Hridayananda is over the edge

[kaisersose]

 

In Vedic culture I was under the understanding that marriage is primarily for procreation so it seems logical that gay marriage inherently doesn't fit in that model due simply to the anatomy involved.

 

Obviously, a marriage can and does provide a number of other benefits besides procreation. It is not logical to make procreation the primary focus of marriage and if there is any "vedic text" that says so, I would like to see it. A male and female coming together solely for procreation is an animal characterestic. No society in the history of mankind, has taken that position.

 

Gay men or women can come together to adopt and raise a child, which potentially may be a better life for the child. Do we need past precedents in "vedic texts" before we will step up to make the life of a child better? Culture is dynamic and localized. It does not make much sense to take a 2000 year old culture from North India and try to apply it to the entire world in 2009. We know it is not gonna work, we also have direct evidence of some religious groups trying to do exactly that in the past few decades and failing.

 

Spirituality has nothing to do with any specific culture. Any interest or involvement in cultural aspects is a distraction and in my opinion, most people here are drawn away by such silly distractions. A good part of their time seems to go in pointless criticisms, partisan politics and judging others - all hiding behind the cloak of spiritualism.

 

Cheers

[Kulapavana]

 

I think you confuse making the best use of a bad bargan with purposfully cherry picking the helpers that came.

 

Srila Prabhupada had compassion and tremendous faith in the purifying power of the holy name. That is why he did not hesitate to use very degraded people for very important jobs in his movement. That strategy did not always produce good results, but I can appreciate Prabhupada's compassion for these people.

 

Some people here show very little compassion, just like the Bible influenced primitives who think all gay people should be stoned to death. That is un-Vedic, and un-Vaishnava.

 

I do not think that gay marriages are something our society should embrace with open arms. But I also do not want such people to be treates as untouchables. ANYONE can practice Krsna consciousness and ALL should be encouraged to do so. That is what H.S was doing in this email.

[Kulapavana]

 

I agree with the Pope - homosexuality is an evil perversion which must be crushed and destroyed in the best interests of a sound and civilised society.

 

Then you know nothing about how the Vedic culture looked at that issue.

[rahulhb]

Crazy ! Crazy ! Crazy !

 

Unatural ! - Srila Prabhupad has made this clear

 

The only purpose of marriage is to make KC children - to take you're children back to godhead !

 

Hare krishna

[suchandra]

On Gays and Gay Marriage BY: KRISHNA KIRTI DASA

Feb 04, USA — Funny how this coincides with the last email I wrote, in which I said that ISKCON should split. And then I received a number of concerned responses --some of them condescending. To the devotee who said he'd rather be a fallen devotee in ISKCON rather than a pure devotee outside of ISKCON -- being a "company man" has its drawbacks. You might actually get what you just wished for, but not in the way you imagined.

Just consider this comment, as published on Dandavats, to the attached essays:

• "At the very end of last year in South Africa, a law was passed, sanctioning gay marriages. We cannot stop the advance of kali-yuga and we need to encourage everyone. However, by recognizing gay marriages in ISKCON, we endorse sexual activity not meant for procreation, which encourages ordinary married initiated couples to continue with fruitless sexual activities within marriage. If purity is indeed the force, shouldn’t our leaders encourage devotees to follow better and assist them in their struggle? We don’t need to give public lectures about it, but in small bhakti-vrksa groups and counselors groups, surely these things should be discussed and devotees encouraged to follow. We’ve had so many nauseating scandals. And krsna-kirti’s statement (approximate) that as time goes on, devotees who seriously want to progress will be forced to leave ISKCON is certainly a possibility we can’t dismiss lightly."
  (The rest of the comment can be read here)

So, in finer detail, let me tell you all why I think it is a good idea that ISKCON split - one a liberal organization and the other a separate conservative organization.

Ideas have consequences. HH HDG's radical ideas about sex have gone virtually unchallenged in the five years since he articulated them. That means that there are many, many devotees within ISKCON who are basing their understanding of Krishna consciousness on his views. Now we have gay blessing ceremonies. What is next? Hint: ideas motivate behavior.

