Narasingh Posted January 23, 2009 Report Share Posted January 23, 2009 There Is No God by Penn Jillette November 21, 2005 · I believe that there is no God. I'm beyond atheism. Atheism is not believing in God. Not believing in God is easy -- you can't prove a negative, so there's no work to do. You can't prove that there isn't an elephant inside the trunk of my car. You sure? How about now? Maybe he was just hiding before. Check again. Did I mention that my personal heartfelt definition of the word "elephant" includes mystery, order, goodness, love and a spare tire? So, anyone with a love for truth outside of herself has to start with no belief in God and then look for evidence of God. She needs to search for some objective evidence of a supernatural power. All the people I write e-mails to often are still stuck at this searching stage. The atheism part is easy. But, this "This I Believe" thing seems to demand something more personal, some leap of faith that helps one see life's big picture, some rules to live by. So, I'm saying, "This I believe: I believe there is no God." Having taken that step, it informs every moment of my life. I'm not greedy. I have love, blue skies, rainbows and Hallmark cards, and that has to be enough. It has to be enough, but it's everything in the world and everything in the world is plenty for me. It seems just rude to beg the invisible for more. Just the love of my family that raised me and the family I'm raising now is enough that I don't need heaven. I won the huge genetic lottery and I get joy every day. Believing there's no God means I can't really be forgiven except by kindness and faulty memories. That's good; it makes me want to be more thoughtful. I have to try to treat people right the first time around. Believing there's no God stops me from being solipsistic. I can read ideas from all different people from all different cultures. Without God, we can agree on reality, and I can keep learning where I'm wrong. We can all keep adjusting, so we can really communicate. I don't travel in circles where people say, "I have faith, I believe this in my heart and nothing you can say or do can shake my faith." That's just a long-winded religious way to say, "shut up," or another two words that the FCC likes less. But all obscenity is less insulting than, "How I was brought up and my imaginary friend means more to me than anything you can ever say or do." So, believing there is no God lets me be proven wrong and that's always fun. It means I'm learning something. Believing there is no God means the suffering I've seen in my family, and indeed all the suffering in the world, isn't caused by an omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent force that isn't bothered to help or is just testing us, but rather something we all may be able to help others with in the future. No God means the possibility of less suffering in the future. Believing there is no God gives me more room for belief in family, people, love, truth, beauty, sex, Jell-O and all the other things I can prove and that make this life the best life I will ever have. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Narasingh Posted January 23, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 23, 2009 I think there are some pretty compelling ideas in this essay. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beggar Posted January 23, 2009 Report Share Posted January 23, 2009 Jell-O If he only knew that Gaudiya Vaisnavas couldn't have Jello-O because of gelatin that comes from the collagen inside animals skin and bones he, would weep for their misfortune. The soft-hearted Vaisnavas will weep for the poor animals that are mercilessly slaughtered. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soma Juice Posted January 23, 2009 Report Share Posted January 23, 2009 Believing there is no God means the suffering I've seen in my family, and indeed all the suffering in the world, isn't caused by an omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent force that isn't bothered to help or is just testing us, but rather something we all may be able to help others with in the future. No God means the possibility of less suffering in the future. i understand why many poeple are atheist if their only idea of what god could be limits to the Abrahamic version of god which is rather unlogical as she points out her self. When i think about it i have never heard a serious atheist argumenting why buddhism or hinduism is bad for society, it seems like they only know the religion of their culture.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
primate Posted January 23, 2009 Report Share Posted January 23, 2009 God must exist. At least as the philosophical ‘Origin’. Some of the worst crap in this world may be due to the idea that there is no god, or that you are your own god, and its associated mindset.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bija Posted January 24, 2009 Report Share Posted January 24, 2009 Some of the worst crap in this world may be due to the idea that there is no god, or that you are your own god, and its associated mindset.. Mankind has needed a sense of the sacred throughout its journey...some have called it God. There is no doubt though, we are deeply inter-connected and One. And our existence here on earth as a human family has great potential if sacredness can flourish. Earth can be that sacred place. One Organism... Even the atheist may have a deep sense of sacred and find harmony within that kind of sacred place. