Hridayananda is over the edge

[andy108]

 

Soldiers?

Wouldn't that be a Ksatriya?

Should a brahmana have "sensual power"?

 

Did that refer to every devotee in the movement or the Ksatriyas?

 

By the way, who were the Ksatriyas and what sort of weapons were they issued?

 

I thought ISKCON was meant for creating a class of brahmanas?

 

Well he uses the Pronoun "They" in the next sentence that predicates the subject sentence that began with "The soldiers".

 

"They must be placed in a normal condition of life...."

Then he describes a normal condition of life as being in one of any of the 4 varnas.

 

Since the topic of the purport was the fight against maya,

And earlier he said "in our fight with māyā we should not be in a position in which our strength, enthusiasm and senses will be unable to fight vigorously.

And earlier he said "our KC movement" has declared war against her.

 

I deduce he was referring to everyone as a soldier to make the point.

 

The word Sensual has been pigeonholed by common American usage, but it refers broadly to all the senses.

 

Remember this purport was written in 1976. This was long after he was ordering his disciples to assume varna according to their actual qualifications and predilections. He was telling his brahminically inclined that some of them may have to learn various arts, including military arts, to be able to teach them.

 

Down the DVD rabbit hole we go. Like the old expression about digging a hole to China, only this one will pop you out somewhere in a pasture in Gokula Vrndavana.

[suchandra]

 

Actually I always admired Prabhupada's ability to cultivate people and use them in his mission. For example, he would take common thieves and engage them in raising money for his projects. Even though they stole part of what they raised for their own maya, they allowed Prabhupada to build many important projects, like Mayapur or New Vrindavan. This tactic got many things accomplished, even as it generated bad press for Iskcon and a serious backlash with the society in general.

Prabhupada didn't allow anything - he also said no.

 

 

 

Srila Prabhupada Letter to Ramaraya 22 October 1971

 

"I am so glad to learn that you are eager to preach but we should know it that we cannot preach without being solid in our standing as devotee. Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu said that "apani acari prabhu jivare sikhaya.'' This means that Lord Caitanya wanted that one should preach by behaving himself exactly what he preaches.

So our Krsna consciousness movement, preaching, depends on personal behavior. If you want to preach the gospel of Lord Jesus Christ on the principles of Bhagavad-gita you will find so many differences. Those who are following Jesus Christ, let them follow strictly to the principles of the Bible. "Thou shalt not kill'' is now being misinterpreted by Christian priests. Now they say "Thou shall not murder.'' This means trying to save themselves from the crime of animal killing. So you cannot teach such unscrupled followers the message of Bhagavad-gita. If you want to preach Bible you can tell them why there will be misinterpretation. In N.Y. there is a big press that prints "Watchtower.'' They are forcefully criticizing Christian behavior.

I read that one Christian priest allowed a marriage between two men— homosex. So these things are going on. So your proposal for preaching the gospel on the basis of Bhagavad-gita will not be successful. If you want to do that I cannot check you but I cannot allow you to do such things from within our society. You have to understand our philosophy perfectly, follow the regulative principles, and then in fact you can edit our books and papers."

 

Letter to: Lalitananda Hawaii 26 May, 1975 75-05-26

 

My Dear Lalitananda dasa,

Please accept my blessings. I am in due receipt of your letter dated May 13rd, 1975 and have noted the contents. I am very sorry that you have taken to homosex. It will not help you advance in your attempt for spiritual life. In fact, it will only hamper your advancement. I do not know why you have taken to such abominable activities. What can I say? Anyway, try to render whatever service you can to Krishna. Even though you are in a very degraded condition Krishna, being pleased with your service attitude, can pick you up from your fallen state. You should stop this homosex immediately. It is illicit sex, otherwise, your chances of advancing in spiritual life are nil. Show Krishna you are serious, if you are. I hope this meets you in good health.