Because ISKCON's members increasingly disagree over fundamental precepts of our faith, the likelihood of internal conflict within ISKCON is already high and continues to escalate. If there is routine conflict, offenses will be routinely committed. When offenses are so easily and frequently committed, transcending material desire and making spiritual advancement will become all but impossible.

• laukika-lilate dharma-maryada-raksana
  stuti-bhaktye karena tanra carana vandana "To maintain the proper etiquette for the principles of religion, Lord Caitanya bows down at the lotus feet of Sri Advaita Acarya with reverential prayers and devotion." (CC Adi 6.41 trans)

In an atmosphere of high conflict, it will be very difficult if not impossible to maintain the right mood for making spiritual advancement. The proper etiquette necessary to follow the principles of religion will routinely be neglected or broken.

Although some devotees have asked me to "stay and fight", I believe that if like-minded others and I continue to do that, then sooner rather than later we, and our opponents, will commit mistakes that will hurt our spiritual advancement.

This is where being not liberated makes a difference. Even as devotees on the right path, we are still prone to making mistakes, being in illusion, making calculations based on faulty and imperfect senses, and, yes, our cheating propensity can also mislead us, too. Yes, us non-liberated sadhakas still have a cheating propensity! All it takes is a single mistake to ruin anyone's spiritual progress.

Because an atmosphere of high conflict maximizes the risk of making such mistakes, which often enough translate into offenses, separation rather than unity is therefore in the best interests of ISKCON's members and Srila Prabhupada's mission.

Although there was a time when "stay and fight" was the virtuous thing to do, this has been going on for five years, now. The GBC knows about it, yet they have decided not to take any action. Maunam samiti lakshanam. The time is over for giving them any more benefit of the doubt. As there is no chance of rectifying this through ISKCON's official political channels, and the risk of creating offenses is too great, it is time for devotees who know better to strike out on their own and form their own organization.

Of course, I don't expect such a thing to happen immediately. Devotee leaders who are disciples of Srila Prabhupada are just not going to leave unless they are deeply and personally offended by GBC officials. And I don't see that happening in the foreseeable future. Because of their advanced age, they will to try to avoid conflict and stay, whatever the cost.

The next generation of devotees (my generation) will take over soon enough -- perhaps within the next 10 years. Because we are younger and more "idealistic", it is for us to make the decision whether to split or not. This letter is therefore not so much directed to Srila Prabhupada disciples as it is to devotees in my generation and those who are younger.

Of course, like-minded others and I could be wrong about all this. Maybe we're all in maya. Who knows? However, what is indisputable is that things like blessing a gay wedding (or whatever you want to call it, "a rose by any other name is still a rose") are things that Srila Prabhupada himself clearly and unequivocally spoke out against. Do we want to live in an ISKCON that doesn't respect Srila Prabhupada's teachings and sentiments? Perhaps some do. I don't.

Although I agree that Srila Prabhupada wanted ISKCON to remain together, I also believe that Srila Prabhupada would not have wanted ISKCON to become something show-bottle and sahajiya. I believe that Srila Prabhupada would prefer splitting ISKCON and having at least one group remain faithful to his teachings than seeing ISKCON remain united yet unfaithful.

If anyone wants to see what a serious proposal for what a bifurcated ISKCON would look like, as made by a senior and respected ISKCON member (who wants to remain anonymous, so don't even bother asking me to tell you who he is), you can read about it here.

[bhaktatraveler]

 

Then you know nothing about how the Vedic culture looked at that issue.

 

We know what Srila prabhupada says on the matter. I personally do not care if someone disagrees with that. I have to take the conclusions Prabhupada took. Homosex is outside of the four varnas and there by untouchable. Just like the cobbler.

 

Yes, Yes, what ever you say is good for you. I go with Prabhupada and we do not need to take any more lazies or crazy in the name of doing the best with a bad bargan as Srila Prabhupada abviously had to do and willingly did. Time to grow!

 

We aren't Prabhupada and it is not 1965/66 in the village.

 

RCB

[suchandra]

 

We know what Srila prabhupada says on the matter. I personally do not care if someone disagrees with that. I have to take the conclusions Prabhupada took. Homosex is outside of the four varnas and there by untouchable. Just like the cobbler.

