Top heavy

[Kulapavana]

 

Otherwise, If the Lord wills, my own situation will purify and grow and attract those who would see something similar in my following of His Vani, and seek to harmonize with me as leader for a spell.

 

Best wishes to you and your preaching program.

[Beggar]

The Prabhupada-only-ites generally have mistaken "As It Is" for certain ideas to exist as

facts such as the same way material scientists ascertain "facts". Part of this was an inevitable reaction to Srila Prabhupada's preaching strategy in the West where even so-called hippies were harboring the scientific analysis of existence. So now many believe that is a "fact" that Krsna is God, and a "fact" that Srila Prabhupada is an uttama adhikari. Generally this conception also includes that no one else who is presently embodied is or even potentially is an uttama adhikari. We also know that more often than not this other worldly viewpoint includes the idea that the jivas originated in Goloka.

[andy108]

 

You may also want to add that despite all of his efforts many of his disciples still managed to create some pretty horrible deviations in his presence, let alone after his departure.

 

Perhaps if you actually read what I wrote you would you would see I addressed that. The statement began with "he had his hands full..."

 

 

What does that tell you about the program itself?

 

Since the program works for me, and keeps so many others at least spiritually alive though treading water on the fringes of the temple/farm properties under sinister control...

 

it tells me more about the degree of notoriously selfish lust and greed of the main players than anything about the systyem itself.

 

 

That despite "military like discipline" it can still be easily abused? That despite providing 'perfect sadhu-sanga' still generated more dropouts than just about any religion I can think of?

 

Again, this speaks to the fact that Swamiji was no facist and did not force anyone. And No more or less than ANY system, can be abused.

 

And that someday, the sincere who are facing their purification trials in exile, on the fringe, are able to by grace come together and cooperate under the perfect program of the acarya, and accept that military like discipline, the results will increase Krsna's glory, and save many new souls.

 

Unfortunately, from the bitterness that is exemplified in your challenging mood, I am not assured you will be a participant in such. It seems you would rather Srila Prahupada had not made an all encompassing system of instructions because "someone might abuse it." A strange but telling notion.

 

 

It also seems to me the demand for 'military like discipline' did more damage than good in our movement, especially when used by crooked leaders we have had over the years.

 

See the last statement of my above response. And I will add you are way off the mark saying "especially when used by crooked leaders."

 

What a twisted logic. You are basically saying his demand for military like discipline was flawed. period. As if it could NOT be utilized for positive results. That is irrational. Perhaps Grandfather Bhisma and Dronacarya should have neglected the miltary discipline they instilled in their charges. Hmmm?

 

 

Let Theist tell you how he liked that kind of sadhu-sanga... it did not work for him, and it did not work for most other people.

 

It doesn't work for anyone in its perverted form. Throwing the baby out with the bathwater doesn't help the baby either.

 

 

I was not advising Theist to talk to people on the internet. I was advising him to perform some practical seva in a company of devotees. Washing pots, sweeping the temple, cooking for the Sunday feast... this kind of stuff. Perhaps it has been far too long since you did any of such seva to realize it's value.

 

What temple do you suggest? Mind you for someone who is chaste to all the instructions Srila Prabhupada gave, it is a current fact on the ground thatmost every temple is not run strictly according to his standard. Most, even your cherished P.V. temple, has a Temple President who is a disciple/cheerleader of an GBC appointed-voted in "Saksad Hari".

 

Granted, Madhuha Das is making a striking and unique gambit at instigating change through a tolerant infiltration, but unfortunately he is shy of support by most of the "go along to get along" fence sitters he is surrounded with.

 

Of course there are a couple ritvik temples with skeleton crews, but they are infiltrated and not so friendly, except!! Brahma Bhuta das had a nice Sunday feast program on Saint Mark's Place in NYC last I checked.

 

In other words, a devotee like Theist has no interest in going to wash pots for some Bogus guru and his fanatic disciples who have stolen Srila Prabhupada's property just to get a chance to watch them wave some inscense and flowers in front of a murti, and use that experience to feel whole. Far from it.

 

However in that vein, perhaps he could get up the inspiration to do his own version of a sunday feast out of his humble abode.

