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[Kulapavana]

 

Bhakti Yoga 101.

 

The first limb of devotional SERVICE is HEARING.

 

Thank you for the lecture, but you misunderstood my point. Some people have no taste for the hearing Krsna-katha. Do you find that strange to accept? That is where sadhu-sanga comes in: associating with nice devotees inspires people to hear. Associating with not-so-nice devotees inspires people to run for the hills.

 

You judge by the results.

[bija]

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*for the ancient mariner:cool:

[andy108]

 

If you think that the association of regular devotees is not sadhu-sanga, that is your loss.

 

I like to associate with devotees of all kinds, provided that they are not envious or offensive to other Vaishnavas. Others I respect and avoid.

 

<!-- / message -->Regular devotee? Sounds like a term you made up. Never saw any authority use that term. Interesting how you equate the term regular devotee with someone who does not accept a key perspective and instruction of a Maha-Bhagavat Acarya. What parampara are you from?

 

How do you equate the standard I hold for a devotee with something that excludes anyone regular? Maybe that is why no acarya has ever used the term regular devotee as a delineator of class.

 

Regularly, the terms neophyte, intermediate, advanced, and NON-devotee or PSEUDO-devotee are used for such purposes.

 

Now if you meant to say neophyte, there is a broad range there.

 

There are neophytes who are chaste, adhere to instructions, and don't speculate above their paygrade, and only offend themselves by inattentive chanting.

 

There are neophytes who are maverick, both envious and offensive, but nonetheless remain in due of a certain respect from a distance due to their chanting the holy names in some capacity.

 

Those who would seek out the latter group of neophytes as Sadhu-Sanga will get a certain result that is not so enviable.

 

Unless they are more advanced, and are seeking their association to uplift them. That is virtuous, but not so easy.

 

So did that little lecture help you see where you are coming from?

[andy108]

 

Thank you for the lecture, but you misunderstood my point. Some people have no taste for the hearing Krsna-katha. Do you find that strange to accept? That is where sadhu-sanga comes in: associating with nice devotees inspires people to hear. Associating with not-so-nice devotees inspires people to run for the hills.

 

You judge by the results.

 

I see where you are coming from, but from the origin of this topic to the point you came in, we were way past the point where the querant (Theist) was exposed to Sadhu-Sanga.

 

Your first comment was that his legs might be weak because he is lacking service. That was a good point I springboarded off to show how without the other parts of the social body of devotees engaged nicely, the head oriented folks among us will feel a little stymied in progressive devotional service.

 

Then you jumped in toward the end of the conversation, adding in response to my statement that service begins with hearing..

 

First you have to get to the point where you want to serve. People were inspired to serve because they were exposed to the sadhu sanga. If we associate with other devotees the service atitude arises in our heart.

 

 

As if a person does not want to hear Krsna kattah, without first getting warm and fuzzy with some nice people (what you call Sadhu-sanga). But if a person comes upon REAL sadhu-sanga, their first experience IS HEARING. Of course it helps if they are nice respectful people, but you can find lots of them anywhere, and not necessarily speaking Krsna kattah right? If it tastes good (and the people are nice) they are back for more. If not they "run to the hills", (and perhaps just read Prabhupada's books.) Simple right?

 

Theist has been serving for many years by faithful hearing and chanting. Just hitting a plateau lately, a bump in the road. I say the gap preventing his ability to get his legs under him is from a patch or two of "faulty hearing" where he missed some instruction that was relevant to his progress in integrating with a society of devotees. Or creating one.

 

And he is associating with devotees here, on this forum.

 

Your last statement was a bit non-sequitur, and I thought a bit vague considering all that was spoken previously.

 

He already has a service attitude or never would have begun his career in devotional service. His theoretical knowledge is not complete, or it would have manifested in practice he would be comforatable with. Just standing around a group of random neophytes is not going to make anything further arise within him. He needs to discover what he may have missed from the lips of the advanced devotee, which I am hoping to point him to as my service to him, and the advanced devotee.

[bija]

 

He needs to discover what he may have missed from the lips of the advanced devotee, which I am hoping to point him to as my service to him, and the advanced devotee. by andy

 

who are you pointing him to?