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stonehearted Posted January 24, 2009 Report Share Posted January 24, 2009 No surprise here. Penn Jillette is a professional skeptic. Along with coming up with mind-boggling illusions, he also spends much of his energy debunking things. His experience is limited to his senses and mind, and his imagination can't carry him beyond that. Too bad. If he had some experience or association that could shake his faith in matter as all there is, he could be a fun guy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stonehearted Posted January 24, 2009 Report Share Posted January 24, 2009 Here's a link to a talk by Huston Smith, someone who's every bit as smart as Jillette, and who has a lot more experience: http://ethics.sandiego.edu/video/Kenan/Smith/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stonehearted Posted January 24, 2009 Report Share Posted January 24, 2009 And here's a link to audio of a talk on the same subject (Prof. Smith was probably promoting his book of the same title). http://www.gracecathedral.org/enrichment/forum/for_20010128.shtml Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nrsinghadev Posted January 25, 2009 Report Share Posted January 25, 2009 Just turning the tables here for the sake of fun: There Is A God January 25, 2009 • I know there is a God. I'm beyond theism. Theism is believing in God. Believing in God is easy -- you can't prove He’s not there, so there's no work to do. You can't prove that there isn't an elephant inside the trunk of my car. You sure? How about now? Maybe he was just hiding before. Check again. Did I mention that my realization of the word "elephant" entails pure love, retaining the right to disclose or not disclose itself to whoever it wishes, order, pure goodness and being present in everything that exists, whether visible or invisible? Anyone with a love for truth may start with belief or disbelief in God and then look for evidence of God. They need to search for some objective evidence of a supernatural power. Starting with oneself; consciousness, conscious thought, inspiration and motivation are but a few objective evidences of this supernatural power. Since God is smaller than the smallest, bigger than the biggest, and all-encompassing, I am seeing God everyday and everywhere. The origin of life, what came first: the chicken or the egg? The atheists I write e-mails to however, are still stuck at this searching stage. The theism part is easy. But, this "This I Believe" thing seems to be some sort of leap of faith which applies to theists and atheists alike, since both require it to structure their lives accordingly. Since belief alone is not enough to be certain, I'm glad that rather than merely believing, "I know there is a God." Having realized this, it informs every moment of my life. I'm not greedy. I have love for God and that has to be enough. I have no demands at all; my only hope is that He does not reject me. It has to be enough, since it is the most precious thing in this world and the next, and nothing else in this world compares to it. This is say because I feel it, I live it, and it maintains my life. It is unnecessary to beg God for more. Anything in this world is temporary, so any reasonable person would not chase after temporary things. I don't need heaven, wherever God wants me, I’ll be there. I understand that imperfectness is unavoidable in this world, so I won’t lament not having won a huge genetic lottery or lament not getting material joy every minute of the day. It doesn’t matter since the joy obtained from loving God is beyond anything this world has to offer. Knowing there is God or even just believing it, and knowing or believing He is in everyone is a good thing; it makes me want to be more thoughtful. I wouldn't want to cause any harm to anyone in any way. I would have to try to treat not only people, but all other living beings right the first time around. In believing there’s no God, nothing would stop me from becoming solipsistic. After all, if my own deeds are checked only against some ephemeral social imperative which according to time, place and circumstance condones my actions or approves of them, why should I care for that, or anyone or anything but myself? Why do I care for myself? What is the cause of the driving force behind an atheist wanting to do good? If he finds out, he will be an atheist no more. One who truly believes in God’s existence wouldn’t act maliciously towards anyone or anything. Not out of fear of repercussions, but out of love for God. Whether you believe in God or not, you can read ideas from all different people from all different cultures. With God in the center, we can all harmonize and agree on reality, and I can keep learning where I'm wrong. God is bigger than the biggest and smaller than the smallest, so that leaves plenty of room to keep adjusting. As such we can really communicate. In circles like that of the atheists there are people who say, "I have faith in my path, I base my faith on things I can see, hear, touch or smell. These are the only possible facts and nothing you can say or do can shake my faith." That's just a long-winded religious way to say, "shut up," or another two words that the FCC likes less. But all obscenity is less insulting than the myopic, "How I became frustrated with God and remained ignorant by looking for evidence of Him in the wrong way by the wrong means, and so came to deny His existence, means more to me than anything you can ever say or do." So, in this way believing there is no God can stop me from being proven wrong. Believing in God does not stop me from learning something, as God is unlimited and we are never finished with Him. Progressive thought does not stop upon accepting the existence of God. Believing there is God means