 

Or wait until me and my friends finally get organized. As far as I am concerned, when our program is running, I will invite everyone publicly, I am not afraid of who shows up, because if they are nonsense and want to start trouble they will easily be dealt with, if they are long and lost and been praying for something small but genuine, I will see it in their eyes and welcome them.

 

Til then, I offer commiserating camradarie on the internet, no pie in the sky "come on over and 'do seva' for me and Bhogi Swami, you'll feel better crapola."

[andy108]

 

The Prabhupada-only-ites generally have mistaken "As It Is" for certain ideas to exist as facts such as the same way material scientists ascertain "facts". Part of this was an inevitable reaction to Srila Prabhupada's preaching strategy in the West where even so-called hippies were harboring the scientific analysis of existence. So now many believe that is a "fact" that Krsna is God, and a "fact" that Srila Prabhupada is an uttama adhikari. Generally this conception also includes that no one else who is presently embodied is or even potentially is an uttama adhikari. We also know that more often than not this other worldly viewpoint includes the idea that the jivas originated in Goloka.

So why don't you do something about it? Like follow your "guru of choice'', and show everyone how much of an uttama he or she is by becoming one yourself?

 

You know, become engaged 24 hours in Sankirtana Yajna, control the urge to speak, your genitals, convert many souls to Gaudiya Vaisnavism through your prasadam distribution, literature distribution, daily Harinama, etc.

 

Until then what good is your speculation about what the other big mouth horses are speculating?

 

Except maybe to gain some fame and distinction for your blistering analyses of what trouble the "general" believer in AC Bhaktivedanta Swami's pure divinity is causing themselves and others. Yawn.

[andy108]

 

Best wishes to you and your preaching program.

 

Thanks, unfortunately I am such a rat's ass that it is still not manifest, though I can make a good approximation of preaching on internet forums.

[bhaktajan]

Remember your breakfast of Champions!!!

You are more than an asterisk on the dog-eared footnotes of history.

[theist]

 

Have the pastures been greener since?

 

Gardens and deserts both.

[theist]

It takes two things. A perfect program and the will on the student to follow it. My will to follow was very very weak. I only lasted about six months in the temple.

[theist]

Yes this is a good tilak for me.

 

 

:D:D

[Kulapavana]

 

What a twisted logic. You are basically saying his demand for military like discipline was flawed. period. As if it could NOT be utilized for positive results. That is irrational.

 

I did serve in the military so I can relate to the military discipline. But in the military renegade commanders like K-swami would have been court martialled and possibly shot for treason. Instead Srila Prabhupada forgave him at least a couple of times for very serious transgressions. So you are right - there was no military discipline in Iskcon because it was not a military.

 

Thus there is no reason for you to harp on the point of 'absolute surrender to the supreme program of the supreme commander'. We are a volountary organization based on pragmatic principles of 'judge by the results'.

 

 

 

What temple do you suggest? Mind you for someone who is chaste to all the instructions Srila Prabhupada gave, it is a current fact on the ground thatmost every temple is not run strictly according to his standard.

 

go to any Krsna temple and mop the floor - it will do you more good than all the mental gymnastics you do here on the internet.

 

I know many nice temples with devotees who inspire me to serve Krsna, starting with the one where I live, in Prabhupada Village, NC. We have all sorts of devotees here serving together. It works for me and I like it. That is my standard: judge by the results.

[bhaktajan]

Playing the part of humble incognito wellwisher?

Like Paul Paulsen, and, Jose Jemenez resurrected?

Very interesting.

[andy108]

 

I did serve in the military so I can relate to the military discipline. But in the military renegade commanders like K-swami would have been court martialled and possibly shot for treason. Instead Srila Prabhupada forgave him at least a couple of times for very serious transgressions. So you are right - there was no military discipline in Iskcon because it was not a military.

 

Thus there is no reason for you to harp on the point of 'absolute surrender to the supreme program of the supreme commander'. We are a volountary organization based on pragmatic principles of 'judge by the results'.

 

And those who do not voluntarily accept the full discipline of the supreme program in all its features will not benefit to the furthest degree possible.

 

Or else what are the use of all the instances where Srila Prabhupada spoke of not completing the course of one's devotional service. Of course there is no loss or dimuninition, but one always HAS to start where they left off if they are a sadhana bhakta and not yet siddha.