 

Yes, Yes, what ever you say is good for you. I go with Prabhupada and we do not need to take any more lazies or crazy in the name of doing the best with a bad bargan as Srila Prabhupada abviously had to do and willingly did. Time to grow!

 

We aren't Prabhupada and it is not 1965/66 in the village.

 

RCB

 

Good point Prabhupada knew about the high risk he was taking. But was there any other choice except returning to Vrindavan? Since there wasn't any other choice Prabhupada did it that way and prayed that things ultimately may work out. Agreed, since none of us is starting a world movement at the age of 70 this cannot happen anymore.

[Kulapavana]

 

I go with Prabhupada and we do not need to take any more lazies or crazy in the name of doing the best with a bad bargan as Srila Prabhupada abviously had to do and willingly did. Time to grow!

 

We aren't Prabhupada and it is not 1965/66 in the village.

 

 

Yes, you will justify whatever Prabhupada did as "doing the best with a bad bargain" - even when ultimately such a move caused a lot of problems for our movement (like with K-swami and Bhavs), but you will not give ANY benefit of a doubt to a simple email Hridayananda Swami sent to a couple of congregational members for encouragement... you are obviously blind and prejudiced.

[Kulapavana]

 

Prabhupada knew about the high risk he was taking. But was there any other choice except returning to Vrindavan? Since there wasn't any other choice Prabhupada did it that way and prayed that things ultimately may work out.

 

There were plenty of other choices as Prabhupada had a lot of disciples to chose from. Perhaps he did not see homosexual background of his disciples as very dangerous. He certainly did not make a very big deal out of it.

[andy108]

 

Srila Prabhupada had compassion and tremendous faith in the purifying power of the holy name. That is why he did not hesitate to use very degraded people for very important jobs in his movement. That strategy did not always produce good results, but I can appreciate Prabhupada's compassion for these people.

You are missing the point of the Acarya's function and reason for being here. Having ultimate mercy and spiritual compassion is the means and the end. That was his result. Whatever slow steady purification that has been going on with those worst of the worst characters the universe had to offer, whom Krsna threw Prabhupada's way, IS THE PRIMARY RESULT both Krsna and Prabhupada was looking for. If he hadn't set their devotional life in motion, however subtly, imagine the havoc they were meant to wreak upon this planet. Wake up!

 

 

BG 2.36 purport:

PURPORT

Lord Kṛṣṇa was astonished in the beginning at Arjuna's uncalled-for plea for compassion, and He described his compassion as befitting the non-Aryans. Now in so many words, He has proved His statements against Arjuna's so-called compassion.

 

 

Conversely you imagine that the prime cause was to create a perfect movement, and strategically choose people for "jobs" with maximum pragmatic efficiency. Your mundane talent at managing people is the lens you look through. You don't appreciate Prabhupada's compassion, because you haven't yet grasped what REAL compassion is.

 

 

Conversations : 1976 Conversations : March, 1976 : Morning Walk -- March 19, 1976, Mayapura : 760319mw.may :

Prabhupāda: Everywhere, they.... So, so they're standing—no customer at two o'clock. It is very cold. So Vidyasagara will take compassion: "All right, you take two rupees. Go home. Sleep." And that is in Vidyasagara's life, compassionate to the prostitute. By giving her two rupees, will she change her profession? But this learned man, he thought like that, that "She is standing in the severe cold. All right, let me.... Let me.... Let me give her two rupees. Then go home. Don't take so much..." He's Vidyasagara. The vidyā-sāgara means "ocean of education." And Haridāsa Ṭhākura—a prostitute came for three nights and converted her to a devotee. That's it. That is real compassion, not that "Take two rupees and go home." No. Turn her. That is real compassion, to turn everyone to become Kṛṣṇa conscious.

From your writings on this thread it is obvious you adhere to the perverted idea of compassion that is based on making a person feel comfortable about their material choices so they don't feel offended or encouraged to do anything but keep doing what they are doing. Far left liberal nonsense. So-called compassion. Compassion is a SPIRITUAL activity. It is knowing what is best for a person and prescribing that regardless of how they feel about it. And I am not talking about shaming them for current predilections and breaking their spirit, but telling it like it is and offering them the best course of action, not forcing it on them. Then they can take it or leave it, but to equivocate and allow someone to think they will make advancement is cheating them just so they will like you or so you will feel magnanimous and altruistic, but that is just your material desire for fame adoration and distinction.

