Hridayananda is over the edge

[andy108]

 

And perhaps more to the real point than what the ISKCON gurus are doing is what you and I are doing to establish Krishna consciousness. We have no control over them and what they're up to (it would appear), but we do have some control over our own lives.

 

Part of establishing Krsna Consciousness, if one considers themselves a aspiring disciple of HDG AC Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada, is to be vigilant to explain the actions of those who continue to act irresponsibly in his name, misrepresenting him and his mission, usurping (downright stealing) his physical and intellectual properties, and sending/encouraging their cheerleaders to make excuses for their poorly intended miscreance, while trying to divert the energies of those who speak out against the charade in so many ways, such as admonishing that it is more productive for one to mind one's own business after all we only can only change ourselves and not others, or implying they are spending too much time in such activities and not enough time in other more important methods of spreading Krsna Consciousness.

 

Comprende?

[Beggar]

 

Part of establishing Krsna Consciousness, if one considers themselves a aspiring disciple of HDG AC Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada, is to be vigilant to explain the actions of those who continue to act irresponsibly in his name, misrepresenting him and his mission, usurping (downright stealing) his physical and intellectual properties, and sending/encouraging their cheerleaders to make excuses for their poorly intended miscreance, while trying to divert the energies of those who speak out against the charade in so many ways, such as admonishing that it is more productive for one to mind one's own business after all we only can only change ourselves and not others, or implying they are spending too much time in such activities and not enough time in other more important methods of spreading Krsna Consciousness.

 

Comprende?

 

Just don't obsess about...but you do.

[stonehearted]

 

Part of establishing Krsna Consciousness, if one considers themselves a aspiring disciple of HDG AC Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada, is to be vigilant to explain the actions of those who continue to act irresponsibly in his name, misrepresenting him and his mission, usurping (downright stealing) his physical and intellectual properties, and sending/encouraging their cheerleaders to make excuses for their poorly intended miscreance, while trying to divert the energies of those who speak out against the charade in so many ways, such as admonishing that it is more productive for one to mind one's own business after all we only can only change ourselves and not others, or implying they are spending too much time in such activities and not enough time in other more important methods of spreading Krsna Consciousness.

 

Comprende?

Whoa! Yes, sir. Is there an implication in there that I'm some sort of cheerleader for these folks? That's a joke. Ask anyone who actually knows me at all.

 

Now I need to check in to receive my orders.

[andy108]

 

Whoa! Yes, sir. Is there an implication in there that I'm some sort of cheerleader for these folks? That's a joke. Ask anyone who actually knows me at all.

 

Now I need to check in to receive my orders.

 

You seem to err on the side of caution before finding fault and laying blame, but in a case of epic malfeasance and protracted unrepentant progress in their behavior it is a forgone conclusion that anything that happens through the efforts of these rogues that is not preceeded by a heartfelt repentant apology for the entire laundry list of offenses they have perpetrated, however dressed with a mood of tolerance and inclusiveness, is just what it is. Polished nonsense.

 

I sensed equivocation and lack of a sense of gravity in your commentary on this thread, and the rest is history. You are probably not a cheerleader, but certainly seem unwilling to wrestle with the down and dirty truth of the matter.

 

I wouldn't have pricked you so hard if I didn't think it wouldn't goad you to meaningful introspection and increase your realization of the truth. Please don't settle or compromise with these rascals just so you can hang around and give class in the temples where they routinely blaspheme Srila Prabhupada by their very existence, or next time I will be forced to load for Bear.

 

At ease.

 

Hare Krsna

[Beggar]

Who was your favorite?

[andy108]

Beggar said. "Just don't obsess about...but you do."

 

It might seem that way to you, but trust me I don't go out of my way to be exposed to this nonsense, it finds its way to me regardless of where I turn my head these days, and I take it as it comes as a way to serve by glorifying **(an)** acarya, highlighting important principles of sadhana he proposed, exposing the sinister movement whenever it rears its ugly head, through those witting (active) or unwitting (passive) supporters of it, and thereby giving fair warning to innocent passers by.

