The jiva is the tatastha sakti

[Sonic Yogi]

 

the wonder of shakti hey...can transform the best of us;).

 

True.

The tatastha jiva is lacking in chit-shakti and hladini-shakti.

The gurus invests the disciples with both these shaktis through siksha and diksha.

 

A tatastha jiva is incomplete in comparison to the liberated souls.

 

The guru completes us and gives us the power to rise above the marginal plane of consciousness and enter the internal world of love of Krishna.

[bija]

 

The tatastha jiva is lacking in chit-shakti and hladini-shakti.

The gurus invests the disciples with both these shaktis through siksha and diksha.

 

A tatastha jiva is incomplete in comparison to the liberated souls.

I dont know really. I always thought anything that eminates from the complete perfect is also complete in itself.

 

You seem to have a black and white vision of philosophy and tend toward polemics. And polemics produces its own effect...

[Sonic Yogi]

 

I dont know really. I always thought anything that eminates from the complete perfect is also complete in itself.

 

You always thought?

But, does what you always thought match what is stated in shastra?

 

 

SYNONYMS

 

antarańgā — the internal potency; cit-śakti — the spiritual potency; taṭasthā — the marginal potency; jīva-śakti — the living entities; bahirańgā — the external potency; māyā — the illusory energy; tine — all three of them; kare — do; prema-bhakti — devotional service in love.

 

TRANSLATION

 

"The spiritual potency of the Supreme Personality of Godhead also appears in three phases — internal, marginal and external. These are all engaged in His devotional service in love.

 

PURPORT

 

The spiritual potency of the Lord is manifested in three phases — the internal or spiritual potency, the marginal potency, which consists of the living entities, and the external potency, known as māyā-śakti. We must understand that in each of these three phases the original spiritual potencies of pleasure, eternity and knowledge remain intact. When the potencies of spiritual pleasure and knowledge are both bestowed upon the conditioned souls, the conditioned souls can escape the clutches of the external potency, māyā, which acts as a cover obscuring one's spiritual identity. When freed, the living entity awakens to Kṛṣṇa consciousness and engages in devotional service with love and affection.

Sounds to me like hladini and chit shakti are something that has to be bestowed upon the living entity.

 

Bhaktivinode covers the matter in some detail in his books.

 

If we were so complete from the beginning, then how the heck did we end up in maya for billions of lifetimes?

[andy108]

 

Sorry, but you are wrong about that.

That is what a shaktyavesha avatar is - Vishnu manifesting through a jiva.

 

Do some more homework before you jump to conclusions so hastily.

 

Vyasadeva started out as a jiva and then he became an incarnation of Narayan.

So, as far as I am concerned that is Vishnu manifesting through a jiva.

 

SB 4.19.37 purport,

 

So, the only way to become God is by being his devotee.

 

It's amazing what you can learn if you read the books of Srila Prabhupada.

 

 

You twisted what your original point was. You said, and I quote, Visnu can manifest Visnu-tattva through a Jiva.

 

Now you are claiming that the phenomenon of saktavesha avatara is proof that "Visnu can manifest through a Jiva."

 

That was not your original premise. You have read the things I have written. Do you really think I would try to argue that Visnu cannot manifest through a Jiva? That was already a given in this discussion. Insulting my intelligence is beneath you so you must just be in a funk tonight, I understand. If you want sense grad, you aren't gonna get it lording it over me though.

 

 

Purport: Sometimes Lord Viṣṇu appears in His person as Lord Kṛṣṇa or Lord Rāma. All of these appearances are mentioned in the śāstras. Sometimes He appears as a śaktyāveśa-avatāra like Lord Buddha. As explained before, these śaktyāveśa-avatāras are incarnations of Viṣṇu's power invested in a living entity. Living entities are also part and parcel of Lord Viṣṇu, but they are not as powerful; therefore when a living entity descends as an incarnation of Viṣṇu, he is especially empowered by the Lord.

.....................When King Pṛthu is described as an incarnation of Lord Viṣṇu, it should be understood that he is a śaktyāveśa-avatāra, part and parcel of Lord Viṣṇu, and is specifically empowered by Him. Any living being acting as the incarnation of Lord Viṣṇu is thus empowered by Lord Viṣṇu to preach the bhakti cult. Such a person can act like Lord Viṣṇu and defeat demons by arguments and preach the bhakti cult exactly according to the principles of śāstra

 

Incarnations of Visnu's power invested in a living entity means what it says. It does not mean Lord Visnu transforms a Jiva into Visnu tattva, or gives the Jiva all his potencies, which would make the Jiva equal in quantity to whatever Visnu was doing the empowering, which by the way could be KRSNA. Saktavesha avatara = Sakti Tattva = empowered Jiva. Not Visnu Tattva. He is especially empowered with some potency or potencies by some Visnu tattva. There is a difference. And if you need the proof, just reread the purports I have been posting on this thread.