Your ever well-wisher, A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami

[Beggar]

One time in LA (maybe late '76), when Srila Prabhupada was not there, Dharmadhyaksa had invited some big professor that he was "cultivating". This gentleman liked devotees and although not a 'true believer' found the philosophy interesting. At the time Hrdayananda Maharaja was visiting so it was natural that Maharaja should head up the meeting. Straightaway after they were introduced Hrdayananda M. began to lay into the professor, "our spiritual master has told us that Phd means plow department." The professor although miffed tried to remain pleasant. The young sanyassi then said, "Phds are simply useless and the educational system they headup is simply a slaughter house." This was the tone of the meeting. You think maybe he was over the edge, like a little over 32 years ago? This is current events? And of course a little over 20 years later Hrdayananda got his --Phd. Wow! He became what he hated; beware for it can happen to anyone. Now I'll go and pray that it doesn't happen to me!

[theist]

 

<table width="100%" border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0"><tbody><tr><td style="border: 1px solid rgb(102, 102, 102); padding-left: 3ex; padding-right: 3ex;" bgcolor="#e0e0e0">Originally Posted by Kulapavana

ActuallyI always admired Prabhupada's ability to cultivate people and use themin his mission. For example, he would take common thieves and engagethem in raising money for his projects. Even though they stole part ofwhat they raised for their own maya, they allowed Prabhupada to buildmany important projects, like Mayapur or New Vrindavan. This tactic gotmany things accomplished, even as it generated bad press for Iskcon anda serious backlash with the society in general.

</td> </tr> </tbody></table><!-- END TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote -->

 

Well I remember one morning in the Honolulu temple Sukadeva the TP was reading a letter from Srila Prabhupada that was circulated and in it Prabhupada said that even though everything belongs to Krishna devotees should not take from others because it would be bad for the reputation of the movement.

 

Please don't try to lay all this crap on SP as if he sanctioned it.

[theist]

 

One time in LA (maybe late '76), when Srila Prabhupada was not there, Dharmadhyaksa had invited some big professor that he was "cultivating". This gentleman liked devotees and although not a 'true believer' found the philosophy interesting. At the time Hrdayananda Maharaja was visiting so it was natural that Maharaja should head up the meeting. Straightaway after they were introduced Hrdayananda M. began to lay into the professor, "our spiritual master has told us that Phd means plow department." The professor although miffed tried to remain pleasant. The young sanyassi then said, "Phds are simply useless and the educational system they headup is simply a slaughter house." This was the tone of the meeting. You think maybe he was over the edge, like a little over 32 years ago? This is current events? And of course a little over 20 years later Hrdayananda got his --Phd. Wow! He became what he hated; beware for it can happen to anyone. Now I'll go and pray that it doesn't happen to me!

 

 

This reminds me of an early tape around 73 or so of Hridayanada debating one professor Bharati who called himself a Swami Bharati on some campus. H. would not call him a swami but professor only. They had quite a sparring (spitting) match going. The best moment came when Bharati was really flailing around verbally a mile a minute and H said, "please professor control your senses". at which the whole audience laughed.

 

 

I wonder if this is the same incident Beggar.

[Kulapavana]

 

Please don't try to lay all this crap on SP as if he sanctioned it.

 

So you are saying that SP had no idea how the money was collected by Gurukripa and others? That nobody warned him that money was being collected by crooked means? That is not what I heard from those who were close to these issues. That he thought vast sums of money were collected even as the numbers of books distributed by these people could not account for the profits?

 

Interesting...

[Beggar]

 

 

I wonder if this is the same incident Beggar.

 

No, this was a latter incident. This guy wasn't so familiar with Eastern Religious concepts. There was also the famous incident where Swami Sat Chit Ananda came to the LA temple maybe in early '78, and H just creamed the Swami and seemed to really get off on it.

[suchandra]

Letter From Hridayananda Maharaja

by Hridayananda das Goswami

Posted February 6, 2009 [via facebook]

Dear Devotees,

Jaya Srila Prabhupada. A letter of blessings that I sent to a gay couple has caused an extraordinary amount of controversy, and so I am writing here to clarify my understanding of this issue, and the intention of my letter.