 

All it takes for evil to flourish is for good people to sit back and pretend it ain't happening.

 

I am compelled. But not obsessed.

[bhaktatraveler]

 

Who was your favorite?

 

 

 

The one in the picture!

[Beggar]

 

The one in the picture!

First, it was a rhetorical question.

Second, It appears that Srila Prabhupada is in a picture in the center.

But is this the real Prabhupada or is like when Ravana stole Sita?

[stonehearted]

 

You seem to err on the side of caution before finding fault and laying blame, . . .

 

I wouldn't have pricked you so hard if I didn't think it wouldn't goad you to meaningful introspection and increase your realization of the truth. Please don't settle or compromise with these rascals just so you can hang around and give class in the temples where they routinely blaspheme Srila Prabhupada by their very existence, or next time I will be forced to load for Bear.

 

Andy, my friend, I'm way ahead of you. I left ISKCON because of their malfeasance in the mid '80s. (I left even before that, moving from Honolulu to the Big Island in 1975, after the fuss over the original Govinda's restaurant--no connection with the "Blessing Ceremony.") I tolerated things for a few years because I felt my gurukula project in Hawaii was important enough. Eventually, though, I gave up, shortly after the 1985 meeting in New Vrindavan.

[Sonic Yogi]

 

The one in the picture!

 

the ONE in the picture is surrounded by scoundrels?

That can't be good.

[stonehearted]

 

the ONE in the picture is surrounded by scoundrels?

That can't be good.

I actually had that impression when I first met Srila Prabhupada, when he came to Honolulu in August of 1970. I had absolutely no doubt that the rest of my life belonged to him from the moment our eyes met. But I had an uneasy feeling about those traveling with him: Kirtanananda, Madhudvisa, Devananda, Karttikeya (all sannyasis), and Tamal. I had a bad feeling that they had some desire to somehow manipulate, control Srila Prabhupada.

[Sonic Yogi]

 

I actually had that impression when I first met Srila Prabhupada, when he came to Honolulu in August of 1970. I had absolutely no doubt that the rest of my life belonged to him from the moment our eyes met. But I had an uneasy feeling about those traveling with him: Kirtanananda, Madhudvisa, Devananda, Karttikeya (all sannyasis), and Tamal. I had a bad feeling that they had some desire to somehow manipulate, control Srila Prabhupada.

 

Yeah, it's is a damn shame that intelligent men like yourself could not have been running ISKCON instead of the scum that floated to the surface.

Why did Prabhupada allow these bums to plunder ISKCON?

I have a theory that Srila Prabhupada actually wanted ISKCON to fragment upon his departure and so he allowed these ambitious fools to get control.

 

I have no doubt Srila Prabhupada wanted to break-up ISKCON upon his demise.

His having Narayana Maharaja perform his funeral guaranteed that.

[bhaktatraveler]

 

First, it was a rhetorical question.

Second, It appears that Srila Prabhupada is in a picture in the center.

But is this the real Prabhupada or is like when Ravana stole Sita?

 

What a trickster, LOL, then yes, you would be right in that context.

 

RCB

[raghu]

A spiritual leader is supposed set a good example and live the standard that he preaches. The gurus of iskcon like hridayananda swami are preaching the idea that they are propagating "authentic" and "bona fideVedic culture." So when one such guru offers a public blessing to a homosexual couple, even though homosexual marriages are NOT a feature of Vedic culture, he is authenticating or even symbolically endorsing a non-Vedic institution. This would not be a problem were he not claiming to represent a sampradaya with origins in Vedic culture. But that is not the case here.

 

There is simply no way to rationalize this man's behavior as long as he allows himself to be thought of as a guru. What is difficult to rationalize is why his peers and followers tolerate this and similar degraded behaviors. As an outsider looking in, I have witnessed a never-ending series of bizarre ideas emanating not just from iskcon's rank-and-file devotee, but also from its spiritual leaders. These include such tasty concepts as: homosexuals dancers are auspicious at public functions, gurus who can "access higher dimensions," gurus who write about UFO's and conspiracy theories, etc etc. Why do iskcon gurus claim to represent an unbroken tradition originating with the compiler of the Vedas when they embrace all ideas that have nothing to do with the Vedas?

