the Lord is manifested in PHASES.

Who is to say that a portion of that energy cannot be transformed and manifested in another phase?

Anything is possible.

Krishna can manipulate his energies anyway he likes.

[Sonic Yogi]

 

It seems to me that these perfect living entities who engage in the highest rasa available are still considered jiva or tatastha or marginal because they always retain the option/potential to fall or lord it over material nature.

 

 

Read it again prabhu, I didn't see anything about the jivas mentioned as being "marginal" jivas.

 

That is what we are trying to establish here is the difference between a marginal jiva and an internal jiva.

 

When a jiva is perfect even though he has free will he can never fall down.

Otherwise, there is no meaning to "siddha".

 

NO, he cannot fall down.

He is perfect.

The potential to fall down would render him imperfect and therefore NOT siddha.

[Sonic Yogi]

 

Just to add a point that I brought up in my last post, the baddha jivas in this world also have the temporary characteristic or tatastha laksana of being marginal.

 

That is the crucial point.

To say that the parshadas of Krishna are "tatastha" or marginal jivas is the basis of the dreamervadi/Fallvadi theory and I certainly feel that unless that tatastha in Goloka concept can be defeated the dreamervadis win the debate.

 

I am even willing to concede that they are sometimes referred to as marginal in the sense that they came up from the ranks of the conditioned souls, but once they enter into the internal lila of Krishna I don't see any way that they can be considered as marginal or tatastha-shakti.

 

They are spoken of as marginal because they came from that position.

But, when they are invested with the Cit-shakti and hladini-shakti as Srila Prabhupada referred to above, they are nothing similar to a baddha-jiva of the marginal type.

 

Anyway, these are my thoughts and I wish I had more time to study and write.

I am still researching and trying to get at the bottom of the matter.

(If at all that can be done)

 

Unlike Shiva, I am not quite yet a finished professor who knows all and sees all thanks to some good LSD.

 

He also thinks Michael Jackson is an incarnation of Krishna.

 

So, his conclusions are suspect as far as I am concerned.

[Beggar]

In Bhagavad Gita Krsna only speaks of two energies, para prakrti and apara prakrti. So the svaupa laksana of the jiva is to be para prakrti. The tatastha laksana or marginal characteristic of the baddha jiva is that he/she is fallible.

This is interesting to look at:

 

 

 

 

 

Bhagavad Gita As It Is

 

<center>Chapter 15. The Yoga of the Supreme Person</center>

 

TEXT 16

 

 

dvav imau purusau loke

ksaras caksara eva ca

ksarah sarvani bhutani

kuta-stho 'ksara ucyate

 

 

SYNONYMS

 

dvau--two; imau--in this (world); purusau--living entities; loke--in the world; ksarah--fallible; ca--and; aksarah--infallible; eva--certainly; ca--and; ksarah--the fallible; sarvani--all; bhutani--living entities; kuta-sthah--in oneness; aksarah--infallible; ucyate--is said.

 

TRANSLATION

 

There are two classes of beings, the fallible and the infallible. In the material world every entity is fallible, and in the spiritual world every entity is called infallible.

 

PURPORT

 

As already explained, the Lord in His incarnation as Vyasadeva compiled the Vedanta-sutra. Here the Lord is giving, in summary, the contents of the Vedanta-sutra: He says that the living entities, who are innumerable, can be divided into two classes--the fallible and the infallible. The living entities are eternally separated parts and parcels of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. When they are in contact with the material world, they are called jiva-bhuta,sarvani bhutani, mean that they are fallible. and the Sanskrit words given here, Those who are in oneness with the Supreme Personality of Godhead, however, are called infallible. Oneness does not mean that they have no individuality, but that there is no disunity. They are all agreeable to the purpose of the creation. Of course, in the spiritual world, there is no such thing as creation, but since the Supreme Personality of Godhead has stated in the Vedanta-sutra that He is the source of all emanations, that conception is explained.