In the Bhagavad-gita 17.15, Lord Krishna states that "Austerity of speech consists in speaking words that are truthful, pleasing, beneficial, and not agitating to others..."

I have clearly failed to some extent in this duty as prescribed by Lord Krishna, given the bitter and insulting nature of some responses. I sincerely apologize to the devotees for this evident failure.

I have been accused of harboring thinly veiled political motives, or of seeking to impose upon ISKCON a new and de facto social reality regarding homosexual relations. To the devotees, even to the incredulous, I state here that none of this was my intention. In my letter, as I will later explain in detail, I sought, and apparently failed, to strike a balance that would not convulse ISKCON. The great agitation produced by my letter shows that I failed in my intent, for which I again apologize.

I am keenly aware that I do not have the right within ISKCON to unilaterally establish policy on this matter, and my intention was not to preempt, nor to pressure or coerce, a GBC decision on the issue.

Ironically, my own views on homosexuality are seen by the world in general as rather conservative and indeed those views often disappoint gay rights activists. As stated in an earlier paper I wrote on this topic:

1. I do not advocate, nor perform, gay marriage. I accept the view of Srila Prabhupada, (and, by the way, of the well-known gay musician, Elton John) that marriage historically has been, and should remain, a heterosexual institution.

2. Although science proves that a segment of the population is born with a homosexual orientation, and although homosexuality is thus natural for that group, I do not believe that what is natural for an individual or a group of individuals, is necessarily natural for society. Therefore I seek a balance that respects the genetically, unavoidably homosexual nature of an individual, as well as the natural right of society as a whole to privilege heterosexuality as its social norm.

In my letter, which was addressed to educated non-devotees, I began by saying:

"Our love for each other is a reflection of God's love for us. Thus, the perfection of every relationship is to see God in each other."

Since Krishna's love for us is pure, I believed that serious devotees would understand, from the beginning of my statement, that I was speaking of spiritual love, rather than mundane, bodily lust. I believed they would see that I was encouraging the persons involved to see Krishna within each other, and thus fully transcend the bodily concept of life. I then stated:

"May God bless [these] devoted souls, as they commit themselves to each other in the spirit of God's love for them. May [they] always please God through true love for each other."

Clearly we please Krishna by renouncing all sinful activities and selfish desires, and I made this very clear to both parties in private conversations. In other words I offered blessings not for their sense gratification, but for the exact opposite: the giving up of any activity not pleasing to Krishna. I referred to them as "devoted souls" because I do not believe that a person genetically wired for homosexuality is necessarily "bestial" or "demonic" as some apparently feel.

Irrefutable history shows us that many sincere souls born with a homosexual orientation have struggled sincerely to serve Srila Prabhupada's mission, and to awaken their dormant love for Krishna, despite an often heavy private and social burden. I cannot see such souls, as some apparently do, as disgusting freaks, willfully and obscenely offending God and nature by their genetic makeup. I am well aware of Srila Prabhupada's statements on this matter and I am confident that a mature, thorough knowledge of Prabhupada's preaching content and style makes possible a more moderate interpretation of those statements. I feel that I am well prepared to logically defend this view though I will not belabor it here.

I also do not go to the other extreme of denying that homosexuality, in some ways, is problematic within a spiritual society. The special burden of devotees born with this condition can only be fully eliminated by their own spiritual enlightenment.

In the last paragraph of my letter, I said: "By such true spiritual love, may they always be, each for the other, a source of spiritual inspiration and happiness. May their relationship lead them, patiently and steadily, back to our real home in the spiritual world, where all relationships become eternal and perfect."

I believed that devotees would recognize the language of true spiritual love as referring to pure Krishna consciousness, far beyond the bodily concept of life, far above any form of sexuality. And clearly a relationship that leads people back to the spiritual world must be a relationship which, through genuine devotion and sacrifice, has become fully pleasing to Krishna.