 

The reality is that many iskcon followers also have little interest in preserving the philosophical integrity of their tradition. Almost *everyone* on this thread who has complained about the gay marriage blessing has *also* been guilty of spreading wrong ideas in the name of their sampradaya, and I can quote postings from this very forum to prove it. Whether it is "Jesus is a pure devotee of Krishna" or "fall down from Vaikuntha" I have observed that when some of these ideas are shown to be false, many of you stubbornly cling to them even in public. So what is the real difference between you and the gay marriage swami? In principle, there is no difference.

 

People like hridayananda swami who give lip service to guru, Vedas, sampradaya, etc only exist because many of you also only give lip service to the same. If everyone truly believed in being faithful to these things then detractors like hridayananda would be thrown out immediately. But we all know this will not happen right? Is it actually likely that iskcon people will show some backbone and throw out the garbage? Or is it more likely that iskcon people will hem and haw, complain here and there, but ultimately accept that he is a "pure devotee" who is just "preaching" in his own special way?

 

Ultimately, it's a case of the blind being led by the blind. If you really want authentic Vaishnavism, maybe some of you should be looking elsewhere, preferably at gurus who practice what they preach.

[AncientMariner]

In this politically correct environment I just tell gay people I respect their right to choose who they love but this thought always pops into my head and it says "No matter what rationalization these people come up with from an anatomical perspective there is something inherently ridiculous about homosexuality."

[raghu]

 

In this politically correct environment I just tell gay people I respect their right to choose who they love but this thought always pops into my head and it says "No matter what rationalization these people come up with from an anatomical perspective there is something inherently ridiculous about homosexuality."

 

But the real point has nothing to do with whether it is ridiculous or not.

 

The point is that homosexual unions are not a feature of Vedic culture, and a "guru" claiming (even implicitly) to represent "Vedic culture" has no rationale to publicly recognize or encourage such unions.

[AncientMariner]

 

But the real point has nothing to do with whether it is ridiculous or not.

 

The point is that homosexual unions are not a feature of Vedic culture, and a "guru" claiming (even implicitly) to represent "Vedic culture" has no rationale to publicly recognize or encourage such unions.

 

 

 

Good point, I read in one of Prabhupada's books where he said it is degrading to a priest to marry homosexuals and he was pointing out how fallen some of the Christian priests are for doing that and pointing out it is a symptom of the Kali-yuga. I know if I was a priest I would say I am sorry but I am walking away from this one, I wish you both love and happiness but I do not wish to degrade myself in such a manner.

[kaisersose]

 

But the real point has nothing to do with whether it is ridiculous or not.

 

I believe most of the gentlemen objecting to the concept here are solely doing it on the grounds that it sounds ridiculous to them. I would be truly amazed to find out there is anything more than that to their position.

 

 

The point is that homosexual unions are not a feature of Vedic culture, and a "guru" claiming (even implicitly) to represent "Vedic culture" has no rationale to publicly recognize or encourage such unions.

 

I am curious. What is "vedic culture"?

 

We see the phrase bandied about by several iskconites here. If we are just subjectively basing that on individual opinions, then it does not mean much. There was an iskcon gentleman on this forum a few years ago who was of the opinion that watching TV is not "vedic culture" or appropriate for devotees. Not just R-rated programs, but watching TV in general. Then there are some who believe it is inappropriate for Brahmanas to cross the ocean and travel beyond. And then there is reinterpreting the concept of varnashrama to include Mlechchas, not eating beetroots, etc, etc. So what/who defines the boundaries, the shape and size of "vedic culture"?

 

I would interpret the phrase literally and say it was the culture of the time of the composition of the vedas, a lifestyle of which, most, if not all aspects, have become outdated and are no longer in practice anywhere in the world. But clearly, the general view on this forum appears to be different and I am curious to understand this view better.

 

(Not that it should matter, but I am not gay, btw)

 

Cheers

[AncientMariner]

In Vedic culture I was under the understanding that marriage is primarily for procreation so it seems logical that gay marriage inherently doesn't fit in that model due simply to the anatomy involved.