 

Then I don't know, chant 2 rounds and come on back in the morning?

[Sonic Yogi]

 

 

Incarnations of Visnu's power invested in a living entity means what it says. It does not mean Lord Visnu transforms a Jiva into Visnu tattva, or gives the Jiva all his potencies, which would make the Jiva equal in quantity to whatever Visnu was doing the empowering, which by the way could be KRSNA. Saktavesha avatara = Sakti Tattva = empowered Jiva. Not Visnu Tattva.

 

Ok, I get it.

You left your reading glasses at the office?

[Beggar]

I remember Srila Sridhar Maharaja saying that it is very difficult to understand dhama tattva, guru tattva and Siva tattva. So it is very hard to understand this subject matter. What makes us think that this subject matter is something that bhaktas proper spend their time arguing about? Is such an activity aradhanam or aparadhanam? Isn't the answer obvious?

[Sonic Yogi]

 

Narayana Maharaja says some wacky things in that lecture, as he usually does,

Shiva, your arrogance and conceit are totally off the chain.

You really need to get your head out of your anal sphincter and show a little respect where respect is due.

 

I have resolved to rectify my offenses to Narayana Maharaja and if you were as smart as you would like to presume to be you would too.

 

You are an insect compared to Narayan Maharaja.

The sooner you realize that the better off you will be.

 

Narayana Maharaja has a right to differ from Prabhupada.

 

Anybody with eyes can look around ISKCON and see that it is far from perfect.

 

I have come to give Narayan Maharaja his due respect and afford him the right to his own opinion.

 

If you think you are in a position to judge Narayana Maharaja I would just say that you must have really fried your brain on LSD are are suffering permanent hallucinations.

 

I read your story.

 

I know you saw Krishna in the form of a hologram and he looked just like Michael Jackson.

 

So, at this point, your opinion has no value to me.

[andy108]

 

Ok, I get it.

You left your reading glasses at the office?

 

In your stubborn, obstinate pride, you can only give an ad-hominem attack after being proven wrong. Is it that difficult for you to just admit you were wrong?

 

You cannot reproduce any sastra to back up your original statement, that very statement which I reproduced, that very statement you changed later to match some sastra.

 

You are either too stuck up to think I may have caught your mistake and didn't even bother to check back to the original thing you said, or you are just prevaricating to save your self image, hoping no one else will check on you.

 

Admitting you are wrong is like putting a pick axe to the stone around your heart. It must be done. Otherwise you can read til the cows come home, think you know something, but the stone like lens distorts what you read for your own purposes. I like to think you are better than that and just having a bad hair day, but the jury is still out on that one.

[Sonic Yogi]

 

In your stubborn, obstinate pride, you can only give an ad-hominem attack after being proven wrong. Is it that difficult for you to just admit you were wrong?

 

You cannot reproduce any sastra to back up your original statement, that very statement which I reproduced, that very statement you changed later to match some sastra.

 

You are either too stuck up to think I may have caught your mistake and didn't even bother to check back to the original thing you said, or you are just prevaricating to save your self image, hoping no one else will check on you.

 

Admitting you are wrong is like putting a pick axe to the stone around your heart. It must be done. Otherwise you can read til the cows come home, think you know something, but the stone like lens distorts what you read for your own purposes. I like to think you are better than that and just having a bad hair day, but the jury is still out on that one.

 

Well, your claim that shaktyavesha avatars are "shakti-tattva" is totally bogus.

Shaktyavesha avatars are incarnations of Vishnu.

If you bothered to read the shastra I wouldn't have to be here telling you that.

 

Show me anywhere in shastra that Shaktyavesha avatars are shakti tattva.

You can't.

 

It's just something you made up to try and defend your lack of knowledge of shaktyavesha avatars.

[andy108]

This is going to hurt me as much as it will hurt you. Well maybe you more, depending on which side of the bed you woke up on.

 

 

Books : Srimad-Bhagavatam : Canto 4: "The Creation of the Fourth Order" : SB 4.15: King Prthu's Appearance and Coronation : SB 4.15.6 : PURPORT :

In Bhagavad-gītā the Lord says that whenever one sees an extraordinary power, he should conclude that a specific partial representation of the Supreme Personality of Godhead is present. There are innumerable such personalities, but not all of them are direct viṣṇu-tattva plenary expansions of the Lord. Many living entities are classified among the śakti-tattvas. Such incarnations, empowered for specific purposes, are known as śaktyāveśa-avatāras. King Pṛthu was such a śaktyāveśa-avatāra of the Lord. Similarly, Arci, King Pṛthu’s wife, was a śaktyāveśa-avatāra of the goddess of fortune.