Not a word in my letter addresses current social or political issues related to homosexuality. Not a word in my letter claims a legal status for homosexual couples, be it marriage or civil union. As a Vaishnava teacher, not as a political operative, nor as a renegade policy maker, I prayed to Krishna that He guide two sincere souls to His lotus feet.

That I expressed this sincere wish in a manner that was not sufficiently sensitive to the concerns of other sincere Vaishnavas, I admit. I truly regret this failing on my part. However, that I acted with political motives, I vehemently deny.

Let us take this situation as an opportunity to earnestly discuss how we may best preserve our sacred principles: both our moral rigor as well as our deep compassion.

With best wishes,

Your servant,

Hridayananda das Goswami

[bhaktatraveler]

 

Yes, you will justify whatever Prabhupada did as "doing the best with a bad bargain" - even when ultimately such a move caused a lot of problems for our movement (like with K-swami and Bhavs), but you will not give ANY benefit of a doubt to a simple email Hridayananda Swami sent to a couple of congregational members for encouragement... you are obviously blind and prejudiced.

Different times, places and circumstances. Neither is (he) even a guru! let alone to be put in any way or form on the same level as comparable Srila Prabhupada's action? That you would in the same breath compare the two makes me vomit!!!!!

 

RCB

[bhaktatraveler]

 

Srila Prabhupada had compassion and tremendous faith in the purifying power of the holy name. That is why he did not hesitate to use very degraded people for very important jobs in his movement. That strategy did not always produce good results, but I can appreciate Prabhupada's compassion for these people.

 

Some people here show very little compassion, just like the Bible influenced primitives who think all gay people should be stoned to death. That is un-Vedic, and un-Vaishnava.

 

I do not think that gay marriages are something our society should embrace with open arms. But I also do not want such people to be treates as untouchables. ANYONE can practice Krsna consciousness and ALL should be encouraged to do so. That is what H.S was doing in this email.

 

Prabhupada said homosex is OUTSIDE of DVD, untouchables. But WHO IS SAYING an untouchable can not practice devotion as best as posible?????? In you mind only.

 

RCB

[bhaktatraveler]

 

There were plenty of other choices as Prabhupada had a lot of disciples to chose from. Perhaps he did not see homosexual background of his disciples as very dangerous. He certainly did not make a very big deal out of it.

 

 

OH MY GOD! Have you not searched homosex on the folio? Have you not read these results? Please show homosex minimaztion, as to be not so important a concideration. No not there! I have seen and so have others that Prabhupada even periodically had a hard time referenceing the subject.

 

No problem with it?

 

RCB

[Kulapavana]

 

Different times, places and circumstances. Neither is Diarrhea-Honda even a guru! let alone to be put in any way or form on the same level as comparable Srila Prabhupada's action? That you would in the same breath compare the two makes me vomit!!!!!

 

 

It would appear that for these two individuals Hridayananda swami is some sort of an authority figure who tries to encourage them in spiritual life. Hence the comparison. Jumping to conclusions is your act.

[Kulapavana]

 

OH MY GOD! Have you not searched homosex on the folio? Have you not read these results? Please show homosex minimaztion, as to be not so important a concideration. No not there! I have seen and so have others that Prabhupada even periodically had a hard time referenceing the subject.

 

No problem with it?

 

RCB

 

Why then did he give sannyasa to an openly homosexual disciple like Kirtananda? how about Bhavs? That guy was a homosexual gigolo before he joined... Prabhupada made them into leaders of his movement and gave them sannyasa. And you are freaking out because Hridayananda send a blessing to some gay people?

[Sonic Yogi]

 

Why then did he give sannyasa to an openly homosexual disciple like Kirtananda? how about Bhavs? That guy was a homosexual gigolo before he joined... Prabhupada made them into leaders of his movement and gave them sannyasa. And you are freaking out because Hridayananda send a blessing to some gay people?

 

No.

He was a "reformed" homo, not an "Openly" homo.

Don't try to say that Prabhupada gave any position to any "openly" or practicing homosexual.

That would be just wrong and you should know that by know.