[AncientMariner]

Remember, Jesus would rather constantly shame gays than let orphans have a family. - Steven Colbert

 

 

 

 

Who is Steven Colbert? Another celebrity puke who thinks it is fashionable to bash on Jesus? I guess he is probably making fun of Christianity and if so then I would consider that fair game but leave Jesus out of this.

[AncientMariner]

 

I actually had that impression when I first met Srila Prabhupada, when he came to Honolulu in August of 1970. I had absolutely no doubt that the rest of my life belonged to him from the moment our eyes met. But I had an uneasy feeling about those traveling with him: Kirtanananda, Madhudvisa, Devananda, Karttikeya (all sannyasis), and Tamal. I had a bad feeling that they had some desire to somehow manipulate, control Srila Prabhupada.

 

 

 

I don't blame you for moving to Costa Rica, the country that you fought for in Vietnam has turned into a real piece of work. I guess the whole thing was basically an illusion all along, everything we were taught from grade school was a lie.

[tackleberry]

 

But the real point has nothing to do with whether it is ridiculous or not.

 

The point is that homosexual unions are not a feature of Vedic culture, and a "guru" claiming (even implicitly) to represent "Vedic culture" has no rationale to publicly recognize or encourage such unions.

 

There must've been a lot of gay people in ancient India. What happened to them? Did vedic societies tolerate them, or were they punished?

[suchandra]

 

Yes, Srila Prabhupada should have kicked out the entire Mott Street boys club early on in New York: Kirtanananda, Hayagriva, Umapati and their various boyfriends... instead, he gave Kirtananda the first sannyasa in our movement and made Hayagriva his chief editor... then we had Bhavs and a few other fags that made life miserable for a lot of folks in Iskcon...

 

Fast forward to present.... well... remember, this was just a blessing conveyed by an email to two people who are at most just congregational members of a local preaching center. So... relax a little... they were not initiated or given important jobs at the BBT...

These people knew what is what, they got the details and agreed to follow Prabhupada's teachings. And: They sweared an oath to follow the regs. What they did afterwards is clearly a breech of agreement, criminal.

 

Since Western Vaishnavas are rather neophytes when it comes to actual spiritual theology they are well advised how the church is dealing this question.

 

The Pope has told members of his Vatican staff that saving humanity from homosexual or transexual behaviour is just as important as saving the rainforest from destruction.

 

I agree with the Pope - homosexuality is an evil perversion which must be crushed and destroyed in the best interests of a sound and civilised society.

 

Brazil's Federal Council of Psychology (CFP) has announced that it will prohibit psychologists from helping the Catholic Church to screen out candidates to the priesthood who have homosexual tendencies. This is demomiac.

 

Any country that allows homosexuals to roam and to seduce the young shall be destroyed. Vatican document: homosexuals should not be ordained or admitted to the seminary.

 

Pope Benedict: homosexuals destroy themselves. Great Britain study says 43% of gays, lesbians, and bisexuals have a mental disorder. Canadian Bishop: The State must curtail homosexuality for the common good. John Paul II calls gay marriage part of "ideology of evil". Top Vatican Cardinal: gay marriage is "a crime which represents the destruction of the world".

Expert research finds homosexuality more dangerous than smoking.

 

America: Slouching towards Gomorrah: "As in Sodom and Gomorrha, mankind had gone down and given itself over to Satan. I ask you now, My children, to turn back from your road to destruction, for you will be surely destroyed as was the time of Sodom and Gomorrha. Homosexuality shall not be condoned. It is an abomination in the eyes of the Eternal Father, and as such, is condemning many to hell. When a country has given itself over to immorality and all pleasures of the flesh, and abominations of the flesh, then that country will fall! If you do not believe Me, My children, I say: You will read your history books, and you will find out that there was a Sodom and Gomorrha. And what did We do to that abominable city, Sodom? We destroyed it! And what did We do to Gomorrha? We destroyed it! And We destroyed all who did not follow the plan for their redemption."