[andy108]

The only one I know who I am sure is rati keli siddha. Advanced is an understatement. H.D.G. A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada.

[jeffster]

Sonic Yogi,

What kind of car is that ?

jeffster/AMd

[Beggar]

There may or may not be anyone currently on the planet who is rati keli siddha. But as the old saying goes, "it takes one to know one". The rest of logic starts from there.

[AncientMariner]

This thread is basically going to turn into one of the staple arguments in this time period of Vaisnava history where one group says you have to associate with so and so and if you do not you are going to burn eternally in Vaisnava hell and both groups are going to argue endlessly over who is and who isn't a Vaisnava and what exactly constitutes association. Anyone who doesn't agree with whichever side is going to be called bogus by the other side. Seen it all a million times.

[andy108]

"burn eternally in Vaisnava hell"

 

It has been very cold were I live and a little humdrum.

 

Wouldn't mind taking a little vacation there, I got sunblock.

 

Oh wait, I get it, you mean ALACHUA FLORIDA.

[AncientMariner]

 

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*for the ancient mariner:cool:

 

 

 

Right on. Love it brother!

 

 

I was listening to a very intelligent Indian Chief from the Lakota Sioux on Alex Jones Show the other day and he was saying how stupid the American people are for letting the International bankers pull their scams on them and now the American people are going to experience what it was like to be a Native American. It looks like karma is gonna be a bitch for us Americans. Running for the Hills doesn't sound like too bad of an idea especially as the power of the Federal government continues to expand unless people wake up from their stupor. Problem is nowadays even the hills are watched by satellite.

[bija]

 

...now the American people are going to experience what it was like to be a Native American.

sounds like a double-sided prophecy. on the good side, maybe the meek will live well.

 

couple of good friends are still playing the metal...after a rest they are gigging again soon. man, if these boys keep at it they will out do the rolling bones...22 years on now. We were 16 when we first started gigging the pub circuit, now we are middle-aged half grumpy old men:eek4:. but yes ancient..maiden rock. never let a fundie talk you into throwing out art...ever again.

[theist]

The way I see sadhu sanga is basically as Andy describes it. Even when in the early seventies and I was associating with neophytes daily I considered myself to be associating with Prabhupada under the aid of their association. Does that make sense the way I stated it?

 

Because Prabhupada and Krishna was somehow always kept in the center even though by a group of beginners I felt blessed and rightly situated. More than that I felt spiritually safe. It was a simpler time.

 

After Prabhupada left (even somewhat before) Iskcon gave up the center (SP) and at that point I could not find sadhu sanga there despite the fact that many devotees were seemingly now more advanced and sophisticated.

 

What would have worked for me was an association of Prabhupada disciples who understood the value of vani and carried on just like Srila Prabhupada was still present, which he was.

 

Instead what popped up was the ritvik phenomenon and their obsession with hating the twilight zone 11 and the GBC, correcting and reclaiming Iskcon etc. and in doing so took their eyes off the heart of the matter.

 

Unfortunate people like me who were too weak to stand on their own quickly fell into a state of disorientation much the riven cloud Arjuna asked Krishna about.

 

Ah but who is to blame for my plight? None other than I myself for trying to keep one foot in maya while trying to plant the other in transcendence. This can also be called being stuck in the land of theory.

 

Which brings us too my present dilemna. Not the first time I have been here with this one. At some point I have to pick up the other foot and take the next step which is internal change of heart.

[AncientMariner]

 

The way I see sadhu sanga is basically as Andy describes it. Even when in the early seventies and I was associating with neophytes daily I considered myself to be associating with Prabhupada under the aid of their association. Does that make sense the way I stated it?

 

Because Prabhupada and Krishna was somehow always kept in the center even though by a group of beginners I felt blessed and rightly situated. More than that I felt spiritually safe. It was a simpler time.

 

After Prabhupada left (even somewhat before) Iskcon gave up the center (SP) and at that point I could not find sadhu sanga there despite the fact that many devotees were seemingly now more advanced and sophisticated.

 

What would have worked for me was an association of Prabhupada disciples who understood the value of vani and carried on just like Srila Prabhupada was still present, which he was.

