How it is possible to understand that in the spiritual world there is no past-future?

[Sarva gattah]

How it is possible to understand that in the spiritual world there is no past and future?

When the life force is withdrawn from vessels in/of the mahat-tattva, the vessels simply dissolve. The souls remains, the material elements remain. Since these vessels do not remain permanent, they are simply an illusion. Thus there is no past, nor is there a future in relation to the jiva because the ‘eternal presents’ is its natural perpetual constitution having originated from Goloka. There is only the continuous presence of the souls who experience the eternal presents in Goloka or experience that ‘eternal present’ divided into past, present and future in the material creation.

Question - "How it is possible to understand, that in the spiritual world there is no past and future? For example, if I have drunk a glass of water, it means, that process of drinking has remained in the past!

This process cannot be all time in present time?!… Even if this process will occur in the spiritual world, if I have jumped in water or I sit down on a chair, this action has already come to pass, that is remains in the past. How these actions can be all time in present time? Please, explain to me it is in the detailed image!”

Hari Sauri prabhu explains - "Understanding time is very difficult however, here are a few observations that may help get a better understanding.

Time is the force by which everything in the material world changes. It is the ultimate master of all living beings. It moves everything, and when there is no influence of time, there is no movement, nor variety:

SB 3.26.10

The Supreme Personality of Godhead said: The unmanifested eternal combination of the three modes is the cause of the manifest state and is called pradhana. It is called prakrti when in the manifested stage of existence.

PURPORT by Srila Prabhupada

The Lord points out material nature in its subtle stage, which is called pradhana, and He analyzes this pradhana.

The explanation of pradhana and prakrti is that pradhana is the subtle, undifferentiated sum total of all material elements. Although they are undifferentiated, one can understand that the total material elements are contained therein.

When the total material elements are manifested by the interaction of the three modes of material nature, the manifestation is called prakrti. …

The actual explanation of pradhana, however, is given here: when the cause and effect are not clearly manifested (avyakta), the reaction of the total elements does not take place, and that stage of material nature is called pradhana.

Pradhana is not the time element because in the time element there are actions and reactions, creation and annihilation. Nor is it the jiva, or marginal potency of living entities, or designated, conditioned living entities, because the designations of the living entities are not eternal.

One adjective used in this connection is nitya, which indicates eternality. Therefore the condition of material nature immediately previous to its manifestation is called pradhana.”

“In the Third Canto of Srimad-Bhagavatam Lord Kapiladeva teaches that the material nature originally exists in an inert state of equilibrium called pradhana.

When Lord Visnu casts His potent glance in the form of kala, or time, material interactions take place, culminating in the variegated creation of the material cosmos.

“In this verse it is stated that at the end of universal time the same kala that originally incited the female nature into manifestation again withdraws the cosmos into its original state of inert nonmanifestation.

According to Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura, the time potency itself, kala, is then withdrawn, and it merges into the Supreme Soul, who manifests Himself as the original cause of material nature (anadir adir govindah sarva-karana-karanam [bs. 5.1]).”

[end quote]

What we understand as time is really a figment of our imagination in the sense of there being a past, present and future.

We tend to ‘measure’ time by observing the changes that it causes to our bodies and the surrounding environment. However, the soul is fixed and immutable and does not change, so for the soul there is no past or future, only the present, or rather his own presence.

Material elements also do not change.

Different states of energy cannot be either created or destroyed and in their fundamental states they remain the same.

Material elements are the energy of the Supreme Lord and are therefore eternal. The only thing that does change are the combinations of material elements into various forms.

These combinations are provided so that the individual living beings can fulfill their various desires.

It is the presence of a living force within these combinations of matter give them the appearance of life.

When the life force is withdrawn, the forms simply dissolve. The souls remain, the material elements remain. Since these forms do not remain permanently, they are simply an illusion.

Thus there is no past, nor is there a future. There is only the continuous presence of the souls, and the material elements.

Time in the material world is the force that moves the individual soul from one situation to another in search of fulfillment of his desires.

Time is the supreme regulator. Time is Krsna. What we call time is simply the influence of Krsna without realization of His person. Srila Prabhupada describes time as the impersonal energy of the Supreme Lord.

In the spiritual world, Krsna is continuously present to His parts and parcel living entities.

He dominates everything, He is everything. Time, or the sense of being, is therefore simply the sense of Krsna’s personal presence and one’s relationship with Him, and nothing more.

Since Krsna is eternal and the soul is eternal, there is no past nor any future but simply the loving exchanges between Krsna and His devotees which are endless in their variety.