According to the statement of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Lord Krsna, there are two classes of men. The Vedas give evidence of this, so there is no doubt about it. The living entities, who are struggling in this world with the mind and five senses, have their material bodies which are changing as long as the living entities are conditioned. One's body changes due to contact with matter; matter is changing, so the living entity appears to be changing. But in the spiritual world the body is not made of matter; therefore there is no change. In the material world the living entity undergoes six changes--birth, growth, duration, reproduction, then dwindling and vanishing. These are the changes of the material body. But in the spiritual world the body does not change; there is no old age, there is no birth, there is no death. There all exists in oneness. It is more clearly explained as sarvani bhutani: any living entity who has come in contact with matter, beginning from the first created being, Brahma, down to a small ant, is changing its body; therefore they are all fallible. In the spiritual world, however, they are always liberated in oneness.

 

Note: infallible

[Sonic Yogi]

 

They NEVER fall, but always retain the potential, ala Free will.

 

 

Well, Krishna has free will to the unlimited degree.

Does that mean he can fall down from being the Supreme Being?

 

Why does free will necessitate the ability to fall down?

 

Does not Radharani have free will?

Or is she a slave?

 

Can Radha fall down?

 

Free will does not necessitate the imperfection of fallibility.

In fact, free will and infallibility are both qualities of the nitya-siddhas.

 

Such is the version of Lord Krishna.

 

Krishna says his pure devotees are infallible.

 

Why do so many devotees insist that the souls are fallible because they have free will?

 

We have free will here but we don't have the free will to create our own planets or fly through outer space.

Free will always has it's parameters.

In Goloka, the parameter of free will does not include the capacity to be overcome by ignorance and fall down from love of Krishna.

 

Free will in Goloka is not the same kind of false free will that living entities in illusion think they have.

[Sonic Yogi]

 

It should be understood that the jiva soul is neither produced of this material world, nor created in the transcendental world. They are originated from the marginal line between the transcendental and mundane spheres. (Tattva Viveka 2.4, by Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura, page 55)

 

Hence, tatastha-shakti.

[Sonic Yogi]

Among the unlimited potencies of Sri Krsna, there is one known as tatastha-sakti (border-potency). From that sakti comes out the jiva-souls remaining at the junction of the two worlds, viz., the transcendental and the mundane ones, may contact them both. In its composition it is only the atomic cit (pure sentience) . . . On account of the purity in its composition, it has got the capacity for being the eternal denizen with divine bliss in the transcendental power. (Jaiva Dharma, chapter 4, page 46

[Sonic Yogi]

A jiva is a spark of the eternal consciousness. A jiva is first situated on the line of demarcation between the material world and the spiritual world. There those jivas who do not forget their relation with Krsna derive the power of consciousness and are drawn into the spiritual world-they come in eternal touch with Krsna and enjoy beatitude arising from the worship of Krsna. And those who forget Krsna and give themselves up to maya's enjoyments, maya'with her own force draws them into herself. It is from that very moment that we fall into the misery of this world. (Jaiva Dharma, chapter 7, page 95-96)

[Sonic Yogi]

The semblance or dim reflection of the internal Cit-potency is the jiva-sakti (potency) or Tatastha-sakti stationed in between cit-jagat and a-cit-jagat or mayic-jagat whereas the shadow or perverted reflection of that internal cit potency is the maya-sakti or external a-cit potency. All the jivas emanate from the tatastha-sakti of God and accordingly the mundane worlds emanate from the maya-sakti of God. (Sri Srimad Bhagavat-arka Marichimala, chap. 1, Introd., By Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura)

[Sonic Yogi]

The jiva-souls are emanated from the jiva-sakti of Sri Krsna and they are spiritual but atomic. In the very self of the jiva-soul or in his constitution practically there remains no maya. As jiva-souls are atomic in size and being emanated from the tatastha-sakti of Sri Krsna (viz. from the intermediary-potency which exists in between cit-jagat and mayic-jagat) jiva-soul is liable to be subjected to maya when becomes averse to his constitutional right of serving the Lord. Jiva-soul in bondage misconstrues himself as the doer and enjoyer, therefore is affinated to the adopted bodies which are provided by prakrti. A jiva by dint of spiritual virtue may possess steadfast devotion to Sri Krsna and getting rid of worldly affinity goes back to the abode of bliss. (Sri Srimad Bhagavat-arka Marichimala, ch. 7, text 34, purport by Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura)