 

Instead what popped up was the ritvik phenomenon and their obsession with hating the twilight zone 11 and the GBC, correcting and reclaiming Iskcon etc. and in doing so took their eyes off the heart of the matter.

 

Unfortunate people like me who were too weak to stand on their own quickly fell into a state of disorientation much the riven cloud Arjuna asked Krishna about.

 

Ah but who is to blame for my plight? None other than I myself for trying to keep one foot in maya while trying to plant the other in transcendence. This can also be called being stuck in the land of theory.

 

Which brings us too my present dilemna. Not the first time I have been here with this one. At some point I have to pick up the other foot and take the next step which is internal change of heart.

 

 

 

No matter what happens anyone who comes across Krsna Consciousness is fortunate. The more time goes by the more I am seeing this. As one of the great acarayas said there is no loss in this endeavor. I have had times when I wish I could just forget all this stuff because especially with the world population being so completely immersed in maya it seems like an exercise in futility and it feels like you are fighting the whole world but ultimately I keep going back and reading Srimad Bhagavatam over and over because there is just no getting around it that Krsna is interesting and compelling.

[AncientMariner]

 

Jaya Suchandra Prabhu.

 

Posted here a bit in prior years, different user name, style should be mostly the same. Been getting solid with the philosophy, never got hooked into any apa-Iskcon scene, so I am waiting for my purification to get to a sufficient level that Srila Prabhupada will give me a commission, start a sankirtana temple somewhere maybe, invest in a printing press. Til then just hanging on the fringe like all the others who were marginalized into exile by the shysters and hucksters, but don't have the potency to initiate anything substantial on our own, or take back a property and some money to kick start something.

 

It is just a matter of time and patience though.

 

Infiltrated a temple once, and due to Krsna's arrangement was practically running the whole program when the envious caught on to my mood, and brought the whole gauntlet down on me, barely escaped without a fight (literally) and had no chance of winning. The whole thing was just to show me I could do it and train me up a bit, give me a glimpse, and get me out in the nick of time. Next time is for keeps.

 

Hare Krsna

 

 

I wish you good luck and smooth sailing. This is a time when I think people might be more interested in hearing the timeless message of Krsna Consciousness . I even have heard people talking about Krishna on the conspiracy websites I go to. I was reading a forum on prisonplanet the other day about the illuminati and new age philosophy/religion and it was kind of cool when one Christian oriented person said that it is a new age philosphy to think God is in the heart and this lady said that Bhagavad Gita, which was before Jesus, explained how God is the supersoul in the heart. She went on to say the dangerous new age philosophy is those people saying that we are God or we can become God. Was brilliant stuff and a beautiful thing to see this enlightened lady defend Krishna from the ignorance of some of our Christian brothers and sisters and at the same time expose the real dangerous philosophy.

[theist]

 

I wish you good luck. This is a time when I think people might be more interested in hearing the timeless message of Krsna Consciousness . I even have heard people talking about Krishna on the conspiracy websites I go to. I was reading a forum on prisonplanet the other day and it was kind of cool when one Christian oriented person said that it is a new age philosphy to think God is in the heart and this lady said that Bhagavad Gita, which was before Jesus, explained how God is the supersoul in the heart. She went on to say the dangerous new age philosophy is those people saying that we are God or we can become God. Was brilliant stuff.

 

 

Jesus said the Kingdom of God is within you. Anyway there are a lot of devotees out there using the internet to inject krishna conscious ideas into the mass mind.

[AncientMariner]

 

Jesus said the Kingdom of God is within you. Anyway there are a lot of devotees out there using the internet to inject krishna conscious ideas into the mass mind.

 

 

Yes, I have always found the philosphy of Jesus to be beautiful and enlightening unfortunately there are a lot of well meaning Christians that go off on all sorts of strange tangents and in so doing they have ignorant misunderstandings about "Hinduism". Can't really blame these unfortunate Christians as they are conditioned to think this way but it is sad to see when it happens because they are missing out on a lot of really good stuff.

[suchandra]

 

Yes, I have always found the philosphy of Jesus to be beautiful and enlightening unfortunately there are a lot of well meaning Christians that go off on all sorts of strange tangents and in so doing they have ignorant misunderstandings about "Hinduism". Can't really blame these unfortunate Christians as they are conditioned to think this way but it is sad to see when it happens because they are missing out on a lot of really good stuff.