The forms in the spiritual world are all spiritual. They are eternal, and yet they can change. How they can change was described by Srila Prabhupada in a talk given in Melbourne on May 20, 1975:

[primate]

 

... Time is the supreme regulator. Time is Krsna. What we call time is simply the influence of Krsna without realization of His person. Srila Prabhupada describes time as the impersonal energy of the Supreme Lord. ...

 

Our sense of time seems to be a function of consciously perceived ongoing irreversible material change. Time doesn’t seem to exist as an independent aspect of reality. Time is just a concept to describe material change with. Could it be that the impersonal energy of Krishna then is: 'inducing ongoing irreversible material change'?

[Sonic Yogi]

Jim Croce - Time in a Bottle.....

 

 

If I could save Time in a bottle

The first thing that I'd like to do

Is to save every day

'Til Eternity passes away

Just to spend them with you

If I could make days last forever

If words could make wishes come true

I'd save every day like a treasure and then,

Again, I would spend them with you

CHORUS:

But there never seems to be enough time

To do the things you want to do

Once you find them

I've looked around enough to know

That you're the one I want to go

Through time with

If I had a box just for wishes

And dreams that had never come true

The box would be empty

Except for the memory

Of how they were answered by you

[Sonic Yogi]

[Sonic Yogi]

[primate]

Very nice Sonic Yogi

[Beggar]

 

 

 

 

 

[Sonic Yogi]

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[Sonic Yogi]

[Sonic Yogi]

[Beggar]

How to become detached from American Women:

 

 

 

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5:25

 

 

 

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[Sonic Yogi]

[Lotusflower]

Time out.

 

i think Sp purport is mind blowing. Pradhana, nobody can explain it better.

[Sonic Yogi]

The flaw in the first post of this topic presumes that there is no past or future in the spiritual world but that there is a "present" time.

 

If people would just read the books of Srila Prabhupada they would also find that Srila Prabhupada says there is no past, PRESENT or future in the spiritual world.

 

So, the answer of Hari Sauri is flawed in that he is working off the premise that there is only "PRESENT" time in the spiritual world when in fact there is not PRESENT time in the absolute because time has no effect in the spiritual world.

 

The spiritual world is divided by the different lilas of the Lord, not by time.

So, there is no past lila, present lila or future lila because all the lilas are going on eternally.

 

So, obviously, Hari Sauri is also confused as he operates on the notion that there is a "PRESENT" time in the spiritual world when in fact there is NOT.

 

There is no material time there.

There is no PRESENT time either.

 

Put that in your pipe and smoke it.

 

There is no past lila, present lila or future lila in the spiritual world.

They all exist simultaneously eternally.

 

That is why the conception of time does not exist in the spiritual world.

[bija]

 

So, there is no past lila, present lila or future lila because all the lilas are going on eternally. by sonic

 

excellent. top realization worth contemplating.

[Sonic Yogi]

In fact, even the title of this thread shows that Sarva-gattah (who seems to be linked with Hari Sauri das somehow) leaves out PRESENT time in the question as he has done before on this subject because Sarva in fact is under the misconception that there is PRESENT time ONLY in the spiritual world.

 

 

How it is possible to understand that in the spiritual world there is no past-future?

 

As he has done before on this subject, Sarva has excluded PRESENT time as an element of the time factor that is missing in the spiritual world.

 

He in fact thinks that in the spiritual world there is only PRESENT time, when in fact even PRESENT time does not exist in the spiritual world.

[primate]

Lila literally means pastime. If the concept of time is only relevant in material consciousness, then why is it used to describe the nature of the spiritual world? My point is that time doesn’t exist as a dimension of reality at any level. Only (beginningless) irreversible material change exists, which produces an illusion of time in material consciousness. In spiritual consciousness, even change may be absent because ultimately everything exists simultaneously. The illusion of time may be what distinguishes material consciousness from spiritual consciousness. Time may be derived from our limited (ignorant) material perception of reality.

 

So, instead of stating that time is the impersonal energy of Krishna, it may be better and more fundamental to state that conscious perception of irreversible material change is the impersonal energy of Krishna. At least to me, this would make the big picture more consistent and understandable..

[Sonic Yogi]

 

Lila literally means pastime. If the concept of time is only relevant in material consciousness, then why is it used to describe the nature of the spiritual world?

Lets look at the Sanskrit dictionary and see what "lila" means.