[Sonic Yogi]

The cit-potency of God is boundless, so is His maya-potency also enormous; between them are the innumerable minute jivas. The Jivas emanate from the tatastha sakti (border potency) of Sri Krsna; so is the nature to tatastha (border potency) of Sri Krsna. (Jaiva Dharma, chapter 15, page 213)

[Sonic Yogi]

The root of all actions is the desire for acts, the root of which again is avidya. Avidya is the name for the forgetfulness of soul's essential nature that 'I am Krsna's servant.' This avidya did not commence within the course of the mundane time. That root of karma of the jiva arose when he was at the tatastha position. As such, the beginning of karma is not to be traced within mundane time, and, on that account karma is beginningless. (Jaiva Dharma, page 234)

[Sonic Yogi]

Mahavisnu, the Incarnation of Sankarsana, establishing Himself in the heart of jiva-sakti as Paramatma, creates the jiva-souls of tatastha-sakti. These jivas are susceptible to the influence of maya. Innumerable jivas, overcome fastened by maya, are attached to the three gunas. (sattva, rajah, tamah) of maya. As such, the conclusion is that it is the jiva-sakti that begets the jivas, and not the cit-sakti. (Jaiva-Dharma, p. 215-216)

[Sonic Yogi]

Visnu has three energies, one of them is meant for manifestation of His eternal abode, another Potency is for creating all human souls who are emanations from His tatastha-sakti found between the temporal and eternal worlds. By this potency He creates human souls. The human soul has two different predilections. If he desires to serve Godhead he is allowed into the Eternal Region. If he desires to lord it over this world he comes down for enjoying in different capacities the products of the Deluding Potency. (Sri Caitanya's Teacings-Part II, Chapter One, Third Edition, p. 365-6 by Srila Bhaktisiddhanta)

[Sonic Yogi]

The inconceivably narrow line of demarcation between land and water or the line where land and water meet is called Tata; so also the meeting line of the Cit world or the eternal abode of the Supreme Lord and the Acit world or the region of maya is called Tata. The power of the Supreme Lord displayed at the Tata is known as the Tatastha (lying at the Tata) or marginal power. All the jivas being the display of this power, have the inherent oscillating tendency and capability of going to the Cit or the Acit world. Tata not being a resting place, jivas must go this side or that . . . (From an English article by Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura and Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati entitled, Vaisnavism Real and Apparent, 10th paragraph)

[Sonic Yogi]

 

Sridhara Maharaja: A jiva soul has adaptability of both sides; marginal means "endowed with adaptability towards both the spiritual and material worlds without participation or any experience of either."

The marginal soul (tatastha) has only seed adaptability towards both. He is situated in the margin between the spiritual and material worlds, and the margin strictly means that one is in a position to analyze adaptability. He can go towards the spiritual world and he can come towards the material world. The possibility of either is there in potentiality, but he is left to exercise his freedom. Because the soul is a conscious unit, he has free will. Freedom is inseparable from consciousness. A conscious unit and freedom are one and the same. Conscious atom means endowed with freedom. Without freedom, it is matter

[Sonic Yogi]

The symptoms of the rainy season may be compared to the symptoms of the living entities who are covered by the three modes of material nature. The unlimited sky is like the Supreme Brahman, and the tiny living entities are like the covered sky, or Brahman covered by the three modes of material nature. Originally, everyone is part and parcel of Brahman. The Supreme Brahman, or the unlimited sky, can never be covered by a cloud, but a portion of it can be covered. As stated in the Bhagavad-gita, the living entities are part and parcel of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. But they are only an insignificant portion of the Supreme Lord. This portion is covered by the modes of material nature, and therefore the living entities are residing within this material world. The brahmajyoti-spiritual effulgence-is just like the sunshine; as the sunshine is full of molecular shining particles, so the brahmajyoti is full of minute portions of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Out of that unlimited expansion of minute portions of the Supreme Lord, some are covered by the influence of material nature, whereas others are free. [Krsna Book, Ch. 20, Description of Autumn]