 

Srila Prabhupada excommunicating, then forgiving, Kswa was always based on Kswa's (at least nominal) resurrender. In the mood of the MahaPrabhus dealing with Jaya and Vijaya, only in this case Kswa was a conditioned soul not a liberated associate.

 

So if you need to use "judge by the result" to indicate that Srila Prabhupada's program was flawed, and it is time for something new, have at it.

 

I believe a more determined sober approach is to blame the result on the degree of sincerity and surrender of the participants, than to claim that the Origin of Sri Guru, Sri Balarama himself, was unable to use a MahaBhagavata to deal out a supreme sadhana program, and now it is up to a conditioned soul to try and clean up his mess.

 

Such a perspective speaks volumes to me about the surrender and sincerety of the one expressing such lack of confidence in the Lord and his initmate servants.

 

 

go to any Krsna temple and mop the floor - it will do you more good than all the mental gymnastics you do here on the internet.

 

I know many nice temples with devotees who inspire me to serve Krsna, starting with the one where I live, in Prabhupada Village, NC. We have all sorts of devotees here serving together. It works for me and I like it. That is my standard: judge by the results.

 

I am judging by your results, and I have not had to strain my mentality gymnastically to do it. Your premise is flawed and anyone with a mundane logical brain can see it. For you to suggest a person to just show up at "any Krsna temple" shows your lack of compassion and concern for what usually happens to people who do. All in the name of defending your half-baked philosophy on why you find fault with a Sampradaya Acarya. Too bad for you, I hope you get better from your illness.

 

Hare Krsna

[Beggar]

 

... All in the name of defending your half-baked philosophy on why you find fault with a Sampradaya Acarya. Too bad for you, I hope you get better from your illness.

 

Hare Krsna

First off the only Sampradaya Acarya in the Gaudiya Vaisnava line is Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu Himself. All Glories to Srila Prabhupada doesn't mean to over-glorify him. Over-glorify in this context means to claim him as Sampradaya Acarya thereby neglecting the actually position of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu whose samkirtan movement, Srila Prabhupada was expert at distributing. To neglect the real position of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu is an offense that the real Srila Prabhupada will not appreciate.

[bija]

does this sampradaya acarya concept mean that followers in other maths or gatherings are missing out on the topmost?

 

time to put the hoof down...or gallop far away...

 

[theist]

Paul? Jose? Man, your body must be as old as mine.

[andy108]

 

First off the only Sampradaya Acarya in the Gaudiya Vaisnava line is Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu Himself. All Glories to Srila Prabhupada doesn't mean to over-glorify him. Over-glorify in this context means to claim him as Sampradaya Acarya thereby neglecting the actually position of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu whose samkirtan movement, Srila Prabhupada was expert at distributing. To neglect the real position of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu is an offense that the real Srila Prabhupada will not appreciate.

 

WHOOOAAHH, Easy there boys.

 

I said "A Sampradaya Acarya."

 

Pushing some buttons there am I? Quit frothing at the mouth, take a deep breath, and read what a guy writes carefully before stampeding all over the keyboard.

 

Or does anyone actually want to claim he is not a Sampradaya Acarya? By some of the comments I have seen today, It is obvious that is the true inner opinion of at least one or two of the participants on this board.

 

And for those who insist that title only applies to Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, then how about we use HDG AC Bhaktivedanta Swami's admonishment to accept the "current link" in the sampradaya. And how he says we MUST understand previous acaryas through the insight of the current acarya we choose to follow.

 

Now go ahead and chew on that bucket of Oats, and let it sink in before responding.

[bija]

Srila Prabhupada: Until these world leaders read my books and take to this Vedic culture, what kind of civilization will they have? Dog race. Horse race. They want this. Rat race. That's all. Their civilization is a race. Dog race. Horse race. Rat race. The citizens do not know anything about this great science of the soul. Modern civilization means that people are simply becoming rascals, animals. Of course, strictly speaking, theirs is a motor race. They have advanced beyond the common dog race to a motor race. But if a doggish person is running not on four legs but on four wheels, does that mean he is not a dog? It is the same race. The same race--whether by running on four legs or on four wheels. The race is the same, and the dog is the same.

So this civilization is a glorified dog race. Modern man does not know, "I may feel proud of racing around in a car, but is there any value if I do not understand the meaning of my life?" Hmm? So this is going on. A big, big highway for dog racing--that is modern civilization.