 

 

<table cellspacing="3"><tbody><tr><td valign="top" align="right">1</td> <td valign="top"> lIlA</td> <td valign="top">f. (derivation doubtful) play , sport , diversion , amusement , pastime MBh. Ka1v. &c. ; mere sport or play , child's play , ease or facility in doing anything ib. ; mere appearance , semblance , pretence , disguise , sham Ka1v. Katha1s. Pur. (ibc. sportively , easily , in sport , as a mere joke [903,3] ; also = %{lIlayA} ind. for mere diversion , feignedly) ; grace , charm , beauty , elegance , lovelniess Ka1lid. Katha1s. Ra1jat. ; (in rhet.) a maiden's playful imitation of her lover , Dalar. Sa1h. Prata1p. ; a kind of metre (4 times $) Col. ; N. of a Yogini HParis3.</td></tr></tbody></table>

Traditionally, in Sanskrit language "lila" means "play" or "sport" or "amusement".

 

Why Srila Prabhupada used it in terms of "pastime" is somewhat of a mystery because of all the emphasis on the fact that the lila of Krishna is beyond time and devoid of the time factor.

 

I prefer the meanings of "play" or "sport" or "amusement" over the translation as "pastime" which can be confusing for those who think of Krishna lila as devoid of any time factor.

[Sonic Yogi]

Then again. pastime doesn't necessarily have to indicate something to do with time itself.

As we see in dictionary, it can also just indicate recreation, amusement or sporting.

 

 

pas⋅time

 

>  /ˈpæsˌtaɪm, ˈpɑs-/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [pas-tahym, pahs-] Show IPA Pronunciation

–noun something that serves to make time pass agreeably; a pleasant means of amusement, recreation, or sport: to play cards as a pastime.

[Beggar]

Any way the word is lila and pastime is just a crude English word. When I think of the word pastime, I wonder if there the cowherd boys have a seventh inning stretch when watching Krsna kill the demons, see what I mean?

You know, was watching Krsna kill the demons, Vrndavana's favorite pastime?

Did the coming of the Autumn Season signify the Annual Fall Classic? If you just stick with the word, lila, then you don't these strange English word associations.

[Beggar]

[Shakti-Fan]

 

 

 

 

 

The Spiritual Sky or it's other word 'the Brahmajyoti' is full of Spiritual Vaikuntha planets howver, within that same Spiritual Sky or Brahmajyoti, is the mahat tattva creation of Maha Vishnu.

 

Only on the IN the mahat-tattva can the impersonal aspect of the Brahmajyoti exist.

 

Technically, the entire mahat-tattva is impersonal.

 

One can only enter it as a bodiless consciousness after the living entity sub-consciously leaves THRIR REAL BODY in Goloka and is projected from their that bodily form in Goloka tp their mistaken non-Krishna conscious DREAMS

 

The nitya-baddha-jiva is actually a formless individual until Maha Vishnu provides such ‘consciousness’ a bodily vessel.

 

The Mayavadis or impersonalists cannot understand this. All they see is the mahat tattva amd the formles spark of conscious. This is due to denying the fact THAT there is Goloka and that perpetual IS the origin of ALL nitya-siddha or marginal living entities - This is called PERSONALISM

 

I have intensly searched Prabhupada's Books, letters, lectures and morning walks and found statements others were not aware of about how we came down from Vaikuntha, not as our Spiritual body, but rather as a sub-conscious projection called the baddha-jiva.

 

Srila Prabhupada: You are already in the spiritual sky, but you are simply covered. Just like the sun is already there. You are also already there…so actually we are always in the spiritual world. But when you forget Krishna by the cloud of illusion that is material. Try to understand”. From a Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture given in London, on July 30, 1971

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Srila Prabhupada - “Actually we are not fallen therefore, at any moment we can revive our Krishna consciousness. As soon as we understand that, “I have nothing to do with. I am simply Krishna’s servant. Eternal servant. That’s all.lecture Tokyo Japan 1972: Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 2.9.1

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Srila Prabhupada - “You are eternally liberated (nitya-siddha) but since we have become conditioned on account of our desire to enjoy materialistic way of life, from time immemorial, therefore it appears that we are eternally conditioned (nitya-baddha)” Letter to Aniruddha, dated November 14, 1966

 

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This place of ‘the dreaming’ is called the PERISHABLE mahat-tattva that is a real phenomenon in one cornor of the Spiritual Sky yet is temporary. "This material creation is the spirit soul's dream, all existence in this world is the dream of Mahā-Viṣṇu" .4.29.83.

 

[Beggar]