 

Good point, inmates of a prison unfortunately often go against each other. When jivas begotten of the marginal potency - tatastha sakti - forget the service of Krishna they are confined in the mundane prison house, the citadel of Durga. The wheel of karma is the instrument of punishment at this place.

Even when some of these prisoners are about of being released from the material prison house, they still are conscious about their imprisonment and carefully performing their duties for the remaining days.

[Sonic Yogi]

 

 

Even Duke knows that its fruitless to argue over who is saksad hari and who is isn't:

 

Only Hari is sakshad-Hari, because we already confirmed in another topic that the guru is a common jiva.

There ain't no jiva that can be "directly Hari".

Hari is Vishnu-tattva and the guru is shakti-tattva.

 

Right?

 

If we can't be Hari we can a least be Hairy.

 

 

[Kulapavana]

 

As if a person does not want to hear Krsna kattah, without first getting warm and fuzzy with some nice people (what you call Sadhu-sanga). But if a person comes upon REAL sadhu-sanga, their first experience IS HEARING.

 

In case you have not noticed... even after distributing hundreds of millions books all over the world the HK movement is still a very marginal religion, struggling to survive in most places. To me that is a proof that books alone (what you call REAL sadhu-sanga) do not make people Krsna conscious, except perhaps in some rare cases. It takes that physical sadhu-sanga with nice devotees you are berating above to make people Krsna conscious. I have seen it in action over the last 30 years.

 

And IMO this is what Theist needs: he needs to associate and serve with some nice devotees. He needs to do something practical - an engagement in real seva.

[bija]

Such good company is a rare thing to find Kula. So close but so far...

 

I would love to see Theist under the shelter of people like you suggest and and have seen practically. I guess we all yearn for that. I appreciate Theist's constant yearning, coz I feel the same. Maybe to find the treasure of good company will take some time.

 

Infact Kula, Theist is a much more faithful Gaudiya than me...and that faith I admire deeply. And his faith will surely bring the reward in due course...one thousand fold.

 

cya.

[theist]

 

In case you have not noticed... even after distributing hundreds of millions books all over the world the HK movement is still a very marginal religion, struggling to survive in most places. To me that is a proof that books alone (what you call REAL sadhu-sanga) do not make people Krsna conscious, except perhaps in some rare cases. It takes that physical sadhu-sanga with nice devotees you are berating above to make people Krsna conscious. I have seen it in action over the last 30 years.

 

And IMO this is what Theist needs: he needs to associate and serve with some nice devotees. He needs to do something practical - an engagement in real seva.

 

 

LOL no offense Kulapavanna, but I am sure by 'books' andy had the seriously reading (hearing) and following of those books in mind and not just being tricked into buying one on the street.

[andy108]

 

LOL no offense Kulapavanna, but I am sure by 'books' andy had the seriously reading (hearing) and following of those books in mind and not just being tricked into buying one on the street.

 

Good point, and also remember that the majority of books for DECADES have been reduced from Cintamani status due to the altering by fiendish knuckleheads.

 

Firstly though, I wasn't berating anything, just pointing out that the first exposure to sadhu sanga is almost invariably HEARING them speak in some capacity about the Lord.

 

Second of all, I agree that it is POSSIBLE THOUGH UNLIKELY that the first thing a newcomer will come upon is a group of devotees taking prasadam at a sunday feast, and perhaps not at the moment seeming to talk only about Krsna, but they are still Krsna conscious and whatever topic they may be speaking of is certainly linked to their overall mood of Krsna kattah.

 

If they greet the person with warmth, their first impression is "hey a bunch of nice people, lets eat."

 

So, there is this possibility that is indirectly not first HEARING proper.

 

But let's face it, in general devotees are austere to any prajalpa or mundane effort, and MOST OF THE TIME are to be found by the general public busily engaged in Kirtana, arcana, japa, Harinama, in the kitchen cooking bhoga, or BOOK DISTRIBUTION.

 

The new person does not enter the closed door meetings of managers. If there were farms, who just wanders out into someones field at random and strikes up a conversation? And they have no access to the kitchen.

 

Get the point.