 

I am not saying it is wrong for you to have these natural material desires, but for you to conflate them for understanding what is spiritual compassion does you and others a spiritual disservice.

 

And you should speak against those who use the rubric of spiritual compassion to be cold and callous and shame people for their current perversions whether in the mode of goodness or ignorance. But without a sharp discrimination on the subject you are spiritually useless.

 

Of course you did call it right with Suchandra. He was WAY off.

 

 

Books : Srimad-Bhagavatam : Canto 5: "The Creative Impetus" : SB 5.8: A Description of the Character of Bharata Maharaja : SB 5.8.10 : PURPORT

 

Māyā is very strong. In the name of philanthropy, altruism and communism, people are feeling compassion for suffering humanity throughout the world. Philanthropists and altruists do not realize that it is impossible to improve people’s material conditions. Material conditions are already established by the superior administration according to one’s karma. They cannot be changed. The only benefit we can render to suffering beings is to try to raise them to spiritual consciousness. Material comforts cannot be increased or decreased. It is therefore said in Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam (1.5.18), tal labhyate duḥkhavad anyataḥ sukham: “As far as material happiness is concerned, that comes without effort, just as tribulations come without effort.” Material happiness and pain can be attained without endeavor. One should not bother for material activities. If one is at all sympathetic or able to do good to others, he should endeavor to raise people to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. In this way everyone advances spiritually by the grace of the Lord. For our instruction, Bharata Mahārāja acted in such a way. We should be very careful not to be misled by so-called welfare activities conducted in bodily, terms. One should not give up his interest in attaining the favor of Lord Viṣṇu at any cost. Generally people do not know this, or they forget it. Consequently they sacrifice their original interest, the attainment of Viṣṇu’s favor, and engage in philanthropic activities for bodily comfort.

[Kulapavana]

 

From your writings on this thread it is obvious you adhere to the perverted idea of compassion that is based on making a person feel comfortable about their material choices so they don't feel offended or encouraged to do anything but keep doing what they are doing. Far left liberal nonsense.

 

And where do I say that?

 

Prabhupada's compassion was to engage in the process of KC even people with extremely low class behavior. All hippies were low class, but the homosexual hippies were extremely low class, by any standard. He certainly was expecting them to change. How? By gradually becoming purified. He did not tell these people about 4 regs until AFTER initiation. He did that by posting a notice on a wall in the temple. Can you imagine an uproar all of you ritviks would raise if any of the current gurus did such a thing?

 

People are not joining our temples and congregations in great numbers because they are not being properly cultivated. I see Hridayananda's email as an attempt to cultivate the congregation in the spirit of compassion Srila Prabhupada exemplified, that's all.

 

In our tradition when a saintly person shows compassion to the fallen people he is glorified by all... but not so in Iskcon... if he shows compassion to gay people, he is vilified and ridiculed... you bigots make me sick...

[Sonic Yogi]

 

You are missing the point of the Acarya's function and reason for being here.

 

Do you think anyone is going to respect your views if you come in the forum talking down to other members like that?

You are talking down to Kulapavana as if he is a blithering idiot.

 

Is that the best way to really demonstrate how humble and spiritually advanced you are?

 

Your ego seems to be as big as the great outdoors.

 

How do you expect anyone to respect your views when you come off so arrogant and full of yourself?

[andy108]

 

Do you think anyone is going to respect your views if you come in the forum talking down to other members like that?

You are talking down to Kulapavana as if he is a blithering idiot.

 

Is that the best way to really demonstrate how humble and spiritually advanced you are?

 

Your ego seems to be as big as the great outdoors.

 

How do you expect anyone to respect your views when you come off so arrogant and full of yourself?

I am sorry that I offended you yesterday. But it would be a shame if you let that color your judgement here. I am not trying to demonstrate anything to anyone. If you look objectively, I read what kula said, and countered it with commentary based strictly on what Srila Prabhupada said.

 

If someone feels that being corrected is being talked down to, then you have pissed off hundreds of people in your day.