[bhaktatraveler]

 

So you are saying that SP had no idea how the money was collected by Gurukripa and others? That nobody warned him that money was being collected by crooked means? That is not what I heard from those who were close to these issues. That he thought vast sums of money were collected even as the numbers of books distributed by these people could not account for the profits?

 

Interesting...

 

 

Prabhupāda: Devotees is... I have already explained. We are all devotees. Past condition, we are all devotees. We are not, we do not belong to this varṇāśrama. I have already told you. Suppose I am mopping. So that does not mean I am mopper. But I am teaching how to mop. This is our position.

Parivrājakācārya: So the students, also, they must all be devotees.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Devotees are... That is our life and soul.

Satsvarūpa: And the idea is that after they've finished their schooling, they would take part in ISKCON, preaching in some way as vaiśya or...

Prabhupāda: Yes. This preaching is also required, to make the groundwork. Because nobody's taking care. Just like some of the devotees, great devotees, they took the profession of becoming thief. They, in South India, it was done so. They took the profession of becoming thief. So a devotee is a thief? But he took. They took it. Because nobody was paying. So they organized a plundering party. "Plunder all these big men." Just like the politicians do. There is history. Yes. So even up to the point to become a thief, devotees took it. Yes. And the gopīs, even up to the point of becoming prostitute—for Kṛṣṇa. So for Kṛṣṇa's sake we have to accept any nonsense type of business. Or on the highest grade. Anything. But for Kṛṣṇa we have to do that.

Hṛdayānanda: So, Prabhupāda, in our temples, we have so many devotees. Should the devotees...?

Prabhupāda: They should be engaged.

Hṛdayānanda: Should they be trained in a particular...?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Those who are not able to preach or to do other things, they must go to the plough department, agriculture.

Hṛdayānanda: Those who cannot preach.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Those who are less educated, not very much expert in preaching, they must be acting as kṣatriya or vaiśya, or as śūdra.

Hṛdayānanda: And sometimes...

Prabhupāda: :Not he's śūdra. Always remember that. But he has to act to fulfill the, fill up the gap. Proxy.

[bhaktatraveler]

 

It would appear that for these two individuals Hridayananda swami is some sort of an authority figure who tries to encourage them in spiritual life. Hence the comparison. Jumping to conclusions is your act.

 

Are you on a merrily-go-around? I quoted you, but didn't jump on with you! That he is guru to homo's is a foregone conclusions. Srila Prabhupada condemed homosex, but accepted REFORMED fags/persons as desciples. the opperative word here is reformed. Not that they were fallen and Prabhupada them gave 'marrage' sanction!

 

And to compare all gurus as one in qualification is nuts. Just like when Nanda Maharaja had a big fire sacrifice he did not invite the lesser qualified brahmans, though they too were brahmanins.

 

RCB

[bhaktatraveler]

 

No.

He was a "reformed" homo, not an "Openly" homo.

Don't try to say that Prabhupada gave any position to any "openly" or practicing homosexual.

That would be just wrong and you should know that by know.

 

And that's the rub, Kula speaks pure poison on this subject.

 

RCB

[andy108]

It appears H "Swami" had this letter carefully crafted and planned out from the get-go so as to be able to claim plausible denial, and keep everyone that matters to his Prabhupada Vani Minimization Campaign assuaged and captured by his sophistry. The Iskconers stay put frozen like deer in the headlights of his Equivocally ambiguous non position, and the queers feel encouraged that they are fine the way they are, no need for change, and Krsnaloka is already attained.

 

The only people who see through this charlatans charade are the few, the proud, the impotent, the pundits with no DVD community. But at least we verbally lambaste him with flare and gusto.

[Sonic Yogi]

 

Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 3.20.26

 

pāhi māḿ paramātmaḿs te

 

preṣaṇenāsṛjaḿ prajāḥ

 

tā imā yabhituḿ pāpā

 

upākrāmanti māḿ prabho

 

SYNONYMS

 

pāhi — protect; mām — me; parama-ātman — O Supreme Lord; te — Your; preṣaṇena — by order; asṛjam — I created; prajāḥ — living beings; tāḥ imāḥ — those very persons; yabhitum — to have sex; pāpāḥ — sinful beings; upākrāmanti — are approaching; mām — me; prabho — O Lord.