 

But I agree, Theist and ALL of us could benefit from increased sadhu sanga. But how does that come? Remember, a strongly brahminical person could create that around them just from reading the books, doing some internet research, and starting their own program. Unlikely but possible.

 

Otherwise I have only met one person who could organize a group of 2 or more new Bhaktas and persuade them to keep to the "military like discipline" (as he called it) of his organizational structure. And that was A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami himself. And he had his hands full correcting the deviations from that program personally, and constantly.

 

So, barring the appearance of a new self-effulgent acarya, it is incumbent on anyone who wishes to revive and restore such a sadhu-sanga to become intimate with the Swami's program of Daiva Vaidhi Bhakti, practice it without deviation, and offer it to others.

 

All other sanga, including just talking with me and me alone on the internet, is of some other character and can offer some limited shadow version only.

 

Better than nothing? Perhaps. Perhaps not.

 

I lay down the law in my own life, and it is following strictly and mixing that with the last vestiges of my mundane attractions.

 

I cannot imagine seeking other company who is not as strict as me about "Prabhupada only", without having to feel the need to call "Horseshit, that is your speculation and I won't follow" time and again.

 

Which means I will continue to lead my own life, and if someone comes along who is as chaste as myself to Srila Prabhupada but has accomplished creating a richer, deeper, more societally inclusive program than I have, I will consider a chance for meaningful subordination and join in and follow more than lead until I find my new place.

 

Otherwise, If the Lord wills, my own situation will purify and grow and attract those who would see something similar in my following of His Vani, and seek to harmonize with me as leader for a spell.

 

It is all based on Love and Trust. In Prabhupada's vani I trust. Anyone else claiming some inspiration to lead differently according to time place and circumstance, as if it has changed that much since Srila Prabhupada left, I will wish them well, but know they are doomed to second rate.

 

Hare Krsna!

[bija]

 

I cannot imagine seeking other company who is not as strict as me about "Prabhupada only", without having to feel the need to call "Horseshit, that is your speculation and I won't follow" time and again.

 

Which means I will continue to lead my own life, and if someone comes along who is as chaste as myself to Srila Prabhupada but has accomplished creating a richer, deeper, more societally inclusive program than I have, I will consider a chance for meaningful subordination and join in and follow more than lead until I find my new place.

straight up...I respect your mood.

 

 

It is all based on Love and Trust. In Prabhupada's vani I trust. Anyone else claiming some inspiration to lead differently according to time place and circumstance, as if it has changed that much since Srila Prabhupada left, I will wish them well, but know they are doomed to second rate.

Keep a crack in your heart open...Krsna may come through a different door oneday...to show you how great he is in sharing with all folk (and their unique circumstances). He is the wisest of the wise.

 

And the humbling for those who think the race is won.

[Kulapavana]

 

...I have only met one person who could organize a group of 2 or more new Bhaktas and persuade them to keep to the "military like discipline" (as he called it) of his organizational structure. And that was A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami himself. And he had his hands full correcting the deviations from that program personally, and constantly.

 

You may also want to add that despite all of his efforts many of his disciples still managed to create some pretty horrible deviations in his presence, let alone after his departure.

 

What does that tell you about the program itself? That despite "military like discipline" it can still be easily abused? That despite providing 'perfect sadhu-sanga' still generated more dropouts than just about any religion I can think of?

 

It also seems to me the demand for 'military like discipline' did more damage than good in our movement, especially when used by crooked leaders we have had over the years. Let Theist tell you how he liked that kind of sadhu-sanga... it did not work for him, and it did not work for most other people.

 

 

..So, barring the appearance of a new self-effulgent acarya, it is incumbent on anyone who wishes to revive and restore such a sadhu-sanga to become intimate with the Swami's program of Daiva Vaidhi Bhakti, practice it without deviation, and offer it to others.

 

All other sanga, including just talking with me and me alone on the internet, is of some other character and can offer some limited shadow version only.

..

 

I was not advising Theist to talk to people on the internet. I was advising him to perform some practical seva in a company of devotees. Washing pots, sweeping the temple, cooking for the Sunday feast... this kind of stuff. Perhaps it has been far too long since you did any of such seva to realize it's value.