And when rascal yogis and swamis present their version of the Vedic culture, they say something like, "By this transcendental meditation you will keep your dog race very nice." In reality, these yogis and swamis are bewildered by this materialistic civilization. "Oh, very nice. It is very nice." That's all. In Bhagavad-gita Krishna describes such personalities. Mohitam nabhijanati mam ebhyah param avyayam: "Bewildered by the modes of material nature, fools and rascals do not know Me, who am above the modes and inexhaustible." The modern world is filled with such mudhas, rascals. So, again, the only hope is that you distribute my books as much as possible.

In London there is a big stadium for dog racing. Do you know that? Many people go to see the dogs race.

[bija]

 

And for those who insist that title only applies to Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, then how about we use HDG AC Bhaktivedanta Swami's admonishment to accept the "current link" in the sampradaya. And how he says we MUST understand previous acaryas through the insight of the current acarya we choose to follow. by andy

I think what he means is that Caitanya is the central focus...and the unifying point for us all. Each subsequent acarya will always point to Gaura tattva. Gaura tattva is the goal.

[Kulapavana]

 

For you to suggest a person to just show up at "any Krsna temple" shows your lack of compassion and concern for what usually happens to people who do. All in the name of defending your half-baked philosophy on why you find fault with a Sampradaya Acarya. Too bad for you, I hope you get better from your illness.

 

When was the last time you showed up at Lord Krsna's temple ready to mop the floor for Him? Try it... it will do you a world of good. I say that out of compassion for you and all other keyboard philosophers ready to badmouth anybody who does not fit their standard of purity and devotion.

 

And I am not finding fault with Srila Prabhupada but with those of his fanatic followers who make claims the entire world is laughing at. SP's program was neither fool-proof nor perfect and complete - it was an impressive work-in-progress which accomplished a very significant part of Lord Caitanya's mission. Spiritual life is never static - it must continually grow and evolve. That is why we have guru parampara. The mission SP created must evolve and adapt or it will become dead and irrelevant to people. It will then be replaced with other missions. I can see the signs of that already.

 

You may live in your 1960's time warp but others will only find you completely irrelevant. Every day I talk to new people discovering the precious jewels of Srila Prabhupada, Sridhara Maharaja, Narayana Maharaja, and other great Gaudiya Vaishnavas. This is NOW... deal with it.

[bija]

 

I can see the signs of that already.

last year several people approached me in town and asked 'whatever happened to the Hare Krsna's'.

 

I have said it to you before Kula, the mood you present here is no way offensive in my opinion. It is very sensible and appealing to me.

 

Most people of good sense grow out of their personality cult ideas at some point, and discover a much richer relationship (mature).

 

 

I say that out of compassion for you and all other keyboard philosophers ready to badmouth anybody who does not fit their standard of purity and devotion.

 

Unfortunately people like myself live in their cave and are only brave enough to hang out here online. Maybe that is the bottom line if I was to be honest, why things are inert and just a bunch of words. Suggesting the reason for this, 'oh the leadership is dysfunctional'....what a cop out that can be. A common cop out though.

 

You are right on the ball, some floor sweeping would work wonders. For all us cave dwellers. As you said to me months ago, one on one dealings helps one see themselves clearer. Who knows, such activity might even make some good friends, or even sangha! Sangha has always been a major limb in many eastern paths.

[Beggar]

 

 

 

Krsna Attacks the Kesi Demon

 

 

"After being instructed by Kamsa, the demon Kesi assumed the form of a terrible horse. He entered the area of Vrndavana, his great mane flying and his hooves digging up the earth. He began to whinny and terrify the whole world. Krsna saw that the demon was terrifying all the residents of Vrndavana with his whinnying and his tail wheeling in the sky like a big cloud. Krsna could understand that the horse was challenging Him to fight. The Lord accepted his challenge and stood before the Kesi demon. As He called him to fight, the horse began to proceed towards Krsna, making a horrible sound like a roaring lion. Kesi rushed toward the Lord with great speed and tried to trample Him with his legs, which were strong, forceful and as hard as stone. Krsna, however, immediately caught hold of his legs and thus baffled him. Being somewhat angry, Krsna began to move around the horse dextrously. After a few rounds, He threw him a hundred yards away, just as Garuda throws a big snake. Thrown by Krsna, the horse immediately passed out, but after a little while he regained consciousness and with great anger and force rushed toward Krsna again, this time with his mouth open. As soon as Kesi reached Him, Krsna pushed His left hand within the horse's mouth. The horse felt great pain because the arm of Krsna felt to him like a hot iron rod. Immediately his teeth fell out. Krsna's hand within the mouth of the horse at once began to inflate, and Kesi's throat choked up. As the great horse began to suffocate, perspiration appeared on his body, and he threw his legs hither and thither. As his last breath came, his eyeballs bulged in their sockets, and he passed stool and urine simultaneously. Thus the vital force of his life expired. When the horse was dead, his mouth became loose and Krsna could extract His hand without difficulty. He did not feel any surprise that the Kesi demon was killed so easily, but the demigods were amazed, and out of their great appreciation they offered Krsna greetings by showering flowers."