 

Saint Bernardine of Siena, a preacher of the fifteenth century, makes an accurate psychological analysis of the consequences of the homosexual vice: “No sin has greater power over the soul than the one of cursed sodomy, which was always detested by all those who lived according to God….. Such passion for undue forms borders on madness. This vice disturbs the intellect, breaks an elevated and generous state of soul, drags great thoughts to petty ones, makes [men] pusillanimous and irascible, obstinate and hardened, servilely soft and incapable of anything. Furthermore, the will, being agitated by the insatiable drive for pleasure, no longer follows reason, but furor…. Someone who lived practicing the vice of sodomy will suffer more pains in Hell than any one else, because this is the worst sin that there is.” (St. Bernardine of Siena, Predica XXXIX, in Le prediche volgari (Milan: Rizzoli, 1936), pp. 869ff., 915, in F. Bernadei, op. cit., pp. 11f)

 

Saint Peter Damian’s Liber Gomorrhianus [book of Gomorrha], addressed to Pope Leo IX in the year 1051, is considered the principal work against homosexuality. It reads: “This vice strives to destroy the walls of one’s heavenly motherland and rebuild those of devastated Sodom. Indeed, it violates temperance, kills purity, stifles chastity and annihilates virginity ... with the sword of a most infamous union. It infects, stains and pollutes everything; it leaves nothing pure, there is nothing but filth ... This vice expels one from the choir of the ecclesiastical host and obliges one to join the energumens and those who work in league with the devil; it separates the soul from God and links it with the demons. This most pestiferous queen of the Sodomites [which is homosexuality] makes those who obey her tyrannical laws repugnant to men and hateful to God ... It humiliates at church, condemns at court, defiles in secret, dishonors in public, gnaws at the person’s conscience like a worm and burns his flesh like fire...

“The miserable flesh burns with the fire of lust, the cold intelligence trembles under the rancor of suspicion, and the unfortunate man’s heart is possessed by hellish chaos, and his pains of conscience are as great as the tortures in punishment he will suffer ... Indeed, this scourge destroys the foundations of faith, weakens the force of hope, dissipates the bonds of charity, annihilates justice, undermines fortitude, ... and dulls the edge of prudence.

“What else shall I say? It expels all the forces of virtue from the temple of the human heart and, pulling the door from its hinges, introduces into it all the barbarity of vice ... In effect, the one whom ... this atrocious beast [of homosexuality] has swallowed down its bloody throat is prevented, by the weight of his chains, from practicing all good works and is precipitated into the very abysses of its uttermost wickedness. Thus, as soon as someone has fallen into this chasm of extreme perdition, he is exiled from the heavenly motherland, separated from the Body of Christ, confounded by the authority of the whole Church, condemned by the judgment of all the Holy Fathers, despised by men on earth, and reproved by the society of heavenly citizens. He creates for himself an earth of iron and a sky of bronze ... He cannot be happy while he lives nor have hope when he dies, because in life he is obliged to suffer the ignominy of men’s derision and later, the torment of eternal condemnation” (Liber Gomorrhianus, in PL 145, col. 159-178).

 

 

[theist]

For those that think Homosex 'marriages' are normal and natural expressions of relationships in human society I ask this question. Why are there no accounts given of homosex couples in the Bhagavatam? Or an other scriptures for that matter. If someone knows of an example please point it out to me.

 

The absence of such an example should speak loud and clear on this topic.

[kaisersose]

 

For those that think Homosex 'marriages' are normal and natural expressions of relationships in human society I ask this question. Why are there no accounts given of homosex couples in the Bhagavatam? Or an other scriptures for that matter. If someone knows of an example please point it out to me.

 

The absence of such an example should speak loud and clear on this topic.

 

Does the Bhagavatam say anywhere that it covers all "normal and natural expressions of relationships in human society" and that anything not covered thusly is disapproved?

 

or are we just assuming it does?

 

If the answer is the latter, then it means nothing - just like some drawing on the Bhagavatam to measure distance to the moon. Using a text for something it was not meant for, is abuse.

 

Cheers