 

Smells like roses to me.

 

More confirmation below.

 

 

Lectures : Bhagavad-gita Lectures : Bg 1: Lectures : Bhagavad-gita 1.13-14 -- London, July 14, 1973 : 730714BG.LON :

 

So jīva-bhūta, we jīvas, we are all prakṛti. Puruṣa is only Kṛṣṇa. All living entities... Viṣṇu-tattva is puruṣa-tattva, and we are śakti-tattva, śakti, energy, marginal energy of Kṛṣṇa. So energy is prakṛti.

[Sonic Yogi]

 

This is going to hurt me as much as it will hurt you. Well maybe you more, depending on which side of the bed you woke up on.

 

 

Smells like roses to me.

 

More confirmation below.

 

 

Lectures : Bhagavad-gita Lectures : Bg 1: Lectures : Bhagavad-gita 1.13-14 -- London, July 14, 1973 : 730714BG.LON :

 

So jīva-bhūta, we jīvas, we are all prakṛti. Puruṣa is only Kṛṣṇa. All living entities... Viṣṇu-tattva is puruṣa-tattva, and we are śakti-tattva, śakti, energy, marginal energy of Kṛṣṇa. So energy is prakṛti.

 

You are missing the point in that purport.

It says that shakti-tattvas are empowered to become avatars.

When the shakti-tattva become shaktyavesha avatar he is then an incarnation of Godhead like Vyasadeva.

 

The shaktyavesha avatars come from the ranks of the shakti-tattva, but when they are empowered avatars they are incarnations of Godhead.

 

Go back and read it again without coloring it with your pink glasses.

 

Yes, jivas are shakti-tattva, but shaktyavesha avatars are incarnations of Godhead.

 

 

Lectures : Bhagavad-gita Lectures : Bg 1: Lectures : Bhagavad-gita 1.13-14 -- London, July 14, 1973 : 730714BG.LON :

 

So jīva-bhūta, we jīvas, we are all prakṛti. Puruṣa is only Kṛṣṇa. All living entities... Viṣṇu-tattva is puruṣa-tattva, and we are śakti-tattva, śakti, energy, marginal energy of Kṛṣṇa. So energy is prakṛti.

 

 

So, if being shakti-tattva means incarnation of Godhead then we are all incarnations of Godhead according to the statement above.

[andy108]

 

You are missing the point in that purport.

It says that shakti-tattvas are empowered to become avatars.

When the shakti-tattva become shaktyavesha avatar he is then an incarnation of Godhead like Vyasadeva.

 

The shaktyavesha avatars come from the ranks of the shakti-tattva, but when they are empowered avatars they are incarnations of Godhead.

 

Go back and read it again without coloring it with your pink glasses.

 

Yes, jivas are shakti-tattva, but shaktyavesha avatars are incarnations of Godhead.

 

 

 

So, if being shakti-tattva means incarnation of Godhead then we are all incarnations of Godhead according to the statement above.

Kshami, incarnation of Godhead does not equal Visnu tattva no matter how much sophistry you employ in hopes to make it so.

 

A member of the Visnu tattva is the one empowering or giving or lending a limited amount of His potency to the Jiva, thus enabling it to do the saktyavesa thing.

 

Below Srila Prabhupada speaks DEFINITIVELY to the point.

 

***snip from full explanation below***

 

"So śaktyāveṣa avatāra is not viṣṇu-tattva. He is jīva-tattva."

 

Conversations : 1974 Conversations : April, 1974 : Morning Walk -- April 6, 1974, Bombay : 740406mw.bom :

Prabhupāda: Yes, there are different types of śaktyāveṣa avatāra. So when an ordinary jīva is specially empowered, he is called śaktya aveṣa avatāra, śatktyaveṣa avatāra, vibhūti. Yad yad vibhūtimat sattvam. He is living entity, but especially empowered. Just like for certain business I give sometimes somebody power of attorney, that "He will do this. He will sign for me." Like that. He is also one of the disciples, but for particular purpose, he is given the power of attorney. In this way when a living entity is empowered specifically to do something, that is called śaktyāveṣa avatāra. Aveṣa avatāra. Kṛṣṇa śakti vinā nāhe nāma pracāra. That is explained in the... These are explained in the Caitanya-caritāmṛta. [break] ...śaktya. Mama tejo-'ṁśa-sambhavam. So śaktyāveṣa avatāra is not viṣṇu-tattva. He is jīva-tattva. So the Lord Jesus Christ or Lord Buddha, they come within the jīva-tattva especial power.

 

 

 

Hare Krsna