[Sonic Yogi]

The all-pervading feature of the Lord which exists in all circumstances of waking and sleeping as well as in potential states and from which the jiva-sakti (living force) is generated as both conditioned and liberated souls-is known as Brahman. (Isopanisad, Text 16, purport)

[Sonic Yogi]

As we have learned from previous mantras, the brahmajyoti emanating from the transcendental body of the Lord is full of spiritual sparks that are individual entities with the full sense of existence. Sometimes these living entities want to enjoy their senses, and therefore they are placed in the material world to become false lords under the dictation of the senses. (Isopanisad, Text 17, purport)

[Sonic Yogi]

As spiritual sparks of the beams emanating from the transcendental body of the Lord, we are all permanently related with Him and equal to Him in quality. (C.C. Madhya-lila 5.22)

[Sonic Yogi]

Some food for thought.

 

Thanks to www.gosai.com for the material.

[primate]

Could it be that material consciousness is a kind of 'frontline' in uncharted spiritual territory? The whole universe is evolving. Therefore, God (the original maintainer of the universe) may be evolving or 'growing'. We may be God’s ‘agents’ (dualism?) or His ‘sensory nerve endings’ (monism?). And once we figure it all out, we are assimilated and our consciousness enters a more advanced state, like a discrete phase-transition from solid into fluid. Still the same basic stuff, but qualitatively different..

[Sonic Yogi]

 

Could it be that material consciousness is a kind of 'frontline' in uncharted spiritual territory? The whole universe is evolving. Therefore, God (the original maintainer of the universe) may be evolving or 'growing'. We may be God’s ‘agents’ (dualism?) or His ‘sensory nerve endings’ (monism?). And once we figure it all out, we are assimilated and our consciousness enters a more advanced state, like a discrete phase-transition from solid into fluid. Still the same basic stuff, but qualitatively different..

Grasshopper.......let me explain......

 

 

S.B. 3.31.20 purport....

 

 

 

The evolutionary process of different types of bodies is something like that of a fructifying flower. Just as there are different stages in the growth of a flower — the bud stage, the blooming stage and the full-fledged stage of aroma and beauty - there are 8,400,000 species of bodies in gradual evolution, and there is systematic progress from the lower species of life to the higher. The human form of life is supposed to be the highest, for it offers consciousness for getting out of the clutches of birth and death. The fortunate child in the womb of his mother realizes his superior position and is thereby distinguished from other bodies. Animals in bodies lower than that of the human being are conscious only as far as their bodily distress and happiness are concerned; they cannot think of more than their bodily necessities of life — eating, sleeping, mating and defending. But in the human form of life, by the grace of God, the consciousness is so developed that a man can evaluate his exceptional position and thus realize the self and the Supreme Lord.

The world is like God's garden.

We start out as seeds.

Then we grow into flowers and eventually give off a sweet fragrance.

 

When the seed becomes a flower, it is no longer a seed.

 

This is shakti-parinamavada of Sri Caitanya.

(transformation of energy)

[andy108]

Sonic Yogi :Well, Krishna has free will to the unlimited degree.

Does that mean he can fall down from being the Supreme Being?

 

andy: Irrelevant.

 

SY: Why does free will necessitate the ability to fall down?

 

andy: In the case of a Jiva, even one who is perfectly fixed up in Krsnaloka, because Prabhupada says so.