the suffering I've seen in my family, and indeed all the suffering in the world, isn't caused by an omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent force that isn't bothered to help or is just testing us, but is rather something which we ourselves are at the root of. We are the architects of our own fate. Worship of God means to become eligible to exit this world of suffering in the future, but anyone who likes it here, anyone who likes a life in denial of God is free to stay. Such is His mercy. Believing there is no God gives me more room to engage myself in material things such as family, beauty, sex, Jell-O, succumbing to boundless greed and gluttony with no regard to life, and all sorts of other temporary things that in the end do not amount to anything but grief and suffering and that makes that kind of life a truly wasted opportunity for anyone knowing there is a God. If I put my faith in something as fugacious as material existence, it means my faith is depending on-, and limited to that plane, and is ultimately equally perishable. It can thus be reasonably argued that the position of such a faith is not of a philosophically strong tenure. If all ends at death, and my material exertions have no lasting impact beyond the material plane, and if there is no purpose behind it all other than the short-lived purpose one creates for himself, it becomes factual that all was for nothing, since my offspring and theirs, in fact the whole of humanity and the whole of existence, will definitely and ultimately meet the same end. In light of this frustration, the atheists hope to one day find the means to keep their material bodies ever youthful. The theist understands that he is already an eternal spirit soul, so he doesn’t bother trying to keep his old coat fresh and new; from time to time he simply accepts a new one until he needs one no more. 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Amlesh Posted January 26, 2009 Report Share Posted January 26, 2009 Really cool, Nrsinghadev. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theist Posted January 26, 2009 Report Share Posted January 26, 2009 Really cool, Nrsinghadev. Yes a lot of nice points for sure. Believing in God is a good starting point but it is not very secure. A believer can become a non-believer and vis-a-versa. The secure platform beyond 'believing' is to become a knower of God. When one knows God he becomes indifferent to the barking of atheists. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Narasingh Posted January 26, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 26, 2009 <del>Believing there is no God means</del> the suffering I've seen in my family, and indeed all the suffering in the world, isn't caused by an omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent force that isn't bothered to help or is just testing us, but rather something we all may be able to help others with in the future. This particular perspective is, I think, valid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Narasingh Posted January 26, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 26, 2009 Yes a lot of nice points for sure. Believing in God is a good starting point but it is not very secure. A believer can become a non-believer and vis-aversa. The secure platform beyond 'believing' is to become a knower of God. When one knows God he becomes indifferent to the barking of atheists. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kaisersose Posted January 26, 2009 Report Share Posted January 26, 2009 My post is for fun too, but is true nonetheless. Just turning the tables here for the sake of fun: There Is A God January 25, 2009 • I know there is a God. I'm beyond theism. Theism is believing in God. Believing in God is easy -- you can't prove He’s not there, so there's no work to do. You can't prove that there isn't an elephant inside the trunk of my car. Proving the non-existence of something is impossible because it is not possible to prove a negative. But as a theist, you are stating a positive. Your fun rewrite should be "You cannot prove there is an elephant in your trunk". But then, if you cannot prove a positive claim, such as the existence of an elephant, then your claim is invalidated. It is the same as stating "2 + 2 = 5, but I will not prove it...I just know it". That can only be acceptable for someone who dropped out of school during 3rd grade. Believing there is God means the suffering I've seen in my family, and indeed all the suffering in the world, isn't caused by an omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent force that isn't bothered to help or is just testing us, but is rather something which we ourselves are at the root of. ? Consider a rewrite of your rewrite. The current version is logically untenable. Btw, the original post by the atheist is flawed too. Cheers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kaisersose Posted January 26, 2009 Report Share Posted January 26, 2009 There Is No God by Penn Jillette November 21, 2005 · I believe that there is no God. I'm beyond atheism. Atheism is not believing in God... Breaking it down, 1) I believe that there is no God 2) I'm beyond atheism. 