[Sonic Yogi]

 

I am sorry that I offended you yesterday. But it would be a shame if you let that color your judgement here. I am not trying to demonstrate anything to anyone. If you look objectively, I read what kula said, and countered it with commentary based strictly on what Srila Prabhupada said.

 

If someone feels that being corrected is being talked down to, then you have pissed off hundreds of people in your day.

OK, I am passing the torch to you.

I don't need to be the forum nemesis and resident jerk anymore because I finally found someone more qualified than me.

 

That's great.

Being the forum bad guy gets old after a while.

 

Good luck.

Have fun with being unpopular and disliked.

 

You are the right man for the job.

[andy108]

 

And where do I say that?

 

Right here.

 

 

That strategy did not always produce good results

 

Again, your very statement indicates you were missing the Main cause of his strategy. It always produced good results in terms of his highest cause of being compassionate enough to accept an untouchable homo hippie to his breast, give him mercy, and initiate his spiritual purification.

 

The good results you were hoping for, which granted did not occur through those men, would have been a positive but secondary by product. However, the instructions they did not follow are still available for YOU to. And that was the Lord's and Guru's mercy.

 

 

People are not joining our temples and congregations in great numbers because they are not being properly cultivated.

 

And you have historically used this real fact to argue that Srila Prabhupada's methods and "strategies" at properly cultivating people were a failure. I counter the arguement, time and again, and warn that you are minimizing a saktavesha avatara and acarya in doing so. And you say I am a bigot.

 

But it is you who are so stubbornly holding on to your prejudice against Srila Prabhupada based on a faulty perspective of his deepest intent and methods, leading you down a path to a raw deal, and perhaps swaying new naive aspirants who still hold ultimate value to altruistic material "so called compassion and would agree with you and decide not to take Srila Prabhupada's instructions on these matters seriously. Which again is not in your best interest.

[Kulapavana]

Yogi-ji, thanks for speaking up for me, but I am pretty thick and very little offends me, especially when it comes from a disgruntled devotee. On more than one occasion some of these guys even threatened to kill me. I usually laugh at that because I know they are just all mouth.

 

We become blind when we think that only we can properly understand what is right and wrong. That is actually just ego and ignorance speaking. We can always learn from others, even it is just learning from their mistakes.

 

Dandavat pranams to all devotees - big or small, wise or foolish.

[Kulapavana]

 

And you have historically used this real fact to argue that Srila Prabhupada's methods and "strategies" at properly cultivating people were a failure.

 

Actually I always admired Prabhupada's ability to cultivate people and use them in his mission. For example, he would take common thieves and engage them in raising money for his projects. Even though they stole part of what they raised for their own maya, they allowed Prabhupada to build many important projects, like Mayapur or New Vrindavan. This tactic got many things accomplished, even as it generated bad press for Iskcon and a serious backlash with the society in general.

[andy108]

 

OK, I am passing the torch to you.

I don't need to be the forum nemesis and resident jerk anymore because I finally found someone more qualified than me.

 

That's great.

Being the forum bad guy gets old after a while.

 

Good luck.

Have fun with being unpopular and disliked.

 

You are the right man for the job.

 

It is a shame that my false ego pops its head in via my style, sarcasm, and other poor characteristics. Because I know my analyses are mostly spot on, because I let my Guru tell the truth and then repeat it in my own way.

 

I am not certain if I was completely neutral and robotic in my presentation that I would be any better liked or respected, especially by those who we all know aren't looking to change and are trying to make a career out of being a pseudo-acarya like Muni.

 

But they help me sharpen my sword, and maybe my fire and commitment adds something to those who are on the fence watching the debate. Hard to say.

 

But If I know the truth, and the people I am debating with don't know and usually don't ACTUALLY CARE, and I know that....

 

I avoid ad hominems, but call a spade a spade. And I wouldn't even be here doing this but for 2 reasons.

 

1. I don't have the land or finances to start my own temple. I am mostly qualfied (Toot toot of my own horn) but waiting on an imminent financial windfall. If I was totally qualified it would be in my hands right now I suppose.