 

''Regarding your questions about how and from where did the conditioned souls fall, your first question if someone has a relationship with Lord Krsna on Krsnaloka, does he ever fall down? The souls are endowed with minute independence as part of their nature and this minute independence may be utilized rightly or wrongly at any time, so there is always the chance of falling down by misuse of one's independence. But those who are firmly fixed up in devotional service to Krsna are making proper use of their independence and so they do not fall down." Letter to: Jagadisa

—

Los Angeles

25 April, 1970

70-04-25

SY: Does not Radharani have free will?

 

Or is she a slave?

 

Can Radha fall down?

 

andy: No, reread this portion of Jaiva Dharma. She is the personification of the complete swarupa-sakti or Cit Sakti, all her priciple sakhis are expansions of herself or pure Cit-potency, the characteristics of their independence do not include the capacity to be covered over by Maha Maya's illusion, as do the Jivas.

 

 

"Babaji: No, the cit-sakti is paripurna-sakti, the complete potency of Krsna, and its manifestations are all eternally perfect substances.The jiva is not nitya-siddha, although when he performs sadhana, he can become sadhana-siddha and enjoy transcendental happiness like the nitya-siddhas, eternally perfect beings. All the four types of Srimati Radhika’s sakhis are nitya-siddha, and they are direct expansions (kaya-vyuha) of the cit-sakti, Srimati Radhika Herself. All the jivas, on the other hand, have manifested from Sri Krsna’s jiva-sakti. The cit-sakti is Sri Krsna’s complete sakti, whereas the jiva-sakti is His incomplete sakti. Just as the complete tattvas are all transformations of the complete potency, similarly innumerable atomic, conscious jivas are transformations of the incomplete sakti.

 

SY: Free will does not necessitate the imperfection of fallibility.

In fact, free will and infallibility are both qualities of the nitya-siddhas.

 

andy: You must remember, we are speaking of the Jiva's who are IMBUED with Hladini Sakti, but remain distinct in category from the nitya siddha sakhis, and are considered sadhana siddha Jivas, according to Srila Bhaktivindode.

 

 

Babaji: Srimati Radharani is Sri Krsna’s svarupa-sakti, and the eight principal sakhis are Her first kaya-vyuha (bodily expansions). The other sakhis follow behind as Her further kaya-vyuha. All these sakhis are nitya-siddha; they are svarupa-sakti-tattva, not jiva-tattva. The general sakhis of Vraja – who attained perfection by performing sadhana – follow Srimati Radharani’s eternal associates (parikara), and they are known as sadhana-siddha jivas. Having been imbued with the potency of hladini-sakti, they attained salokya (residence in vraja-aprakrta-lila) with the nityasiddha sakhis of Vraja

 

SY:Such is the version of Lord Krishna.

 

Krishna says his pure devotees are infallible.

 

Why do so many devotees insist that the souls are fallible because they have free will?

 

andy: This is a case of acintya bedhabedha. They have their independence as do all jivas, but due to their perfection of attaining loving service to Krsna, they NEVER use that independence to try to get inferior temporary pleasure from the material deminar ever again. YOU are insisting they are fallible. They are infallible at this point, but still considered Jiva tattva, there is no transformation to become Swarupa Sakti Tattva. It is not necessary.

 

SY: We have free will here but we don't have the free will to create our own planets or fly through outer space.

Free will always has it's parameters.

In Goloka, the parameter of free will does not include the capacity to be overcome by ignorance and fall down from love of Krishna.

 

Free will in Goloka is not the same kind of false free will that living entities in illusion think they have.

 

Andy: It is a paradox. According to the English language, capacity does mean that it can happen. So if the capacity is there, but the choice is never made to fulfill that potential, then there is no spoon is there? He He.

[Sonic Yogi]

 

Sonic Yogi :Well, Krishna has free will to the unlimited degree.

Does that mean he can fall down from being the Supreme Being?

 

andy: Irrelevant.

 

SY: Why does free will necessitate the ability to fall down?

 

andy: In the case of a Jiva, even one who is perfectly fixed up in Krsnaloka, because Prabhupada says so.