3) Atheism is not believing in God (1) & (2) contradict (3). Cheers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nrsinghadev Posted January 29, 2009 Report Share Posted January 29, 2009 My post is for fun too, but is true nonetheless. Proving the non-existence of something is impossible because it is not possible to prove a negative. But as a theist, you are stating a positive. Your fun rewrite should be "You cannot prove there is an elephant in your trunk". But then, if you cannot prove a positive claim, such as the existence of an elephant, then your claim is invalidated. It is the same as stating "2 + 2 = 5, but I will not prove it...I just know it". That can only be acceptable for someone who dropped out of school during 3rd grade. Consider a rewrite of your rewrite. The current version is logically untenable. Btw, the original post by the atheist is flawed too. Cheers Obviously my post is flawed, which was made extra clear by introducing it with 'for the sake of fun', yet I still disagree with the points you have raised. It was not for nothing that in regards to the elephant analogy I followed up the statement by writing: "Did I mention that my realization of the word "elephant" entails pure love, retaining the right to disclose or not disclose itself to whoever it wishes, order, pure goodness and being present in everything that exists, whether visible or invisible?" Therefore it works both ways inasmuch that, as you can't prove there is an elephant in the trunk, you also can't prove there's not an elephant in the trunk, because you can't apply logic or the material senses to proof or disproof God. Well you can try, but it offers no conclusive evidence. By it's own endeavour, the limited cannot capture the unlimited, that notion is a fallacy. That idea was incorporated in the message, hence your comparison of 2+2=5 misses the mark, as nobody can prove God is there or not by the mere use of material faculties, which are flawed and limited. Use of logic is limited to material matters, and therefore do not apply to transcendental subjects. As far as the 3rd grade school drop-out remark is concerned, it doesn't necessarily have to end with the childish "I won't prove it, I just know it." Since God has the right to conceal Himself from anyone, He doesn't have to conform to the whim and demand of some obstinate disbeliever and reveal Himself to such a person who calls upon Him in a manner like one would order his dog around. Although they could, neither will those who by Guru&God's mercy know God according to their capacity generally give in to the demands of such people, as they harbour feelings of enmity towards their object of affection. Since such a person is opposed to God, he will not have acquired a lot of sukrti, and as such it may be extremely difficult for such a person to ever rise above his disposition. However, if he somehow obtains the grace or even a mere glimpse of a real devotee of the Lord, he will overcome his negative disposition eventually. When he does, if he is sincere in his approach, he will find the proof he is searching for, if he is really interested in finding out actual truth, as it is stated in the Gita that a sincere soul will never be deceived. Just as in class there is theory and practice, so the spiritual paths have a theoretical and practical side. If that person then wants proof, he is to undergo the practical side of a bona fide spiritual path to his taste and practice and surely he will find proof of the theory according to his capacity, endeavour and type of path traversed. As for your final point of contention, it may have been better to replace the words 'Believing in God' into something like 'Knowledge of God', as the underlying thought of it was that when someone has proper knowledge of God, he understands that the jiva is the cause behind his own misery. By going against the grain he creates ripples of suffering in this karmic field of activities. Since such a jiva has no intention to accord to it's inherent nature, God will not interfere with it's limited freedom of choice and so the jiva carries on, sometimes enjoying, sometimes suffering. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rahulhb Posted February 5, 2009 Report Share Posted February 5, 2009 Pure illusion - maya - shes got a tight grip on you Yes family , beauty , but they all go , beauty goes and everyone dies , sad ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kulapavana Posted February 5, 2009 Report Share Posted February 5, 2009 Quote: "Believing there is no God gives me more room for belief in family, people, love, truth, beauty, sex, Jell-O and all the other things I can prove and that make this life the best life I will ever have." - A very natural reaction to repressive semitic religions which only emphasize the benefits of life after death. Unless the religion can give you higher taste and true fulfillment HERE AND NOW you should be suspicious about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kulapavana Posted February 5, 2009 Report Share Posted February 5, 2009 Many religions have been turned simply into mechanism of enforcing arbitrary morality and social order benefiting priests and other 'chosen' people. Thoughtful people often rebelled against such fake religions, turning to atheism. Instead of trying to prove to them the existence of God it is better to present them with a practical path of self-realization. This is the vedic model. Alas, some people turned this vedic model into another variety of semitic religion - dogmatic, rigid, and purely based on faith and fear. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sonic Yogi Posted February 5, 2009 Report Share Posted February 5, 2009 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyros Posted February 5, 2009 Report Share Posted February 5, 2009 "What is the most wonderful thing?" "Every day hundreds of millions of living entities go to the kingdom of death. Still, those who are remaining aspire for a permanent situation.What could be more wonderful than this?" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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