 

2. None of the older Prabhus who I actually look up to, Like you, Have anything going on either. And I have tried to play middle man messenger between select older Prabhus, hoping to assist in healing old wounds and mending fences so that a synergy might develop between Y'all, because it would also benefit me by being able to take shelter of a regular Harinama sankirtana group. But to no avail.

 

And I refuse to go hang at an Itsgone temple.

 

So until I get my commission I will be on the internet. Trolling for trolls, and flailing my sword like a maniac. What fun.

 

Thanks for your patience with me.

 

Hare Krsna

[andy108]

 

Actually I always admired Prabhupada's ability to cultivate people and use them in his mission. For example, he would take common thieves and engage them in raising money for his projects. Even though they stole part of what they raised for their own maya, they allowed Prabhupada to build many important projects, like Mayapur or New Vrindavan. This tactic got many things accomplished, even as it generated bad press for Iskcon and a serious backlash with the society in general.

 

It sounds like you believe what you just wrote, but that does not change the fact of what I said about your historical usage of the fact of "backlash" to justify your minimization campaign.

 

I am not saying it is easy to deal with the backlash. You call me disgruntled, but why bother when you know you are, and for good reason. You faithfully served a very crafty and devious personage who got one over on you. But remember it was your good intentions, lack of malice and lack of duplicity, good qualities, plus lack of worldly experience, that blinded you to Hurry Cash and his true nature. You still keep your good qualities and move on, but your wound is now a scar that aches a bit in the winter.

 

So the bottom line is if you are not transcendentally endowed with the inconceivable potency to do what Srila Prabhupada did with hell on wheels dacoits and theives, not to worry! The Lord did not and does not expect anyone to be another Saktavesha Jagat Guru Paramahamsa Acarya anytime soon, that is why the one he sent was careful to give a detailed outline of instructions that guys like you and me can understand and implement with a little faith and austerity.

 

Daily Morning Program. Prasadam distribution. Harinama, at least around the block. Distribute books when available. Set up a strategic preaching program when the stars align.

 

Represent him as Ritvik in terms of initiation.

 

Act as the best mentor we can, approaching Siksa Guru capacity with each passing day.

 

Know our Daiva Varna and Asrama.

 

Make sure all new comers who want to be initiated disciples are engaged according to their actual Daiva varna and asrama.

 

Which means, if they are a homosexual theif, we let them attend the temple programs, but they get no standing above sudra in the management scenario of our society.

 

If they are pious and military minded, they are engaged commensurate to their experience.

 

Best we can do as far as I can see.

 

What say you?

[Sonic Yogi]

 

It is a shame that my false ego pops its head in via my style, sarcasm, and other poor characteristics. Because I know my analyses are mostly spot on, because I let my Guru tell the truth and then repeat it in my own way.

 

I am not certain if I was completely neutral and robotic in my presentation that I would be any better liked or respected, especially by those who we all know aren't looking to change and are trying to make a career out of being a pseudo-acarya like Muni.

 

But they help me sharpen my sword, and maybe my fire and commitment adds something to those who are on the fence watching the debate. Hard to say.

 

But If I know the truth, and the people I am debating with don't know and usually don't ACTUALLY CARE, and I know that....

 

I avoid ad hominems, but call a spade a spade. And I wouldn't even be here doing this but for 2 reasons.

 

1. I don't have the land or finances to start my own temple. I am mostly qualfied (Toot toot of my own horn) but waiting on an imminent financial windfall. If I was totally qualified it would be in my hands right now I suppose.

 

2. None of the older Prabhus who I actually look up to, Like you, Have anything going on either. And I have tried to play middle man messenger between select older Prabhus, hoping to assist in healing old wounds and mending fences so that a synergy might develop between Y'all, because it would also benefit me by being able to take shelter of a regular Harinama sankirtana group. But to no avail.

 

And I refuse to go hang at an Itsgone temple.

 

So until I get my commission I will be on the internet. Trolling for trolls, and flailing my sword like a maniac. What fun.

 

Thanks for your patience with me.

 

Hare Krsna

 

Most often I played a role in the forums very much unlike the role I play in everyday life.

I too am very thick-skinned and am not out to win any popularity contests.