 

Krnsa Book, Chapter 37

 

Bhaktivedanta Book Trust. Excerpted from text and purport of HDG A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Srila Prabhupada.

 

 

 

 

[Beggar]

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Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakur </center> </td> <td align="center">Cybertemple of the Beautiful Goldenlord

 

Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakur - Killing Demons

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</td> <!--MAIN BODY--> <td valign="top" bgcolor="brown"> <hr color="gold"> <center>Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura

Killing Demons</center> Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura in his Sri Caitanya Siksamrita describes the demons Krishna killed in His Vrndavana pastimes and the anarthas (unwanted things) with which they may be associated.

Putana (the witch) - the pseudo guru.

Sakatasura (the cart demon) - carrying the burden of a cart-load of old and new bad habits, lethargy and vanity.

Trinavarta (the whirlwind demon) - false pride which comes from material scholarship, which leads to bogus philosophies.

Deliverance of Nalakuvara and Manigriva (breaking the twin arjuna trees) - Arrogant pride which comes from puffed-up prestige, which is rooted in a madness for wealth.

Vatsasura (the calf demon) - a childish type of mentality which gives rise to a type of greediness which results in a wicked type of mischievousness.

Bakasura (stork demon) - Cunning duplicity, deceptiveness and false types of behavior.

Aghasura (the snake demon) - Cruelty and violence.

Brahma-vimohana Pastime (Lord Brahma steals the cowherd boys and calves) - mundane activities and speculative scholasticism.

Dhenukasura (the ass demon) - gross materialistic intelligence, ignorance of spiritual knowledge.

Kaliya (chastising the Kaliya serpent) - brutality and treachery.

Extinguishing the Forest Fire - inter-communal discord among Vaishnavas.

Pralambasura (killing the Pralamba demon) - lusty inclinations; desire for personal gain and honor.

Second Forest Fire - disturbance of religious principles and interference with religious people by those who are atheist.

Brahmanas Performing Sacrifice - indifference toward Krishna caused by pride because of one's status (position) in varnasrama.

Overcoming the Pride of Indra - demigod worship, and the tendency to think "I am Supreme."

Nanda Maharaja Captured by Varuna - thinking that spiritual life can be enhanced by intoxication.

Nanda Maharaja Swallowed by Vidyadhara (the snake) - rescuing the truth of Krishna consciousness from being swallowed by the impersonalists.

Sankhacuda (killing the conch-shell demon and getting the jewel that was stolen by him) - proneness toward acquiring name and fame, and desire for sensuous enjoyment, under the plea of devotion.

Aristasura (the bull demon) - pride arising from indulging in false religions invented by cheaters which causes neglect of devotional service (bhakti).

Kesi (the horse demon) - The feeling that "I am a great devotee and spiritual master."

Vyomasura (the demon in the sky) - associating with thieves and other rascals, and with people who put themselves forward as avataras.

Bhaktivinoda Thakura says: "The devotee who worships the holy name should first petition the Lord for the strength to cast out all these unfavorable tendencies and should pray thus before Lord Hari on a daily basis. By doing this regularly, the devotee's heart will eventually become purified. Sri Krishna has killed a number of demons which may arise in the kingdom of the heart, so in order to destroy these problems, a devotee must cry very humbly before the Lord and admit defeat then the Lord will nullify all contaminations."

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[Beggar]

 

 

[bija]

thx for the bvt...was wondering. nasty kesi. glorious whip.

[bija]

the dream!

 

 

with the back toward the light...