 

''Regarding your questions about how and from where did the conditioned souls fall, your first question if someone has a relationship with Lord Krsna on Krsnaloka, does he ever fall down? The souls are endowed with minute independence as part of their nature and this minute independence may be utilized rightly or wrongly at any time, so there is always the chance of falling down by misuse of one's independence. But those who are firmly fixed up in devotional service to Krsna are making proper use of their independence and so they do not fall down." Letter to: Jagadisa

—

Los Angeles

25 April, 1970

70-04-25

SY: Does not Radharani have free will?

 

Or is she a slave?

 

Can Radha fall down?

 

andy: No, reread this portion of Jaiva Dharma. She is the personification of the complete swarupa-sakti or Cit Sakti, all her priciple sakhis are expansions of herself or pure Cit-potency, the characteristics of their independence do not include the capacity to be covered over by Maha Maya's illusion, as do the Jivas.

 

 

SY: Free will does not necessitate the imperfection of fallibility.

In fact, free will and infallibility are both qualities of the nitya-siddhas.

 

andy: You must remember, we are speaking of the Jiva's who are IMBUED with Hladini Sakti, but remain distinct in category from the nitya siddha sakhis, and are considered sadhana siddha Jivas, according to Srila Bhaktivindode.

 

 

SY:Such is the version of Lord Krishna.

 

Krishna says his pure devotees are infallible.

 

Why do so many devotees insist that the souls are fallible because they have free will?

 

andy: This is a case of acintya bedhabedha. They have their independence as do all jivas, but due to their perfection of attaining loving service to Krsna, they NEVER use that independence to try to get inferior temporary pleasure from the material deminar ever again. YOU are insisting they are fallible. They are infallible at this point, but still considered Jiva tattva, there is no transformation to become Swarupa Sakti Tattva. It is not necessary.

 

SY: We have free will here but we don't have the free will to create our own planets or fly through outer space.

Free will always has it's parameters.

In Goloka, the parameter of free will does not include the capacity to be overcome by ignorance and fall down from love of Krishna.

 

Free will in Goloka is not the same kind of false free will that living entities in illusion think they have.

 

Andy: It is a paradox. According to the English language, capacity does mean that it can happen. So if the capacity is there, but the choice is never made to fulfill that potential, then there is no spoon is there? He He.

Well, Andy, I don't accept everything that Srila Prabhupada says as absolute.

When he says things that aren't unanimously supported by the shastric version, I just see it as methaphor or what is called parokshavada - the telling of tales to teach a lesson.

 

For example, show me anywhere in shastra the motto "back home - back to Godhead" appears.

 

In shastra where it says the jiva "attains" the spiritual world,Srila Prabhupada says they "go home, back to Godhead".

 

Well, he certainly takes his fair share of poetic license in his books.

 

So, if I find Prabhupada saying or writing something that I can't exactly match with shastric statements, I just pass it off as fable and story that Srila Prabhupada felt that the foolish and ignorant people he was preaching to needed to hear.

 

So, "Prabhupada said" is not an absolutism.

As far as that goes neither is "Bhaktivinode said".

 

They preached in terms of what they thought their audience was best suited for understanding even if they sometimes took poetic license in the siddhanta.

 

Ultimately, I just have to piece together the truth as best I can understand it and sort out the myths from the truth.

 

There are myths out there.

Some came from Srila Prabhupada and some from others.

 

I don't feel I need myths.

I can take the cold, hard truth of the shastra and I don't like to be baby fed myths like Aesops fables.

 

So, again "Prabhupada said" is not absolute to me.

It has to match the shastric version.

 

If it doesn't, I just think that Srila Prabhupada was watering things down for the dull-headed followers who were prone to ask him so many dumb questions earning them the myths Prabhupada felt he needed to tell to nuture them along.

 

There is no "Back to Godhead" theme in the shastra that I have ever seen.

 

It is back to Godhead for Srila Prabhupada because I believe he came from up there to do his service.

 

It is "back to Godhead" for Srila Prabhupada.

 

For us it is the first entry.