 

I still take the opportunity once in a while to play the antagonist like I did recently with my old friend Shiva (Gaurahari das) because I just really got tired of seeing him on the internet year after year trying to pose like some scholar and intellectual when I know darn good and well is he neither.

 

So, I finally expressed my disgust with his arrogant and condescending manner by just coming right back at him.

 

Anyway, I guess we both have a tendency to speak our minds a little harshly and undiplomatically.

 

But, when I see that in someone else other than myself I see how really pathetic it is.

 

Reading your writings here make me reflect on my history of being the forum bad guy who talks harshly not caring for the sensitivities of others.

 

It kinda makes me want to change and quit being such a jerk.

 

Maybe someday you will come to that realization also.

 

But, for now you can play the know it all talking down to the other members and I will try get away from that stuff and be more humble and sincere.

 

I hereby bequeath thee my honorary title as the forum TROLL.

 

(but, I reserve the right to take it back on a moment's notice if I ever get the whim)

[raghu]

 

I am curious. What is "vedic culture"?

 

We see the phrase bandied about by several iskconites here. If we are just subjectively basing that on individual opinions, then it does not mean much. There was an iskcon gentleman on this forum a few years ago who was of the opinion that watching TV is not "vedic culture" or appropriate for devotees. Not just R-rated programs, but watching TV in general. Then there are some who believe it is inappropriate for Brahmanas to cross the ocean and travel beyond. And then there is reinterpreting the concept of varnashrama to include Mlechchas, not eating beetroots, etc, etc. So what/who defines the boundaries, the shape and size of "vedic culture"?

 

I would interpret the phrase literally and say it was the culture of the time of the composition of the vedas, a lifestyle of which, most, if not all aspects, have become outdated and are no longer in practice anywhere in the world. But clearly, the general view on this forum appears to be different and I am curious to understand this view better.

 

I agree that "Vedic culture" is used very loosely on this forum. I use the term to refer to the customs, religion(s), habits, and attitudes of the people whose civilization is based on the Vedas and their supplementary literatures. I don't think that said culture is necessarily homogenous or static, but I think one can safely say that there is such a thing as "Vedic culture" without fear of overstepping one's bounds. We could also say "Hindu culture," but "Hindu" means different things to different people. On the other hand, most "Hindus" would at least theoretically accept the authority of the Vedas. We could also just say "ancient Indian culture," but I am discussing the indigenous culture and not the cultures of those who arrived in India later via invasions, etc and carried their own beliefs with them. Hence the term "Vedic culture."

 

One feature of said culture is varnAshrama dharma, and it is not correct to say that that it excludes people who are not following a monastic tradition. There is, after all, the marriage ashrama, and this has always been between men and women. We have no evidence of male-male marriages or female-female marriages being performed in Vedic society. Hence, it is dishonest for one to be a "guru" representing a "Vedic" tradition and yet go on to officially sanction, encourage, or otherwise recognize a same-sex union.

[Kulapavana]

 

You call me disgruntled, but why bother when you know you are, and for good reason. You faithfully served a very crafty and devious personage who got one over on you. But remember it was your good intentions, lack of malice and lack of duplicity, good qualities, plus lack of worldly experience, that blinded you to Hurry Cash and his true nature. You still keep your good qualities and move on, but your wound is now a scar that aches a bit in the winter.

 

Thank you for the kind words... I have learned very early on not to trust people in our movement too much, even as I might have repected them for their preaching efforts. And I did not fall for the Iskcon fairytales of pure devotees by decree and other assorted foolishnes. Being independently thoughtful served me well over the years and I am not about to give it up for anybody.

[theist]

 

 

So the bottom line is if you are not transcendentally endowed with the inconceivable potency to do what Srila Prabhupada did with hell on wheels dacoits and theives, not to worry! The Lord did not and does not expect anyone to be another Saktavesha Jagat Guru Paramahamsa Acarya anytime soon, that is why the one he sent was careful to give a detailed outline of instructions that guys like you and me can understand and implement with a little faith and austerity.

 

Daily Morning Program. Prasadam distribution. Harinama, at least around the block. Distribute books when available. Set up a strategic preaching program when the stars align.

 

Represent him as Ritvik in terms of initiation.