 

TRANSLATION

 

Lord Brahmā, approaching the Lord, addressed Him thus: My Lord, please protect me from these sinful demons, who were created by me under Your order. They are infuriated by an appetite for sex and have come to attack me.

 

PURPORT

 

It appears here that the homosexual appetite of males for each other is created in this episode of the creation of the demons by Brahmā. In other words, the homosexual appetite of a man for another man is demoniac and is not for any sane male in the ordinary course of life.

[andy108]

 

And that's the rub, Kula speaks pure poison on this subject.

 

RCB

 

You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink.

 

You can lead a whore to culture but you can't make her think.

 

You can lead a guy to the Acarya but you can't force the link.

[Kulapavana]

 

Prabhupāda: Yes. This preaching is also required, to make the groundwork. Because nobody's taking care. Just like some of the devotees, great devotees, they took the profession of becoming thief. They, in South India, it was done so. They took the profession of becoming thief. So a devotee is a thief? But he took. They took it. Because nobody was paying. So they organized a plundering party. "Plunder all these big men." Just like the politicians do. There is history. Yes. So even up to the point to become a thief, devotees took it. Yes. And the gopīs, even up to the point of becoming prostitute—for Kṛṣṇa. So for Kṛṣṇa's sake we have to accept any nonsense type of business. Or on the highest grade. Anything. But for Kṛṣṇa we have to do that.

 

Yes, that was the practice: end justifies the means. And this approach had very serious consequences for our movement. Very bad consequences.

[Sonic Yogi]

 

Yes, that was the practice: end justifies the means. And this approach had very serious consequences for our movement. Very bad consequences.

Not really.

That stuff has all blown over.

What is holding back ISKCON now is the enemy within.

 

There are no legal issues challenging ISKCON today because of some dirty money that filtered in.

 

The only thing holding back the KC movement is internal squabbling and splintering due to lack of cooperation.

 

You keep trying to blow these old things out of proportion.

These things are big problems only in your mind.

 

They really aren't any kind of legal issues facing the movement today.

 

Fact is that the KC movement is never going to become mainstream in today's scientific world.

 

The KC movememt is a cult and always will be a cult for a counterculture of people who drop out of the mainstream society.

[Kulapavana]

 

Srila Prabhupada condemed homosex, but accepted REFORMED fags/persons as desciples. the opperative word here is reformed. Not that they were fallen and Prabhupada them gave 'marrage' sanction!

 

 

Were do you see Hridayananda praising homosex? Did he initiate these guys? So what is your basic malfunction?

 

As to the Mott Street boys being EVER reformed is an open question. Bhavs was never reformed either and the Mayapur shooting incident was caused by him punking a local kid - that is based not on official Iskcon legend but on the testimony of people who were there at the time. Perhaps Prabhupada did not know about their homosexual exploits after initiation, but I doubt it. These guys had a lot of enemies who knew what was going on and who had direct access to SP.

 

Again, I see that as the principle of 'end justifies the means'. You condemn theft, you condemn homosexuality, but under some circumstances you give it sanction. Did Prabhupada not tell some gay disciple (Umapati?) to stick to one boyfriend and practice KC? If so, what is your problem with Hridayananda's blessing?

[Sonic Yogi]

 

Did Prabhupada not tell some gay disciple (Umapati?) to stick to one boyfriend and practice KC? ?

 

That is hearsay, undocumented rumor and has nothing legitimate to support that claim.

 

It is one of them "Prabhupada said" stories that there is no verifiable evidence of.

It's just an ISKCON rumor.

[bhaktatraveler]

 

Yes, that was the practice: end justifies the means. And this approach had very serious consequences for our movement. Very bad consequences.

 

Not the approach, which is explained by Prabhupada as OK. It was the practisioners.

 

RCB