 

Act as the best mentor we can, approaching Siksa Guru capacity with each passing day.

 

Know our Daiva Varna and Asrama.

 

Make sure all new comers who want to be initiated disciples are engaged according to their actual Daiva varna and asrama.

 

Which means, if they are a homosexual theif, we let them attend the temple programs, but they get no standing above sudra in the management scenario of our society.

 

If they are pious and military minded, they are engaged commensurate to their experience.

 

Best we can do as far as I can see.

 

What say you?

 

 

How anyone disagree with the above is beyond me. It is the standard I hold myself to. I am not willing to accept the program Srila Prabhupada laid down for his disciples therefore I am not a disciple. Simple.

 

 

 

Why are homosexuals seeking to be accepted as followersa of Gaudiya Vaisnavism when they are not willing to conform the the established lifestyle principles of GV?

 

 

Vaisnavism is not just some closed social society that one seeks to be accepted by like some fraternity on a college campus?

 

 

 

But what is even more disturbing is the willingness of so many to alter the lifetyle tenets of GV to conform to the perverted desires of the homosex community.

 

 

I don't expect it for myself and my wordly habits and neither should anyone else. Prabhupada laid down a clear standard for being a disciple while leaving the door wide open for the rest of us to engage at our own desired pace.

 

 

If this is recognized then what we see from Srila Prabhupada is a strict standard on one hand and a welcoming hand with the other. These are not contradictory in the least.

 

 

You people that are arguing for relaxing the strict standard for discipleship and a real vaisnava lifestyle for the homosex crowd are really acting against the best interest of that crowd.

 

 

Once one feels his sinful activities are accepted by the religious body then he no longer sees a need to change from sinful activities to proper activities and so in this area your liberal attitude is really a subtle act of violence towards them. You are killing them with your so-called kindness. But what the hell at least you get to feel good about yourselves while you imagine yourselves to be more understanding and caring than His Divine Grace.

 

 

Enjoy your delusion while it lasts.

[andy108]

Well Theist, being that your mental posture is so clear and on the money, I'd say that your following the brahminical discipline of Hearing has paid off, your Chanting is in harmony with HIS version, and though you may not be highly qualified according to your varna, you are closer to leaping being a solid disciple than you might think. Advanced Neophyte bordering on the irrevocable stature of Madhyama. Slow and steady wins the race.

 

Srila Prabhupada expected us to create a scenario where, under restriction, our material desires were to be met quite nicely during the mixed devotion stage.

 

The following purport says it all.

 

Books : Srimad-Bhagavatam : Canto 8: "Withdrawal of the Cosmic Creations" : SB 8.2: The Elephant Gajendra's Crisis : SB 8.2.30 :

 

PURPORT :

In the fighting between the elephant and the crocodile, the difference was that although the elephant was extremely powerful, he was in a foreign place, in the water. During one thousand years of fighting, he could not get any food, and under the circumstances his bodily strength diminished, and because his bodily strength diminished, his mind also became weak and his senses less powerful. The crocodile, however, being an animal of the water, had no difficulties. He was getting food and was therefore getting mental strength and sensual encouragement. Thus while the elephant became reduced in strength, the crocodile became more and more powerful. Now, from this we may take the lesson that in our fight with māyā we should not be in a position in which our strength, enthusiasm and senses will be unable to fight vigorously. Our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement has actually declared war against the illusory energy, in which all the living entities are rotting in a false understanding of civilization. The soldiers in this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement must always possess physical strength, enthusiasm and sensual power. To keep themselves fit, they must therefore place themselves in a normal condition of life. What constitutes a normal condition will not be the same for everyone, and therefore there are divisions of varṇāśrama—brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra, brahmacarya, gṛhastha, vānaprastha and sannyāsa.

[Sonic Yogi]

 

The soldiers in this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement must always possess physical strength, enthusiasm and sensual power.

 

Soldiers?

Wouldn't that be a Ksatriya?

Should a brahmana have "sensual power"?

 

Did that refer to every devotee in the movement or the Ksatriyas?

 

By the way, who were the Ksatriyas and what sort of weapons were they issued?

 

I thought ISKCON was meant for creating a class of brahmanas?